18 replies to this topic

[garethnelsonuk]

It seems every other thread here follows the following pattern:
Person A asks for advice on something
Person B advises modafinil
Person C agrees
Person D agrees
.....

My question is this - why?

Sure, modafinil works great but it seems vastly over-hyped here and i'm rather curious why.

[pikatchu]

modafinil works great but it seems vastly over-hyped

I agree with you.

Maybe because not subtle modafinil effect can be clearly felt.

[garethnelsonuk]

I can't digup the link right now (will look later if requested) but i'm sure i've seen someone complain of insomnia and been recommended modafinil here.

[emerson]

Sure, modafinil works great but it seems vastly over-hyped here and i'm rather curious why.

Because it works. Most of the substances discussed here move somewhere within a level of possible effect. The evidence for most of them doing much in healthy young adults is pretty small and one often has to wade through a huge pile of obscure studies to find even that. Modafinil, however, has had a fair amount of research behind it for use in healthy young adults. And, I'll agree, it's not subtle. It's not like the college kid offered oregeno as weed, sitting around slowly convincing himself that he's high. Modafinil's effects are right there, out in the open, shouting benefit to the person taking it.

I don't want to sound like I'm coming down too harshly on nootropics. I do believe there's a lot of potential there, but I think as a community we're often a bit too quick to judge something as working when there's not a lot of human study there yet.

[luminous]

I can't digup the link right now (will look later if requested) but i'm sure i've seen someone complain of insomnia and been recommended modafinil here.

funny!

[medievil]

It seems every other thread here follows the following pattern:
Person A asks for advice on something
Person B advises modafinil
Person C agrees
Person D agrees
.....

My question is this - why?

Sure, modafinil works great but it seems vastly over-hyped here and i'm rather curious why.

last time i recommend modafinil and person B disagreed lol

[doug123]

Sure, modafinil works great but it seems vastly over-hyped here and i'm rather curious why.

Because it works. Most of the substances discussed here move somewhere within a level of possible effect. The evidence for most of them doing much in healthy young adults is pretty small and one often has to wade through a huge pile of obscure studies to find even that. Modafinil, however, has had a fair amount of research behind it for use in healthy young adults. And, I'll agree, it's not subtle. It's not like the college kid offered oregeno as weed, sitting around slowly convincing himself that he's high. Modafinil's effects are right there, out in the open, shouting benefit to the person taking it.

I don't want to sound like I'm coming down too harshly on nootropics. I do believe there's a lot of potential there, but I think as a community we're often a bit too quick to judge something as working when there's not a lot of human study there yet.

I think you've pretty much hit it on the nose, dude. The facts are, there is peer reviewed literature to support the use of Provigil (modafinil) as a cognitive enhancer in healthy humans and there isn't any for other so called "smart drugs."

I very much admire your dedication to supporting research to find more effective cognitive enhancers, such as you described here.

I am currently working on something that might be able to work with your new organization: http://humanupliftproject.com/ -- or possibly provide funding. We'll see. I'll send you a PM, maybe we can figure out something soon.

This is probably the topic to learn more the effects of modafinil. If this is the first time you've heard of modafinil, be sure to read both pages of that topic.

[pikatchu]

The facts are, there is peer reviewed literature to support the use of Provigil (modafinil) as a cognitive enhancer in healthy humans and there isn't any for other so called "smart drugs."

I agree, but that does not mean in any way that they are not working !

[pikatchu]

... those “demonstrations” would require some ways to evaluate improvements, and thus some ways to evaluate Intelligence, and thus a precise and objective definition of intelligence and cognitive performances. Is there a definition of intelligence? I doubt… If there is one I would like to read it.

I think we all have our view of the intelligence concept. In my view there is some measurable expressions of intelligence like memory and logical abilities but Intelligence is also made of subjective parts like intuition, passion, vision, motivation, multi-tasking capabilities, curiosity, passion, creativity and many other that are not quantifiable… and far more impossible to evaluate is how all those synergize together in parts or in totality. Remember Einstein did not scored very well on IQ tests.

Double-blind placebo test to measure intelligence? For me it’s like evaluate a soccer player by measuring how far he can kick the ball!

The most obvious fact reading forums here is that substances effects are not the same for all. For me the only valuable evaluation of improvements is my own perception of it, and if this perception is also shared by others, then this is my proof.

So... FOR ME, modafilnil definitely boost cognition performances in many ways but FOR ME it's really not an intelligence enhancer.

Edited by pikatchu, 24 January 2007 - 11:41 PM.

[cmorera]

i take modafinil, it has good effects on me.

im not sure if its causing changes ... ie: when i stop taking it will i still have gains?

i think its good stuff though, helping me get on a more normal work / life schedule ext...

