50 replies to this topic

[Ghostrider]

Instead, he drinks milk every day and takes walks on his own in the area around his house, where he lives with his son.

If you believe a few groups/websites out there in the wilds of the internet, milk is the most wicked deadly poison known to man. Surprising this guy lasted so long. He must be superman.


the thing super centenarians seem to have in common is genetics and luck.

Uhm, that's new to me...milk bad, thought it did a body good?

[tintinet]

Some folks beg to differ, apparently.

[dannov]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4199822a10.html

[resveratrol]

Fascinating. Thanks for linking to those articles.

I had terrible acne problems when I was young; it only began to ameliorate when I stopped drinking milk in high school.

A few years ago I picked up milk again and every single time I drank it, the acne returned, like clockwork, and I stopped drinking it immediately when I became aware of the iodine connection.

Now it's soy milk and calcium supplements only.

Edited by resveratrol, 19 September 2007 - 04:22 PM.

[dannov]

Good man res, and to be honest, I drink practically no milk (sometimes in cereal) and don't supplement any calcium really and have real strong bones and what-not. I think it's pretty common in healthy foods in general.

Milk does a body good alright...the corporate dairy body.

[Live Forever]

http://www.milksucks.com/

[resveratrol]

http://www.milksucks.com/

Yikes! That website scares me for all the wrong reasons ... it's clearly a PETA front site, and I really don't have any respect for PETA whatsoever.

I've often had my mind changed by well-documented science, but far less often by this kind of cheap anti-corporate fearmongering and hatemongering.

Edited by resveratrol, 19 September 2007 - 08:04 PM.

[stayin_alive]

Yogurt and Kefir are not mentioned. Raw milk is not directly implicated as far as I could tell (I'm no expert in such matters, not even above laymen.) Are they considered dairy products as the same as cheese?

The concern seems to be processed milk and not raw milk or even Goats milk. One the links provided uses improper logic, imo and is quite misleading (notmilk.)

Notmilk stated the following (paraphrased) : list a variety of animals and then ask yourself would you use their milk to drink? That a play on culture. Back in the day before "modern" medicine sterilizing children in cow's urine was commonplace and in 3rd world countries still is. I'm not sure there is anything wrong with that. Guru's in India drink young boys urine (they pay for it.) Until recently, they were considered some of the worlds oldest and healthiest people.

Kefir, as I understand it, is really quite good for pro and pre biotic foods. If you start and continue your kefir on raw milk, is there still a rational?

[health_nutty]

The con's of milk products:
1) High in saturated fat (unless defatted in non-fat versions)
2) Pasteurization creates AGE's. Unpasteurized milk may have harmful bacteria.
3) Lactose: Problem for many who are lactose intolerant or borderline lactose intolerant. For others its still add quite a bit of simple sugar.
4) Possible issue with hormones in milk products

Pros:
1) Good source of high quality protein
2) High in calcium

[dannov]

A serving of milk really doesn't have much protein, and there are certainly no shortages on sources of protein out there--likewise with calcium.

http://www.google.co.....s of calcium"

I suggest reading this milk letter (or at least part of it, it's incredibly long), from a doctor, backed by a good deal of science within it.

http://www.notmilk.com/kradjian.html

[health_nutty]

A serving of milk really doesn't have much protein, and there are certainly no shortages on sources of protein out there--likewise with calcium.

Agreed.

[EmbraceUnity]

Milk has lactoferrin and some other healthful nutrients, though quality whey supplements are a much more potent and reliable source.

I occasionally drink organic, grass-fed, vat-pasteurized milk from this company: http://www.farmersal...alcreamery.com/

I am not worried about the saturated fat, since I don't get very much in my diet. I drink the whole milk.

[stayin_alive]

thanks healthnutty and others.

It quotes dr. Spook. lol.

It's not what I'd call a definitive article and due to its emotional appeal I find it less than credible. but thank you.

[dannov]

Dr. Spook--whu?

Anyway, I think the quote at the end of the last article that I linked sums it up real well:

To my thinking, there is only one valid reason to drink milk
or use milk products. That is just because we simply want
to. Because we like it and because it has become a part of
our culture. Because we have become accustomed to its taste
and texture. Because we like the way it slides down our
throat. Because our parents did the very best they could for
us and provided milk in our earliest training and
conditioning. They taught us to like it. And then probably
the very best reason is ice cream! I've heard it described
"to die for".

