121 replies to this topic

[e Volution]

I've heard that instead of weekly fasts, it is most beneficial to do a once yearly 7-day fast.
Dr. Thomas Seyfried discusses it in the audio clip on this page.

I've been thinking about this too.. Mainly to dip into an autophagic state for an extended period of time. I'm thinking of starting out at 3 days, then revert back to my normal 18/6 routine. Will do a water fast, since I think juice fasting defeats the whole point when you start introducing fructose and whatnot into the equation. Can't see going past 7 days ever though.

Anyone here do extended fasting? Googling around to various forums on fasting and dedicated sites reveals that most of the stuff is tied to religious/new-age themes that aren't really of any interest to me. My goal is pure autophagy for its own sake. Burning a few lbs of fat wouldn't hurt either I guess.

If anyone here HAS done it.. Please share... How long was it? Did you take supplements along the way? What were your experiences/results?

Did you take electrolytes/minerals for cardiac stability? I just realized that many of my LEF supps are in soybean oil (not happy about that - I eat Paleo and PUFA soybean oil is huge no-no) so that plus my usual 6-8 fish oil capsules might be enough fat calories to thwart autophagy perhaps? Any supps that I should avoid outright on extended fasting or any supps that will enhance the process?

I've also been mulling over this one... We really need to try figure out what the theoretical maximum beneficial fast would be, as I am sure like everything else it has a U-shaped curve. Then obviously how often this should be executed. Will checkout that link later when I get a chance.

The longest I have gone is around 60 hours (IIRC)... It was a great feeling to be fully freed from food & digestion for that long, but was a tad inconvenient and whilst I felt fine I certainly felt pretty far from normal by the end of it. However it was my first extended-fast and had only been on Paleo for a few months. Finished it up with a light body-weight workout and about $50 of good Lebanese food

The supplement issue is the biggest question in my mind, I think it really highlights the cross-roads of Paleo vs Medical Science IMO. Should we refrain from all supplements? Well this came up during my last fast as I was surveying my supplement shelf; I was musing about skipping all supplementation when Vitamin D3 crossed my eye. My attraction to fasting stems from Paleo, so I realised that our ancestors would still have been getting their D3 from the sun despite no nutrient intake, so that is one supplement there is a good argument to take even whilst fasting. But then what about minerals found in water? I have read our ancestors would have consumed numerous minerals including Magnesium, Potassium, and Calcium from 'natural' water sources (I need to do more research on what can be commonly found in fresh water) so those are more supplements that perhaps should be thought about when fasting as I am sure our ancestors would have still been drinking water despite having no luck getting a feed. Then I wonder; well maybe supplementing whilst fasting despite it being not Paleo would be even better as it could increase Autophagy efficiency/effectiveness in a similar vein to how CRON > CR despite throughout evolutionary history most organisms would only have been practising CR in times of famine yet still have the evolved 'maintenance and repair' adaptation. I have read that it used to be very popular way to lose weight by simply not eating and taking vitamin supplements so perhaps there is something in that (someone has gone over a year without eating doing this). Then finally, just because I enjoy pondering the lives of our ancestors, I imagine that our Paleolithic ancestors primarily subsisted on animals for food essentials (protein/fat), but when times were lean and they had trouble acquiring animal protein they would likely have supplemented with or increased plant intake. For for the sake of simplicity a low-calorie plant food can essentially be viewed similar to a vitamin supplement; so perhaps it is a common aspect of our evolutionary milieu to have zero/insignificant protein and/or fat consumption but phyto and vitamin/mineral rich nutrients coming from plant foods. So maybe it could be a good idea to periodically do a fast that includes some (or plenty of) veggies and possibly even some glucose/fructose from fruit; in fact perhaps this is superior as it is possible that our hungry ancestors would have never gone extended periods without ANY food and they would have been supplementing with anything they could find from herbs to insects. I think this caloric intake would still be pretty insignificant overall compared to proper-feeding so the autophagy and associated mechanisms from fasting would still be happening. So maybe like CRON is optimising CR, we could optimise Intermittent Fasting by restricting fat or protein or carbohydrates (or all of them or a combination) whilst consuming vitamins/minerals from supplements or low-calorie plant foods. But then perhaps I am too ignorant on the biological underpinnings of Fasting and am just focusing on the intuitive & easy to understand Autophagy component.

[Soma]

Anyone here do extended fasting? Googling around to various forums on fasting and dedicated sites reveals that most of the stuff is tied to religious/new-age themes that aren't really of any interest to me. My goal is pure autophagy for its own sake. Burning a few lbs of fat wouldn't hurt either I guess.

