119 replies to this topic

[ken_akiba]

Keeping in mind that women you are talking to are no less nervous than you may help?
For supplement, you might want to try PharmaGaba. It is gaba made in Japan by special process so that it (arguably) crosses BBB. It works for me, sometimes works too well that I feel sleepy.

[Lufega]

I am seeing improvement using P5P the last few days. I think it has implication in social anxiety since it is involved in the production of the relevant neurotransmitters.

From wiki-

Neurotransmitter synthesis

Pyridoxal phosphate-dependent enzymes play a role in the biosynthesis of four important neurotransmitters: serotonin, epinephrine, norepinephrine and gamma-aminobutyric acid[3]. Serine racemase, which synthesizes the neuromodulator D-serine, is also a pyridoxal phosphate-dependent enzyme.

Function in the body

Pyridoxine assists in the balancing of sodium and potassium as well as promoting red blood cell production. It is linked to cardiovascular health by decreasing the formation of homocysteine. Pyridoxine may help balance hormonal changes in women and aid the immune system[citation needed]. Lack of pyridoxine may cause anemia, nerve damage, seizures, skin problems, and sores in the mouth[2].

It is required for the production of the monoamine neurotransmitters serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine and epinephrine, as it is the precursor to pyridoxal phosphate: cofactor for the enzyme aromatic amino acid decarboxylase. This enzyme is responsible for converting the precursors 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) into serotonin and levodopa (L-DOPA) into dopamine, noradrenaline and adrenaline. As such it has been implicated in the treatment of depression and anxiety.[citation needed]

A very good source of pyridoxine is dragon fruit from South East Asia[3][not in citation given]. Pyridoxine is not normally found in plants and plants are not the principal source of this vitamin. This vitamin is made by certain bacteria. Some vegetarians may get adequate pyridoxine simply from eating plants that have traces of soil (like potato skins). Most people get their supply of this vitamin from either milk or meat products.

[Rational Madman]

Getting laid would be substantially superior therapy to SSRIs, in all probability.

This is a rash and possibly dangerous assumption about the etiology of this case. Only a qualified health care professional can make such a diagnosis. If determined to be the proper course of treatment, copulation should occur under clinical supervision and direction.

Your sarcastic response is very telling....
It suggests not only a pervasive insecurity---which probably stems from extensive academic and personal troubles---but a worrying hostility towards the methodologies and evidence-based approaches that physicians successfully rely upon. By diminishing the validity of this approach---which, in effect, encourages troubled visitors to embrace questionable alternative modalities to problems of clinical significance---it seems that you feel that you're vindicating your self-righteous and indignant decision to eschew (or at least selectively adhere to) conventional medical prescriptions, and much to my sincere dismay, go at it mostly alone. Tell me, and with complete candor, how is this working? And honestly, are the effects real or illusory? From what I've gathered, you've made some gains, but are still struggling against the current.

What's more, your attitude is probably driven by a fleeting ego boost that you gain from exaggerating your superficial understanding of complex phenomenons, and enlightening the troubled masses about your novel, but plainly simplistic cures to disorders that can't be reduced to a few comforting explanations, or be sustainably addressed with a few supplements that in most cases, work by activating mood regulatory mechanisms---e.g. placebo effect---that provide relief for short durations, and as a consequence, inadequately address chronic problems. To be sure, there is no harm in seeking solace in a community of pooled wisdom, and I find your efforts to provide well-meaning advice to be laudatory. But, rather than carelessly dispensing advice that might exacerbate (or be of little use) to the problems of posters that bravely---if not desperately---detail their problems, we need to be frank about our limitations, and humbly acknowledge that our fellow travelers are better served by seeking professional advice---even if that experience is painful and takes time to bear fruit. However, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't earnestly endeavor to impart wisdom that we've gained from research and personal experience---because such wisdom can be of an enormous value at times. Rather, we should qualify our advice by reminding our fellow travelers that our wisdom pales in comparison to those that have devoted their lives to the study of the subjects in question, and that they would be best served in placing their trust with such individuals .

