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Topical Vitamin C


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#1 porthose

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 12:26 AM


a couple of months back LEF published an article on Topical C so I decided to purchase cheap ascorbic acid powder and mix it into the daily face cream that I've been using. I also mix ingredients from Skin Actives Scientific but this is a separate cream and doesn't contain Vit C.

what ive noticed is that my skin is definitely softer but as to whether it appears to reduce wrinkles etc, i haven't noticed anything. maybe i haven't been using it long enough...?

anybody had any experience with topical vit c use? did anyone read the article from LEF? i get the hard copy magazine but its also freely available from the LEF site.

thanks.

#2 immortali457

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 03:00 AM

That was a good article from LEF. I make my own vitamin C serum as well. Can you list the ingredients and amounts for your serum?

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#3 MissM

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 03:11 AM

That is interesting that you make your own face cream with C. Do you use a liquid C? Years ago (in the late 80's, I think), a Canadian Company asked for volunteers to test a C serum. I did it, and can honestly say that it improved my skin and (I thought) made me look younger. I think the product wound up being called Cellex C, which is very expensive now. What is your C recipe?



That was a good article from LEF. I make my own vitamin C serum as well. Can you list the ingredients and amounts for your serum?



#4 Ben

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 10:55 AM

I believe that topical vit-c is mainly a preventative and that it doesn't really make your skin better in the short term, rather it prevents it from getting worse. I believe I remember Frederick mentioning something about if you have the Vit-c in high enough a concentration it will be acidic enough to stimulate collagen production.

#5 JLL

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 11:10 AM

I did an experiment with SkinCeuticals' C+E ferulic acid some time ago but didn't really see any noticeable results. Then I read some more about topical vitamin C in a book and decided to try it again. For some reason when I ordered a set of 6 sample bottles on eBay I got two sets, so now I have enough to last for months. But it is quite expensive, so custom topicals is really the way to go, unless you have extra cash lying around.

Here's a quote from the blog post:

Reading the book, however, has re-sparked my interest. The evidence for the anti-aging benefits of topical vitamin C is much more positive than I had thought. Below is a compilation of the beneficial effects of ascorbic acid on the skin:

* Increases the transcription rate of DNA in vitro
* Increases fibroblast proliferation by a factor of four to six in vitro
* Doubles collagen synthesis of fibroblasts in vitro
* Has anti-inflammatory properties in vitro
* Enhances collagen production (type I and III) in vivo
* Protects from UV-induced photodamage and skin cancers in vivo
* Reduces uneven pigmentation in vivo


In other words, topical vitamin C is able to both prevent and reverse photoaging, including wrinkles.


See the link for an impressive image of reversing photoaging with vitamin C.

#6 Eva Victoria

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 11:29 AM

a couple of months back LEF published an article on Topical C so I decided to purchase cheap ascorbic acid powder and mix it into the daily face cream that I've been using. I also mix ingredients from Skin Actives Scientific but this is a separate cream and doesn't contain Vit C.

what ive noticed is that my skin is definitely softer but as to whether it appears to reduce wrinkles etc, i haven't noticed anything. maybe i haven't been using it long enough...?

anybody had any experience with topical vit c use? did anyone read the article from LEF? i get the hard copy magazine but its also freely available from the LEF site.

thanks.


I have my own Vit-C serum that I have perfected for 5 years and have used for 7 years every morning. I use 10-20% Ascorbic Acid and the PH is 3. It is formulated with Nano Vitamin E and lately with some peptides and other anti-oxidants.
I have noticed clearing of the skin and firmer skin through these years.

But I still believe the best one can do for their skin is to use a sunscreen every morning.

#7 kismet

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 07:04 PM

I did an experiment with SkinCeuticals' C+E ferulic acid some time ago but didn't really see any noticeable results. Then I read some more about topical vitamin C in a book and decided to try it again. For some reason when I ordered a set of 6 sample bottles on eBay I got two sets, so now I have enough to last for months. But it is quite expensive, so custom topicals is really the way to go, unless you have extra cash lying around.

Every once in a while I'm close to jumping the gun on DIY C-E or C-E-Ferulic sample bottles, but this article has scared the hell out of me; I don't want to waste money on oxidised vitamin C which could actually harm my skin! I'm not sure how problematic it really is, there's no data on pubmed, it's just mechanistic speculation... but I'm considering buying the expensive original formulation.
I'm not sure if Fredrik still uses the sample bottles from e-bay?

#8 nancyd

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 11:06 PM

I think adding vitamin c powder to a face cream wouldn't work because the ph level wouldn't be low enough to penetrate into the skin.