To die for indeed.

Go figure that I went out and got a portion of Pumpkin ice cream from Abbott's right after work yesterday! Kiddy portion though.

[mirian]

Drink lots of milk if you want cancer since it raises your IGF-1 hormone levels.

Things made from milk are ok like yogurt, ice cream, cheese, but stay away from milk. Check ingredients make sure doesn't have non-fat/skim milk. Stick with low-fat or whole milk only as the ingredient in ice cream, cheese, or yogurt. Make sure cheese is cooked though not raw cheese:

http://www.mercola.c...ilk_hormone.htm

http://www.mercola.c.../13/milk_tb.htm

http://www.knowledge...es/chart_TB.gif


Sunday, August 19, 2007

Connection between paratuberculosis and Crohn's

Researchers continue to delve into the connection between paratuberculosis infection and the onset of Crohn's disease (inflammatory bowel disease). Dairy
products, particularly milk and cheese are the most likely source of transmission to humans since this mycobacterium often resists Pasteurization. Several
studies show that paratuberculosis is present in retail milk in countries such as United Kingdom, USA, Czech Republic, and recently in Argentina. [Review
Argentina Microbiology 39: 57-68, 2007] In Switzerland, 4.2% of raw milk cheese samples were found to harbor paratuberculosis. Swiss researchers say: "As long as the link between paratuberculosis and Crohn's disease in humans remains unclear, measures designed to minimize public exposure should also
include a focus on milk products."

[nameless]

What is kefir considered, a yogurt or the same as milk? I assume it is considered healthy, but does it contain any of the bad stuff in regular milk?

I just started drinking Lifeway kefir (lowfat version)... very tasty. But does kefir raise IGF-1 levels?

[rabagley]

I've spent some time now following up on many of the assertions made by doctors on the notmilk.com site, and I have only found a few statements that I find credible. Just about all of the evils of milk on that site are based on bad science and pseudo-science, exactly what I come to this site to get away from. Specifically, the Crohn's disease link is speculative and is not being borne out by additional research ( http://www.medscape....warticle/540142 ) The most likely explanation at this point is that the paratuberculosis bacterium is opportunistically taking advantage of compromised immune function in Crohn's sufferers. Certainly, if you have Crohn's disease or are otherwise immunocompromised (HIV, Lupus, chemo, etc.), stop drinking milk. For the rest of us with high functioning immune systems, the risk seems nonexistant.

The only credible statements I found are a potential link between hormone-laced or growth-factor-laced milk and cancer (important word, potential). Milk from untreated cows does not raise IGF-1 levels, but IGF-1 is found in milk from cows treated with rBST and may contribute to increased IGF-1 levels in humans. Thank goodness for something factual. Unfortunately for the site, this is not an indictment of milk, but treatment of cattle with growth hormones resulting in increased human risk.

Lucky for me, I've been buying milk from a local dairy that does not treat their cattle with rBST and it's fairly straightforward to walk out to the yard and observe that indeed, these are normal cows with normal sized udders. Also, for those in the USA not close enough to a dairy to check for themselves, there's a label for those who wish to avoid treated dairy cattle. It's easier to find untreated dairy products in most parts Europe than to find treated dairy products and there are local labels to clearly specify which is which, so this issue can be easily managed for citizens of most developed nations.

Based on what I've learned today, I'll keep drinking milk and eating other dairy products. I feel quite confident that this is consistent with my goals of living beyond the current theoretical human lifespan and that anyone who stops drinking milk based on these sites is allowing emotional argument, bad science, and fearmongering to overcome rational discourse. Not to say that some new piece of information won't change my mind tomorrow, but it will have to be based on science, not emotion.

[rabagley]

I will add that self-serving studies by the dairy and manufactured food industry regarding the nutritional value of formula also lack credibility. Human breast milk contains such a rich array of benefits, including those nasty white blood cells that so terrified the doctors who contribute to notmilk.com.

Unfortunately for those doctors, white blood cells are not "pus" but are reinforcements for the child's developing immune function. As their own immune function develops, fewer and fewer of mom's lymphocytes will make it to the blood intact, with more and more simply contributing to the protein load of the milk.

Actually, I'm more and more angry at the normilk.com site and their misinformation, which seems likely to cause mothers to become suspicious of milk in general, including their own breast milk. That site does a great disservice to people hoping to learn and be healthier as a result.

