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headache from piracetam


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#1 randyh

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 07:31 PM


I'm trying to start a nootropic regimen and I'm having terrible issues with headaches. I've been taking 1/2 tsp of piracetam powder (~1700mg) in the morning with 1/8 tsp of alphaGPC (~500mg). I've tried 1000mg of alphaGPC and that doesn't seem to make a difference. The headache seems to come on about 4-5 hours later and gets worse if I don't take ibuprofen (the only thing that has helped so far).

Is there anything other than choline that could be the problem here? I've also tried lecithin pills with no luck. I've never felt the symptoms of too much choline (crampy neck etc.) so is it possible that I need way more than normal?

I have a fairly healthy diet and i take a multi, greens supplement, and whey powder daily.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. I really like the effects of the piracetam but these headaches are torture.

thanks,
Randy

#2 doug123

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 08:05 PM

Is your Piracetam from a source the performs independent testing, or perhaps no? There might be a contaminant that has the side effects you describe. I won't comment further about what supplier you chose due to commercial conflict of interest (furthermore, the Piracetam I sell has not been independently tested), but will ask you to consider the following.

1. Piracetam is a dietary supplement in the USA.

It's pretty freaky the amount of contaminated dietary supplements going around the market. Even in spices!

http://pediatrics.aa...ract/116/2/e314

Childhood Lead Poisoning in 2 Families Associated With Spices Used in Food Preparation
Alan D. Woolf, MD, MPH*,, and Nicholas T. Woolf||

* Pediatric Environmental Health Subspecialty Unit, Boston, Massachusetts
Division of General Pediatrics, Children's Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts
Department of Pediatrics, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts
|| Lexington Christian Academy, Lexington, Massachusetts

Although most cases of childhood lead poisoning are caused by contaminated paint and dust in older homes, a variety of unusual sources of lead exposure are occasionally found. We report here 2 families whose children were poisoned by lead-contaminated spices that were purchased in foreign countries, brought to the United States, and then used in the preparation of the family’s food. Six children (2–17 years old) in a family from the Republic of Georgia were poisoned by swanuri marili (lead content: 100 and 2040 mg/kg in separately sampled products) and kharchos suneli (zafron) lead content: 23 100 mg/kg) purchased from a street vendor in Tbilisi, Georgia. The second family had purchased a mixture of spices called kozhambu (lead content: 310 mg/kg) while traveling in India. Both the parents and their 2-year-old child subsequently suffered lead poisoning. The young children in both families required short-term chelation to bring their blood lead levels down to a safer range. Clinicians should be vigilant for all sources of lead contamination, including spices, when whole families are found to have elevated blood lead levels despite a confirmed lead-safe home environment. Families traveling abroad should be aware of the potential health risks associated with the purchase and use of spices that have not been tested for purity.


http://www.consumerlab.com/

http://www.acsu.buff...etyefficacy.htm

http://jpp.sagepub.c...stract/18/3/188

Quality

· Lack of government regulation (i.e. no requirement for companies to follow Good Manufacturing Practices) coupled with poor quality control of the manufacturing process leads to a situation in which the amount of active ingredient in the bottle may be significantly different from the amount specified on the label. 

· A study of ginseng products found tremendous variability, with as little as 12% and as much as 328% of the active ingredient in the bottle, compared to the information on the label (Am J Clin Nutr. 2001. 73. 1101-1106). 

· A study of 59 Echinacea products from retail stores analyzed by thin layer chromotography showed that 6 contained no measurable Echinacea and only 9 of the 21 preparations labelled as standardized extracts actually contained in the sample the content listed on the label.  Overall, the assay results were consistent with the labelled content in only 31 of the59 preparations (Arch Intern Med. 2003. 163. 699-704). 

· When the FDA announced in 2003 a proposed rule to establish good manufacturing practices for supplements, the FDA cited data that 5 of 18 soy and/or red clover supplements contained only 50-80% of the quantity of isoflavones stated on the label, and 8 of 25 probiotic products contained less than 1% of the live bacteria claimed on the label.

· Quality really should start with Good Agricultural Practices (GAP’s).

· Quality concerns with regard to laboratory testing (Integrative Medicine. 2006. 5 [1]. 34-37 and 5[2]. 38-41).

· The Certificate of Analysis (COA) for raw material unfortunately is often just a certificate of content and may NOT accurately reflect the true content of the raw material.

·Neither manufacturers’ in house labs nor contract labs are regulated.

· Problems that exist with laboratory testing include dry labbing (lab reports a desirable result without ever performing the analysis), method rigging (lab alters the method of testing to produce a desirable result), and use of poor-quality reference standards (use of reagent grade chemicals rather than a primary or a secondary standard).

· There are in 2006 very few fully validated laboratory methodologies for analytical testing of botanicals.

·Additional quality issues include contamination of some herbs with other botanicals, micro-organisms, microbial toxins, fumigating agents, pesticides, heavy metals, or prescription or over the counter drugs.