If anyone here HAS done it.. Please share... How long was it? Did you take supplements along the way? What were your experiences/results?

Did you take electrolytes/minerals for cardiac stability? I just realized that many of my LEF supps are in soybean oil (not happy about that - I eat Paleo and PUFA soybean oil is huge no-no) so that plus my usual 6-8 fish oil capsules might be enough fat calories to thwart autophagy perhaps? Any supps that I should avoid outright on extended fasting or any supps that will enhance the process?

I completed a 7 day water fast last year and, I have to say, it was grueling. This summer I may attempt a 10+ day water-only fast. I didn't do this for any religious/spiritual purposes.

Yeah, you're right- "juice fasting" is a misnomer. It isn't really fasting.

I didn't take any supplements or electrolyte mixes on my first 7 day water fast. I may take some electrolytes on the 10 day fast (if I am even able to complete it).

Some observations from my extended fast:

A few days in you experience pronounced muscle weakness and/or intermittent aching pain. Headaches become a constant after the 2nd or third day. Sporadic nausea sets in around the 4th day. It is extremely difficult to get comfortable and you tend to have anxious sleep. Hunger never disappears but gradually dissipates, but when it sets in it, is a hunger like you have never experience before. I also noticed a rapid heartbeat throughout the fast, hovering around 80 bpm. And lastly, I experienced horrendous breath that no amount of brushing or mouthwash was able to defeat (I normally have no breath issues).

All in all, it is rather difficult and I can see why most people just don't have the determination to complete an extended fast.

Edited by Soma, 12 July 2010 - 02:40 PM.

[hypnotoad]

Anyone here do extended fasting? Googling around to various forums on fasting and dedicated sites reveals that most of the stuff is tied to religious/new-age themes that aren't really of any interest to me. My goal is pure autophagy for its own sake. Burning a few lbs of fat wouldn't hurt either I guess.

If anyone here HAS done it.. Please share... How long was it? Did you take supplements along the way? What were your experiences/results?

Did you take electrolytes/minerals for cardiac stability? I just realized that many of my LEF supps are in soybean oil (not happy about that - I eat Paleo and PUFA soybean oil is huge no-no) so that plus my usual 6-8 fish oil capsules might be enough fat calories to thwart autophagy perhaps? Any supps that I should avoid outright on extended fasting or any supps that will enhance the process?

I completed a 7 day water fast last year and, I have to say, it was grueling. This summer I may attempt a 10+ day water-only fast. I didn't do this for any religious/spiritual purposes.

Yeah, you're right- "juice fasting" is a misnomer. It isn't really fasting.

I didn't take any supplements or electrolyte mixes on my first 7 day water fast. I may take some electrolytes on the 10 day fast (if I am even able to complete it).

Some observations from my extended fast:

A few days in you experience pronounced muscle weakness and/or intermittent aching pain. Headaches become a constant after the 2nd or third day. Sporadic nausea sets in around the 4th day. It is extremely difficult to get comfortable and you tend to have anxious sleep. Hunger never disappears but gradually dissipates, but when it sets in it, is a hunger like you have never experience before. I also noticed a rapid heartbeat throughout the fast, hovering around 80 bpm. And lastly, I experienced horrendous breath that no amount of brushing or mouthwash was able to defeat (I normally have no breath issues).

All in all, it is rather difficult and I can see why most people just don't have the determination to complete an extended fast.

Wow.. good to know. I think if I were to fast for an extended period I would definitely consume electrolytes. Tachycardia episodes sound like your worst side effect. Things like headaches and hunger I can deal with, but when your heart starts to race on its own it can be very worrying in a weird "uh oh - this ain't right" sorta way. Of course on an empty stomach any sort of supps tend to sit there and feel yucky anyway.. can only imagine that what days and days of an empty stomach + pills would feel like.

Thanks for the honest feedback.. you read so many "I really felt in touch with my inner chi" reports on fasting.. I figured the reality wasn't so touchy-feely as they all talk about.

Edited by hypnotoad, 12 July 2010 - 11:31 PM.

[Soma]

Of course on an empty stomach any sort of supps tend to sit there and feel yucky anyway.. can only imagine that what days and days of an empty stomach + pills would feel like.