[resveratrol]

Thanks for the great posts, rabagley. I agree that most of the notmilk.com site is based on bad science and fearmongering (though I'm still going to avoid milk due to the iodine issues I've run into).

[DukeNukem]

>>> 2) High in calcium

But, it's not very boiavailable, from what I've read. Also, you need to balance it out with K2, D3, and magnesium.

Frankly, I avoid dairy milk, and only occasionally eat goat milk products, such as yogurt and goat cheese. Although, I do eat a lot of whey, but only from organic sources.

I see milk as a net-negative, despite a few positives. Especially, typical grocery store milk. I used to order organic raw milk for CA, but that was expensive and frankly I'm better off without milk period. Don't miss it at all. And I don't drink soy milk either--that stuff may be even less healthy.

[Shepard]

>>> 2) High in calcium

But, it's not very boiavailable, from what I've read.  Also, you need to balance it out with K2, D3, and magnesium.

It might not be optimal from a utilization standpoint, but there is substantial evidence that milk is good for your bones.

J Am Coll Nutr. 2000 Apr;19(2 Suppl):83S-99S
    Calcium, dairy products and osteoporosis.
    Heaney RP.

    Creighton University, Omaha, Nebraska 68178, USA. rheaney@creighton.edu

    Osteoporosis is a multifactorial disorder in which nutrition plays a role but does not account for the totality of the problem. 139 papers published since 1975 and describing studies of the relationship of calcium intake and bone health are briefly analyzed. Of 52 investigator-controlled calcium intervention studies, all but two showed better bone balance at high intakes, or greater bone gain during growth, or reduced bone loss in the elderly, or reduced fracture risk. This evidence firmly establishes that high calcium intakes promote bone health. Additionally, three-fourths of 86 observational studies were also positive, indicating that the causal link established in investigator-controlled trials can be found in free-living subjects as well. The principal reason for failure to find an association in observational studies is the weakness of the methods available for estimating long-term calcium intake. While most of the investigator-controlled studies used calcium supplements, six used dairy sources of calcium; all were positive. Most of the observational studies were based on dairy calcium also, since at the time the studies were done, higher calcium intakes meant higher dairy intakes. All studies evaluating the issue reported substantial augmentation of the osteoprotective effect of estrogen by high calcium intakes. Discussion is provided in regard to the multifactorial complexity of osteoporotic response to interventions and to the perturbing effect in controlled trials of the bone remodeling transient, as well as about how inferences can validly be drawn from the various study types represented in this compilation.

    PMID: 10759135 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

FWIW, Lyle McDonald has commented many times that when he looked into maximizing calcium absorption, he pretty much came up with milk. I haven't seen him elaborate on that, and don't know enough about the particular topic to argue one way or another.

[rabagley]

Green leafy vegetables (spinach, arugula, etc.) plus sufficient vitamin D (whether from skin+sun or D3 supplementation) can be an excellent source of calcium. Vegetarians should not assume that vegetable sourced vitamin D2 is equivalent to skin+sunlight and those living further north would often be better off spending time under a sunlamp than supplementing with D2. There are many ways to make dietary calcium more or less bioavailable. D3 was an issue, but is now supplemented.

Chocolate contains oxalates which are mild calcium inhibitors but aren't strong enough to fully inhibit calcium uptake, so even chocolate milk will help, if slightly less than normal milk. A significant issue with chocolate milk is sugar levels, which are often equivalent to many desserts.

[dannov]

As a general rule of thumb in life, if you are truly interested in living beyond the theoretical lifespan--then stick with natural and not man-made food. Dairy is not a natural source of food--cavemen weren't found sucking on Cow nips. It's intended for calves. I'm not saying I don't eat dairy, but I'm gradually phasing it out of my diet. I'll always have ice cream here and there and milkshakes, but only once in an while. Milk for a healthy person is of zero benefit, and only has negatives. I have no reason to pay more for organic milk for the simple reason that it is of no benefit to me.

Water please.

[tintinet]

A2, Brutus?

A2 Milk

[Mind]

Dairy is not a natural source of food--cavemen weren't found sucking on Cow nips. It's intended for calves.