Edited by Rol82, 02 May 2010 - 06:49 PM.

[TigerMask]

The Carlson Labs is a fine product; I currently take the Bluebonnet Nutrition brand of manganese.

http://www.iherb.com...caps/14975?at=0

In your opinion, is the Bluebonnet manganese just as good as the Carlson manganese? I wonder if there is a difference between glycinate and bisglycinate.

[chrono]

Your sarcastic response is very telling....

Actually, I was just using a bit of humor to hopefully forestall another deluge of dreary clinical bias. I'm not responding to you because you are continuing to reduce my position to its logical extremes, and I feel no need to defend a position I don't hold. And speaking of telling, thanks for the armchair psychoanalysis.

The OP was aware of the option of clinical care about 50 posts ago, when I asked if he'd seen a doctor. The topic of this thread is social anxiety supplements. Get a grip, and lighten up.

Edited by chrono, 02 May 2010 - 09:49 PM.

[Guacamolium]

Why are we even discussing shit like this when the OP can be succumbing to the positive effects of Axcite. Dude, if I were trained as your coach - I'd have you jog till 7 miles a day, you'd hit the weights at least once a week, and you'd buy whatever "game" book that you thought was best, but I'm not there to coach you dude, not by one post. PM me anything - through biochemistry anything is possible.

[tintinet]

Related thread, maybe?

[nito]

hey guys in terms of anxiety, would l theanine work better than magnesium to lower it?

[Rational Madman]

hey guys in terms of anxiety, would l theanine work better than magnesium to lower it?

It's a matter of personal preference, since both supplements have an antagonistic relationship with NMDA receptors, which should alleviate social anxiety symptoms linked to elevated glutamate activity in certain parts of the brain. Theanine, though, has the additional virtue of increasing cerebral dopamine levels, which may have a mild effect on creativity and verbal fluency. But, neither agent has been extensively studied for the treatment of social anxiety, and because their effects are markedly weaker than prescription medications with similar mechanisms and indications, they're likely to serve only as temporary band aids---rather than cures---to what might be a serious monoamine imbalance.

If you ultimately decide to visit a psychiatrist or a general practitioner, there are several different approaches that might provide relief to your symptoms. Below I'll provide a list of several classes of drugs---and a recommendation for each class---that are either FDA approved, or used off-label for this indication. Based on your personal history, symptoms, and individual research, you can decide which class or drug is most suitable, and if necessary, make a case to your physician.

First, Anticonvulsants: Lyrica
Second, Beta Adrenergic Blockers: Inderal
Third, SSRIs: Zoloft
Fourth, Anti-Psychotics: Geodon
Fifth, Psychostimulants: Adderall
Sixth, Benzodoziapines: Xanax
Seventh, Azapirones: Buspar
Eighth, MAO Inhibitors: Parnate
Ninth, Tricyclics: Pamelor
Tenth, Anaglesics: Ultram

Since depressed levels of testosterone and thyroxine are also implicated in some cases of social anxiety, you could also consider hormone replacement therapy. If blood tests confirm that either hormone is below the reference range of measurement, then I would suggest that you try Armour Thyroid for hypothyroidism, or Androgel for hypogonadism.

Finally, if circumstances will not permit you to seek medical attention, or if you deem it to be unnecessary, then I would suggest beginning an empiric trial with either Inositol (5 to 15 grams), or pyridoxal-5-phospate (50-200 mg). Both are strongly supported anecdotally, but they probably have very few studies---if any---supporting their efficacy for social anxiety.

Edited by Rol82, 04 May 2010 - 12:40 AM.

[chrono]

hey guys in terms of anxiety, would l theanine work better than magnesium to lower it?

L-theanine has more of an immediate/acute impact on mood. For most, magnesium provides a much more subtle improvement over a longer period of time. Though there are scattered reports of some people receiving a much more significant benefit from Mg, I wouldn't expect this.