In 1998 the California Department of Health reported in a letter published in the New England Journal of Medicine that 32% of Asian patent medicines sold in that state contained undeclared pharmaceuticals or heavy metals, including ephedrine ( a stimulant), chlorpheniramine (an antihistamine), methyltestosterone (an anabolic steroid), phenacetin (a pain killer), lead, mercury, and arsenic (N Engl J Med. 1998. 339. 847).
A study in which 500 Asian patent medicines were screened for the presence of heavy metals and 134 drugs found that 10% were contaminated (Bull Environ Contam Toxicol. 2000. 65. 112-119).
A study in which all unique Ayurvedic herbal medicine products were purchased from all stores within 20 miles of Boston City Hall found that 14 of 70 products (20%) contained heavy metals and that if taken as recommended by the manufacturer, each of these 14 products could result in heavy metal intakes above published regulatory standards (JAMA. 2004. 292. 2868-2873).
Adulteration of imported Chinese dietary supplements sold in Japan is responsible for 622 cases of illness, 148 hospitalizations, and 3 deaths (Report of the Japanese Ministry of Health, Labor, and Welfare.  September 20, 2002).
A 2002 Bastyr University study of 20 probiotic supplements found that 16 contained bacteria not listed on the label, 6 contained organisms that can make people sick, and 4 contained no live organisms.
PC-SPES was removed from the market in 2002 after it was determined that it was adulterated with the prescription blood thinner, warfarin.


Peace.

Edited by nootropikamil, 16 May 2006 - 08:20 PM.


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#3 xanadu

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 08:37 PM

I really doubt the reason for your headache is because the piracetam is bad though that is possible. Too much a-gpc can give you a headache all by itself. People sometimes get stiff necks and so on from it. I'm not a doctor, I'm just pointing out a possibility. Try it without the a-gpc and see if it works. If you still get the headache, then it was definately the piracetam. You might not react well to it but try that test first to see if it's the pir or the a-gpc.

#4 randyh

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 09:11 PM

I bought the piracetam and alphaGPC from bulknutrition. I actually tried piracetam (different source/brand) in the past and had the same effect so I'd rule out the contamination theory. At the time I was only taking lecithin pills and I chalked the headaches up to the lecithin not being a good enough choline source. Now that I'm trying alphaGPC and still getting headaches, I'm stumped. I plan on playing around with my choline sources some more but I don't know how many more days with headaches I can tolerate before it just isn't worth it. Any recommendations on other choline sources? cheaper is better. citrate? bitartate? lecithin granules? xanadu, i'll try the alphaGPC-only approach tomorrow and see what happens.

-r

#5 doug123

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 09:21 PM

Yeah, maybe it's not the piracetam -- unless all the piracetam is sourced from the same place, which is quite possible. I don't even take Piracetam because I think it's mostly placebo effect.

I don't even know why people looking for significant benefits even take these "racetams." There is little, if any evidence that seems to suggest folks will get a measurable increase in memory performace from these drugs. The beneficial effect is marginal, at best.

If I were you, I would stick to stuff we know works. Modafinil comes to mind.

If you are worried about cost/benefit, the racetams are not the way to go if you want a real improvement. I have never noticed anything major from any of them. Maybe after several months of treatment there is a small benefit. But there is no evidence from healthy individuals suggesting these work at all. So I tend to think it's a waste of cash for folks on a budget. If you have lots of cash to throw away, fine. [thumb]

Peace.

#6 randyh

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 09:52 PM

Well, I'm open to suggestions but I'm more interested in things I can obtain without a script and without ordering from overseas. I'd also prefer things with long track records of safety (like piracetam).

I've personally noticed an increased ability to oranize and verbalize my thoughts while on piracetam. It seems to make me kind of crabby though. I've read some things about GABA and crabbiness and wondered if that had anything to do with it since piracetam is a GABA derivative.

FWIW I also got a headache from Pyritinol. I never tried a choline source with pyritinol though.

-r

#7 doug123

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 01:56 AM

Unfortunately, long records of safety, in this case, happen to be correlated with long records of being rendered barely effective. It's not a coincidence that most of these drugs never caught on. I believe some nootropics (of pyritinol, the racetam family, idebenone, centrophenoxine, etc.) may be effective at something -- but as far as showing a statistically significant improvement in cognitive function in healthy individuals -- I do not think we are talking that impressive of a gain. An otherwise perfectly functioning healthy student would be a fool to waste his or her money on racetams in place of, say, coffee... ;)

It really depends on the budget of the individual. How much cash do you have to throw at what *might* work after investing $100, $200, or $300?

And if you want to compare the so called "boost" in cognitive function between, say, any of the racetams -- Piracetam, Aniracetam, Pramiracetam, Oxiracetam, etc -- to a drug like modafinil, Strattera, or dextroamphetamine -- the racetams -- for most folks the racetams would not even register on the chart. Sure -- you might see a tendency towards improvement after a month or more of treatment...but as far as something to marvel at -- sorry -- hint, hint: you might want to look elsewhere.