I don't agree with this statement. It is not a sound logical argument to reject the drinking of milk. In nature every animal utilizes/exploits whatever source of nutrients it can find. Most animals in "nature" do not drink cow's milk for the simple fact that they cannot. They don't have the mental capacity or social organization to domesticate, herd, and harvest milk from other animals (come to think of it, there are some insects that do harvest fluids from other animals/insects) (another rambling aside: predators drink milk when they kill other lactating mammals, small amounts obviously, but they sure don't aviod it because it is "unnatural' for an adult animal to consume milk, lol). The closest analogue I can think of is eggs. Many animals in nature steal/harvest the egss of other animals because it is a source of food within their "reach". Humans have the capability to take this one step further and domesticate prolific egg producing species (chickens) and thus have developed a stable source of food.

Now if you want to reject milk based on nutritional content or modern practices that result in extra hormones and antibiotics, go ahead. That makes more sense. I consume dairy products, but not as much as in the past. I love cheese. It is hard to go without.

A2, Brutus?

Love the creativity!! [thumb]

[mirian]

This chart illistrates how 2.5% of all milk is contaminated with paratuberculosis which was thought to be harmless in humans just not in cows but now studies are drawing links to why very young kids are getting type 1 diabetes because they were given milk at a very young age that was probably contaminated with paratuberculosis:

http://www.knowledge...es/chart_TB.gif

Adults who consume milk seem to be at higher risk at getting Crohn's disease. Studies now are linking the same paratuberculosis.

[rabagley]

Adults who consume milk seem to be at higher risk at getting Crohn's disease.

This doesn't seem to be the case (see link on page 1 of this thread). The correlation between Crohn's disease and paratuberculosis appears to be caused by the bacterium opportunistically taking advantage of compromised immune function (a nearly universal trait of early-stage Crohn's disease). Crohn's disease is increasingly understood to be a genetic condition. Healthy humans are basically not susceptible to bovine paratuberculosis.

I have yet to understand the motivation behind the fear-mongering about milk. There are a lot of things in this world to get indignant about. Getting upset about rBST is a great start. It's harmful to the cows and may be harmful to humans who drink milk from rBST treated cattle. But milk? Gathered in a sustainable way from cattle treated ethically and humanely? Come on.

If you need something to get in a twist over, look to Washington DC. There's plenty to get in a twist over.

[bgwowk]

As a general rule of thumb in life, if you are truly interested in living beyond the theoretical lifespan--then stick with natural and not man-made food.  Dairy is not a natural source of food--cavemen weren't found sucking on Cow nips.

They also had an average lifespan of 20 years. To say that the way to live much longer than your ancestors is to eat just like them is illogical. You better do something different!

By the way, the only reason certain people remain lactose tolerant throughout life is precisely because their ancestors maintained dairy herds for thousands of years. It is an evolutionary adaptation. People that can drink milk through adulthood are genetically adapted to drink animal milk.

[resveratrol]

They also had an average lifespan of 20 years.

This is an oft-repeated fallacy. The shortened life expectancy of the populations as a whole is mostly due to infant mortality. Although obviously their maximum lifespan was shorter than our own due to frequent warfare and lack of access to modern medicine, sanitation, and vitamins, the actual figure for those who survived childbirth was undoubtedly much greater than 20 years.

The following quote from the Wikipedia article on life expectancy is also quite relevant to the discussion:

The sharp drop in life expectancy with the advent of the Neolithic mirrors the evidence that the advent of agriculture actually marked a sharp drop in life expectancy that humans are only recovering from in affluent nations today.

Hey, maybe that Art De Vany guy is on to something after all.

Edited by resveratrol, 25 October 2007 - 12:42 AM.

[bgwowk]

They also had an average lifespan of 20 years.

This is an oft-repeated fallacy.

Alright then, exact numbers aside, they still had an average lifespan much shorter than yours. So do something different.[sfty]

The point is that there is no reason to believe that prehistoric diets are optimized for longevity at advanced ages because almost no prehistoric people lived to advanced ages because of extrinsic causes of death. The selection pressures for diet had nothing to do with healthy aging. They had everything to do with best use of locally available food resources to enhance production and survival of offspring when life was short and brutish.

Also, many ethnic groups in the world today are genetically dissimilar to hunter-gatherers because of thousands of years of agriculture in their recent ancestry. People who retain the lactase enzyme through adulthood, and that can remain thin with ad lib access to high carbohydrate food just aren't cavemen anymore.

Edited by bgwowk, 25 October 2007 - 05:38 AM.