18 replies to this topic

[maff23uk]

Hi,

This is my first post so "hi!" to everyone.

I have a puzzling problem regarding DHEA supplementation I'm hoping someone can shed some light on.

I am 27 and have suffered from chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) since age 11. I have since developed various complications including but not limited to chemical sensitivities, allergies, depression/anxiety, gut issues, and hypoglycemia/metabolic syndrome.

Following a saliva test showing borderline DHEA levels I took DHEA capsules starting at a dose of 25mg daily, decreasing to 12.5mg every other day, for a period of 3 months. The results were amazing, by far the most pronounced and widespread benefits from any single supplement or medication I've ever tried, and I've tried a lot! After only a few days I felt a powerful sense of well-being, was able to cope with stress (had felt hopelessly overwhelmed by the slightest thing), muscle tension disappeared, had more energy, and my previously all over the place blood sugar levels became perfectly controlled. Over a comparatively short time my allergies and chemical sensitivities also disappeared.

The only problem was that the DHEA supplements didn't do my liver much good. My liver function was already impaired and it couldn't cope with the DHEA through the oral route. The same had happened previously with a couple of pharmaceuticals such as Cipro. As a result I had to stop taking the DHEA capsules. The benefits outlined above did persist for a couple of months after this however.

I started looking for a way to get the benefits without the liver side-effects and transdermal creams seemed like a good idea. I have recently tried 2 different brands for a month each and.....NOTHING!!

The research I've read on PubMed suggests that DHEA is readily absorbed through the skin and quickly converts to DHEA-S and raises blood levels. If this is true then I can only conclude that while taking DHEA capsules it wasn't actually DHEA/DHEA-S that was having the amazing benefits. I have read somewhere that since oral DHEA is metabolized first in the liver then some other metabolites might actually be producing the beneficial effects. The fact that the benefits persisted for months after I stopped taking the DHEA capsules seems to suggest a more complicated explanation too.

As DHEA is converted to testosterone, and many of the benefits attributed to DHEA are also listed as benefits of correcting low testosterone, could testosterone supplementation be the way to go next?

Thanks for any suggestions.

[FunkOdyssey]

Have you tried taking it sublingually?

[syr_]

What kind of transdermal did you use?

[maff23uk]

I've used Life-flow DHEA Plus and Pro DHEA at 15mg and 25mg per day respectively. Both had no effect whatsoever after 4 weeks. When I take even small amounts of oral DHEA every other day or every 3rd day the effects are fast and profound. After doing some research I am increasingly convinved the oral route forced the liver to convert some of the DHEA to testosterone, and it is this which was having the powerful effects. I've ordered a testosterone test kit from my doc to try to shed some light on this theory.

FunkOdyssey - I did try sublingual tablets but they seemed to be equally damaging to my liver as standard tablets/capsules. I am always a little wary of sublingual forms as whatever I do I just seem to make large amounts of saliva with the substance dissolved in it, which ends up getting swallowed and going through my digestive system and liver anyway!

[syr_]

I have homemade a DHEA transdermal using a good carrier (dermabolics) with a 20% DMSO. I have had fatigue restoring effects but zero testosterone increase that I could measure empirically (i.e. no muscle gains or any feeling of androgens). I was dosing 25mg x2 times a day since transdermal delivery lasts about 10h.

Some people believes that transdermal DHEA is superior, but I think I may have been wrong. So after reading your post I decide to retry, since I have one second bottle of AST 100mg dhea capsules, I'm taking one a day bedtime. I'm on third day and I can definitely feel a lot more of energy (I'm under stress and a lot of work more than usual, so I choose this time to start this trial).
I will go for no more than 2 weeks at this dosage to avoid shutdown.

[power.bulls.x]

i have a botle of DermaBolic metacort dhea+6oxo a very used type of cortisol reduction and PCT among BB.

dont know if it the 6oxo or dhea or placebo effect but it is work nicely.

[sallyj]

Hello! I'm also new to this forum....a friend sent me the link, and as I browsed through, found your post!

I have been reading about transdermal magnesium and how it raises DHEA levels naturally....

thought you might be interested in reading about it...although your post is from Jan.!....hope you get to read it!

http://www.internati....net/Page8.html

if you put in ....magnesium oil DHEA......into google you will get some good results

there are two distributors that I know of....... this is the one I get mine from....prices are half of what the other source is

http://www.health-an...m/magnesium.htm

....I think the other is an MM marketing company......not sure but I do see their products from other sales sources!

more links:

http://www.magnesiumforlife.com/

http://www.life-enth...t/prod_book.htm

http://www.holisticl...06/content4.htm

[James186282]

<br />What kind of transdermal did you use?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

I had problems with the life-flo DHEA cream as well. My doctor and I went over it and this is filled with other junk males do NOT want. She said this was clearly intended to do "estrogenic" things. I wrote Life Flo and they agreed that the product was a women's product and not intended for male use.

