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Resveratrol is Not a Direct Activator of SIRT1 Enzyme Activity.


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#1 drmz

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 08:25 PM


Beher D, Wu J, Cumine S, Kim KW, Lu SC, Atangan L, Wang M.
Department of Neuroscience, Amgen Inc., One Amgen Center Drive, Thousand Oaks, CA 91320, USA.

Resveratrol is a plant polyphenol capable of exerting beneficial metabolic effects which are thought to be mediated in large by the activation of the NAD(+)-dependent protein deacetylase SIRT1. Although resveratrol has been claimed to be a bona fide SIRT1 activator using a peptide substrate (Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 peptide substrate), recent reports indicate that this finding might be an experimental artifact and need to be clarified. Here, we show that: (i) the Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 peptide is an artificial SIRT1 substrate because in the absence of the covalently linked fluorophore the peptide itself is not a substrate of the enzyme, (ii) resveratrol does not activate SIRT1 in vitro in the presence of either a p53-derived peptide substrate or acetylated PGC-1alpha isolated from cells, and (iii) although SIRT1 deacetylates PGC-1alpha in both in vitro and cell-based assays, resveratrol did not activate SIRT1 under these conditions. Based on these observations, we conclude that the pharmacological effects of resveratrol in various models are unlikely to be mediated by a direct enhancement of the catalytic activity of the SIRT1 enzyme. In consequence, our data challenge the overall utility of resveratrol as a pharmacological tool to directly activate SIRT1.

#2 maxwatt

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 09:09 PM

The article is in Chem Biol Drug Des. 2009 Oct 20. Epub 2009 Oct 20.

Beher D, Wu J, Cumine S, Kim KW, Lu SC, Atangan L, Wang M.
Department of Neuroscience, Amgen Inc., One Amgen Center Drive, Thousand Oaks, CA 91320, USA.

Resveratrol is a plant polyphenol capable of exerting beneficial metabolic effects which are thought to be mediated in large by the activation of the NAD(+)-dependent protein deacetylase SIRT1. Although resveratrol has been claimed to be a bona fide SIRT1 activator using a peptide substrate (Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 peptide substrate), recent reports indicate that this finding might be an experimental artifact and need to be clarified. Here, we show that: (i) the Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 peptide is an artificial SIRT1 substrate because in the absence of the covalently linked fluorophore the peptide itself is not a substrate of the enzyme, (ii) resveratrol does not activate SIRT1 in vitro in the presence of either a p53-derived peptide substrate or acetylated PGC-1alpha isolated from cells, and (iii) although SIRT1 deacetylates PGC-1alpha in both in vitro and cell-based assays, resveratrol did not activate SIRT1 under these conditions. Based on these observations, we conclude that the pharmacological effects of resveratrol in various models are unlikely to be mediated by a direct enhancement of the catalytic activity of the SIRT1 enzyme. In consequence, our data challenge the overall utility of resveratrol as a pharmacological tool to directly activate SIRT1.

(PMID: 19843076)

This might explain it.

J Biol Chem. 2005 Apr 29;280(17):17187-95. Epub 2005 Mar 4.
Mechanism of human SIRT1 activation by resveratrol.
Borra MT, Smith BC, Denu JM.

Department of Biomolecular Chemistry, University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, Wisconsin 53706, USA.
The NAD+-dependent protein deacetylase family, Sir2 (or sirtuins), is important for many cellular processes including gene silencing, regulation of p53, fatty acid metabolism, cell cycle regulation, and life span extension. Resveratrol, a polyphenol found in wines and thought to harbor major health benefits, was reported to be an activator of Sir2 enzymes in vivo and in vitro. In addition, resveratrol was shown to increase life span in three model organisms through a Sir2-dependent pathway. Here, we investigated the molecular basis for Sir2 activation by resveratrol. Among the three enzymes tested (yeast Sir2, human SIRT1, and human SIRT2), only SIRT1 exhibited significant enzyme activation ( approximately 8-fold) using the commercially available Fluor de Lys kit (BioMol). To examine the requirements for resveratrol activation of SIRT1, we synthesized three p53 acetylpeptide substrates either lacking a fluorophore or containing a 7-amino-4-methylcoumarin (p53-AMC) or rhodamine 110 (p53-R110). Although SIRT1 activation was independent of the acetylpeptide sequence, resveratrol activation was completely dependent on the presence of a covalently attached fluorophore. Substrate competition studies indicated that the fluorophore decreased the binding affinity of the peptide, and, in the presence of resveratrol, fluorophore-containing substrates bound more tightly to SIRT1. Using available crystal structures, a model of SIRT1 bound to p53-AMC peptide was constructed. Without resveratrol, the coumarin of p53-AMC peptide is solvent-exposed and makes no significant contacts with SIRT1. We propose that binding of resveratrol to SIRT1 promotes a conformational change that better accommodates the attached coumarin group.