I believe it's hypothetically possible that "a" racetam could be developed that can show real efficacy, but if we had to fight cognitive decline -- or improve memory -- with what we have on hand today we would have hit a dead end. We do have a good lead on where to look next, however.

If you read the majority of the literature on the racetams, you will see that the benefits elderly folks were getting weren't impressive enough to warrant a single racetam's approval for Alzheimer's disease by the FDA. Cholinesterase inhibitors, such as Tacrine and Donepezil AKA Aricept both received prompt FDA approval -- Tacrine even had serious liver toxicity issues -- unlike Aricept. Yesavage et al. (Stanford University) found Aricept "to have beneficial effects on retention of training on complex aviation tasks in nondemented older adults." (1).

Yes, racetams may be prescription only in the EU, but so is Acetyl-L-carnitine and R-lipoic acid. As far as particularly effective memory treatments, the conventionally accepted nootropics fail. I can easily argue that they may be effective for particular individuals -- but only on the margins -- we are talking maybe 3-5% maximum.

In my experience -- and through experience of others I know -- for individuals with otherwise perfectly functioning memories -- stacking Alpha GPC and Piracetam is a big waste of money. It's just the first thing you read if you search the web about "smart drugs." A more thorough investigation might yield a more worthwhile conclusion.

Design and study of piracetam-like nootropics, controversial members of the problematic class of cognition-enhancing drugs.
Gualtieri F, Manetti D, Romanelli MN, Ghelardini C.
Dipartimento di Scienze Farmaceutiche, Universita di Firenze, Via G. Capponi 9, I-50121, Firenze, Italy. fulvio.gualtieri@unifi.it


Among other classes of cognition enhancers, piracetam like compounds suffer from the lack of a common, generally accepted, mechanism of action; a condition which has precluded, so far, a wide acceptance of these drugs as useful medicines. Ironically, the very low toxicity of this class of compounds is itself a problem, since it has been considered the result of insufficient activity, even if they are active in most preclinical assays and, at least in some clinical trials, their therapeutic efficacy has been found significant. As a consequence, after a period of intense research in the late eighties, interest for this class of drugs has vanished. Nevertheless, research in this field has allowed identification of two new classes of drugs, the ampakines and diacylpiperazines, whose cognition enhancing properties look promising. It is hoped that the new recently disclosed compounds, that seem to be endowed with unprecedented high potency, will contribute to elucidate the mechanism of action of the class and its revival.


Peace.

Edited by nootropikamil, 17 May 2006 - 02:16 AM.

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#8 randyh

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 03:43 AM

nootropikamil, I really appreciate all the info. I think we're on different pages as far as how much risk we're willing to take for a given benefit. I know that crystal methamphetamine is about the best thing I've ever taken for motivation but I'm not about to start snorting rails of glass every morning with my cereal ;) I really just want to stick to super-safe stuff, even if that means I might only get a 3% improvement. I consider myself very good at differentiating between placebo and a real benefit and I've detected a real difference while taking piracetam. If you know of a substance that is as cheap, obtainable, and safe I'd be happy to give it a shot. I'm curious what your recommendation would be for a $1 per day budget.

Some more about my situation: I'm a programmer and I spend most of my work day at near 100% of my brain's ability. I'm either trying to learn something new, remember something i did once 6 months ago, or figure out some complex issue. Given these circumstances I can usually detect slight changes in my memory/cognition. I also can use all the help I can get. I consider myself as having slight ADD, being slightly dyslexic, and having a below average memory. Piracetam has seemed to help with my dyslexia, to some extent, and that is partly why I'm intent on experimenting with it more. I've read that it has been used to treat dyslexia with some success. I've taken adderall in the past and I find that while it might be good for a day where you need to be superman, I can't see taking it all the time. It screws with my sleep too much and feels too speedy and dirty. Modafinil definitely looks good but, again, I'm not too sure about anything that hasn't been proven to be uber-safe (maybe it has, i haven't researched it much, although I got a sense from one article that it hasn't).

Anyway, I look forward to any recommendations you might have.

thanks,
-r

#9 doug123

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 04:20 AM

Well first off, to start, to paraphrase mitkat's previous statement: "the task of neural upgrading is not a process of digging through bargain bins." The first time you can detect nootropics are starting to work is when you realize you get what you pay for. ;) You might want to start by making sure whatever you do take is pure as possible.