I heard it's best to make your own vitamin c serum to ensure that it's fresh. I'm going to try just using l-ascorbic acid crystals with distilled water and making this daily. The crystals will make the ph low enough and if it's made daily nothing else is needed as a preservative. I read about this on another board.

Edited by nancyd, 13 June 2009 - 11:11 PM.


#9 JLL

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 02:41 PM

I did an experiment with SkinCeuticals' C+E ferulic acid some time ago but didn't really see any noticeable results. Then I read some more about topical vitamin C in a book and decided to try it again. For some reason when I ordered a set of 6 sample bottles on eBay I got two sets, so now I have enough to last for months. But it is quite expensive, so custom topicals is really the way to go, unless you have extra cash lying around.

Every once in a while I'm close to jumping the gun on DIY C-E or C-E-Ferulic sample bottles, but this article has scared the hell out of me; I don't want to waste money on oxidised vitamin C which could actually harm my skin! I'm not sure how problematic it really is, there's no data on pubmed, it's just mechanistic speculation... but I'm considering buying the expensive original formulation.
I'm not sure if Fredrik still uses the sample bottles from e-bay?


But the expensive original formulation is the same as the sample bottles, right? In any case, most of the sample bottles I got in my first order were oxidized based on the color of the liquid, so I'm not sure buying the original is going to reduce the risk. In fact, I think the risk of oxidation is greater when you buy a big bottle instead of small samples, because you'll be opening it a lot.

#10 immortali457

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 03:18 PM

I did an experiment with SkinCeuticals' C+E ferulic acid some time ago but didn't really see any noticeable results. Then I read some more about topical vitamin C in a book and decided to try it again. For some reason when I ordered a set of 6 sample bottles on eBay I got two sets, so now I have enough to last for months. But it is quite expensive, so custom topicals is really the way to go, unless you have extra cash lying around.

Every once in a while I'm close to jumping the gun on DIY C-E or C-E-Ferulic sample bottles, but this article has scared the hell out of me; I don't want to waste money on oxidised vitamin C which could actually harm my skin! I'm not sure how problematic it really is, there's no data on pubmed, it's just mechanistic speculation... but I'm considering buying the expensive original formulation.
I'm not sure if Fredrik still uses the sample bottles from e-bay?


But the expensive original formulation is the same as the sample bottles, right? In any case, most of the sample bottles I got in my first order were oxidized based on the color of the liquid, so I'm not sure buying the original is going to reduce the risk. In fact, I think the risk of oxidation is greater when you buy a big bottle instead of small samples, because you'll be opening it a lot.


From reading about Skinceuticals CE Ferulic on other forums, it is hard to tell what exactly is the truth or not regarding the color/oxidation of this serum.
I've read that Skinceuticals says the yellowing in their serum is o.k. and still effective. Just another reason to brew your own.

Edited by immortali457, 14 June 2009 - 03:19 PM.


#11 pizzatheorem

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 04:10 PM

I got obsessed with making my own C+E+ferulic serum. I had to change my brand of vitamin E to something without red palm oil as that causes the whole serum to yellow substantially. After studying the patent ( http://www.patentsto...4/fulltext.html ) I eventually produced a serum with the proper concentration of actives as well as having a pleasing viscosity, fragrance and colour. I chose to follow the patent quite faithfully since some people have reported favourable results with skinceuticals' formulation. Anyway, here's what I put in mine:

distilled water ~50%
ethoxydiglycol 20% (water miscible solvent for vitamin E)
propylene glycol 10% (solvent for ferulic acid)
ascorbic acid (ultrafine mesh) 15%
vitamin E (mixed tocopherols) 1%
ferulic acid 0.8%
NaH (sodium hyaluronate) 0.2%
panthenol 1% (moisturizing -very sticky stuff!)
preservative (I use a mixture of phenoxyethanol and thylhexylglycerin) 0.7%
polysorbate 80 1% (emulsifier)
fragrance (I use grapefruit essential oil) a few drops to mask the smell of ethoxydiglycol

If you have the patience to read the patent, I think you'll find that this is pretty darned close to their "preferred embodiment". It has cost a little time and money to get to this point, but now the cost should be only a few dollars per batch (I make 30mL per month) as opposed to $100+ for the skinceuticals formulation.