Yeah, I don't like the idea of taking supplements while fasting. One of the purposes of fasting is to give your body a vacation from having to expend energy on digestion and assimilation. This energy is then liberated to utilized for other purposes in the body, such as healing, that might not happen (at least as quickly or efficiently) otherwise. I'm not sure if that is true, but the benefits of fasting seem to speak for themselves.

I think that a liquid electrolyte supplement that one could add to their water would be a wise addition to fast, though. Maybe something like this.

Thanks for the honest feedback.. you read so many "I really felt in touch with my inner chi" reports on fasting.. I figured the reality wasn't so touchy-feely as they all talk about.

Yeah, I have read about those experiences as well. Maybe I have never fasted long enough to reach a "zen" state. This hasn't been my purpose for fasting, although I would obviously welcome the experience should I ever encounter it.

[e Volution]

Yeah, I don't like the idea of taking supplements while fasting. One of the purposes of fasting is to give your body a vacation from having to expend energy on digestion and assimilation...

I think that a liquid electrolyte supplement that one could add to their water would be a wise addition to fast, though. Maybe something like this.

Like I waffled on about above I think this is too simplistic an idea; straight away what about Vitamin D3? Surely a "natural" fast would/could include time spent in the sun. Then you talk about electrolytes, well we didn't evolve in a vacuum, traditionally perhaps we would have ingested them in higher quantities from mineral/spring/natural water.

I've just looked up the breakdown of some common spring waters. Here are some figures than I found (most from manufacturer):

Alkalinity 200 mg/L (CaCO3)
Silica 85 mg/L
Calcium 26 mg/L
Magnesium (Mg+) 36 mg/L
Potassium (K+) 19 mg/L
Sodium (Na+) 21 mg/L
Bicarbonates 200 mg/l

That is a lot of dissolved solids that will add up! Over a few days with 100% filtered water you are looking at a whole fistful of supplements.

[Soma]

That is a lot of dissolved solids that will add up! Over a few days with 100% filtered water you are looking at a whole fistful of supplements.

So what are you suggesting? That one might as well take supplements because they are already getting "a whole fistful of supplements" from their spring water?

Or are you advocating the use of distilled water during a fast? That's is indeed viable option.

Or are you intimating that one should "dry fast". That is fasting without anything, even water. This I would not recommend.

[e Volution]

Sorry I was a little ambiguous, what I am saying is if your water is completely filtered (everything removed) that equates to a handful of supplements over a long [non-dry] fast. In addition, "natural" water sources may have greater abundance of these elements than tap water so a similar albeit reduced problem remains.

[Sillewater]

Some great points e Volution.

Regarding the water, I remember reading a paper about starvation a while ago (can't find it right now), it stated that concentrations of electrolytes and minerals in the cells and plasma go up. I don't know if anyone else has noticed but on a fast I tend to not get thirsty and don't drink a lot of water (dehydration reactions?).

It's great to use evolutionary reasoning to try and mold our lifestyle but in terms of fasting, what are we trying to do? Increase autophagy? Increase insulin/leptin sensitivity? Increase BDNF (to protect our neurons). Probably all of these things, and what's been shown as far as I have read is that the less calories you consume the more autophagy there is, and the better the metabolic milieu is. Just take a look at CR-folk. (There

So if you choose to drink mineral water or take supplements during fasts so be it, what you have to watch for is your caloric intake on days you do eat. Even Martin@Lean Gains and Brad Pilon@EatStopEat don't feast on their non-fast days.

[Sillewater]

Some relevant studies:

Am J Med. 1971 Feb;50(2):233-40.

Fasting--a review with emphasis on the electrolytes.
Weinsier RL.

PMID: 4925695 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

The effects of fasting in Ramadan

ELECTROLYTE AND FLUID STUDIES DURING WATER DEPRIVATION AND STARVATION IN HUMAN SUBJECTS, AND THE EFFECT OF INGESTION OF FISH, OF CARBOHYDRATE, AND OF SALT SOLUTIONS

Medical implications of controlled fasting.

Edited by Sillewater, 13 July 2010 - 03:06 AM.

[Soma]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed but on a fast I tend to not get thirsty and don't drink a lot of water (dehydration reactions?).

Yeah, I have had no thirst on my fasts. I kind of feel like I have to force myself to drink.

[JLL]

It's the opposite for me. I get a dry mouth easily when I'm fasting.

[Soma]

It's the opposite for me. I get a dry mouth easily when I'm fasting.

That's the thing- I do as well. Hence the perpetual bad breath and horrible taste in my mouth while I'm fasting. I still don't get thirsty.

