79 replies to this topic

[nameless]

Hello all,

Are there any clinically tested supplements known to raise HDL? I am aware of high dose Niacin (which I can't take), and fish oil (which doesn't seem to raise my HDL), but is there anything else?

Anyone try krill oil, and if so, did you see any rise in HDL levels? Their studies claim that it raises HDL, but they are company-backed studies.

I have heard panthetine can raise HDL, but I'm not sure of the safety regarding taking high doses long term. Red yeast rice might give help HDL a little bit too, but I'm not sure it's worthwhile for (possibly) a 5% increase or so.

Anything else worth trying?

[maxwatt]

The Red Rice Yeast the FDA allows to be sold is inactive; Swanson Vitamin and several others were recently cited for selling the real thing, fined and force to recall the product. Oyster mushrooms contain the same active ingredient: lovastatin. Though it lowers cholesterol levels, it doesn't necessarily raise HDL levels.

Resveratrol has some evidence behind it for raising HDL levels in animal studies, and anecdotal evidence on this forum would support it, but only at relatively high d0ses (>400 mg/day).

[stephen_b]

Resveratrol didn't raise my relatively low (39 mg/dl) HDL, but I was only on 350 mg/day prior to my last blood workup. I'm not at 2g/day, so it will be interesting to see what difference there is next time.

[JonesGuy]

Tomato paste has been shown to raise HDL

[nameless]

Thanks for the replies. Regarding tomato paste, how much has to be eaten to raise HDL? I think I get a decent amount of tomato sauce per week, although I'm not sure if it's enough to raise HDL. I don't eat cans of tomato paste per day, or anything like that (and the idea of doing so doesn't seem too appetizing to me).

I've read that orange juice can also raise HDL, but it requires 3 glasses/day, which would most likely raise triglycerides to an unhealthy level. Any Sytrinol users out there get any benefits from it? I expect if Sytrinol does anything, it'd be more for ldl than hdl anyway.

I'm holding off on taking resveratrol until there has been at least one decent human study, or ideally several studies. Right now, it seems mostly guesswork as to dosage, and if it actually does anything beneficial in people. I suspect it does, but it could require several grams/day, for all we know.

The red yeast rice/fda issue confuses me. I know several companies sell it, and some claim standardized monacolin dosages even. I thought companies were allowed to sell it, so long as they didn't artificially raise the monacolin content and advertise the product regarding 'lovastatin' content, but maybe I was wrong. Red yeast rice actually contains a whole range of monacolins, as well as plant sterols, etc. that are supposed to be beneficial, but monacolin K is the most effective (natural lovastatin). I don't have a problem with the FDA regulating red yeast rice and preventing it over the counter... so long as a prescription version was made available too -- but it isn't. Based on reports and studies, it supposedly has a lot less side effects and requires a much smaller dosage than regular lovastatin does, to have the same beneficial effects.

Although red yeast rice might not be ideal for me anyway. If it helps HDL, it won't raise it a whole lot. I just mentioned it, as it's one of the few things my doctor recommended. Besides the standard (exercise more, eat right) sort of stuff (which I already do), doctors have little to offer for improving HDL, besides niacin, fibrates (sorta bad profile mortality-wise) or statins. And I think certain statins have even been reported to lower HDL in some people, I believe.

[brainengineer]

Ive done a fair amount of research on the HDL issue myself since I suffer from low #'s as well.

Niacin has the most evidence to support increasing HDL. You didnt mention why you cant take it. If it has to do with the flushing there are ways to mitigate that. I know it was a pain to get thru the flushing period, but Im up to 500mg 2x per day now without any flushing effects.

I tried pantethine for about 2 months and it didnt seem to radically improve my #'s so I gave up and tried to get more disciplined with my experimentation (1 new thing at a time, with at least 2 months to let it stabilize etc).

Krill Oil does look very interesting, but I would be careful to make sure you get NKO krill oil. I tried some from Vitacost that wasnt NKO and it didnt seem to help much (similar to what I saw with pantethine). But Krill oil is on my list for my next experiment (Im still experimenting with Niacin right now) and I do hope it works. I can tell you this much, if it does do wonders with my HDL Im going to be buying stock in the company. ;-)

--
BrainEngineer

[nameless]

My doctor advised me to stop taking niacin, as it was making my heart beat a little funny. I did get up to around 750mg/day, but even smallish doses (100mg) would speed up my heart rate a bit. On the higher doses, I also became tired right after taking it, so I had both a nice hot flush, rapid/odd beating heart and I felt exhausted.

So... my doctor suggested to just stop it to be safe. I can't say I minded dropping it.