Some folks go take something literally because they read that someone else "liked it"on the web. Some folks will also buy powders off the web without ever seeing a COA or, upon recognizing it came from a Chinese "chemical factory" -- without seeing an independent test to certify the stated purity. Now that is unsafe -- definitely more so than taking modafinil -- which has been in clinical use in elderly folks as adrafinil since the early 1980s (1) -- so if adrafinil is safe for old foggies, it's probably okay for you. Why not try adrafinil? Blood levels of lead less that the stated "safe" amount (10 µg per Deciliter) are inversely associated with high IQ. See above to see how many supplements on the US market are contaminated with measurable levels of lead -- and who knows what else? I used to buy cheap powders off of smi2le.biz -- that, if anything, is probably among the stupidest things I have ever done in my life.

http://content.nejm....act/348/16/1517
Volume 348:1517-1526  April 17, 2003  Number 16
Intellectual Impairment in Children with Blood Lead Concentrations below 10 µg per Deciliter

Richard L. Canfield, Ph.D., Charles R. Henderson, Jr., M.A., Deborah A. Cory-Slechta, Ph.D., Christopher Cox, Ph.D., Todd A. Jusko, B.S., and Bruce P. Lanphear, M.D., M.P.H.
Background Despite dramatic declines in children's blood lead concentrations and a lowering of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's level of concern to 10 µg per deciliter (0.483 µmol per liter), little is known about children's neurobehavioral functioning at lead concentrations below this level.

Methods We measured blood lead concentrations in 172 children at 6, 12, 18, 24, 36, 48, and 60 months of age and administered the Stanford–Binet Intelligence Scale at the ages of 3 and 5 years. The relation between IQ and blood lead concentration was estimated with the use of linear and nonlinear mixed models, with adjustment for maternal IQ, quality of the home environment, and other potential confounders.

Results The blood lead concentration was inversely and significantly associated with IQ. In the linear model, each increase of 10 µg per deciliter in the lifetime average blood lead concentration was associated with a 4.6-point decrease in IQ (P=0.004), whereas for the subsample of 101 children whose maximal lead concentrations remained below 10 µg per deciliter, the change in IQ associated with a given change in lead concentration was greater. When estimated in a nonlinear model with the full sample, IQ declined by 7.4 points as lifetime average blood lead concentrations increased from 1 to 10 µg per deciliter.

Conclusions Blood lead concentrations, even those below 10 µg per deciliter, are inversely associated with children's IQ scores at three and five years of age, and associated declines in IQ are greater at these concentrations than at higher concentrations. These findings suggest that more U.S. children may be adversely affected by environmental lead than previously estimated.


Source Information

From the Division of Nutritional Sciences (R.L.C.) and the Department of Human Development (C.R.H.), College of Human Ecology, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.; the Departments of Environmental Medicine (D.A.C.-S.) and Biostatistics and Computational Biology (C.C.), University of Rochester School of Medicine, Rochester, N.Y.; the Division of Epidemiology, Statistics, and Prevention, National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, National Institutes of Health, Department of Health and Human Services, Bethesda, Md. (C.C.); the Department of Epidemiology, School of Public Health and Community Medicine, University of Washington, Seattle (T.A.J.); and Cincinnati Children's Environmental Health Center, Children's Hospital Medical Center, Cincinnati (B.P.L.).

Address reprint requests to Dr. Canfield at the Division of Nutritional Sciences, College of Human Ecology, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853, or at rlc5@cornell.edu.



And don't ever underestimate the power of the placebo effect. The rest of your question, I'll answer later. I have a quiz tomorrow that I am not ready for, so I need to go to sleep now so I can wake up early enough to review.

Peace out. :)

Edited by nootropikamil, 17 May 2006 - 05:00 AM.


#10 Athanasios

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 07:39 PM

randy: "Some more about my situation: I'm a programmer and I spend most of my work day at near 100% of my brain's ability. I'm either trying to learn something new, remember something i did once 6 months ago, or figure out some complex issue. Given these circumstances I can usually detect slight changes in my memory/cognition."

Yeah, I agree that with those types of circumstances, it is much easier to differentiate between placebo and real effect. I am a chef, and that requires a lot of multi-tasking, organisational, and problem solving skills, usually all at once. If something affects my cognitive ability for two weeks straight, there is little chance that it is placebo. Although, placebo effect can carry me for a few days, until it causes burn-out.

#11 randyh

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 08:49 PM

This morning I took ~1000mg of alphaGPC. This time yesterday I had a screaming headache. Today I have a very mild headache. Could be the alphaGPC, could be allergies or some risudual from yesterday. I suppose the alphaGPC could be giving me the headache and the piracetam is just exacerbating it. I don't notice any neck tension but then I've never had neck tension before. Tomorrow I'll try the piracetam by itself and see how that goes.

-r

#12 xanadu

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 08:59 PM

Randy, it may be that pir is not good for you. If so, try aniracatam or one of the others. Adam may not like pir but it works very well for most people and it's definately not a placebo effect. Not everything works for every person.