[xEva]

I fast frequently (short) and last month completed 8-day fast. It becomes easy with practice. If you want to fast a week, you should start with 36h fasts once a week. First with water, then dry. You should clean GI tract with salt purge before a dry or extended fast. Even 36h fast is easier on an empty GIT.

First 2 days you live off glycogen. Then you start getting into ketosis. By day 4-5 you should be in ketosis. By day 8-10 you brain will start utilizing ketones as well. That's when you'll completely adapt to fasting and your weight loss will drop to only 100-300g/day. Before this happens, most people, especially novices, will experience a worsening of condition. This is due to adaptation problems.

You will need 0.5-1g of salt (the main electrolyte) daily, especially when you feel thirsty, but water tastes nasty.

You should not take any supplements, except some B vitamins, especially B1. To enter ketosis, you can use the same thing as BBs: ALA and ALCAR, but only in the beginning. You can also take MCT oil starting the 3rd day of the fast.

You can expedite your entrance into ketosis by fasting dry and by physical activity (to loose the glycogen).

You don't need much water in the first couple of days anyways, because glycogen contains water, and as you use it, lot's of it is freed. Regardless how much water you drink, the weight loss in the first several days are mainly due to water (it's the same effect as when people induce mild ketosis of Atkins).

Re: bad breath, it's from bacteria in GI tract. Taking an antibiotic before a fast helps it a lot (i like Bactrim DS, just one pill).

[xEva]

I get a dry mouth easily when I'm fasting.

Try salting your water to taste.

[Sillewater]

I forgot to mention that on the days I fast I supplement with ALCAR. Also I supplement with ALA with my evening meals (better nutrient partitioning).

JPEN J Parenter Enteral Nutr. 2010 May-Jun;34(3):295-9.

Caloric restriction and L-carnitine administration improves insulin sensitivity in patients with impaired glucose metabolism.
Molfino A, Cascino A, Conte C, Ramaccini C, Rossi Fanelli F, Laviano A.

Department of Clinical Medicine, Sapienza University, Rome, Italy.

Abstract
BACKGROUND: Reduced circulating and tissue carnitine levels, possibly leading to impaired mitochondrial function, have been postulated to be involved in the pathogenesis of insulin resistance. However, whether L-carnitine administration may improve insulin sensitivity in patients with impaired fasting glucose (IFG) or type 2 diabetes mellitus (DM-2) is still controversial. The aim of the study was to explore the role of L-carnitine supplementation in influencing insulin sensitivity. METHODS: A randomized controlled study involving adult outpatients was designed. Adult patients referred to the outpatient clinic and within 10 days of the diagnosis of IFG or DM-2 were consecutively enrolled. Exclusion criteria were concomitant antidiabetic therapy and modifications of lifestyle during the previous 4 weeks. Patients were randomly assigned to receive a hypocaloric diet for 10 days (group C; n = 8) or the same dietetic regimen in addition to oral L-carnitine (2 g twice daily) supplementation (group LC; n = 8). Oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT), fasting plasma insulin levels, and homeostasis model assessment of insulin resistance (HOMA-IR) were assessed at the beginning and end of the study. Data were statistically analyzed using the Student t test for paired and unpaired data. RESULTS: OGTT at 2 hours improved in both groups. Only in the L-carnitine-supplemented group did plasma insulin levels and HOMA-IR significantly decrease when compared to baseline values. CONCLUSIONS: Considering the role of caloric restriction in increasing the intestinal uptake of carnitine, the results suggest that oral L-carnitine administration, when associated with a hypocaloric feeding regimen, improves insulin resistance and may represent an adjunctive treatment for IFG and DM-2.

PMID: 20467011 [PubMed - in process]

Found this over at CR Society, posted by Al Pater. Caloric restriction MAY increase uptake of carnitine. Cool.

@Lexx,

Why vitamin B1? But I do agree that depleting glycogen stores definitely helps get into ketosis faster. Since I consume a low-carb diet its fairly easy for me to become ketotic, but whenever I eat a lot of carbs the day before, it takes much longer (so I'll have to do the fast again) to get the high from the ketones.

I've experimented with working out in the morning and working out before breaking the fast. In my opinion working out later in the day is better for body composition. While in the morning, it might cause too much catabolism (cortisol levels are already high, then they become higher with exercise and you don't stop catabolism/start anabolism with a meal). However on an evolutionary basis we were probably more active when our leptin levels were lowest. Since leptin levels follow a diurnal cycle, its low in the morning. But with fasting it can decrease by 50% easily. But I still like working out in the morning before a fast. I just hope that on the days I do not fast the anabolism is good enough to outdo the catabolism on fasting days.