I suggested they market a simple DHEA cream without things like Black Cohosh etc.

One way to get "real" DHEA is to contract a Compounding Pharmacy and have your doctor write a script for it. Thats my plan because along with it not bothering the liver I understand from some papers I've read that it doesn't convert so much into estrogen (for men) and Testosterone (for women) as DHEA does when you take it in oral form.

Good luck!

[4eva]

This LEF article has some info. It says that oral DHEA causes free radicals in the liver.

Did I miss something or did you not explain why you think the DHEA is cascading into other andregens. I would think you might feel the effects of hormone changes if that is the problem.

http://www.lef.org/m...001_briefs.html

[superpooper]

I always thought if your liver has a bad reaction to DHEA it usually means you have a defect it liver sulfation (since it has to be converted to DHEA-S).

I had a bad reaction to DHEA so I tried epsom salt which is supposed to help with liver sulfation by increasing sulfate in your diet. I have made huge improvements all across the board with epsom salt. I haven't even re-tried DHEA because I've been distracted with how much epsom salt has improved my liver function.

[missminni]

This LEF article has some info. It says that oral DHEA causes free radicals in the liver.

Did I miss something or did you not explain why you think the DHEA is cascading into other andregens. I would think you might feel the effects of hormone changes if that is the problem.

http://www.lef.org/m...001_briefs.html

Yes, but only at very high doses

When taking oral supplements of DHEA, it is important that antioxidants are available to the liver because DHEA can promote free radicals in liver cells. Animal studies have shown that extremely high doses (from 2000 to 10,000 mg DHEA daily in human terms) caused liver damage in mice and rats. When antioxidants were given along with the DHEA, liver damage did not occur despite the massive doses of DHEA being administered to these animals. It should be noted that the amount of DHEA shown to cause liver damage is 20 times more than is necessary to produce anti-aging benefits. Alpha lipoic acid, vitamin E and N-acetyl- cysteine (NAC) are antioxidants that have been shown to be especially effective in suppressing free radicals in the liver.

What about 7 keto dhea? Would that the serve the same purpose as reg dhea?

[missminni]

I have homemade a DHEA transdermal using a good carrier (dermabolics) with a 20% DMSO. I have had fatigue restoring effects but zero testosterone increase that I could measure empirically (i.e. no muscle gains or any feeling of androgens). I was dosing 25mg x2 times a day since transdermal delivery lasts about 10h.

Some people believes that transdermal DHEA is superior, but I think I may have been wrong. So after reading your post I decide to retry, since I have one second bottle of AST 100mg dhea capsules, I'm taking one a day bedtime. I'm on third day and I can definitely feel a lot more of energy (I'm under stress and a lot of work more than usual, so I choose this time to start this trial).
I will go for no more than 2 weeks at this dosage to avoid shutdown.

What do you mean by shutdown?

[James186282]

<br />

I have homemade a DHEA transdermal using a good carrier (dermabolics) with a 20% DMSO. I have had fatigue restoring effects but zero testosterone increase that I could measure empirically (i.e. no muscle gains or any feeling of androgens). I was dosing 25mg x2 times a day since transdermal delivery lasts about 10h.<br /><br />Some people believes that transdermal DHEA is superior, but I think I may have been wrong. So after reading your post I decide to retry, since I have one second bottle of AST 100mg dhea capsules, I'm taking one a day bedtime. I'm on third day and I can definitely feel a lot more of energy (I'm under stress and a lot of work more than usual, so I choose this time to start this trial).<br /><b>I will go for no more than 2 weeks at this dosage to avoid shutdown.</b>

<br /><font size="2"><font face="Courier ">What do you mean by shutdown?</font></font><br />

<br /><br /><br />

100mg is a very large dose. I use 15mg myself. And I split that in half taking half when I wake up and the other half just before bed. *This to miic how *I think - DHEA really works. I find it helps me dream at night. *I have low DHEA labs btw before I started and I do this only under my doctors supervision.