While I'm on the subject, I'm kind of tired of hearing about all this "heavy metal" that is supposed to be in chinese products, or is it indian products? I have yet to hear of a case in which this was proved to have happened. What I have heard about is occasionally the product is not as pure as it should be. The adulterants may be sugar or the substance may just not have been purified enough. Everything should be 100% pure but that is not a reasonable standard. Until someone proves that even one batch of chinese, (or whoever) product had heavy metals in it, lets stop that kind of talk. It's nonsense. If you want to say you might only get 95% of what you pay for, then talk about that. Scare talk to make buyers come to a certain vendor is boring. Adam, I'm not talking about just you, I mean most of the vendors.

#13 randyh

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 12:43 AM

bulknutrition puts the COA with most of the products on their website. The piracetam they have looks pretty darn clean to me.

-r

edit: I'm such a potty mouth

#14 alexoverhere

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 01:07 AM

randy, have you tried reducing your dosage or splitting your doses over a longer period instead of taking it all at once?

#15 doug123

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 01:27 AM

That's a good idea, Alex. Most folks I know can't even stick to taking pills twice a day unless it's absolutely necessary. Hey, Piracetam is water soluble -- so make sure you do take it at least twice a day. And make sure you take a lot -- the most commonly referenced doses are 2.4-4,8 grams a day. The more powerful racetams have doses of 1.5 or 1.6 grams per day. Piracetam might work for some -- not really for me. I prefer the stronger racetams like Ani and Oxi. But of all the cognitive enhancers I currently take, the racetams are maybe number three or four on my list of importance.

#16 randyh

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 01:45 AM

But of all the cognitive enhancers I currently take, the racetams are maybe number three or four on my list of importance.


So what are your top picks? What would you recommend to me?

randy, have you tried reducing your dosage or splitting your doses over a longer period instead of taking it all at once?


Well, I'm only taking 1600mg and getting a massive headache. As nootripikamil pointed out, the usual dose is at least 2400mg. I'll put it this way: if I took half the dose (800mg) and got half the headache, that would still be way too much headache to handle daily. I feel like I'm depleting my brain of something because the headache takes 5-6 hours to kick in, right when the effects of the piracetam are wearing off. I'd like to figure out something I can take to counteract that effect rather than just taking less piracetam. Although it could be that I'm just REEEEEALLY sensitive to it and only need like 200mg. I'll certainly try that approach if nothing else seems to help. In fact, I'll probably lower the dosage tomorrow just to keep the headache I'm predicting from ruining my day.

-r

#17 randyh

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 06:26 PM

I took 1/8tsp (~800mg) of piracetam this morning without the alphaGPC. The headache is already here at 1pm. It seems like both alphaGPC AND piracetam give me a headache, although the piracetam seems much worse. The strange thing is that the first time i took the piracetam it didn't give me a headache at all. It seems like the more I take it, the worse the headaches become. The only thing I can think of is that the alphaGPC is not providing choline to my brain the way it's supposed to. Given that, I'm going to try a different choline source. My list so far looks like this:

Lecithin
cdp-choline
centro

What about HuperzineA? Doesn't it have some action on choline? I don't fully understand some of the terminology I've read regarding it. DMAE? I'm interested in trying the stuff that gets choline to your brain by different methods. (I probably sound like a complete idiot here so please forgive my noobness. Hopefully what I'm saying makes sense to some degree.)

any suggestions are appreciated,
-r

oh, and i'll definitely try at least one of the other racetams before I give up on them.

edit: just to be clear, I plan on trying Lecithin then cdp-choline then centro in that order.

#18 xanadu

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 12:57 AM

Yes, try them one at a time and give it at least several days if not weeks to test each one. First, go a couple days to see if the headache does go away when you stop both pir and a-gpc. If it does, then try one of them. When you are sure it agrees with you or at least doesn't disagree, try the second one and so on.

#19 kevink

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 08:47 PM

While I'm on the subject, I'm kind of tired of hearing about all this "heavy metal" that is supposed to be in chinese products, or is it indian products? I have yet to hear of a case in which this was proved to have happened. What I have heard about is occasionally the product is not as pure as it should be. The adulterants may be sugar or the substance may just not have been purified enough. Everything should be 100% pure but that is not a reasonable standard. Until someone proves that even one batch of chinese, (or whoever) product had heavy metals in it, lets stop that kind of talk. It's nonsense. If you want to say you might only get 95% of what you pay for, then talk about that. Scare talk to make buyers come to a certain vendor is boring. Adam, I'm not talking about just you, I mean most of the vendors.


All you have to do is join consumerlab.com (or have someone tell you the results) -- they test a FRACTION of the market and frequently find dangerous lead levels in some of the products tested. I won't say because it's copyrighted material and shouldn't be stolen.

And the "doesn't contain much of the active ingredient" happens with many of the samples they test. So you won't die from lead poisoning, but you're paying for "sugar pills".

What I'm TOTALLY SURPRISED at is the lack of heavy metals and etc. in some common store brands. Of course their supplier batch could be good this time and poison the next, but I don't think I've ever seen them fail (costco et al). Even bargain brands like Puritan's Pride (?) is usually dirt cheap (I don't use them), but they've never failed a consumerlab test as far as I know.