I take magnesium every night, and L-theanine during the day on an as-needed basis.

[Cless986]

wow didnt know that my little question will get so many helpful answers!!! thanks!
the magnesium is helping a lot, no hands tremors at all maybe the anxiety I still have is normal,
but is easy to get used to it.
I still have one question, I take zinc for my acne and for testosterone (I had two IMPORTANT deficiencies that almost screwed my life), but I saw in a supplement website
that taking zinc along with other supplements can make my body absorb less zinc... I take 50mg of this
I take it along with royal honey and omega 3

[RicardoW]

I don’t think taking supplement such as theanine or taurine before a social encounter will do much for you. You will need a real drug in order to have this kind of positive effect. Maybe serious omega3 or magnesium deficiency (and I think that is quite common) can make some on feel uneasy, but aside from that I don’t think supplements will help much in that kind of situation.



I guess people how are involuntary introvert very often are depressed if you do feel depressed you might need to focus on a solution for this problem. Even though I don’t suffer from depression or social anxiety I’m personally very interested in SAM-e. And this substance do have an effect on depression. My second choice would be a herb that effects testosterone and that’s quite easy to fix really.



I don’t know what evidence there is but personally I do think that tyrosine, L-phenylalanine, DL- phenylalanine when taken for some time do give a pleasurable effect. I would be surprised if someone would try a good dose of tyrosine and say that he/she did not feel any difference.

[Rational Madman]

wow didnt know that my little question will get so many helpful answers!!! thanks!
the magnesium is helping a lot, no hands tremors at all maybe the anxiety I still have is normal,
but is easy to get used to it.
I still have one question, I take zinc for my acne and for testosterone (I had two IMPORTANT deficiencies that almost screwed my life), but I saw in a supplement website
that taking zinc along with other supplements can make my body absorb less zinc... I take 50mg of this
I take it along with royal honey and omega 3

I would remain on the magnesium for a few weeks, and continue to challenge your reactive anxiety by socializing as much as your responsibilities permit. If you succumb to your anxiety, and insulate yourself from the discomfort that may arise from socializing, your anxiety will progressively worsen, and the subsequent treatment will become increasingly difficult. Once this initial investigational period of magnesium use has passed, you should determine if there is a causal link between magnesium use and an attenuation of your symptoms. If after isolating and ruling out alternative independent variables you determine that there is indeed a causal relationship, then the number of possible causes will be greatly reduced, and you may proceed to explore other therapeutic options that may lead to a further improvement in your symptoms.

A positive response to magnesium may be indicative of an inadequate dietary intake---and thus, an unfavorable serum calcium calcium/magnesium ratio, an impairment of inhibitory mechanisms of your brain, or a greater expression of receptors that produce excitatory neurotransmitters such as glutamate---which is sometimes responsible for producing anxious behavior. If you're also suffering from muscle weakness or unexplained fatigue, I would advise that you approach your general practitioner, and request a test for serum levels of magnesium. Due to the prevalence of inadequate dietary intake of this mineral, and because of its relationship with symptoms and disorders related to the nervous system and cardiovascular function, your practitioner will likely comply if your symptoms are suggestive of such a deficiency. In the event of noncompliance, and if you have reason to suspect a deficiency, you should make a conscious effort to temporarily reduce your intake of sources of calcium, and increase your intake of sources magnesium until your symptoms are resolved to your satisfaction.

You may also deem it necessary to try one of several prescription medications that I listed in my previous post---which because of other symptoms and the likelihood of a malfunctioning neural mechanisms, would be advised for achieving the most optimal outcome. If I'm correct in postulating a dysfunction with excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmitter receptors, and if your prescribing physician concurs, I would suggest that you consider use of a drug from the anticonvulsant or benzodeziapine class. Due to the side effect profiles of drugs within each class, and because of their indications, it would behoove you to use lower doses to limit the incidence of side effects. However, most patients respond quite well to both classes, and in spite of the side effects, believe the reduction in social anxiety to be an acceptable trade-off. If for some reason you are unable to secure a drug from either class, then you could resort to the use of supplements with similar mechanisms, but with considerably less powerful effects. The most ideal choices in your case would be L-theanine, DHEA, pregnenolone, niacin, or lithium orotate. The first four (or their metabolites) have a binding affinity and modulatory effect on the Gaba A receptors, while the last is believed to have an antagonistic relationship with receptors that release glutamate.