Also ever since I started consuming 1g/kg/day of complete protein, my muscle gains have stalled. However that's what I want. The only thing now is that I want to maintain. Currently my BMI is 23.6 and I have 10-11% bodyfat.

Edited by Sillewater, 14 July 2010 - 07:52 PM.

[xEva]

Why vitamin B1?

I go by old studies done on fasting humans back in the 60s and 70s by Oliver Owen and George Cahill. They used a multivitamin, which in those days was B's + C + iron (I know). B1, or benfotiamine, is numero uno for enzymatic activity etc. But I take them only once on the first or the second day, when I feel that I need help.

But I do agree that depleting glycogen stores definitely helps get into ketosis faster. Since I consume a low-carb diet its fairly easy for me to become ketotic, but whenever I eat a lot of carbs the day before, it takes much longer (so I'll have to do the fast again) to get the high from the ketones.

agree

I've experimented with working out in the morning and working out...

I'm not that methodical in my exercise routines. When I do IF, I like to run first thing in the morning. But throughout my life I preferred working out in the late afternoon. I've always worked out in a fasted state, since I was a kid in the school athletics team.

But here is my problem now and I hope to hear good suggestions: In contrast to the article you quote, both frequent fasting and regular workouts lead to increase in fasting glucose levels. After a series of IF leading into 8d fast last month, my BG does not drop below 92. I get up and can be in the early 100s already. I don't know what it was before, because I just got a glucose monitor. This worries me. I checked out the info and found that both CR or low carb diet do the same. This is an adaptation response to carb deprivation. Muscles learn to ignore glucose.

And exercise does it too. My blood glucose rises about 10-15 points after a workout. It rises only 5 points if I just walk. I can drop BG by a few points only by doing some careful calisthenics. Now I know why last winter working out during my fasts had a paradoxical effect of giving me energy instead of depleting it: exercise rises my BG level (presumably due to gluconeogenesis).

I'd like to know how to reverse this post-fast high BG levels and seeming insulin resistance.

Edited by Lexx, 15 July 2010 - 12:25 AM.

[Sillewater]

Well my fasts never go beyond 24 hours.At 24 hours my fbg is ~4.4 (80). Recently I have cut my fast shorter by 1 hour. Basically 1 hour before I eat my dinner I eat small amounts of food, some carbs (~15g) and protein (~15g) [usually just a salad with lean chicken breast, the carbs come from oats or whatever I feel like] which not only satiates my appetite for dinner but maybe helps return insulin sensitivity to your fat and muscle cells before consuming a large meal. And the rising blood glucose in the morning is known as the dawn phenomenon:

Diabetes. 1984 Dec;33(12):1150-3.

Demonstration of a dawn phenomenon in normal human volunteers.
Bolli GB, De Feo P, De Cosmo S, Perriello G, Ventura MM, Calcinaro F, Lolli C, Campbell P, Brunetti P, Gerich JE.

Abstract
To ascertain whether the dawn phenomenon occurs in nondiabetic individuals and, if so, whether it is due to an increase in glucose production or a decrease in glucose utilization, we determined plasma concentrations of glucose, insulin, C-peptide, and counterregulatory hormones, as well as rates of glucose production, glucose utilization, and insulin secretion at one-half-hourly intervals between 1:00 and 9:00 a.m. in eight normal volunteers. After 5:30 a.m., plasma glucose, insulin, and C-peptide concentrations all increased significantly; rates of glucose production, glucose utilization, and insulin secretion also increased (all P less than 0.05). Plasma cortisol, epinephrine, and norepinephrine increased significantly from nocturnal nadirs between 4:00 and 6:30 a.m. Plasma growth hormone, which had increased episodically between 1:00 and 4:30 a.m., decreased thereafter nearly 50% (P less than 0.05). Plasma glucagon did not change significantly throughout the period of observation. These results indicate that a dawn-like phenomenon, initiated by an increase in glucose production, occurs in nondiabetic individuals. Thus, early morning increases in plasma glucose concentrations and insulin requirements observed in IDDM and NIDDM may be an exaggeration of a physiologic circadian variation in hepatic insulin sensitivity induced by antecedent changes in catecholamine and/or growth hormone secretion.