The key is the up to date CoA...if you can get that, then you don't have to guess.

Heavy metal contamination is a real concern, ESPECIALLY considering many of us are popping numerous pills every day.

#20 doug123

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 09:38 PM

You are right, Kevin. But heavy metals are...as AORsupport has stated: "the low hanging fruit" that we taking unregulated "dietary supplements" in the USA have to worry about -- but heavy metals are particularly compelling for those of us worried about cognitive performance because lead is probably the MOST damaging compound known to man that negatively affects IQ (even in so called "safe" amounts -- so it would only require ONE exposure to lead to lower IQ -- and that blood level wouldn't even be detectable by most commonly accepted medical standards -- see above how lead negatively affects IQ).

http://jpp.sagepub.c...stract/18/3/188

Journal of Pharmacy Practice, Vol. 18, No. 3, 188-208 (2005)
DOI: 10.1177/0897190005277217
© 2005 SAGE Publications
Herbal Product Contamination and Toxicity
Susan C. Smolinske, PharmD, DABAT
Children’s Hospital of Michigan Regional Poison Control Center, Wayne State University, College of Medicine, Department of Pediatrics, Detroit, Michigan

Herbal poisoning exposures reported to poison centers increased by 344% after passage of the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act, with 24412 exposures reported in 2003. Increased toxicity is speculated to be related to lack of child-resistant packaging, new issues of contamination, proliferation of multiple ingredient products, excessive concentration of active ingredients, and discovery of new drug-herb interactions. This review addresses contamination issues such as heavy metals, pharmaceuticals, homeopathic remedies, microbes, insects, environmental chemicals, and mis-identification of one plant for another. Toxicity issues covered include carcinogenicity, delay in seeking medical treatment when using herbs to treat serious illness, toxic components, hypersensitivity reactions, hepatotoxins, nephrotoxins, epileptogenic compounds, cardiac toxins, gastrointestinal toxins, and hematologic toxins. Common drug-herb interactions are discussed. The pharmacist plays an important role in patient education and evaluation of potential toxicities related to herbal supplements.


The currently available scientific evidence suggests that approximately one in three dietary supplement products in USA are unable to meet their label claims or are otherwise contaminated with...who knows what...you name it, it might be in there.

As I quoted above, I'll do it again:

Quality

· Lack of government regulation (i.e. no requirement for companies to follow Good Manufacturing Practices) coupled with poor quality control of the manufacturing process leads to a situation in which the amount of active ingredient in the bottle may be significantly different from the amount specified on the label.

· A study of ginseng products found tremendous variability, with as little as 12% and as much as 328% of the active ingredient in the bottle, compared to the information on the label (Am J Clin Nutr. 2001. 73. 1101-1106).


A study of 59 Echinacea products from retail stores analyzed by thin layer chromotography showed that 6 contained no measurable Echinacea and only 9 of the 21 preparations labelled as standardized extracts actually contained in the sample the content listed on the label. Overall, the assay results were consistent with the labelled content in only 31 of the59 preparations (Arch Intern Med. 2003. 163. 699-704).


· When the FDA announced in 2003 a proposed rule to establish good manufacturing practices for supplements, the FDA cited data that 5 of 18 soy and/or red clover supplements contained only 50-80% of the quantity of isoflavones stated on the label, and 8 of 25 probiotic products contained less than 1% of the live bacteria claimed on the label.
· Quality really should start with Good Agricultural Practices (GAP’s).

· Additional quality issues include contamination of some herbs with other botanicals, micro-organisms, microbial toxins, fumigating agents, pesticides, heavy metals, or prescription or over the counter drugs.

In 1998 the California Department of Health reported in a letter published in the New England Journal of Medicine that 32% of Asian patent medicines sold in that state contained undeclared pharmaceuticals or heavy metals, including ephedrine ( a stimulant), chlorpheniramine (an antihistamine), methyltestosterone (an anabolic steroid), phenacetin (a pain killer), lead, mercury, and arsenic (N Engl J Med. 1998. 339. 847).


A study in which 500 Asian patent medicines were screened for the presence of heavy metals and 134 drugs found that 10% were contaminated (Bull Environ Contam Toxicol. 2000. 65. 112-119).


A study in which all unique Ayurvedic herbal medicine products were purchased from all stores within 20 miles of Boston City Hall found that 14 of 70 products (20%) contained heavy metals and that if taken as recommended by the manufacturer, each of these 14 products could result in heavy metal intakes above published regulatory standards (JAMA. 2004. 292. 2868-2873).


But this information is just scientific evidence. Some choose to ignore scientific evidence and prefer ignorance...

Peace.

#21 doug123

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 10:02 PM

Randy, it may be that pir is not good for you. If so, try aniracatam or one of the others. Adam may not like pir but it works very well for most people and it's definately not a placebo effect. Not everything works for every person.