Edited by Rol82, 06 May 2010 - 04:28 AM.

[winston]

I haven't read every post in this thread so you might have said already, but do you have abnormally poor social skills? That is, if you were to have no anxiety, would you be on the same level as others?
If you have normal social skills than it's more likely that you don't have any rational reason to be socially awkward, which makes a biological cause more likely.

[Cless986]

Ohhh thanks but it seems that no one here answered my
Question about if taking magnesium along with other supplements
Can make your body absorb less...
Another silly question, the first time i took magnesium, i tasted the pill, it was
A strange flavour, kind of liked it but it wasnt horrible either; and after a week of
Taking magnesium daily, today i tasted the pill and i noticed it hadnt any flavour at alll...
Makes me wonder if is posible that when my body needs a nutrient, any food that
Contains the nutrient it will taste better??

[chrono]

Ohhh thanks but it seems that no one here answered my
Question about if taking magnesium along with other supplements
Can make your body absorb less...

I've think that calcium and magnesium compete for absorption. Haven't heard of any others. You could just take it at night when you're not taking other supps, if you have reason to think it's a problem.

[nito]

bach rescue remedy spray works fine for my generalised anxiety actually!

[TigerMask]

Ultram/tramadol is an interesting potential treatment for this. It is an SNRI with opiate receptor activity, as many know.

I enjoy it somewhat, but it can give me tremors (anyone else?). Development of tolerance to the opiate activity of tramadol would be one of the biggest downsides. I'm sure this tolerance develops with tramadol (similar to more traditional opioids), though I could be wrong. High doses can cause seizures to occur.

It does provide a nice mood lift with short-term use. I have no idea what happens when it is used long-term, as far as tolerance and change of effects. It could easily lead to a mental addiction in certain people.

[chrono]

Ultram/tramadol is an interesting potential treatment for this. It is an SNRI with opiate receptor activity, as many know.

I enjoy it somewhat, but it can give me tremors (anyone else?). Development of tolerance to the opiate activity of tramadol would be one of the biggest downsides. I'm sure this tolerance develops with tramadol (similar to more traditional opioids), though I could be wrong. High doses can cause seizures to occur.

It does provide a nice mood lift with short-term use. I have no idea what happens when it is used long-term, as far as tolerance and change of effects. It could easily lead to a mental addiction in certain people.

I've been on tramadol for about 2 years now, 2-3x100mg per day. It's a weak mu receptor agonist, so yes, it feels pretty good. At least at the beginning; I don't feel anything from it any more except pain relief. It has the potential for inducing neuronal apoptosis, and I'm fairly certain that for me, it's produced some subtle yet noticeable memory deficits over time.

I also believe it has one of the longest withdrawal periods of any opioid, up there with methadone? Prescribing opioids for psychological conditions is...progressive, to say the least. I haven't reviewed the literature yet, but I agree that the tolerance to some of its subjective effects might limit its utility. Not sure how this plays out with the SNRI effect.

[medievil]

Treatment Augmentation With Opiates in Severe and Refractory Major Depression
ANDREW L. STOLL, M.D. and STEPHANIE RUETER, B.A.
Belmont, Mass.

