43 replies to this topic

[Ghostrider]

Force-Feeding Near for Fasting Inmate
http://www.sfgate.co...le.cgi?f=/n/a/2

Given how readily society accepts death in all its forms - war, lack of funding to combat the disease that today kills more people than all other causes combined, the death penalty, etc. Why is illegal to kill oneself? As an immortalist, I think that suicide is somewhat irrational myself, but it would seem like a contradiction for society as a whole to hold such a tolerant attitude towards death, but make suicide illegal. So why is suicide illegal?

[mitkat]

I've never quite been able to get my head around it myself. Seems stupid.

Are libertarians generally pro-right to suicide? Note how I didn't say pro-suicide, obviously

[Aegist]

i have always been a fervent supporter of suicide.

And I also suport people's right to choose suicide too.

The reason, I believe, that suicide is illegal, is because of 'slippery slope' that it opens up for people to murder by suicide. Whether it be by making it look like they suicided themselves, or by tricking them into suicide, or by simply psychologically manipulating someone to the point where they think they want to commit suicide, legalising it makes it more accessible as a tool for knocking people off.

I think that is their problem with it....

[eternaltraveler]

if it wasn't for the potential cryonics issue I wouldn't care whether or not suicide was illegal.

There are few situations where a person who is determined to die wouldn't be able to follow through with it in some way.

With the cryonics issue, however, it becomes a far more personal matter. There are many situations I can envision where I have hours or days left to live, and by the time I expire naturally my brain could be extremely damaged and it would be more advantageous to simply skip the pain and irreparable brain damage in favor of the admittedly small, but greater probability that my life could be saved by undergoing the procedure a few days or hours earlier under more controlled conditions.

[Live Forever]

I am pro suicide, pro death penalty, pro abortion...

Basically anything that means less people on the freeway in the morning.

[Lazarus Long]

If it was legal then insurance companies probably couldn't exclude it as a grounds for payment of life insurance. Another of those strange oxymorons we take for granted but how many would buy "death insurance" I guess?

[Ghostrider]

elrond, you are right, but I guess it really depends on how cyronics is viewed. Obviously, the person going under does not think that they are committing suicide, in fact, they can't they are already legally dead anyway. However, if I do someday need to be frozen, I would want to go under while in the most stable state possible. Hopefully by then there will be a loophole.

But yeah, I just don't see how it can be justified. If someone really wanted to take someone else out, they would just go Jihad and blow themselves up nearby. Making it illegal will not stop anything. And why could not insurance companies exclude suicide?

[Live Forever]

If it was legal then insurance companies probably couldn't exclude it as a grounds for payment of life insurance.  Another of those strange oxymorons we take for granted but how many would buy "death insurance" I guess?

I am fairly certain that insurance companies can exclude whatever they want to exclude, irregardless of legality.

[siberia]

The illegality of suicide is a Christian legacy. There are too few people that really want it to be legal, so it has just remained being illegal, I believe.

[Aegist]

The illegality of suicide is a Christian legacy. There are too few people that really want it to be legal, so it has just remained being illegal, I believe.

Thats easy to verify or deny. Find a non-christian nation and see if they still have it illegal..

Is suicide illegal in Europe? In the largely atheist nations that is...

[siberia]

I was talking about the west of course. And primly the USA. In Sweden where I'm from it isn’t a crime, but it was relatively recently that it was legalized. I think we're still largely influenced by christian values, e.g. suicide, abortion and homosexuality still is considered more or less immoral by many people, atheist or not. I admit I don't know what it's like in the rest of the world, but I never spoke of that.

Isn't it natural for any religion anywhere to ban suicide, as it hurts others? The absence of prohibition of suicide (as in that you are allowed to end your end your life as you please, I think there's legislation concerning suicide in public areas) in atheist nations makes me think that it's religion or similar ideologies that is responsible for criminalization of suicide.

Edited by siberia, 10 March 2007 - 12:09 PM.

[futureofscience]

I'm not entirely sure of the status in the UK, as it seems quite conflicting, but it seems that people who commit suicide cannot be buried in "consecrated ground" - i.e. a religious throwback more than a legal issue.

However, attempted suicide can lead to some rather strange legal consequences
http://news.bbc.co.u...set/4297695.stm
http://news.bbc.co.u...set/4499797.stm

[OutOfThyme]

I'd prefer suicide remaining illegal with a provision for euthanasia. A law against suicide in general, means to me that we as a society hold life to high standard and will not abide people the right to simply throw it away carelessly.

Someone suicidal is most likey suffering from a mental illness or other stressor that renders them incapable of good judgement. This can happen to any of us at any time. Should it happen to you, hope that you're surrounded by people or some support system that realizes your condition and seeks to help you. Rare is the justified suicide! Far more common is the hapless one; people ill-equipped to escape their emotional pain in need of help. To legalize suicide is to send a message that society no longer cares or is indifferent.