PMID: 15749705



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#3 health_nutty

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 05:38 AM

Nice find! Interesting indeed.

#4 malbecman

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 09:52 PM

I'll say, interesting indeed. So it looks like resveratrol is an allosteric activator, as they say, eg, its binding to SIRT1 enhances subsequent activation by other true substrates of SIRT1. O2 binding to hemoglobin is the classical example of this type of activation.

So we should keep taking resveratrol but just make sure we have plenty of its normal substrates around as well, yes??

#5 health_nutty

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Posted 24 October 2009 - 10:30 PM

I'll say, interesting indeed. So it looks like resveratrol is an allosteric activator, as they say, eg, its binding to SIRT1 enhances subsequent activation by other true substrates of SIRT1. O2 binding to hemoglobin is the classical example of this type of activation.

So we should keep taking resveratrol but just make sure we have plenty of its normal substrates around as well, yes??


I'm having trouble figuring out what the take home message is for us on this one!

#6 maxwatt

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Posted 25 October 2009 - 10:49 AM

I'll say, interesting indeed. So it looks like resveratrol is an allosteric activator, as they say, eg, its binding to SIRT1 enhances subsequent activation by other true substrates of SIRT1. O2 binding to hemoglobin is the classical example of this type of activation.

So we should keep taking resveratrol but just make sure we have plenty of its normal substrates around as well, yes??


I'm having trouble figuring out what the take home message is for us on this one!


Resveratrol activates Sirt1, but not directly. Resveratrol's action is comparable to a catalyst. Though it may not activate Sirt1 itself, it binds to it in such a way that Sirt1 is activated or activated more strongly in its presence.

#7 veronica

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Posted 25 October 2009 - 08:51 PM

I think that it is very possible that resveratrol might increase longevity not through increased activation of Sirt1 but through some other yet unknown mechanism.

#8 2tender

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Posted 25 October 2009 - 09:19 PM

A positive point well taken, but I dont think its been established that Resveratrol enhances human longevity. That is not to say it cant. I think longevity, better health, looking good as we age, and SIRT1 activation are a combination of factors with regular exercise and ingestion of the right supplements being two of them. Unknown mechanism? Interesting idea, anyone care to comment?

#9 niner

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 04:02 AM

These guys are claiming that resveratrol doesn't work at all with SIRT1. I wonder what GSK/Sirtris would have to say about that? There are already a lot of pieces of data that say that the sirtuin model is right, no? The fact that Beher et al. have a piece that doesn't fit would at this point make me wonder if they are mistaken. They are working in the Dept. of Neuroscience at Amgen; I don't know them by reputation but I would expect them to be well-resourced if nothing else. At any rate, I dunno; it's a head-scratcher. They aren't just saying that resveratrol is an allosteric activator, they are saying it's not an activator at all. They are aware of the problem with the Fluor de Lys assay, so it's not just that. If they are correct, then resveratrol works differently than everyone thinks. I'd like to hear a Sirtris response. I imagine this will be answered in time.

#10 drmz

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 05:21 PM

what does this mean for the in vitro Revgenetics SIRT1 activation test? Does in vitro testing for SIRT1 activation mean anything for in vivo SIRT1 activation?
Can you comment on this Anthony? Or somebody else who is able to analyse this better then me.

From the study
"
The claim of resveratrol being a SIRT1 activator
is likely to be an experimental artifact of the SIRT1 assay that
employs the Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 peptide as a substrate.
"

&

From SIRT1 / Biomol Description.