[esmith]

Remember Einstein did not scored very well on IQ tests.

I think it's an urban legend. this site: http://www.einstein-...iousthings.html

says "as far as we known today, Albert Einstein has never done any IQ test." Besides, we didn't have any good IQ tests back then. The very first IQ test designed for adults appeared when Einstein was 60 years old.

[garethnelsonuk]

Einstein was however considered to be retarded in his youth by both his teachers and parents.

[wannafulfill]

Modafinil does nothing but cause anxiety for me, which is strange considering that I do not suffer from anxiety otherwise. That is, except for occasionally having some anxiety as a natural response to very stressful situations.

[thereverend5]

I've heard nothing but good things from people who use Modafinil, from many perspectives such as those who use recreational stimulants to those who focus on cognitive enhancement and preservation.

It seems reasonable enough that it would cause anxiety due to its stimulating effects, that's a common symptom of any type of stimulant right down to coffee. Heck, Oxiracetam can exacerbate my paranoia sometimes.

Is it true that Modafinil actually has neuroprotective properties?

[stephen_b]

I've tried it a few times, sometimes before going to work after too little sleep, sometimes to see if it could enhance productivity. It gives me a slight "buzzy" feeling, a bit like having too much coffee but without the jitters. I find it does increase focus and help me to get work done, but it's not something I would like to take everyday. I wouldn't see myself using it more than 2x a month, unless I had a good reason.

Stephen

[garethnelsonuk]

I use modafinil myself on a daily basis and find it works wonders to keep me awake and doing things. Oddly enough, I don't get any feeling of a high from it unless i've taken a break for a few days - I merely lose the urge to sleep for several hours until it wears off. When I take 200mg in the morning (with another 200mg at noon on some days) it keeps me awake enough to keep going until bed time (sometime between 9pm and midnight, I have a majorly screwed up sleep pattern).

My question here is not a criticism of modafinil, I just wonder why so many seem to view it as the answer to everything. It works wonders for focus and wakefulness but isn't a general nootropic in my opinion.

[cmorera]

i like the stuff ... it helps me a lot just getting up in the morning ... i have a tendency to sleep for HOURS, like up to 12. this helps me a lot be more normal ... i only take like 30mg a day even =] and its that strong for me ...

i worry once i stop taking it, if i will be WORSE off than when i started ... or if any 'gains' are carried over. The last thing i want to do is just take something to mask or make worse an underlying problem ...

but modafinil is one of the only 'prescription' medicines i take, i cant even handle caffeine really. I think its good, i definitely function well on it. I wonder what LONG TERM changes are become a result of this however , like i dont want to go through an adderall/desoxyn withdrawl or become a zombie if i cease taking it =[ but for now i am satisfied to be getting my results even if they are illusionary.

[doug123]

Is it true that Modafinil actually has neuroprotective properties?

There is some exciting preliminary evidence that seems to strongly suggest that modafinil may indeed have neuroprotective properties:

Neurosci Lett. 1999 Nov 19;275(3):215-8.

A stereological study on the neuroprotective actions of acute modafinil treatment on 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine-induced nigral lesions of the male black mouse.

Aguirre JA, Cintra A, Hillion J, Narvaez JA, Jansson A, Antonelli T, Ferraro L, Rambert FA, Fuxe K.

Department of Physiology, School of Medicine, Malaga, Spain.

The effect of an acute administration of the vigilance-promoting drug modafinil ((+/-)(diphenyl-methyl)-sulfinyl-2 acetamide; Modiodal) on the nigrostriatal dopamine system was studied after damage induced by MPTP (1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine) by means of immunohistochemistry for tyrosine hydroxylase (TH) and a stereological method. MPTP (40 mg/kg) reduced from 24,380 +/- 902 to 13,501 +/- 522 and from 37,868 +/- 3300 to 20,568 +/- 1270, respectively, the number of TH immunoreactive (IR) and non-TH IR nigral neurons. Co-administration of Modafinil restored to normal the number of these neuronal populations. MPTP treatment induced also a reduction in the volume of TH IR neurons, which was counteracted by Modafinil administration. The data provide morphological evidence, based on unbiased stereological analysis, for a potential neuroprotective role of Modafinil, not only in dopaminergic neurons, but also with a similar magnitude in the non-DA nerve cell population of the substantia nigra after MPTP lesion.  These results suggest that Modafinil has a neuroprotective role in the substantia nigra via a still undefined mechanism in which a crucial role of DA uptake blockade should be excluded. Modafinil may therefore have a therapeutic potential in neurodegenerative processes such as those occurring in Parkinson's disease.
PMID: 10580713 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Expert Opin Pharmacother. 2006 May;7(7):837-48.