As for euthanasia; it should be well thought out, for sound reason, and done with professional care and guidance. That's my off-the-cuff thoughts on the issue, anyway.

[bacopa]

Devon here...I was hurt by a machine that erases the brains full functioning. I kid you not. Since than my brain is much slower and I forget lots of stuff.

I have thought alot about suicide as a result of this battle with the brain erasing machines. I often think, maybe killing myself would at least be less painful than living with brain damage.

What do you think most people would do in this situation...Also if anyone else has been victim or know people who have been victim to these machines please tell me. I think about suicide everyday mourning the brain that I used to have.

By the way I do believe in the death penalty because some people are just plain evil and deserve death,

[mitkat]

Devon, I don't want to pry, but what was this machine?

[bgwowk]

http://www.straightd...mns/040326.html

In the U.S. suicide has never been treated as a crime nor punished by property forfeiture or ignominious burial. (Some states listed it on the books as a felony but imposed no penalty.) Curiously, as of 1963, six states still considered attempted suicide a crime--North and South Dakota, Washington, New Jersey, Nevada, and Oklahoma.

[Aegist]

Most of those stories raise the real concern about people committing suicide: How it affects those left behind. Jumping in front of trains, drowning yourself in rivers, jumping off cliffs etc should be illegal, because it forces some poor sap to clean up the mess, or some poor train driver to be left with that scar the rest of his life. not to mention your family and friends.

If they legalise suicide (and having an un-enforced law making it illegal is the real culprit here) then that allows that supportive community to come into effect. Atm everyone knows that its 'illegal' so they do it in shame and secrecy. But if it was legal and you went to your local suicide clinic, there would be procedure in place. Perhaps you need to apply then there is a 2 month cooling off period where you get intensive therapy, and your family and friends are all informed. That gives the person committing suicide time and a second chance to reconsider, and then if at the end of that period they are still certain, then I say 'let em go'.

The family has said goodbye, they are OK with it, no one was able to change their minds.... It should be illegal to stop them.

[bgwowk]

If they legalise suicide...

Where is suicide illegal? This entire thread seems to be based on false legal information.

[Aegist]

OK, its not so much about the legality of suicide itself, so much as the fact that assisted suicide is illegal.

[Aegist]

Assisted Suicide
http://www.religious...rg/euthanas.htm

[OutOfThyme]

Most of those stories raise the real concern about people committing suicide: How it affects those left behind. Jumping in front of trains, drowning yourself in rivers, jumping off cliffs etc should be illegal, because it forces some poor sap to clean up the mess, or some poor train driver to be left with that scar the rest of his life. not to mention your family and friends.

If they legalise suicide (and having an un-enforced law making it illegal is the real culprit here) then that allows that supportive community to come into effect. Atm everyone knows that its 'illegal' so they do it in shame and secrecy. But if it was legal and you went to your local suicide clinic, there would be procedure in place. Perhaps you need to apply then there is a 2 month cooling off period where you get intensive therapy, and your family and friends are all informed. That gives the person committing suicide time and a second chance to reconsider, and then if at the end of that period they are still certain, then I say 'let em go'.

The family has said goodbye, they are OK with it, no one was able to change their minds.... It should be illegal to stop them

I’d emphasize that recklessly contributing to someone’s suicide is where any legal teeth should reside. Aside from making a political statement making suicide a crime does seem rather pointless. That Straight Dope article was interesting. Great website!

I don’t think the "blame the victim" strategy is constructive.
Yes, the impact of suicide is tragic and it leaves behind scars that will never heal completely; regardless, the onus should be on the healthy minds interacting with the lone impaired mind of the suicidal individual to affect change. It is everyone’s burden to be aware of their friends or family members well being. Its common place for warning signs to be ignored. No one wants to believe it could happen to someone they know. The shame and stigma doesn’t help. I’d be mighty pissed-off at family and friends if I ever snapped out of a deep, dark, depression--hellbent on killing myself--and was handed a razor instead of forced treatment. I haven't looked at the stats, but my hunch is that suicide is largely the result of depression. Depression is treatable. Depressed people with their impaired judgment, don’t think or communicate rationally and are in need of immediate help they often don't receive.

Suicide is an epidemic in this country. The living should be asking why so it doesn’t happen to them or someone they know and love.

[bacopa]

"suicide is painless,
it brings on many changes
and I can take it or leave it if I please"

I think if one is terminaly ill than suicide is an option...no one should suffer like some people do and maybe death is a nicer road to take rather than suffering terribly.

[Zarrka]

Suicide is most definantly illegal in australia and you are fined if you try it.

go ask any highschool student in my home town, they will tell you.