I don't have the link handy and my computer has hatched since I found this file but in short it said that Oral DHEA does convert to much into Estrogen in men. And that in women it converts into Testosterone. The study said this does not happen when the DHEA is Transdermal. I've seen some expensive OTC patches but... Again I think having a pharmacy make this up is a much better idea then buying God knows what crap over the internet.

As to if it "works" for me getting my DHEA levels into a normal range has helped me dream (Vivid btw) and when I wake up I feel rested. I'm assuming its the DHEA because thats the only thing I've changed but this is not a scientific study.

[AgeVivo]

warning: at high concentrations Dehydroepiandrosterone is Neurotoxic In Vitro and In Vivo:
http://toxsci.oxford...t/full/93/2/348 +hepatocarcinoma as mentioned in threads above

[missminni]

<br />

I have homemade a DHEA transdermal using a good carrier (dermabolics) with a 20% DMSO. I have had fatigue restoring effects but zero testosterone increase that I could measure empirically (i.e. no muscle gains or any feeling of androgens). I was dosing 25mg x2 times a day since transdermal delivery lasts about 10h.<br /><br />Some people believes that transdermal DHEA is superior, but I think I may have been wrong. So after reading your post I decide to retry, since I have one second bottle of AST 100mg dhea capsules, I'm taking one a day bedtime. I'm on third day and I can definitely feel a lot more of energy (I'm under stress and a lot of work more than usual, so I choose this time to start this trial).<br /><b>I will go for no more than 2 weeks at this dosage to avoid shutdown.</b>

<br /><font size="2"><font face="Courier ">What do you mean by shutdown?</font></font><br />

<br /><br /><br />

100mg is a very large dose. I use 15mg myself. And I split that in half taking half when I wake up and the other half just before bed. *This to miic how *I think - DHEA really works. I find it helps me dream at night. *I have low DHEA labs btw before I started and I do this only under my doctors supervision.

I don't have the link handy and my computer has hatched since I found this file but in short it said that Oral DHEA does convert to much into Estrogen in men. And that in women it converts into Testosterone. The study said this does not happen when the DHEA is Transdermal. I've seen some expensive OTC patches but... Again I think having a pharmacy make this up is a much better idea then buying God knows what crap over the internet.

As to if it "works" for me getting my DHEA levels into a normal range has helped me dream (Vivid btw) and when I wake up I feel rested. I'm assuming its the DHEA because thats the only thing I've changed but this is not a scientific study.

You still didn't explain what you mean by "shutdown". Do you mean that your adrenals will shut down if you do dhea orally for too long? I stopped taking it entirely when I noticed my hair (head) thinning. I took it for about 2 months...25 to 50 mg a day, sublingually/orally. My dhea was so low at the time...11...and I was so exhausted physically, had lost all the hair on my arms and legs, and my eyebrows were half their normal length. At first I felt amazing...so much better mood wise and energy wise and my skin (eczema) cleared up entirely. But the eventual thinning of the hair on my head was just not acceptable, so I stopped - suddenly - and within a few days had an eczema attack.
I am now only taking Pregnenlone. 180 mg a day for about 6 weeks now. The eczema is basically under control, but not as good as it was with the dhea, my hair is no longer thinning, and all the hair on my arms and eyebrows grew back. I found dhea very effective, but risky with unattractive side effects. I was not under a doctor's supervision. Pregnenlone has a better safety record. I am hoping it will eventually clear the eczema too. The dhea did. I didn't have a single outbreak the whole time I was on it.
Have you tried DMSO for transdermal application?

[OneScrewLoose]

Just a suggestion, I used to have chronic fatigue and painful gut problems until I found out it was all caused by celiac disease. It might not be an issue for you but it's worth looking into.

[missminni]

Just a suggestion, I used to have chronic fatigue and painful gut problems until I found out it was all caused by celiac disease. It might not be an issue for you but it's worth looking into.

Thanks for the tip. It appears that celiac disease is basically an
intolerance for gluten, which very well might be part of my problem since I love bread. I think I will
do the gluten free diet and see if there is a change. Thanks so much for reminding me about gluten.
I also considered low stomach acid as being part of my problem, which shares the end result of
poor absorption of nutrients. I 'm thinking that is the problem for most conditions but it is very
rarely diagnosed as such and people are prescribed medications that just add new problems.
Thanks again. I'm going gluten free as of today.

[hamishm00]

take the liquid sublingually.

[OneScrewLoose]

Tell me how the gluten free diet goes, I'd be real curious to know! Also, if you want some results on paper, check out enterolab.com. It was through them that I found out I'm intolerant to a lot more than gluten.