I have also tried no-flush niacin, which true to its name, didn't give me a flush. Or any odd heartbeats. In fact, it basically had no affect at all. Well, that's not entirely true... I tested no-flush niacin for several months, and on my first test, I did have a minor raise in my hdl (almost 10%). But I tested it 2 months later, and it was lower than when I started, so I just chalked up the first result to chance/lab/normal fluctuation.

As for krill, it'd be great if it actually worked. But, I'm not sure I see the science behind it. It shouldn't be much more effective than a high dose fish oil, as Krill has tiny amounts of omega in it in comparison. Even if it's a lot more bioavailable, would it be that much better than a high dose of fish? And fish oil only has very modest, if any, HDL raising properties usually. Unless it's simply anasthaxin that raises HDL, but I'm not aware of any studies showing this.

If krill oil actually can raise HDL by 44% or so (as they claim), you'd think it'd be bigger than it is right now too. I mean, there should major studies, doctors recommending it, companies trying to make a synthetic version to sell as a prescription. I also find it odd that krill could be so effective, yet there are no reports from users of the stuff regarding major HDL increases. I'm not saying it wouldn't help, but I don't want to go spend $50 on the oil and find it raises my HDL by 1 point, which could be purely due to chance.

[JonesGuy]

You might want to read the abstracts on pubmed regarding tomato and HDL. Luckily, "tomato" and "HDL" bring up the studies really nicely.

[health_nutty]

Here is an article on 26g of cocoa raising HDL 24%:
http://www.life-enha...ate.asp?ID=1840

[nameless]

Ooh... thanks for the info, especially about the cocoa. I occasionally eat dark chocolate, but maybe I should try a small amount daily. Any recommended brands of powdered cocoa or dark chocolate bars?
I normally don't use powdered cocoa, but perhaps 1 oz/day of dark chocolate would help?
Although the study data seems to indicate the powdered form as being more effective. Curious if there are any cocoa polyphenols enriched bars on the market too. I normally just go for the 70-80%+ bars... I wonder if that'd be good enough.

The tomato data is also interesting, but I can't see myself eating half a can of tomato paste/sauce a day. Unless maybe V8 would work instead. Hmm... a glass of V8 + chocolate = big raise in HDL. That'd certainly be nice.

[brainengineer]

Are you diabetic, or pre-diabetic?? Im curious if that was what was impacting the fatigue & presumed heart palpitations.

Regarding the Krill. In all honesty if you have low HDL there are not many options. For what it would cost to run an experiment of taking NKO at 2g/day for 45 days and then get a cholesterol test it seems like a prudent investment.

If your results move less than 10% you know it wont help you. But if it does move it more than 15% you have found a winner.

--
BrainEngineer

[brainengineer]

Oh one more thing. I would stay away from the red yeast rice, i just dont see why anyone would take it. If you need a statin just take one, the red yeast rice formulations are not standardized etc so who knows what you are getting in terms of active ingredient.

Pantethine seems to be the only other viable option. You might want to research different forms of Pantethine as I believe there were some assertions (maybe studies) that indicated the softgel was more effective than the powder extract.

--
BrainEngineer

[nameless]

I'm not diabetic, or pre-diabetic (to the best of my knowledge). I've had my glucose and A1c checked and they routinely come back in the normal range. I do have cardiomyopathy, however, which is a general weakness to the heart muscle. But that's pretty much under control at this point, and I'd be considered sort of in the low-normal heart strength category (at least based on my last echo). The cardiomyopathy is also the reason I shouldn't drink red wine.

Fatigue from taking high dose niacin is a documented side-effect I think, but it's usually pretty rare. I guess I'm just lucky and happened to get one of the rarer side effects.

I've been considering trying NKO, although the logical part of my brain tells me that it most likely won't work. I guess I was hoping someone else out there already ran this experiment and could say if it helped or not.

I also was hoping that a vitamin D deficiency was causing my low HDL to a certain degree, but it doesn't appear to be the case. I was deficient (21), but now it's in a more healthy 41 range... and my HDL still stinks. On the plus side, a kitchen sink approach of supplements has helped to get my triglycerides into the normal range, a drop of over 100 points (vitamin D, magnesium, fish oil, cinnamon, flax lignans, grape extract). I suspect it was changing my brand of fish oil to a triglyceride form and possibly the cinnamon that did it.

Are there studies/info on the safety of long term, high dosage pantethine use? I don't want to cure one thing, and find out pantethine causes problems if taken for years, or something like that. Red yeast would be a last resort (or a statin), but I don't see a point to it right now, as they probably wouldn't help HDL much.