When I experimented with the ketogenic diet my fbg was always around 5.0 (currently on 100g of carbs a day my fasting glucose is 4.4[80]). The thing is I don't think this is too much to worry about because its not pathologic. What you should be doing is testing post-prandial glucose levels (I never let mine go above 5.5 [100]) and you HbA1c levels. Also maybe do a oGTT on yourself. I haven't done one on myself in a while (but last time I tested 6 months ago 2hr post-prandial with 100g of glucose was 4.1[73]). I have no interest in consuming that much glucose to tell me something I already know.

I think as long as you don't switch between low-carb and high-carb diets you're probably fine. I came up with the 100g of carbs because this is what I found as the minimum that keeps my fbg and helps maintain my insulin sensitivity. The only thing is I don't know on which diet the HbA1c levels are lowest. I've had two done 4 months into low-carb diet (<60g) then 2 months into the transition into 100g of carbs/day. On the former my HbA1c was 5.0% on the latter it was 4.7%. I remember reading the Kitavans have HbA1c levels near the 4.0% level (and their diet is high in carbs).

And with the CR thing and insulin sensitivity/resistance. There was a post on CRSociety showing a study saying that 40% are insulin resistant and 60% are insulin sensitive (I remember the numbers for the 60% were superb). This probably comes down to genetics and your environment as you developed from a fetus into adolescent. e.g. Ectomorph vs. Endomorph, Skinny-fat insulin resistance vs. Obese insulin resistance.

Edited by Sillewater, 15 July 2010 - 01:05 AM.

[xEva]

I admit I'm new to this possible diabetes thing. I was checking my BG for a few days already and the lowest it was 83 = 4.6 once in the evening. In the last few days FBG --not at dawn but from 9 to 11 AM-- is 92-113 (=5.1-6.3) and the highest I've seen is postprandial 148 = 8.2. I'm just worried that it never drops and always stays around 90-100 (5-6). My eyesight is getting worse, I feel, because of it. And nothing kicks it down. Exercise rises it, and the harder the work out, the higher the rise. WTF?

The impression I got is that once you really start on IF or low carb, there is no going back. I went back to high carb, because it's summer and I like fruits and berries. Well, I like ice cream too... But it's not just carbs. Proteins do the same to me. The whole thing is due to gluconeogenesis. What's there left to eat? High octane MCT oil?

[Sillewater]

What's your diet like Lexx? Gone to see a doctor?

[xEva]

What's your diet like Lexx? Gone to see a doctor?

Thanks for your interest! I have a good diet, never liked refined carbs, even as a kid, and always' been super fit. So the standard advice to people with type 2 diabetes does not apply to me. My BMI is 19-20 and I exercise daily.

I figured it out why I had such dismal BG readings after my last fast. Search "low-carb high FBG insulin resistance". I have to eschew all fats for at least 3 days when switching from ketosis of starvation to "glucosis" of hi-carb eating (fruits and berries + corn -- hey, it's summer!). It's because of certain inertia of homeostasis. When going into ketosis, you drop carbs and rise fats, and when going the other way, from ketosis to "glucosis" you drop fats, because going the other way also has its "induction phase". When fasts are short, it does not matter. But my last fast was 8d, so my muscle cells were still "ignoring" glucose, as they supposed to when you're starving. I stopped all fats yesterday and already this morning my FBG is 95 =5.3 (it was 113 =6.3 couple of days ago). Live and learn

[Lucas]

What's your diet like Lexx? Gone to see a doctor?

Thanks for your interest! I have a good diet, never liked refined carbs, even as a kid, and always' been super fit. So the standard advice to people with type 2 diabetes does not apply to me. My BMI is 19-20 and I exercise daily.

I figured it out why I had such dismal BG readings after my last fast. Search "low-carb high FBG insulin resistance". I have to eschew all fats for at least 3 days when switching from ketosis of starvation to "glucosis" of hi-carb eating (fruits and berries + corn -- hey, it's summer!). It's because of certain inertia of homeostasis. When going into ketosis, you drop carbs and rise fats, and when going the other way, from ketosis to "glucosis" you drop fats, because going the other way also has its "induction phase". When fasts are short, it does not matter. But my last fast was 8d, so my muscle cells were still "ignoring" glucose, as they supposed to when you're starving. I stopped all fats yesterday and already this morning my FBG is 95 =5.3 (it was 113 =6.3 couple of days ago). Live and learn

Sorry if I you have answered this before but why are you fasting for extended periods? Autophagy? Regarding your BG "problem" indeed glucose intolerance after long periods of fast happens.

[gregandbeaker]

What's your diet like Lexx? Gone to see a doctor?

