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Glucosepane & K2P Crosslink Breakers - Breakthrus?


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#1 rooter

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 09:54 PM


I've been studying alagebrium and it is very interesting. I may well order some, and use it with aminoguanidine to keep those links broken. Or would benfotiamine be a better choice? Is there stone-cold proof that benfotiamine is better? I know aminoguanidine made me feel better and helped biologically, as I'd taken it over 5 years. (middle age)

How to measure a day's dose of alagebrium powder? 000 cap?

Also wondering if there have been any breakthroughs or experiments with glucosepane and K2P crosslink breakers?

#2 rabagley

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 10:52 PM

This group states that it wasn't showing a lot of promise in the phase II trials before Alteon (now Synvista) ran out of money.

http://www.longevity...wsletter_id=182

Maybe you already know more than they do on the subject, I didn't really try to read that much further to see how they reached their conclusion.

Also, where would you get the stuff? Do you have access to a lab yourself or know of someone selling it as a research chemical?

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#3 rabagley

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 11:00 PM

Never mind on sourcing. Found some as a research chemical. Probably the kind of link that shouldn't be posted here...

#4 rooter

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 12:07 AM

I've looked at the three human trials studies of Alagebrium, and there was very encouraging improvement in such things as blood pressure and skin elasticity. I think that even if there's a chance it's effective, it's worth it. Should probably keep the dose below 100mg/day, as I've read that for megadoses over 1g/day there could develop liver tumors over time.

Also wondering about any other breakthroughs?

#5 niner

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 02:33 AM

I've been studying alagebrium and it is very interesting. I may well order some, and use it with aminoguanidine to keep those links broken. Or would benfotiamine be a better choice? Is there stone-cold proof that benfotiamine is better? I know aminoguanidine made me feel better and helped biologically, as I'd taken it over 5 years. (middle age)

How to measure a day's dose of alagebrium powder? 000 cap?

Also wondering if there have been any breakthroughs or experiments with glucosepane and K2P crosslink breakers?

It would be good to have a milligram scale for something like this. Powders can be cut with another powder of similar physical properties but different color (to facilitate even mixing). This way you can deal with a larger quantity and get by with a less precise scale. I'm not aware of any breakthroughs in dealing with other crosslinks; at least nothing that's ready for people to take.

Krillin just posted this about aminoguanidine in another thread.

http://www.medscape....ticle/460902_21

These are the summary results of the aminoguanidine (pimagedine) studies of diabetic nephropathy. A substantial number of patients with type 1 and type 2 diabetes with clinical nephropathy, proteinuria, and creatinine up to 2 mg/dL were studied at 2 different dose levels and compared with placebo.

The studies were troubled by issues with regards to safety, with flu-like syndrome being present in both type 1 and type 2 diabetes patients, and moderate anemia being an issue for another subset of patients. But most disturbing was a problem with elevated antinuclear antibodies and antineutrophil cytoplasm autoantibodies (ANCA) vasculitis, resulting in glomerulonephritis and stroke in a handful of patients.

Given this report, I'd go with benfotiamine. Actually, I use AOR AGE Amadori, which contains not only benfotiamine but also pyridoxamine and some other B vitamins that you should get when you take a large dose of benfotiamine. Pyridoxamine is supposed to be a great glycation inhibitor. In addition to the AGE Amadori, I also use 500mg of carnosine twice a day. I've been thinking of trying alagebrium. One concern that I have is apparently if a crosslink is broken by the alagebrium, the ends remain reactive, thus the crosslink can reform easily. I think the glycation inhibitors will suppress this though, and the non-crosslinked protein should be more amenable to catabolic recycling, infrequent as that may be in the extracellular matrix.

Should probably keep the dose below 100mg/day, as I've read that for megadoses over 1g/day there could develop liver tumors over time.

Yes. Paul Wakfer at morelife.org recommends a fairly low dose. He's had a lot of experience with it.

#6 DukeNukem

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 03:14 AM

For glycation, I use benfotiamine, pyridoxamine, L-carnosine, and aminoguanidine as my primary defenses. I also take alagebrium to break certain types of established cross-links, though alagebrium doesn't come close to breaking all types, unfortunately. I think I've recently read, too, that components of garlic act to prevent glycation, and so does lipoic acid.

#7 rooter

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 03:58 PM

OK, thanks guys.

I'd rather not add an inert powder to the mix. Seems best to get a gelcap that's the right size for the dosage. Those who are capsulizing alagebrium, what size cap is best for 100mg? What's the half-life for alagebrium, IOW is it best twice a day, or once? If twice, what size cap for 50mg?

I am confused about AGE Amadori, as on the AOR website it says, "These nutrients are Amadorins, powerful 'late-phase' inhibitors of the formation of Advanced Glycation Endproducts (AGEs)." Isn't it better to use an early-stage like aminoguanidine, to better prevent cross-linking? How does pyridoxamine compliment benfotiamine? The dosages of pyridoxamine and benfotiamine are awfully low per tablet. Seems like you'd need to take 5-8 per day. Seems better to get tabs with high dosage of one, or both if they are complimentary.