Letter to the Editor
To the Editor: Substantial evidence supports the antidepressant efficacy of opiates (1). This report summarizes our open-label experience using the µ-opiate agonists oxycodone or oxymorphone in patients with highly refractory and chronic major depression.
Mr. A was a 44-year-old man with severe and chronic depression. Numerous trials of antidepressants produced only limited benefit. Mr. A also had an extensive history of opiate abuse, and he noted that the only times he ever felt normal and not depressed was during opiate use. Because of the refractory nature of his depressive symptoms and his apparent self-medication with opiates, Mr. A was given a trial of oxycodone under strict supervision. After 18 months of oxycodone treatment (10 mg/day), Mr. A remained in his longest remission from depression without the emergence of opiate tolerance or abuse.
Ms. B was a 45-year-old woman with bipolar disorder and opiate abuse (in remission for 2 years). A trial with standard mood stabilizers had failed, and she had experienced mania with several standard antidepressant drugs. As with Mr. A, Ms. B reported feeling well only when taking opiates, particularly oxymorphone. Oxymorphone (8 mg/day) was thus cautiously added to ongoing lamotrigine therapy (as a mood stabilizer), and she remained well for a minimum of 20 months without drug tolerance or abuse.

Mr. C was a 43-year-old man with chronic major depression that was unresponsive to numerous antidepressants with and without augmentation. Detailed questioning revealed that he once experienced marked antidepressant effects from opiates that he received after a dental procedure. There was no history of opiate abuse, and a cautious trial of oxycodone was initiated. Mr. C experienced a dramatic and gratifying antidepressant response from oxycodone (10 mg t.i.d. for 9 months) without opiate tolerance or abuse.

This report describes three patients with chronic and refractory major depression who were treated with the µ-opiate agonists oxycodone or oxymorphone. All three patients experienced a sustained moderate to marked antidepressant effect from the opiates. The patients described a reduction in psychic pain and distress, much as they would describe the analgesic effects of opiates in treating nocioceptive pain.
Two of the three patients described in this report were previous abusers of opiates. Although the clinical use of opiates in patients with a history of opiate addiction is usually contraindicated, in these cases there was a strong indication that they were self-medicating their mood disorders (2) with illicit opiates. None of the patients abused the opiates, developed tolerance, or started using other illicit substances.

We used oxycodone in three additional patients without histories of opiate abuse. In two of these three patients, oxycodone produced a similar sustained antidepressant effect. Two of these patients experienced mild-to-moderate constipation, and one experienced daytime drowsiness from the opiates. Opiates should be considered a reasonable option in carefully selected patients who are desperately ill with major depression that is refractory to standard therapies.

REFERENCES

Bodkin JA, Zornberg GL, Lukas SE, Cole JO: Buprenorphine treatment of refractory depression. J Clin Psychopharmacol 1994; 15:49–57

Khantzian EJ: Self-regulation and self-medication factors in alcoholism and the addictions: similarities and differences. Recent Dev Alcohol 1990; 8:255–271
http://www.opioids.c...ant/opiate.html

[medievil]

The cognitive and psychomotor effects of morphine in healthy subjects: a randomized controlled trial of repeated (four) oral doses of dextropropoxyphene, morphine, lorazepam and placebo
by
O'Neill WM, Hanks GW, Simpson P, Fallon MT, Jenkins E, Wesnes K
Department of Palliative Medicine,
Bristol Oncology Centre, Bristol, UK.
Pain 2000 Mar; 85(1-2):209-15

ABSTRACT

Ten healthy subjects (four male) of mean age 31 years (range 25-40) took part in a randomized double-blind four-way crossover study to examine the cognitive and psychomotor effects of repeated oral doses of dextropropoxyphene and morphine. Four treatments were compared: dextropropoxyphene napsylate 100 mg, morphine sulphate 10 mg, lorazepam 0.5 mg and placebo. Four doses of each drug were given at 4-h intervals to each subject on four separate study days at least 1 week apart. Cognitive function was assessed using choice reaction time, number vigilance, memory scanning, immediate and delayed word recall, word recognition, picture recognition, critical flicker fusion threshold (CFFT) and subjective measures of alertness, calmness and contentment. Lorazepam impaired the speed of responding on all tasks in which speed was recorded (except digit vigilance) and increased subjective ratings of calmness. Morphine had one major effect, which was to increase the accuracy of responding on the choice reaction time task, at every assessment. Morphine produced some sporadic effects in other tests and an increase in subjective calmness. Dextropropoxyphene impaired performance on choice reaction time and picture recognition. These data show that oral morphine may enhance performance in some measures of cognitive function, whereas dextropropoxyphene (in usual therapeutic doses) seems more likely to cause impairment. Neither opioid has substantial effects on cognition and psychomotor function compared with lorazepam.