#12 immortali457

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 04:47 PM

Nice serum pizza.....this is another one that looks promising. I might try it eventually.

http://www.bulkactiv.../ceferulic2.htm

#13 pizzatheorem

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 07:26 PM

Nice serum pizza.....this is another one that looks promising. I might try it eventually.

http://www.bulkactiv.../ceferulic2.htm


John at bulkactives is a helpful guy with good prices. (notably ferulic acid -- compare with skinactives) That gelmaker plus stuff really does what it says. Not only is it a good emulsifier, but a small amount substantially thickens solutions. I was unable to get it to emulsify the vitamin E without unduly thickening the solution so I used polysorbate 80 to emulsify instead. Of course the last thing I discovered in my trial-and-error was that I could dissolve the vitamin E in the ethoxydiglycol in a separate phase, practically obviating the need for an emulsifier altogether, although I still use one just in case.

#14 miklu

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 11:32 PM

...Then I read some more about topical vitamin C in a book and decided to try it again...

See the link for an impressive image of reversing photoaging with vitamin C.


From the highlight on his moustache, it's painfully obvious that the difference is almost entirely due to lighting conditions. Assessing effectiveness of photoage reversal is best done with UV photography, as in here.

#15 JLL

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 06:55 AM

...Then I read some more about topical vitamin C in a book and decided to try it again...

See the link for an impressive image of reversing photoaging with vitamin C.


From the highlight on his moustache, it's painfully obvious that the difference is almost entirely due to lighting conditions. Assessing effectiveness of photoage reversal is best done with UV photography, as in here.


Hmm, perhaps you are correct.

#16 kismet

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 06:38 PM

But the expensive original formulation is the same as the sample bottles, right? In any case, most of the sample bottles I got in my first order were oxidized based on the color of the liquid, so I'm not sure buying the original is going to reduce the risk.

I think the biggest down-side of samples is that they will be exposed to heat during shipping and no one knows how they were stored beforehand, while the original formulation will have been stored in a dark and cold place if you buy it from a pharmacy (if the people over at the pharmacy are not stupid, that is).
What colour did they have?

In fact, I think the risk of oxidation is greater when you buy a big bottle instead of small samples, because you'll be opening it a lot.

I don't get that argument myself! They say the sample bottles get oxidised quickly because more area is exposed to oxygen. Makes sense. On the other hand, they get less exposure to oxygen over time, because you open one after another and use them up quickly. The impact of area vs time can't be that much bigger? At first I thought there should be no difference. Maybe there is no difference after all and the only downside to samples is that their first owner might have screwed up (which I believe is very likely if you buy from e-bay).

If you have the patience to read the patent, I think you'll find that this is pretty darned close to their "preferred embodiment". It has cost a little time and money to get to this point, but now the cost should be only a few dollars per batch (I make 30mL per month) as opposed to $100+ for the skinceuticals formulation.

How do you store it and for how long? What colour does it have? Did you experience any changes? Does it worsen acne if you happen to know?

Edited by kismet, 15 June 2009 - 06:42 PM.


#17 niner

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 06:55 PM

Thanks for the formulation info, pizzatheorem! It's the most complicated one I've seen, but I bet it rocks.

I have also bought CE-ferulic off of Ebay, and had the same problem of yellowed solution. After thinking about it, you have to wonder, where do the Ebay vendors get the stuff? From dermatologists who are discarding it because it's too old? Screw that. I'm going to make my own. It's cheaper than the samples anyway, and that way I'll know it's fresh.

#18 pizzatheorem

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 08:22 PM

How do you store it and for how long? What colour does it have? Did you experience any changes? Does it worsen acne if you happen to know?

The serum is a very, very light yellow colour similar to young coconut water or perhaps white grapefruit juice. This is due to the oil from the vitamin E capsule (mixed tocopherols) I used. I had to omit tocotrienols since it is difficult to find them without red palm oil = dark yellow serum. I store it at room temperature in a brown glass dropper bottle similar to the skinceuticals one. I came up with this formulation two weeks ago and have been using it once or twice a day since then. The colour has stayed the same. If I notice any yellowing I will store it in the fridge, though I don't expect any as it is so fresh, especially compared to stale ebay samples of skinceuticals stuff.
Before using this I was dissolving ascorbic acid in a water/glycerin mixture and applying that nightly. I did this for a few weeks, but hated the feel of it. I vastly prefer my current serum as it smells nice, feels nice and seems to make my skin slightly smoother. I've not noticed any reduction in fine lines, but I've only been using a C serum for around a month. To answer your last question, no I have not found that it worsens acne. If anything, my skin looks clearer, though I don't have an acne problem, just the occasional zit here or there.

Thanks for the formulation info, pizzatheorem! It's the most complicated one I've seen, but I bet it rocks.