While I'm on the subject, I'm kind of tired of hearing about all this "heavy metal" that is supposed to be in chinese products, or is it indian products? I have yet to hear of a case in which this was proved to have happened. What I have heard about is occasionally the product is not as pure as it should be. The adulterants may be sugar or the substance may just not have been purified enough. Everything should be 100% pure but that is not a reasonable standard. Until someone proves that even one batch of chinese, (or whoever) product had heavy metals in it, lets stop that kind of talk. It's nonsense. If you want to say you might only get 95% of what you pay for, then talk about that. Scare talk to make buyers come to a certain vendor is boring. Adam, I'm not talking about just you, I mean most of the vendors.


Anecdotes are boring to scientists.

I suppose I could argue that the earth is flat, and assume I would be taken just as seriously.

I have seen similar arguments coming from you, xanadu -- I would hope you learn sooner rather than later how to think scientifically.
ImmInst is a scientific community, so show us some evidence to support your...rather...well -- unconventional reasoning. I try my best to use the publishings of at least a Ph.D or an MD to support my reasoning. I find it generally gets me a bit farther with intelligent folks.

Try google for "scientific evidence" and report back to us your findings.

Peace.

#22 xanadu

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 12:27 AM

kevink wrote:

>All you have to do is join consumerlab.com (or have someone tell you the results) -- they test a FRACTION of the market and frequently find dangerous lead levels in some of the products tested.

What products and at what levels?

>I won't say because it's copyrighted material and shouldn't be stolen.

That's bull. Copyrights do not prohibit fair use which this is. It only prevents selling something other people wrote or presenting it as your own work.

Asian patent medicines is another area altogether. They put in all sorts of wierd things from bull antlers to... things you don't want to know about. Did you know that virtually all food and drugs in the USA have lead in them? It's in the air from when it used to be in gasoline and it's in the soil, water etc. Adam, if your standard is zero lead, nothing can pass the test. Your anecdotes are interesting but that's all they are. I don't see anyone talking much about asian patent medicines. We are talking mainly about purified products from overseas, not over the counter patent medicines.

Show us some proof that major chinese, indian or other laboratories are contaminating their products with lead, mercury or whatnot. The patent medicines have mercury and other things put in them deliberately. I'm not defending that. I'm saying show us some evidence about things we use and sources we might be buying from. Little anecdotes such as those you presented do not fill the bill. I can tell of cases where american manufacturors put out contaminated products and some of them killed people. Does that mean we should avoid american made goods? Be more specific and I'll listen to you.

#23 doug123

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 01:03 AM

xanadu: I kindly repeat my request for you to form a scientific argument. I would like to help you learn to think like a scientist. I will show you the way I think, so you might be able to benefit.

This illustration might help you too.

Posted Image

1. Observe some aspect of the universe.

Lead is damaging to intelligence.

2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is consistent with what you have observed.

If we subject all chemicals we ingest that are intended to improve cognition to an independent assay for heavy metal content, lead is less likely to damage our intelligence.

3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions.

Individuals with higher IQ will tend to post in fora where vendors perform independent assays to ensure lack of lead -- and folks with higher blood levels of lead -- known to lower IQ-- will end up in other fora where even "safe" levels of heavy metal contamination is not considered an important issue.

4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and modify the hypothesis in the light of your results.

I'll compare the intellectual content of this nootropic forum to others - and yes, it seems we here are more intelligent than others -- we are aware of bias, lack of regulation in the supplement market, and hype used by vendors to increase sales of products whose effects have never been demonstrated in human subjects -- and we frown upon scientific fraud, lies, and misrepresentation. A new theory I am developing is that scientific frauds are individuals with higher blood levels of lead -- and corresponding lower IQ. Please let me know if you would like to see that presentation. :)

5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and/or observation.

I'm ready to form a theory.

The reason the ImmInst forum has recently developed more intellectual prowess than other nootropic forums is because we are less likely to be ingesting levels of lead known to lower IQ. This correlation may be due to independent testing for possible lead contamination.

Conclusion: More research into lead contamination and IQ of nootropic fora participants is warranted.


I suggest you address the following question if you want to be taken seriously:

What is your argument, and what evidence will you use to support your reasoning?

So far, your argument is that all dietary supplements (except for Asian Patent medicines) in the USA match their label claim and are free of contaminants. Please follow the scientific method as I did.

Peace. [wis]

Edited by nootropikamil, 20 May 2006 - 01:43 AM.


#24 randyh

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 01:43 PM

If this lead argument is going to continue could you please have it in another thread? I'd like to continue posting my results here.

edit: Please don't take offense here. I do value the discussion. I'd just like to keep this thread focused... on me [lol]

Edited by randyh, 20 May 2006 - 03:28 PM.


#25 kevink

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 05:12 PM

Xanadu - Gee, I don't think I saw a "thank you" in that response. I hope the hostility was towards Adam and not directed this way? [wis]

As for MY desire to not steal information from a company whose business model is SELLING that information...I will simply cut and paste something from their most recent Ginseng tests. This "product" was sold at a huge "big box" mart.