Morphine as a smart drug! Not that its a nootropic like everything else, it cant be taken daily just to improve cognition or youll end in trouble, but for some opiates are usefull long term.

Edited by medievil, 11 May 2010 - 12:51 AM.

[Rational Madman]

The cognitive and psychomotor effects of morphine in healthy subjects: a randomized controlled trial of repeated (four) oral doses of dextropropoxyphene, morphine, lorazepam and placebo
by
O'Neill WM, Hanks GW, Simpson P, Fallon MT, Jenkins E, Wesnes K
Department of Palliative Medicine,
Bristol Oncology Centre, Bristol, UK.
Pain 2000 Mar; 85(1-2):209-15

ABSTRACT

Ten healthy subjects (four male) of mean age 31 years (range 25-40) took part in a randomized double-blind four-way crossover study to examine the cognitive and psychomotor effects of repeated oral doses of dextropropoxyphene and morphine. Four treatments were compared: dextropropoxyphene napsylate 100 mg, morphine sulphate 10 mg, lorazepam 0.5 mg and placebo. Four doses of each drug were given at 4-h intervals to each subject on four separate study days at least 1 week apart. Cognitive function was assessed using choice reaction time, number vigilance, memory scanning, immediate and delayed word recall, word recognition, picture recognition, critical flicker fusion threshold (CFFT) and subjective measures of alertness, calmness and contentment. Lorazepam impaired the speed of responding on all tasks in which speed was recorded (except digit vigilance) and increased subjective ratings of calmness. Morphine had one major effect, which was to increase the accuracy of responding on the choice reaction time task, at every assessment. Morphine produced some sporadic effects in other tests and an increase in subjective calmness. Dextropropoxyphene impaired performance on choice reaction time and picture recognition. These data show that oral morphine may enhance performance in some measures of cognitive function, whereas dextropropoxyphene (in usual therapeutic doses) seems more likely to cause impairment. Neither opioid has substantial effects on cognition and psychomotor function compared with lorazepam.

Morphine as a smart drug! Not that its a nootropic like everything else, it cant be taken daily just to improve cognition or youll end in trouble, but for some opiates are usefull long term.

If they were still alive, I'm sure Coleridge and a number of prolific writers from his era would attest to its nootropic value. But, personally, I prefer to use agents that are more activating.

[TigerMask]

If they were still alive, I'm sure Coleridge and a number of prolific writers from his era would attest to its nootropic value. But, personally, I prefer to use agents that are more activating.

Like Oxycodone?

I kid, I kid. Addiction is a terrible, terrible thing that makes using such drugs for any perceived nootropic value akin to psyche suicide. Eventual addiction (both mental and physical) hinders any benefits, and believe me, for many people there are, at least initially, definite mental benefits, at least when it comes to oxycodone or hydrocodone. On the other hand, anything that contains morphine or that is morphine derived (like heroin) is unlikely to have activating nootropic effects for most people, though perhaps the sedation can be nootropic for some. The thebaine derived oxycodone may have certain, albeit short-term, nootropic effects as many find it stimulating or comfortably stimulating -- though others are just as likely to fall asleep on it as they are to accomplish anything worthwhile. Some people, however, are inspired to action when on such opiates -- they may participate in artistic endeavors or set out to accomplish typically mundane tasks. Increased, more enthusiastic socialization is often observed. Once again, this behavior is more often seen with those opiates that are thebaine derived than it is with those that are morphine derived.