Thanks for your interest! I have a good diet, never liked refined carbs, even as a kid, and always' been super fit. So the standard advice to people with type 2 diabetes does not apply to me. My BMI is 19-20 and I exercise daily.

I figured it out why I had such dismal BG readings after my last fast. Search "low-carb high FBG insulin resistance". I have to eschew all fats for at least 3 days when switching from ketosis of starvation to "glucosis" of hi-carb eating (fruits and berries + corn -- hey, it's summer!). It's because of certain inertia of homeostasis. When going into ketosis, you drop carbs and rise fats, and when going the other way, from ketosis to "glucosis" you drop fats, because going the other way also has its "induction phase". When fasts are short, it does not matter. But my last fast was 8d, so my muscle cells were still "ignoring" glucose, as they supposed to when you're starving. I stopped all fats yesterday and already this morning my FBG is 95 =5.3 (it was 113 =6.3 couple of days ago). Live and learn

Hi Lexx. Look through some of the ketosis threads here on imminst. I'm not sure how long you spend in ketosis but I have found and some studies have shown that BG levels tend rise during extended periods in ketosis. My BG will drift up in the 90's after a couple of weeks doing VLC and I need to cycle for a couple of days to "re-normalize" them.

[xEva]

Sorry if I you have answered this before but why are you fasting for extended periods? Autophagy? Regarding your BG "problem" indeed glucose intolerance after long periods of fast happens.

I fast, because it is the best method I know of to keep young and fit. All the rejuvenating processes we try to emulate here take root in starvation. From autophagy to sirtuins activation to cellular repair to healing of actual diseases (Russian research).

I don't quite believe that a pill could fake it, mainly because of the deep ketosis of starvation, not compatible to ketosis of a diet, less so if the diet is not ketogenic => all the processes take place in completely different chemical milieu.

Besides, frequent fasts have an effect of gradually optimizing metabolism, so that very little goes a long way, putting a completely different spin on 'a calorie is not a calorie' argument. Metabolites of some processes serve as substrate for other processes, so that all nutrients are cycled, not just proteins, cutting down on wastes to be removed.

I had a thread about long term fasting. I am about to revive it with updates in my experiences and understanding of the processes involved. It's been a year and I have learned a lot.

Hi Lexx. Look through some of the ketosis threads here on imminst. I'm not sure how long you spend in ketosis but I have found and some studies have shown that BG levels tend rise during extended periods in ketosis. My BG will drift up in the 90's after a couple of weeks doing VLC and I need to cycle for a couple of days to "re-normalize" them.

Thank you, yes I have looked through some of those threads. How exactly do you cycle to renormalize BG? I got the glucometer only recently and it freaked me out. I thought I had diabetes. But knowing how I became hyperglycimic is not helping me. It's still a problem. How do you knock the levels down, other than cutting fat?

Exercise, as I already mentioned, bumps my BG in proportion to intensity -- another diabetic feature, shared by trained athletes. I'd like to have a better understanding of the processes involved.

Edited by Lexx, 17 July 2010 - 06:08 PM.

[Sillewater]

The higher BG is a natural response to ketosis. Your brain needs to get its glucose from somewhere. However if we could shutdown lipolysis for periods it would be interesting, probably boost autophagy, but it would also increase muscle catabolism (and break down other proteins):

Anti-lipolytic drugs post

I'm just wondering if it might cause brain damage (your brain needs its glucose, selfish-brain).

But from the research I've seen in rats losing bodyweight due to calorie restriction or intermittent fasting w/ caloric restriction, increase liver autophagy already.

Could you provide some references on the benefits of longer fasts. I remember Skot referencing someone who does research of ketotic diets or something like that.

[1kgcoffee]

This is just a random amateur theory, but maybe fasting and low carb has done a number on your pancreas?

[xEva]

It's not "just a random amateur theory". The basis for it lies in ketosis of starvation (it helps to remember that ketogenic diets only mimic starvation). The fact is that muscle cells will ignore glucose in presence of high concentrations of FFAs, because that's how conservation of glucose, and => protein, is accomplished during starvation.

Re: lowering the BG levels, I recalled that nicotinic acid inhibits lipolysis and temporary lowers levels of FFAs. So I started to take some niacin before eating and before exercising and it helped a lot (even though it also lowers insulin). Interesting that I am not getting niacin flash nowadays, even though I have not taken it in a long while.

[rwac]

How exactly do you cycle to renormalize BG?

Eat ~150 g of carbs each day for say 3 days. that should bring your fasting BG back down.