The SIRT1 Fluorescent Activity Assay is based on the unique Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 Substrate/Developer II combination. The Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 Substrate is a peptide comprising amino acids 379-382 of human p53 (Arg-His-Lys-Lys(Ac)). The assay’s fluorescence signal is generated in proportion to the amount of deacetylation of the lysine corresponding to Lys-382, a known in vivo target of SIRT1 activity8-10. Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 was the substrate deacetylated most efficiently by SIRT1 from among a panel of substrates patterned on p53, histone H3 and histone H4 acetylation sites (see Fig. 2, Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 is labeled ‘p53-382’).


full study attached.....

Attached Files


Edited by drmz, 09 November 2009 - 05:33 PM.


#11 maxwatt

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 05:56 PM

The abstract I quoted above (PMID: 15749705) indicates that resveratrol molecule binds to Sirt1 without activating it, but increases the activation by other substances. NAD+ is an endogenous activator of Sirt1. (see below). It is known that an increased NAD+/NADh ratio correlates with increased life-span, at least in lower organisms.

This is something of a leap, but it suggests that increasing NAD+ will enhance the effect of resveratrol at increasing expression of Sirt1 (and probably other sirtuins.) I have found references to two substances increasing the NAD+/NADH ratio: methylene blue in microgram doses, and a combination of caffeine anl l-serine.

Increased nuclear NAD biosynthesis and SIRT1 activation prevent axonal degeneration.
Araki T, Sasaki Y, Milbrandt J.

Department of Pathology, Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri 63110, USA.
Comment in:

Science. 2004 Aug 13;305(5686):954-5.
Axonal degeneration is an active program of self-destruction that is observed in many physiological and pathological settings. In Wallerian degeneration slow (wlds) mice, Wallerian degeneration in response to axonal injury is delayed because of a mutation that results in overexpression of a chimeric protein (Wlds) composed of the ubiquitin assembly protein Ufd2a and the nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD) biosynthetic enzyme Nmnat1. We demonstrate that increased Nmnat activity is responsible for the axon-sparing activity of the Wlds protein. Furthermore, we demonstrate that SIRT1, a mammalian ortholog of Sir2, is the downstream effector of increased Nmnat activity that leads to axonal protection. These findings suggest that novel therapeutic strategies directed at increasing the supply of NAD and/or Sir2 activation may be effective for treatment of diseases characterized by axonopathy and neurodegeneration.

PMID: 15310905 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



#12 malbecman

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 05:30 PM

Interesting idea, Maxwatt. So I know there is a whole Methylene blue thread over in the "Supplements" forum area. Anyone tried MB and resveratrol? I've certainly been doing the caffeine/resveratrol combo albeit
accidentally. I assume I'm getting enough serine in my diet since its considered a non essential AA....


The abstract I quoted above (PMID: 15749705) indicates that resveratrol molecule binds to Sirt1 without activating it, but increases the activation by other substances. NAD+ is an endogenous activator of Sirt1. (see below). It is known that an increased NAD+/NADh ratio correlates with increased life-span, at least in lower organisms.

This is something of a leap, but it suggests that increasing NAD+ will enhance the effect of resveratrol at increasing expression of Sirt1 (and probably other sirtuins.) I have found references to two substances increasing the NAD+/NADH ratio: methylene blue in microgram doses, and a combination of caffeine anl l-serine.

Increased nuclear NAD biosynthesis and SIRT1 activation prevent axonal degeneration.
Araki T, Sasaki Y, Milbrandt J.

Department of Pathology, Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri 63110, USA.
Comment in:

Science. 2004 Aug 13;305(5686):954-5.
Axonal degeneration is an active program of self-destruction that is observed in many physiological and pathological settings. In Wallerian degeneration slow (wlds) mice, Wallerian degeneration in response to axonal injury is delayed because of a mutation that results in overexpression of a chimeric protein (Wlds) composed of the ubiquitin assembly protein Ufd2a and the nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD) biosynthetic enzyme Nmnat1. We demonstrate that increased Nmnat activity is responsible for the axon-sparing activity of the Wlds protein. Furthermore, we demonstrate that SIRT1, a mammalian ortholog of Sir2, is the downstream effector of increased Nmnat activity that leads to axonal protection. These findings suggest that novel therapeutic strategies directed at increasing the supply of NAD and/or Sir2 activation may be effective for treatment of diseases characterized by axonopathy and neurodegeneration.