No problem! The beauty of DIY serums is the piles cash you save for an analogous product and a guarantee of freshness. I'm now contemplating making another version with olive leaf extract and/or tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate (fat soluble!)

Edited by pizzatheorem, 15 June 2009 - 08:23 PM.


#19 NDM

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 04:29 PM

don't you get the same effect, but without the hassle of preparing a topical solution, from just ingesting 4 g of vit C daily in four evenly split doses? Since that amount way exceeds the RDA, there should be plenty of C available to work on the skin...

#20 happy lemon

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 04:48 PM

Hi pizzatheorem,

May you convert the % of the ingredients of your recipe into cc or ml or grams?

Thx!

#21 immortali457

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 07:23 PM

don't you get the same effect, but without the hassle of preparing a topical solution, from just ingesting 4 g of vit C daily in four evenly split doses? Since that amount way exceeds the RDA, there should be plenty of C available to work on the skin...


http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=281626

#22 kismet

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 07:29 PM

don't you get the same effect, but without the hassle of preparing a topical solution, from just ingesting 4 g of vit C daily in four evenly split doses? Since that amount way exceeds the RDA, there should be plenty of C available to work on the skin...

Yes and no. You will get some of that effect (and all the sides if there are any and megadosing of vitamin C remains of disputed value and safety). But considering that most of us are vitamin C-replete or actually taking mega-doses every day, no, there won't be much improvement over this. Personally I would have loved to see vitamin C and E baseline levels compared to the SPF achieved in those C E Ferulic studies, but there is no such data (but some other study hinted at this very effect which is why I'm so sure of it). The effect will be lower in vitamin C replete individuals but I'm pretty sure that it won't be null.

Taking topicals to target topical tissues is really, really the best and first way to go for obvious pharmacokinetic-efficacy-safety-and-common-sense reasons.  :|w

Edited by kismet, 16 June 2009 - 08:33 PM.


#23 pizzatheorem

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 08:08 PM

@ happy lemon

ingredients:

distilled water 15g
ethoxydiglycol 6g (water miscible solvent for vitamin E)
propylene glycol 3g (solvent for ferulic acid)
ascorbic acid (ultrafine mesh) 4.5g
vitamin E (mixed tocopherols) 0.3g
ferulic acid 0.24g
NaH (sodium hyaluronate) 0.06g
panthenol 0.3g (moisturizing -very sticky stuff!)
preservative (I use Euxyl PE 9010) 0.21g
polysorbate 80 0.3g (emulsifier)
fragrance (I use grapefruit essential oil) a few drops to mask the smell of ethoxydiglycol

here's how I make it:

phase 1
Thoroughly mix the panthenol into the water. Sprinkle the NaH onto the panthenol/water mixture. Allow one hour to dissolve.

phase 2
Dissolve the ferulic acid in the propylene glycol. You will have to stir it a lot and/or apply gentle heat. Use a double boiler or similar set up.

phase 3
Add the vitamin E to the ethoxydigycol. Stir until properly blended.

Finally, add the ascorbic acid to the water phase, stir until completely dissolved. Combine the three phases, add the preservative, add the polysorbate 80 and stir vigorously applying gentle heat if necessary to properly homogenize the serum. Add the fragrance to your preference. If necessary filter through gauze or something similar to remove any globs of undissolved polysorbate 80. The yield should be around 30g, but may be a little less depending on the amount of mechanical loss incurred.

A final note: it is useful to have a scale with 0.01 gram precision such as this, as well as a number of inexpensive glass vessels (I found some cheap 50mL beakers at a local surplus store) and stirring rods, pipettes, etc...

Edited by pizzatheorem, 16 June 2009 - 08:12 PM.


#24 happy lemon

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 01:36 PM

Pizzatheorem,

Thx a lot!

However, I worry about the use of propylene glycol.

Any comments?

http://goldenbutterf...ingredients.htm

#25 Ghostrider

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 05:49 PM

@ happy lemon

ingredients:

distilled water 15g
ethoxydiglycol 6g (water miscible solvent for vitamin E)
propylene glycol 3g (solvent for ferulic acid)
ascorbic acid (ultrafine mesh) 4.5g
vitamin E (mixed tocopherols) 0.3g
ferulic acid 0.24g
NaH (sodium hyaluronate) 0.06g
panthenol 0.3g (moisturizing -very sticky stuff!)
preservative (I use Euxyl PE 9010) 0.21g
polysorbate 80 0.3g (emulsifier)
fragrance (I use grapefruit essential oil) a few drops to mask the smell of ethoxydiglycol

here's how I make it:

phase 1
Thoroughly mix the panthenol into the water. Sprinkle the NaH onto the panthenol/water mixture. Allow one hour to dissolve.

phase 2
Dissolve the ferulic acid in the propylene glycol. You will have to stir it a lot and/or apply gentle heat. Use a double boiler or similar set up.

phase 3
Add the vitamin E to the ethoxydigycol. Stir until properly blended.