[scottl]

I do have cardiomyopathy, however, which is a general weakness to the heart muscle. But that's pretty much under control at this point, .

Hope you're taking Co q-10. Probably 100-200 mg (assuming no statin). Double if taking a statin.


"The cardiomyopathy is also the reason I shouldn't drink red wine"

What is the reason behind this?

[nameless]

Yep, I'm taking CoQ10. I was taking around 200mg/day, but several months ago bumped it up to 300mg/day. I'm considering trying the new Kaneka QH (ubiquinol) product too, maybe 100mg/day of that, with 50-100mg regular CoQ10, and see if I notice any difference. I'm also, of course, taking prescription medication too.

The reason I shouldn't drink red wine has to do with alcohol being bad for the heart muscle (or so I've been told). It's fine for arteries, cholesterol and such, in small amounts, but the heart muscle itself isn't so fond of alcohol. I do drink a glass of grape juice a day, so hopefully it has some of the same benefits wine does.

[ilanso]

I hope I'll survive to tell the end of the story. Suffice it to say, my HDL reached a new low (20 mg/dL) last Saturday, when I got finger-pricked at a street fair in Manhattan. Total was 165, TG=95, but the ratio TC/HDL is way high. I've tracked these for 20 years and my HDL range has been 22-42, but what scared me this time was that only last month, during my annual physical, the reading was 31. I lost 1/3 of my already measly and precious HDL [:o]
The only differences in my intake were connected: I dropped the 3g/d niacin and started on 1.5g/d 99% resv. Now I expected to lose a few mg on account of niacin, but not 11! Plus I hoped resv. to have a counterbalancing influence.
The reason behind my dropping B3 was the same that krillin outlined in June:

Niacinamide counteracts the beneficial effects of resveratrol, as anyone who has been paying attention here knows.

J Biol Chem. 2002 Nov 22;277(47):45099-107. Epub 2002 Sep 23.
Inhibition of silencing and accelerated aging by nicotinamide, a putative negative regulator of yeast sir2 and human SIRT1.
Bitterman KJ, Anderson RM, Cohen HY, Latorre-Esteves M, Sinclair DA.

Department of Pathology, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA.

The Saccharomyces cerevisiae Sir2 protein is an NAD(+)-dependent histone deacetylase that plays a critical role in transcriptional silencing, genome stability, and longevity. A human homologue of Sir2, SIRT1, regulates the activity of the p53 tumor suppressor and inhibits apoptosis. The Sir2 deacetylation reaction generates two products: O-acetyl-ADP-ribose and nicotinamide, a precursor of nicotinic acid and a form of niacin/vitamin B(3). We show here that nicotinamide strongly inhibits yeast silencing, increases rDNA recombination, and shortens replicative life span to that of a sir2 mutant. Nicotinamide abolishes silencing and leads to an eventual delocalization of Sir2 even in G(1)-arrested cells, demonstrating that silent heterochromatin requires continual Sir2 activity. We show that physiological concentrations of nicotinamide noncompetitively inhibit both Sir2 and SIRT1 in vitro. The degree of inhibition by nicotinamide (IC(50) < 50 microm) is equal to or better than the most effective known synthetic inhibitors of this class of proteins. We propose a model whereby nicotinamide inhibits deacetylation by binding to a conserved pocket adjacent to NAD(+), thereby blocking NAD(+) hydrolysis. We discuss the possibility that nicotinamide is a physiologically relevant regulator of Sir2 enzymes.

PMID: 12297502

Looks like I can't win for losing. Can't you not die of cardio in the short run and also hope to live a longer life?
As in all good American stories, this too may have a happy ending (yet to be verified). In researching for things that lower your HDL (to see what I did wrong) I came across this link. The apparent conflict is due to acute vs settled weight loss. I did recently lose a few fast pounds and must have caught the transient effect:

http://www.lipidsonl...striction&dpg=3

Caloric Restriction Acutely Lowers HDL-C Level
• Trials of very-low-calorie diets show that HDL-C levels decrease by 2–12 mg/dL during acute caloric restriction.
• After 12 wks, HDL-C returned to pretreatment range, and this trend was still apparent after 1 year.
• Therefore, benefits of weight-loss programs should not be assessed during acute caloric restriction.

Weight and HDL-C
• Inverse correlation between body weight and HDL-C is consistently observed in both men and women.
• For every 3 kg (7 lb) of weight loss, HDL-C levels increase 1 mg/dL.