PMID: 15310905 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



#13 drmz

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 08:12 AM

what does this mean for the in vitro Revgenetics SIRT1 activation test? Does in vitro testing for SIRT1 activation mean anything for in vivo SIRT1 activation?
Can you comment on this Anthony? Or somebody else who is able to analyse this better then me.

From the study
"
The claim of resveratrol being a SIRT1 activator
is likely to be an experimental artifact of the SIRT1 assay that
employs the Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 peptide as a substrate.
"

&

From SIRT1 / Biomol Description.

The SIRT1 Fluorescent Activity Assay is based on the unique Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 Substrate/Developer II combination. The Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 Substrate is a peptide comprising amino acids 379-382 of human p53 (Arg-His-Lys-Lys(Ac)). The assay’s fluorescence signal is generated in proportion to the amount of deacetylation of the lysine corresponding to Lys-382, a known in vivo target of SIRT1 activity8-10. Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 was the substrate deacetylated most efficiently by SIRT1 from among a panel of substrates patterned on p53, histone H3 and histone H4 acetylation sites (see Fig. 2, Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 is labeled ‘p53-382’).


full study attached.....



Bump...nobody here who can comment on this? I really want to know because if the in vitro test is rather artificial then it's of no use to have a "tested for SIRT1 activation" colum in the resveratrol pricewatch sheets.

Edited by drmz, 14 November 2009 - 08:14 AM.


#14 maxwatt

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 12:15 PM

what does this mean for the in vitro Revgenetics SIRT1 activation test? Does in vitro testing for SIRT1 activation mean anything for in vivo SIRT1 activation?
Can you comment on this Anthony? Or somebody else who is able to analyse this better then me.

From the study
"
The claim of resveratrol being a SIRT1 activator
is likely to be an experimental artifact of the SIRT1 assay that
employs the Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 peptide as a substrate.
"

&

From SIRT1 / Biomol Description.

The SIRT1 Fluorescent Activity Assay is based on the unique Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 Substrate/Developer II combination. The Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 Substrate is a peptide comprising amino acids 379-382 of human p53 (Arg-His-Lys-Lys(Ac)). The assay’s fluorescence signal is generated in proportion to the amount of deacetylation of the lysine corresponding to Lys-382, a known in vivo target of SIRT1 activity8-10. Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 was the substrate deacetylated most efficiently by SIRT1 from among a panel of substrates patterned on p53, histone H3 and histone H4 acetylation sites (see Fig. 2, Fluor de Lys-SIRT1 is labeled ‘p53-382’).


full study attached.....



Bump...nobody here who can comment on this? I really want to know because if the in vitro test is rather artificial then it's of no use to have a "tested for SIRT1 activation" colum in the resveratrol pricewatch sheets.



I think this was clarified in my earlier post HERE
The study I cited indicates resveratrol binds to SIRT1. promoting a conformational change that permits the fluorophone to bind to SIRT1, but also by implication permits other things that activate its P53 deacetylase action to bind to SIRT1. To me the message seems to be that resveratrol indirectly activates SIRT1.

But yes, citing the test to promote a resveratrol product is just marketing. If it contains resveratrol, it should pass the test.

#15 maxwatt

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 12:29 PM

Interesting idea, Maxwatt. So I know there is a whole Methylene blue thread over in the "Supplements" forum area. Anyone tried MB and resveratrol? I've certainly been doing the caffeine/resveratrol combo albeit
accidentally. I assume I'm getting enough serine in my diet since its considered a non essential AA....

see previous post


Actually, you are not getting enough l-serine to have a sufficintly acute effect. According to the study and patents (if there is interest, I'll start another thread in supplements) the amounts used to show the effect were two GRAMS of l-serine to 200 mg of caffeine. Besides increasing the NAD/NADH ratio, the combination speeds the metabolization of alcohol. There is a patent as a hangover preventative, and to help avoid the Asian flush seen in most Japanese men: they turn bright red when they drink. What I've noted from taking the combination is a feeling of well-being, and increased energy and focus. I cannot tell if I metabolize alcohol better, I already do well enough for my purpose in that regard. I've tried both glycine and taurine as substitutes for l-serine, and they do not have the stimulant effect I noted with l-serine.