"...was contaminated with 1 to 3 mcg of lead per day (based on its suggested daily serving of 1 to 3 capsules). The State of California's "no significant risk level" for lead in supplements is 0.5 mcg of lead per day (see Passing Score). California requires products exceeding this level to provide a warning label — which this product did not. It has been reported that children can show signs of lead poisoning when exposed to more than 6 mcg or more of lead per day. Since children get approximately 1 to 2 mcg of lead each day from environmental exposure (water, food, air), additional exposure from this product could put some children at risk for lead toxicity and should be avoided. Although adults can tolerate higher amounts of lead (about 70 mcg per day), lead can build up in the body and such exposure should be avoided. Pregnant women should particularly avoid lead, as it can be transferred to the fetus."

OK - I rarely log on anymore, but I hope this helps shed some light on things to look out for.


kevink wrote:

>All you have to do is join consumerlab.com (or have someone tell you the results) -- they test a FRACTION of the market and frequently find dangerous lead levels in some of the products tested.

What products and at what levels?

>I won't say because it's copyrighted material and shouldn't be stolen.

That's bull. Copyrights do not prohibit fair use which this is. It only prevents selling something other people wrote or presenting it as your own work.

Asian patent medicines is another area altogether. They put in all sorts of wierd things from bull antlers to... things you don't want to know about. Did you know that virtually all food and drugs in the USA have lead in them? It's in the air from when it used to be in gasoline and it's in the soil, water etc. Adam, if your standard is zero lead, nothing can pass the test. Your anecdotes are interesting but that's all they are. I don't see anyone talking much about asian patent medicines. We are talking mainly about purified products from overseas, not over the counter patent medicines.

Show us some proof that major chinese, indian or other laboratories are contaminating their products with lead, mercury or whatnot. The patent medicines have mercury and other things put in them deliberately. I'm not defending that. I'm saying show us some evidence about things we use and sources we might be buying from. Little anecdotes such as those you presented do not fill the bill. I can tell of cases where american manufacturors put out contaminated products and some of them killed people. Does that mean we should avoid american made goods? Be more specific and I'll listen to you.



#26 xanadu

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 09:35 PM

kevink, no hostility was directed your way. However, it is bull that using copyrighted material for discussion is stealing. That is simply incorrect. I won't take up space explaining fair use or the intricacies of copyright law because it's off topic. However, you can use it for discussion, teaching or many other uses as long as you don't present it as your own work. Thank you for putting some thought into it.

Adam, all I see is a strawman argument from you. You dodge all my points and write:

"So far, your argument is that all dietary supplements (except for Asian Patent medicines) in the USA match their label claim and are free of contaminants."

Nope, never said that and you know it. You brought in a red herring in the form of oriental patent medicines which no one was discussing. I tried to bring you back down to reality by reminding you that we are talking about major manufacturors, not over the counter junk that might be made in someone's apartment. I'm not knocking you at all but you seem to insist on making this into some sort of personal argument which I'm not interested in. Show us evidence that major chinese, indian or other pharm manufacturors have lead in their products and you will get everyone's attention. Anecdotes about other things will not do.

#27 doug123

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 09:36 PM

If this lead argument is going to continue could you please have it in another thread? I'd like to continue posting my results here.

edit: Please don't take offense here. I do value the discussion. I'd just like to keep this thread focused... on me  [lol]


Lead is dead -- sorry for going off of topic. Xanadu started it by introducing a non-scientific argument...let's stick to what we know might be true -- based on evidence.

Peace.

#28 xanadu

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 11:57 PM

"Xanadu started it by introducing a non-scientific argument...let's stick to what we know might be true -- based on evidence."

Actually, it has been you who brought up lead in many threads including this one. As for sticking to evidence, I'm all for it.

#29 doug123

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Posted 21 May 2006 - 12:06 AM

for sticking to evidence, I'm all for it.


What is your argument again? Please clarify for everyone. Last time I checked it was "the earth is flat." I suppose just as many people actually take your arguments seriously. :)

Peace out. [thumb]

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#30 randyh

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 10:59 PM

Update:

Saturday: 1 tbs lecithin granules
Sunday: 2 tbs lecithin granules
Monday: 800mg piracetam, 2tbs lecithin granules
Tuesday: 1600mg piracetam, 2tbs lecithin granules

Result: the headache is much better with the lecithin but I can't say it's 100% gone. It's much more "in the background" now.

The issue now seems to be an incredible level of grouchiness while on the piracetam. It's a strange mood though as I can still be happy and joke with people, but as soon as something happens to set me off watch out! I was driving at lunch today and being extremely aggressive, something I haven't done in years. Can anyone explain what is going on? More specifically, is there something I can add to my "stack" that will cool me out? Has anyone else experienced this?

-r




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