It should be illegal to kill yourself publicly. there is no reason for putting other people through the mental anguish of seeing that. Maybe we need suicide booths like in futurama.

People should have help avalible for them. always. and i will always feel that help is the first step before they kill themselves. What we dont want is a society where its normal for people to just be dying. It will completly mess up any stability this society has left.

but in some cases it might be justified but it should be the choice of the person, and they should have safe legal places to do it not, and not have to leave their guts for someone else. Maybe like a methodone clinic. where users can shoot up safely. but for those who want to kill themselves. it could even be a govermenet funded centre.

[Aegist]

but in some cases it might be justified but it should be the choice of the person, and they should have safe legal places to do it not, and not have to leave their guts for someone else. Maybe like a methodone clinic. where users can shoot up safely. but for those who want to kill themselves. it could even be a govermenet funded centre.

LOL, some religious group could start a clinic for people who want to commit suicide, and they take the people who want to die, put them on a table and tell them they are going to asist them die, and they inject a 'fatal dose' of whatever, but of course it isn't a killing chemical, it is a muscle relaxant which makes the person unable to move and in a bit of a comatose state. The religious people could then make that person think they've gone to heaven or hell, and then when the person wakes up out of it, they makea big deal out of the waking up, and the person might be tricked into fearing death, or loving life, and/or think that God wants them to live.

I'm not advocating this idea, but I just think it would be an interesting experiment.... (entirely unethical...but ethics always gets in the way of interesting experiments)

[Zarrka]

oh man shane.

you would have loved the early 60's in USA heading up some of their fantaic experements before they went and ruined all our fun with an "ethics" comitee for psycological research.

[Karomesis]

I am pro suicide, pro death penalty, pro abortion...

Basically anything that means less people on the freeway in the morning.

jesus, traffic must REALLY suck where you're at huh?

People should have help avalible for them. always. and i will always feel that help is the first step before they kill themselves. What we dont want is a society where its normal for people to just be dying. It will completly mess up any stability this society has left.

rest assured, the allmighty govts of the world would never let society be reduced to such a state; why, look at jolly england, they're about a step away from enacting thought crimes. and a breif perusal of the ACLU website today gave me little comfort the US wouldn't follow likewise.

the real question is why is ANY behavoir that doesn't harm anyone else any one elses business? including the massively overeaching and power hungry govt. am I to believe laws enacted to keep me from myself deserve any accomodation whatsoever?

think again. [ang]

[DJS]

Suicide pills with a 90 days waiting period. If you can't wait that long you can always go out get a bottle of scotch, some garden hose, a full tank of gas and head back to your garage. [wis]

Suicide being illegal is kind of silly if you think about it. Ethics aside, just as a matter of practicality it's not like society can really stop a person from killing hirselves if s/he is determined to do so.

And yes, like most on this thread I don't think there is a legitimate justification for making suicide attempts illegal. Of course, in reality I don't believe there has ever been a case where an individual went to prison or received any sort of harsh penalties for trying to take their life. Usually the state just uses the illegal status of suicide attempts to keep an individual in a psychiatric ward for a period of time (30 days?) so it can perform evaluation and counceling. I don't see this as being a particularly bad thing. Sometimes people just need some help getting their lives together and I'm sure this policy has saved many people's lives by preventing them making the rash decision of second attempt.

[Aegist]

At the risk of drawing hate from everyone: I think it is worth questioning the assumption that people's lives need saving...

OK, I probably don't really believe that at all, but it is one of those assumptions which people regularly forget to revisit occasionally. I mean, I know my life is very important, and I presume most people here feel the same way. "I don't want to die..." but to then presume that others need to have that enforced upon them is something I disagree with. But that isn't really the issue here.

What I am trying to get at, is the assumption that psychiatric help should be dispensed to 'help' someone who wants to kill themselves. ....This is such a dodgy topic, but I'll press on: 'helping' someone change their mind about whether they want to stay alive or not, could go both ways. Of course it is easy to argue for why alive is on the higher end of preferences for that spectrum, but why should outsiders take that challenge on?

I mean, its not like human lives are a limited resource.... and if that particular consciousness is broken enough to want to end it all, then wouldn't it be much easier to just let it?


(just some thoughts...)

[Shannon Vyff]

I voted for the Oregon act. There is no time limit on residency. I would certainly support a 'Right To Die' act in Texas, but with the currant political climate I think it is a ways off.

I did recently attend a public forum on 'End of Life Issues' , although it was dominated by funeral homes, hospices and cemeteries, I was heartened to see one activist passing out literature about 'Death With Dignity'.

[lunarsolarpower]

Not to get off-topic or anything but the original link didn't seem to work.

http://www.sfgate.co...e&sn=007&sc=307