Neuroprotective agents in schizophrenia and affective disorders.

Krebs M, Leopold K, Hinzpeter A, Schaefer M.

Department of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, Charite-Universitatsmedizin Berlin, Campus Charite Mitte, Schumannstr. 20/21, D-10117 Berlin, Germany. Michael.Krebs@charite.de

With the exception of dementia, the use of neuroprotective agents in psychiatric disorders is not yet well established. However, recent data from brain imaging studies and clinical trials support the view that neurodegenerative mechanisms may play a role in the pathophysiology of schizophrenia and affective disorders. Further evidence for the use of neuroprotective agents can be drawn from the findings that second-generation antipsychotics, mood stabilizers and antidepressants have been shown to have neuroprotective effects in vitro and in vivo. Neuroprotective agents as add-on therapies (e.g., modafinil, erythropoietin, glycine, D-serine, memantine and celecoxib) are currently being evaluated in schizophrenia and related disorders. This paper reviews the current options for neuroprotective treatment approaches focusing on schizophrenia and affective disorders.PMID: 16634707 [PubMed - in process]

Acta Pharmacol Sin. 2004 Mar;25(3):301-5.

Neuroprotective mechanism of modafinil on Parkinson disease induced by 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine.

Xiao YL, Fu JM, Dong Z, Yang JQ, Zeng FX, Zhu LX, He BC.

Department of Pharmacology, Chongqing Medical University, Chongqing 400016, China. fjmin@21cn.com

AIM: To observe the neuroprotective mechanism of modafinil on Parkinson disease (PD) models induced by 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1, 2, 3, 6-tetrahydropyridine (MPTP). METHODS: The model of PD was induced by intraperitoneally injecting MPTP into C57BL/6J mice for 4 d. Modafinil (i.p., 50 or 100 mg/kg(-1)/d(-1)) was administered at 30 min following MPTP for 4 d and for another 10 d continuously. The contents of dopamine (DA), noradrenaline (NA), 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT), gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), glutamine (Glu) in the striatum, and the contents of GABA, Glu, malondialdehyde (MDA), and glutathione (GSH) in the substantia nigra (SN) of model mice were determined. RESULTS: Modafinil (50 and 100 mg/kg) prevented against the decrease of the contents of DA, 5-HT, and NA in the striatum and GSH, GABA in the SN induced by MPTP, but reduced the increase of MDA in the SN and GABA in the striatum induced by MPTP. Modafinil preferentially inhibited striatal GABA release, but it did not change the increase of nigrostriatal Glu release induced by MPTP. CONCLUSION: The anti-oxidation and the modulation of nigrostriatal GABA and striatal NA and 5-HT release contributed to the neuroprotective effects of modafinil on PD induced by MPTP.
PMID: 15000882 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Behav Pharmacol. 2006 Sep;17(5-6):453-62.
Neuroprotective effects of modafinil in a marmoset Parkinson model: behavioral and neurochemical aspects.

van Vliet SA, Vanwersch RA, Jongsma MJ, van der Gugten J, Olivier B, Philippens IH.
aDepartment of Diagnosis and Therapy, TNO Defence, Security and Safety, Rijswijk bDepartment of Psychopharmacology, Utrecht Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Rudolf Magnus Institute of Neurosciences, Utrecht University, Utrecht, The Netherlands.

The vigilance-enhancing agent modafinil has neuroprotective properties: it prevents striatal ischemic injury, nigrostriatal pathway deterioration after partial transsection and intoxication with 1-methyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine. The present study determines the protective effects of modafinil in the marmoset 1-methyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine Parkinson model on behavior and on monoamine levels. Twelve marmoset monkeys were treated with a total dose of 6 mg/kg 1-methyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine. Simultaneously, six animals received a daily oral dose of modafinil (100 mg/kg) and six animals received vehicle for 27 days. Behavior was observed daily and the locomotor activity, hand-eye coordination, small fast movements, anxiety-related behavior and startle response of the animals were tested twice a week for 3 weeks. Modafinil largely prevented the 1-methyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine-induced change in observed behavior, locomotor activity, hand-eye coordination and small fast movements, whereas the vehicle could not prevent the devastating effects of 1-methyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine. Dopamine levels in the striatum of the vehicle+1-methyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine-treated animals were reduced to 5% of control levels, whereas the dopamine levels of the modafinil+1-methyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine-treated animals were reduced to 41% of control levels. The present data suggest that modafinil prevents decrease of movement-related behavior and dopamine levels after 1-methyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine intoxication and can be an efficaceous pharmacological intervention in the treatment of Parkinson's disease.

PMID: 16940766 [PubMed - in process]