[krillin]

The only differences in my intake were connected: I dropped the 3g/d niacin and started on 1.5g/d 99% resv. Now I expected to lose a few mg on account of niacin, but not 11! Plus I hoped resv. to have a counterbalancing influence.   
The reason behind my dropping B3 was the same that krillin outlined in June:

Niacin and niacinamide have very different effects. Niacin is good with respect to cholesterol and SIRT1, and lowers cAMP. Niacinamide doesn't help cholesterol, raises cAMP, stimulates GABA receptors, and is bad with respect to SIRT1.

[maestro949]

Caloric Restriction Acutely Lowers HDL-C Level
• Trials of very-low-calorie diets show that HDL-C levels decrease by 2–12 mg/dL during acute caloric restriction.
• After 12 wks, HDL-C returned to pretreatment range, and this trend was still apparent after 1 year.
• Therefore, benefits of weight-loss programs should not be assessed during acute caloric restriction.

Weight and HDL-C
• Inverse correlation between body weight and HDL-C is consistently observed in both men and women.
• For every 3 kg (7 lb) of weight loss, HDL-C levels increase 1 mg/dL.

Interesting, the 2nd set of numbers agree with my results. I've been on a mission to raise my HDLs and lower BP for some time now. My HDLs came in at 25 rouglhy 18 months ago. They've been slowly climbing at a rate of 1.00 points per month via a combination of :

- major change in diet - fewer calories but far from CR, better overall nutrition, minimal sugar intake, zero fast food, seafood 2-3x per week, less meat, more veggies, replaced coffee w/5-10cups green tea per day, replaced hydrogenated oil-based snacks with dark chocolate and i now drink more red wine. I've been phasing good things in, bad things out across the board. I'm 6'0 and have gone from 212 to 182 during this time.

- increased exercise - Now 5x+ / week rather than 1-2x / week

- Supplements - Omega 3s, Multi, Resveratrol (200-500mg), curcumin, grape seed extract, batch of anti-oxidants, CoQ10 and I take a baby aspirin 1x per day too.

- mediation. phased in 3 months ago. this seems to help BP temporarily, no clue whether it contributes to HDLs but I doubt it.

- I just changed jobs as the last place was a simply a mental sweatshop where the only rewards for hard work were... more hard work.

[ilanso]

Niacin and niacinamide have very different effects. Niacin is good with respect to cholesterol and SIRT1, and lowers cAMP. Niacinamide doesn't help cholesterol, raises cAMP, stimulates GABA receptors, and is bad with respect to SIRT1.

Yes, they have different effects at first, but one of former's metabolites may be the latter (albeit indirectly):

http://www.pdrhealth.../nia_0184.shtml

Nicotinic and nicotinamide are metabolized through different pathways. Nicotinic acid is not directly metabolized to nicotinamide. It undergoes a number of metabolic steps to yield NAD+ which in turn can be converted to nicotinamide. Nicotinamide can be directly converted to nicotinic acid. Nicotinic acid is metabolized to nicotinic acid mononucleotide (NicMN, nicotinic acid ribonucleotide). NicMN is also the first niacin metabolite to which dietary L-tryptophan is converted. NicMN is converted to nicotinic acid adenine dinucleotide (NicAD, desamido-NAD+). NicAD is converted in turn to NAD+. NAD+ has a number of metabolic opportunities. These include, the formation of nicotinamide, NADP+, nicotinamide 5'-mononucleotide (NMN), cyclic ADP-ribose and nicotinic acid dinucleotide phosphate (NAADP). NAD+ also serves as the substrate for mono- (ADP-ribosyl)ation and poly(ADP-ribosyl)ation reactions. Nicotinamide is converted to nicotinic acid via the enzyme nicotinamidase. Nicotinamide is also metabolized to NMN which in turn is converted to NAD+.

[stephen_b]

Garlic and vitamin C, when taken together, seem to lower blood pressure.

Stephen

[lauritta]

First of all, nameless, what about your diet? What do you eat? Did you eat lot of red meat, butter, milk, cheese, processed food, sugar? what about fish? what kind of oil you use? Do you exercise? Do you smoke? Let's see the basic first.
Cheers!

[nameless]

I don't think my diet is influencing my HDL, unless it's because I don't eat enough meat/beef. I believe heavy beef eaters tend to have higher HDL levels, but they also get high LDL and other bad things too.

I eat very few (or no) processed carbs, low sugar, no butter, rarely cheese (I hate most cheeses), rarely beef (maybe once a month, if that), chicken, turkey, Quorn (nice fake meat), and I use olive oil when cooking. My bread/spaghetti is wheat, but I have been trying to restrict that too lately, as too much wheat can be bad.

I eat fish maybe once a week, maybe every 2 weeks. I get plenty of fish oil, so I don't see that mattering really.