Treatment of depression with opiates is bound to be a failure (though I'd like to be proved wrong), simply because (for most people) the dosage will have to be continually raised. And regarding medievils post on the former opiate addict who was treated with 10 mg of oxycodone daily for his depression, I just have to say that that is an extremely low dose for any opiate abuser, and there is also the fact that it wears off after a few hours. For me (for what it's worth), 15 - 20 mg twice a day or maybe 30 - 40 mg once a day would be satisfactory, but that would be too high a dose for the opiate naive. Still, I do not consider this a good treatment plan for most, if not all people; there are just too many risks involved, with the main one being addiction and the need to ramp up the dosage over time once the patients body becomes accustomed to it -- the euphoria, or good feelings, are just a side effect that goes away with time, just like with amphetamines.

Opiates temporarily fix many of my issues, including my nausea, even though nausea is a side effect of such medications for most people. Anyway, as I said before, I do not consider them an acceptable treatment for most people, including me.

[TigerMask]

Ohhh thanks but it seems that no one here answered my
Question about if taking magnesium along with other supplements
Can make your body absorb less...
Another silly question, the first time i took magnesium, i tasted the pill, it was
A strange flavour, kind of liked it but it wasnt horrible either; and after a week of
Taking magnesium daily, today i tasted the pill and i noticed it hadnt any flavour at alll...
Makes me wonder if is posible that when my body needs a nutrient, any food that
Contains the nutrient it will taste better??

It depends on the supplement. Most will not effect magnesium absorption. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is lithium, so you should be fine taking whatever supplements you're taking together with magnesium.

[TheFountain]

The best thing for social anxiety is for people to stop being assholes.

Till that happens I will continue to take Valerian root in extreme circumstances.

[Rational Madman]

If they were still alive, I'm sure Coleridge and a number of prolific writers from his era would attest to its nootropic value. But, personally, I prefer to use agents that are more activating.

Like Oxycodone?

I kid, I kid. Addiction is a terrible, terrible thing that makes using such drugs for any perceived nootropic value akin to psyche suicide. Eventual addiction (both mental and physical) hinders any benefits, and believe me, for many people there are, at least initially, definite mental benefits, at least when it comes to oxycodone or hydrocodone. On the other hand, anything that contains morphine or that is morphine derived (like heroin) is unlikely to have activating nootropic effects for most people, though perhaps the sedation can be nootropic for some. The thebaine derived oxycodone may have certain, albeit short-term, nootropic effects as many find it stimulating or comfortably stimulating -- though others are just as likely to fall asleep on it as they are to accomplish anything worthwhile. Some people, however, are inspired to action when on such opiates -- they may participate in artistic endeavors or set out to accomplish typically mundane tasks. Increased, more enthusiastic socialization is often observed. Once again, this behavior is more often seen with those opiates that are thebaine derived than it is with those that are morphine derived.

Treatment of depression with opiates is bound to be a failure (though I'd like to be proved wrong), simply because (for most people) the dosage will have to be continually raised. And regarding medievils post on the former opiate addict who was treated with 10 mg of oxycodone daily for his depression, I just have to say that that is an extremely low dose for any opiate abuser, and there is also the fact that it wears off after a few hours. For me (for what it's worth), 15 - 20 mg twice a day or maybe 30 - 40 mg once a day would be satisfactory, but that would be too high a dose for the opiate naive. Still, I do not consider this a good treatment plan for most, if not all people; there are just too many risks involved, with the main one being addiction and the need to ramp up the dosage over time once the patients body becomes accustomed to it -- the euphoria, or good feelings, are just a side effect that goes away with time, just like with amphetamines.

Opiates temporarily fix many of my issues, including my nausea, eventhough nausea is a side effect of such medications for most people. Anyway, as I said before, I do not consider them an acceptable treatment for most people, including me.