#16 Blue

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 04:20 PM

The abstract I quoted above (PMID: 15749705) indicates that resveratrol molecule binds to Sirt1 without activating it, but increases the activation by other substances. NAD+ is an endogenous activator of Sirt1. (see below). It is known that an increased NAD+/NADh ratio correlates with increased life-span, at least in lower organisms.

This is something of a leap, but it suggests that increasing NAD+ will enhance the effect of resveratrol at increasing expression of Sirt1 (and probably other sirtuins.) I have found references to two substances increasing the NAD+/NADH ratio: methylene blue in microgram doses, and a combination of caffeine anl l-serine.


"While SIRT1 may play a role in maintaining cell viability under conditions of sufficient energy availability, we found that the SIRT1-activating agent resveratrol could not rescue neurons under excitotoxic conditions, and even exacerbated excitotoxic neuronal death at higher concentrations (data not shown). Similar death-promoting effects of resveratrol and SIRT1 have been observed in models of zinc-induced cytotoxicity (Cai et al. 2006). The latter finding is of interest because zinc is released from excitatory synapses and may contribute to excitotoxicity and neuronal death following ischemia (Choi and Koh 1998). Other studies show that resveratrol can promote apoptosis of tumor cells and some types of normal mitotic cells (Clement et al. 1998; Gao et al. 2002). Consistent with our findings, a recent study showed that heart-specific overexpression of SIRT1 increases the vulnerability of cardiac myocytes to age-dependent apoptosis, whereas lower levels of SIRT1 overexpression were protective, possibly by activating an adaptive stress response pathway (Alcendor et al. 2007). We found that the SIRT1 inhibitors nicotinamide and sirtinol protected neurons against excitotoxicity, a finding consistent with previous data demonstrating neuroprotective effects of sirtuin inhibitors in models of Alzheimer's and Huntington's diseases (Green et al. 2008; Butler and Bates 2006). Pretreatment with resveratrol has been reported to protect neurons against ischemic cell death, apparently by inducing an adaptive stress response (Raval et al. 2006). Our findings suggest that SIRT1 may promote cell survival and be involved in adaptive stress responses under conditions where cells have sufficient NAD+; however, when NAD+ levels are limited, stimulating SIRT1 activity may render cells vulnerable to death."

Our findings indicate that cellular NAD+ bioenergetic state is a critical factor in determining the fate of neuronal survival in excitotoxic and ischemic conditions. Previous studies have supported the neuroprotective potential of treatments that increase cellular energy levels, with creatine being one prominent example (Matthews et al. 1998, 1999; Sullivan et al. 2000; Tarnopolsky and Beal 2001). Here we found that nicotinamide partially preserved cellular NAD+ levels and was effective in protecting neurons against ischemic injury in a mouse stroke model at a dose of 200 mg/kg administered 1 h after the onset of permanent MCAO ischemia. The latter findings are consistent with previous reports of neuroprotective effects of nicotinamide in other models of hypoxic/ischemic brain damage (Sadanaga-Akiyoshi et al. 2003; Yang et al. 2002; Feng et al. 2006). The neuroprotective effects of nicotinamide appear to result from both elevation of NAD+ levels and sirtuin inhibition. Preventing NAD+ depletion, either by increasing its biosynthesis or reducing its consumption, could be an important therapeutic strategy for protecting neurons against ischemia, excitotoxic insults involving DNA damage and age-related metabolic impairment."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2677622/

This suggests that you may not want to be on resveratrol if you suffer any form of large-scale tissue damage (infarct, trauma, infection). Similar to the observed fragility in CR animals. There may also be problem under milder NAD+ deficieny like mild ischemia. On the other hand this cytotoxic effect may be part of the anti-cancer effect of resveratrol. So if you increase NAD+ then you may possible decrease the anti-cancer effect.

Edited by Blue, 15 November 2009 - 04:20 PM.


#17 tunt01

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 05:17 PM

This suggests that you may not want to be on resveratrol if you suffer any form of large-scale tissue damage (infarct, trauma, infection). Similar to the observed fragility in CR animals. There may also be problem under milder NAD+ deficieny like mild ischemia. On the other hand this cytotoxic effect may be part of the anti-cancer effect of resveratrol. So if you increase NAD+ then you may possible decrease the anti-cancer effect.


just seems like confirmation to me, that resveratrol operates under the conditions of hormesis within the mammalian body. too much is a bad thing, and a little dose can induce positive changes. hence, a low dose of resveratrol might be suitable.