I exercise 3-4 times a week, on an exercise bike, about 45 minutes each time. And nope, never smoked.

If I had to guess, my bad HDL is mostly hereditary, as any diet and exercise changes I have tried haven't mattered a whole lot.

Edited by nameless, 18 September 2007 - 04:38 AM.

[ilanso]

nameless, you say your HDL stinks. Is it really lower than mine?
Here are a few links to appease your concerns; think they might apply to you? (I do to me)

http://www.drmirkin....chive/6639.html

As a general rule, when using HDL levels to predict a heart attack in people on very low-fat diets, you can add about 15 points to HDL levels.

http://www.kurzweila...es/art0441.html?

One further note on the role of HDL is in order. HDL appears to have some protective role if total serum cholesterol is elevated. However, if your total cholesterol is low enough-150 milligrams per deciliter(mg/dl) or less-then it does not seem to matter what the level of HDL is. For example, the Tarahumaras (Indians who live in the Sierra Madre region of northwestern Mexico) have an average serum cholesterol level of 125 mg/dl but a very low average HDL level of 25 mg/dl. Despite their very low HDL and very high total cholesterol-to-HDL ratio (over 5), they have virtually no heart disease or atherosclerosis. Other studies have also found that nonindustrial societies consuming a low-fat diet have low rates of coronary heart disease despite low-HDL levels, suggesting that low HDL is most notably a risk factor only for populations with high-fat diets.

[nameless]

Thanks for those links. They do make me feel a little better. Although I doubt I can convince my cardiologist that they are accurate.

My HDL for the past two years have ranged between 27-34. My last reading came in at the low point, 27.
If I add 15 to the number, it'd be considered normal. But... well, I'd really prefer the regular normal of 40+, as I am sure you would too.

My overall cholesterol isn't 125 or lower though. Last reading came in at around 180, I think. And that'd be fine, if my HDL wasn't quite so stinky. I am currently trying krill oil, and *cross my fingers* maybe it'll help a bit with the lipid numbers. I'll find out in around a month or so.

[ilanso]

Looks like I may be current holder of the lowest HDL record. Giving you advice is like the pot calling the kettle black [lol]
If you keep experimenting with new things, these frequent doctor visits may become a nuisance.
To reduce the feedback cycle, have you considered, like myself, purchasing one of these do-it-@-home machines?

http://www.shopqas.c...asp?idproduct=5

The CardioChek is the first and only complete health management product that can perform multiple tests on one device. Color-coded strips and MEMo chips provide easy identification and correct calibration. As new tests become approved, the device is easily upgraded to include new test chemistries.
Test all of these blood chemistries with one instrument:

    * Glucose
    * Total Cholesterol
    * HDL (good) Cholesterol
    * LDL (good) Cholesterol**
    * Blood Ketone
    * Triglycerides

This version of the CardioChek is intended for personal use. It does not include any test strips, giving you the freedom to purchase the test strips that meet your specific needs. Please see our list of available CardioChek test strips or purchase the CardioChek Starter Kit which includes 4 sets of strips.

[nameless]

The device itself appears somewhat reasonably priced, but those test strips are expensive. Is it accurate, at least?

And unfortunately I have to see my cardiologist like every 3-4 months anyway, for a check-up, so asking for a cholesterol prescription isn't a big deal to me. I can also get blood test prescriptions through my family doctor, if needed. It would be easier if I could check it myself, at home, but I can't see paying that much when I can get tests for free now.

[ilanso]

It's getting late, so let me just throw in a few random HDL tidbits:

Metformin caused a slight elevation of HDL-cholesterol (P < 0.05)

women taking calcium supplements, HDL cholesterol levels and HDL:LDL ratio increased (7%) more than in the placebo group

DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone) also often lowers LDL and raises HDL
but:
In men or women, extremely high doses (1000 mg. or more per day, or the use of micronized DHEA powder or DHEA-alcohol solutions at more than about 200 mg. per day) may dangerously limit the output of the heart in response to exercise.

Vigorous aerobic exercise (especially running) is the best method of increasing HDL levels.

Monounsaturated fats and medium chain triglycerides (MCT) are safer types of fats. MCT can dramatically improve LDL/HDL ratios and can be used as a substitute for ordinary fats in many applications

[tintinet]

Low carb diet raised my HDL from 65 mg/dl to 105 mg/dl....

[ilanso]

Low carb to the benefit of what? Fat or protein? If the former, it would be consistent with the notion that low-fat diets tend to lower HDL.

[health_nutty]

ilanso and nameless,

Have you tried 50g of tomato paste a day (or equivalent amount of tomato products) plus 25-50g of unsweetened cocoa powder per day?