Since the operational definition of "nootropics" is not clearly established, I choose to define it as any agent that enhances any measure of cognition beyond parameters of statistical significance. However, I should've further qualified my comments, because as you rightly pointed out, not all opiates are created equal. Further, I was basing my statement largely on qualitative evidence---which seems to suggest that opiates exert a positive influence on creativity for certain individuals.

Edited by Rol82, 03 June 2010 - 12:38 AM.

[medievil]

Treatment of depression with opiates is bound to be a failure (though I'd like to be proved wrong), simply because (for most people) the dosage will have to be continually raised.

But does that really occur? Isnt it possible that tolerance just occurs to the euphoric effect, while the antidepressant effect remains? Benzo's also cause a rapid tolerance, altough they allways leave you with a anxiolytic effect wich doesnt fade and indeed they can work for years. An other possibilty is that the antidepressant effect remains only in individial wich may have a flawed endorphin system, like how amphetamine's work long term in ADHD patients. Those case reports indiciate that its indeed a possibility to use opiates as long term treatment, albeit in some cases.
I agree that they arent a suitable treatment for most people, however they could be the life saver for treatment resistant individuals.

Edited by medievil, 03 June 2010 - 04:34 AM.

[chrono]

But does that really occur? Isnt it possible that tolerance just occurs to the euphoric effect, while the antidepressant effect remains?

I think this is quite possible. From what I understand of methadone programs, the theory is that at a certain "maintenance dose" one no longer feels a craving for opiates, even after tolerance to methadone's psychological effects set in. It's possible that depression responds in the same way.

OTOH, the adderall example is also instructive. If I use adderall for, say, two weeks straight, it looses the majority of the motivational component which is a big part of why I take it. When I have my script, I still try to use it in a way that keeps tolerance as low as possible. At least for some people, it seems that opioids may work in this way: the acute psychological effects are what is most helpful.

[TigerMask]

Further, I was basing my statement largely on qualitative evidence---which seems to suggest that opiates exert a positive influence on creativity for certain individuals.

All full opioid agonists (such as oxycodone) notably increase my creativity.

In fact, they increase my creativity and creative output much more than any other drug/supplement. Social anxiety is also greatly improved while under the influence. I still do not recommend these drugs to anyone.

Also of note, Valium improves upon my concentration and may slightly increase creative output by reducing what some call "background noise." It also seems to make words flow much easier as I am writing something, without the usual constant second-guessing and self-critique. Social interactions come easier, words and sentences come easier, and my behavior is less embarrassing then when I am on a full opioid agonist.

The partial mu agonist Buprenorphine seems to make my social anxiety worse (apart from the initial buzz that is felt for around an hour), possibly due to the kappa or delta receptor activity. I also experience very odd side effects that I do not experience on full agonists.

Edited by TigerMask, 03 June 2010 - 07:59 PM.

[TigerMask]

But does that really occur? Isnt it possible that tolerance just occurs to the euphoric effect, while the antidepressant effect remains?

I think this is quite possible. From what I understand of methadone programs, the theory is that at a certain "maintenance dose" one no longer feels a craving for opiates, even after tolerance to methadone's psychological effects set in. It's possible that depression responds in the same way.

OTOH, the adderall example is also instructive. If I use adderall for, say, two weeks straight, it looses the majority of the motivational component which is a big part of why I take it. When I have my script, I still try to use it in a way that keeps tolerance as low as possible. At least for some people, it seems that opioids may work in this way: the acute psychological effects are what is most helpful.

Methadone patients often deal with depression and of course sexual dysfunction. I'm sure others are perfectly happy but are less vocal about it as the unhappy ones. This problem could be eliminated by use of the thebaine derived opiates (hydrocodone or oxycodone), as they have the best antidepressant effects of all opiates in TigerMasks humble opinion.

I always thought the euphoric effect was the antidepressant effect. It's a possibility that the antidepressant effect will remain; I'm not sure. I'd like to see antidepressants based on opiates. Current opiates combined with drugs that eliminate tolerance would be another option.

Edited by TigerMask, 03 June 2010 - 08:18 PM.