The problem is that if you're fat adapted, your body (or most of it) preferentially uses fat.
This leads to something which looks a lot like insulin resistance, as your liver still releases glucose.

Check your A1c to make sure you're doing ok long term.

[Sillewater]

I also wanted to mention one thing about supplementing with ALCAR. Ever since supplementing with ALCAR in the morning on my fasting days I have moved the time forward in the day. For e.g. before supplementing ALCAR I usually ended my fasts at around 8pm (because the day before I eat dinner at 6 and I give 2 hours digestion time). Nowadays I end the fast at around 6 (so the day before I started eating my last meal at around 4). This is because ever since using ALCAR I seem to have trouble falling asleep on that day. However the weird thing is, even though I had trouble falling asleep, I felt very refreshed the next day (despite the lack of sleep). I don't quite know what the effect is, but it seems when I supplement with ALCAR I need less sleep.

Nat Genet. 2003 Jul;34(3):320-5.


Deficiency in short-chain fatty acid beta-oxidation affects theta oscillations during sleep.
Tafti M, Petit B, Chollet D, Neidhart E, de Bilbao F, Kiss JZ, Wood PA, Franken P.

Biochemistry and Genetics Unit, Department of Psychiatry, University of Geneva and Geneva University Hospitals, Chemin du Petit-Bel-Air 2, 1225 Chêne-Bourg, Switzerland. mehdi.tafti@medecine.unige.ch


Abstract
In rodents, the electroencephalogram (EEG) during paradoxical sleep and exploratory behavior is characterized by theta oscillations. Here we show that a deficiency in short-chain acyl-coenzyme A dehydrogenase (encoded by Acads) in mice causes a marked slowing in theta frequency during paradoxical sleep only. We found Acads expression in brain regions involved in theta generation, notably the hippocampus. Microarray analysis of gene expression in mice with mutations in Acads indicates overexpression of Glo1 (encoding glyoxylase 1), a gene involved in the detoxification of metabolic by-products. Administration of acetyl-L-carnitine (ALCAR) to mutant mice significantly recovers slow theta and Glo1 overexpression. Thus, an underappreciated metabolic pathway involving fatty acid beta-oxidation also regulates theta oscillations during sleep.

[distinct]

I used to take ALCAR a lot, but stopped for some reason. What's the low down on the long term safety of it?

I also wanted to mention one thing about supplementing with ALCAR. Ever since supplementing with ALCAR in the morning on my fasting days I have moved the time forward in the day. For e.g. before supplementing ALCAR I usually ended my fasts at around 8pm (because the day before I eat dinner at 6 and I give 2 hours digestion time). Nowadays I end the fast at around 6 (so the day before I started eating my last meal at around 4). This is because ever since using ALCAR I seem to have trouble falling asleep on that day. However the weird thing is, even though I had trouble falling asleep, I felt very refreshed the next day (despite the lack of sleep). I don't quite know what the effect is, but it seems when I supplement with ALCAR I need less sleep.

Nat Genet. 2003 Jul;34(3):320-5.


Deficiency in short-chain fatty acid beta-oxidation affects theta oscillations during sleep.
Tafti M, Petit B, Chollet D, Neidhart E, de Bilbao F, Kiss JZ, Wood PA, Franken P.

Biochemistry and Genetics Unit, Department of Psychiatry, University of Geneva and Geneva University Hospitals, Chemin du Petit-Bel-Air 2, 1225 Chêne-Bourg, Switzerland. mehdi.tafti@medecine.unige.ch


Abstract
In rodents, the electroencephalogram (EEG) during paradoxical sleep and exploratory behavior is characterized by theta oscillations. Here we show that a deficiency in short-chain acyl-coenzyme A dehydrogenase (encoded by Acads) in mice causes a marked slowing in theta frequency during paradoxical sleep only. We found Acads expression in brain regions involved in theta generation, notably the hippocampus. Microarray analysis of gene expression in mice with mutations in Acads indicates overexpression of Glo1 (encoding glyoxylase 1), a gene involved in the detoxification of metabolic by-products. Administration of acetyl-L-carnitine (ALCAR) to mutant mice significantly recovers slow theta and Glo1 overexpression. Thus, an underappreciated metabolic pathway involving fatty acid beta-oxidation also regulates theta oscillations during sleep.

[Lucas]

I'm just wondering if it might cause brain damage (your brain needs its glucose, selfish-brain).

Actually ketones (specially bOHB) have shown to be neuroprotective.