#18 2tender

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 11:37 PM

Prophets, glad to see you back here. In your opinion what constitutes a "low dose of Resveratrol"? One gram and under daily? Combined with Quercetin? How are you currently dosing?

#19 tunt01

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 12:47 AM

Prophets, glad to see you back here. In your opinion what constitutes a "low dose of Resveratrol"? One gram and under daily? Combined with Quercetin? How are you currently dosing?


not taking resveratrol currently. i never came to a firm conclusion on what comprises a 'low dose', i did spend time thinking/looking at it. i would defer to someone like maxwatt on a more thoughtful answer. But i remember coming out to something like 50 mg of resveratrol and 125 mg of quercetin (close to 1:2) ratio. i honestly can't remember off-hand which paper I based it on (i was doing it on a mg/kg from some paper).

i think there is like 1-2 mg of resveratrol per glass of red wine. so i was thinking like 500 mg of resveratrol seemed a little too much to me. that a more low dose strategy divided up and taken with meals (~4-5 hrs apart) made more sense. but thats my best guess...

i may come back to it. i've been basically drinking tons of green tea laced w/ rosemary and i get a pretty good buzz off that and just lost interest in resv.

#20 2tender

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 02:14 AM

Thanks for your comment always interested in the opinions of others regarding this. I currently added Quercetin to my regimen with good effect, a little more Resveratrol than Q though.

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#21 maxwatt

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 11:03 AM

Prophets, glad to see you back here. In your opinion what constitutes a "low dose of Resveratrol"? One gram and under daily? Combined with Quercetin? How are you currently dosing?


not taking resveratrol currently. i never came to a firm conclusion on what comprises a 'low dose', i did spend time thinking/looking at it. i would defer to someone like maxwatt on a more thoughtful answer. But i remember coming out to something like 50 mg of resveratrol and 125 mg of quercetin (close to 1:2) ratio. i honestly can't remember off-hand which paper I based it on (i was doing it on a mg/kg from some paper).

i think there is like 1-2 mg of resveratrol per glass of red wine. so i was thinking like 500 mg of resveratrol seemed a little too much to me. that a more low dose strategy divided up and taken with meals (~4-5 hrs apart) made more sense. but thats my best guess...

i may come back to it. i've been basically drinking tons of green tea laced w/ rosemary and i get a pretty good buzz off that and just lost interest in resv.



I do not recommend taking doses throughout the day. There is a circadian rhythm in the body involving CLK genes and NAMPT, which interacts with the effects of resveratrol. Mice dosed at the wrong time of day did not thrive. I recommend taking all your resveratrol in the morning. Taking several small doses will result in a greater area under the curve, but in lower peak blood levels; peak blood level is thought to be important to achieving an effect. Better to take as much at one time as possible.

Too much of anything is not so good. Moderation in all things is ancient advice. But there is no correct answer to what is the proper dose of resveratrol. There appears to be a good deal of genetic polymorphism that affects this. East Asians, for instance, tend to have less efficient enzymes to process resveratrol (and some drugs) and would need a much lower dose than the typical Caucasian to achieve the same effects. We have seen this in higher blood levels for a given dose, as measured by one of our members (hedgehog). Variation in the estrogen receptor means some will experience a significant anti-aromatase action leading perhaps to muscle gain, or joint pain, other people not so much. I've also noted that a lower dose is needed over time to achieve the same results.

That said, I will go out on a limb: anything under 100 to 150 mg is likely to result in nothing but placebo effects. Over 2 grams probably results in no additional benefits for healthy people. 500 mg to 1 gram probably will prove adequate if one is seeking improved mitochondrial function and healthier mitochondria (this will show up in increased endurance, and also in increased strength if one is genetically endowed with sufficient type 2 mitochondria.) You may achieve faster results starting at a higher dose, but should be able to reduce the dose significantly after 6 months to a year. Using a carrier such as Polysorbate-80 can double the effective dose, but it may be more cost effective to just use more of a high-quality pure powder.

On the other hand, we may all grow third eyes after five years. The long-term effects of any dose are unknown.




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