Finally, add the ascorbic acid to the water phase, stir until completely dissolved. Combine the three phases, add the preservative, add the polysorbate 80 and stir vigorously applying gentle heat if necessary to properly homogenize the serum. Add the fragrance to your preference. If necessary filter through gauze or something similar to remove any globs of undissolved polysorbate 80. The yield should be around 30g, but may be a little less depending on the amount of mechanical loss incurred.

A final note: it is useful to have a scale with 0.01 gram precision such as this, as well as a number of inexpensive glass vessels (I found some cheap 50mL beakers at a local surplus store) and stirring rods, pipettes, etc...


Pizza, thanks for the recipe! Where did you get the ingredients?

#26 kismet

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 06:35 PM

I'm not sure if Fredrik still uses the sample bottles from e-bay?

How are you doing Fredrik? Could you chime in to set me straight?  :|w

Edited by kismet, 17 June 2009 - 06:36 PM.


#27 Fredrik

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 06:45 PM

I'm not sure if Fredrik still uses the sample bottles from e-bay?

How are you doing Fredrik? Could you chime in to set me straight? :|w


Doing fine thank you! I still use samples from ebay. Mine are pretty clear (the phloretin CF more so).

I think the more neurotic posters on imminst :) would benefit from using a vitamin C cream packaged in an airtight aluminum tube instead. La Roche Posay/Biomedic have those in 5-10.5% concentrations. Another Loreal brand (skinceuticals is also Loreal owned), Kiehls, also have a waterless formula packaged in a pump: "Powerful line reducing concentrate 10.5% vitamin C"

#28 pizzatheorem

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 07:03 PM

@ happy lemon, the propylene glycol is used mainly as a solvent for the ferulic acid, but also as a general non-aqueous solvent. From the skinceuticals patent:

"Increasing the concentration of the solvent,both di(ethylene glycol) ethyl ether and 1,2-propanediol, from an amount of 15% (Table 1, compositions 1 4) to an amount of 30% of the weight of the composition (Table 2, composition 6) increased the stability of the ascorbic acid."

We see that the serum is more stable with less water. Hence it is desirable to keep the non-aqueous solvent fraction of the serum at 30%. Ferulic acid is soluble in ethanol so perhaps substitute ethanol in place of propylene glycol if you are concerned.

@ Ghostrider, I got the ingredients from lotioncrafter.com and bulkactives.com. Bulkactives is currently sold out of ferulic acid, but you can get it from skinactives.com (at a much higher price). When I run out, I will probably try to source some of the ingredients locally from chemical suppliers to cut down on shipping costs.

#29 Ghostrider

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 08:08 PM

I'm not sure if Fredrik still uses the sample bottles from e-bay?

How are you doing Fredrik? Could you chime in to set me straight? :|w


Doing fine thank you! I still use samples from ebay. Mine are pretty clear (the phloretin CF more so).

I think the more neurotic posters on imminst :) would benefit from using a vitamin C cream packaged in an airtight aluminum tube instead. La Roche Posay/Biomedic have those in 5-10.5% concentrations. Another Loreal brand (skinceuticals is also Loreal owned), Kiehls, also have a waterless formula packaged in a pump: "Powerful line reducing concentrate 10.5% vitamin C"


Fredrik, are you still using the SkinCeuticals C + E solution or do you make you own serum? If you do, can you also share your ingredient list? I like Pizza's recipe, but since I don't know anything about these ingredients, I think we should all chime in and develop an Imminst C + E recipe :-). I don't have any comments or suggestions on what to change, but want the best solution possible.

#30 Fredrik

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 08:18 PM

I don´t make my own very often. But if I do it´s just a simple solution of distilled water + ascorbic acid. This was used in the early mice studies. If you add alcohol it will act as a penetration enhancer. I´ve used this solution on my hands. I make a new one in a couple of days. Vitamin C oxidizes pretty slowly if kept in the refrigerator (see Pinnells patent). It´s more of a problem for manufacturers because they need a longer shelf life.

I think you should just follow the Skinceuticals patents on C + E ferulic or C+ phloretin + ferulic acid. It´s all there.




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