Also, I notice there's been research into an even better compound, BST-4997, although I can't find any evidence that it is available. I just don't trust carnosine, for reasons I can't explain; maybe haven't studied it enough, but it strikes me as hype.

It seems that DukeNukem is covering all his bases. Are you taking these as bulk powders, and if so what's your source? If you can't say out loud, please PM me. As you have done much research, are there additional compounds you can recommend for well-being, actually to combat anxiety?

I infer that there's no compound yet to break glucosepane crosslinks, but I read somewhere that there is one in research testing. Anyone know about that? Any chance of synthesis?

#8 Mind

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 04:22 PM

If you can't say out loud, please PM me.


This is generally a good practice in the forums when the question is commercial entities (and links). Imminst navigators have had a tough time with flame wars and commercial spam over the years and it usually starts with "I get my xxxx supp from xxxx company and they are GREAT!" I realize supplier discussions are hard to avoid, just try your best not to go wild.

#9 rooter

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 06:18 PM

I've done some more research. It seems clear that for purposes of researching glycation as an aging process, studies of diabetes (an extreme form of glycation) are in order.

Hyperglycemia causes damage in the blood vessels and nerves of the body, which in turn develop into the major complications of diabetes. Damage happens when excess glucose in the blood settles into the cells and forms advanced glycation endproducts. (A.G.E.) Research has shown that glucose is partly responsible for the cross-linking of proteins, which in turn leads to aging damage.

Aminoguanidine (Pimagidine)
Rigorous scientific studies of diabetes treatment have often included aminoguanidine as part of the testing regimen, and it has been found to significantly impede A.G.E.-induced tissue injury.

The presence of high glucose levels and proteins will continue through a number of steps, to eventually cause active cross-links. But the formation of this process appears to be reversible. Glucose/ protein substances stay in the body for months, even years, cross-linking with the proteins around them. This continuous cross-linking may be prevented by using glycosylation inhibitors because their primary use is to stabilize the metabolism of glucose.

Aminoguanidine is able to join up with substances that cause links and to stop cross-links from developing. Therefore it may be able to help alleviate or prevent senile cataracts, thickening of the arteries, kidney failure, thinning bones, osteo-arthritis, skin wrinkles and many other signs of aging.

In one study, aminoguanidine was administered to diabetic rats. Those rats which received aminoguanidine had a significantly superior survival rate than those who remained untreated.

In another study conducted by Rumble, et al, streptozotocin-induced diabetic rats were randomized to receive aminoguanidine or no treatment. The results of the study indicated that the rats treated with aminoguanidine had more favorable outcomes than those that were untreated. This study showed that aminoguanidine helps control transforming growth factor beta and the detrimental tissue changes that are associated with diabetes.

Another study in rats looked at nerve blood flow deficits and the ability of aminoguanidine to prevent nerve conduction velocity deficits. Aminoguanidine corrected approximately 86% of the nerve conduction velocity deficits in about 4 weeks. Fifty percent of the maximal effect was experienced in 6 days.

Other studies have demonstrated that aminoguanidine prevents oxidative modification of low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL). This agent binds reactive aldehydes that are formed during lipid peroxidation and prevents their conversion to apolipoprotein B. In addition, aminoguanidine can inhibit the formation of atherosclerotic plaques.

Early studies in humans indicate that aminoguanidine can significantly reduced albuminuria, delay the onset of end stage renal disease, and improve lipid profiles in diabetic patients. Studies are ongoing to further define these benefits and to evaluate the activity of aminoguanidine in other conditions. To date, the compound demonstrates a low incidence of side-effects, with headache and nausea being primarily reported.

References:
Aminoguanidine-Drug evaluation monograph. Micromedex, Inc. Feb. 1998.

Cameron NE, Cotter MA. Rapid reversal by aminoguanidine of the neurovascular effects of diabetes in rats: modulation by nitric oxide synthase inhibition. Metabolism 1996;45(9):1147-52.

Friedman EA, Distant DA, Fleishhacker JF, et al. Aminoguanidine prolongs survival in azotemic-induced diabetic rats. Am J Kidney Dis 1997;30(2):253-9.

Makita Z, Yanagisawa K, Kuwajima S, et al. Advanced glycation endproducts and diabetic nephropathy. J Diabetes Complications. 1995;9(4):265-8.

Skamarauskas JT, McKay AG, Hunt JV. Aminoguanidine and its pro-oxidant effects on an experimental model of protein glycation. Free Radic Biol Med 1996;21(6):801-12.

Zimmerman GA, Meistrell M 3rd, Bloom O, et al. Neurotoxicity of advanced glycation of endproducts during focal stroke and neuroprotective effects of aminoguanidine. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1995;92(9):3744-8.


Pimagidine treatment significantly prevents NO activation and limits tissue accumulation of AGEs.
...
The mechanism by which pimagidine prevents renal, eye, nerve, and other microvascular complications in animal models of diabetes is under investigation. (1998)

Hemodialysis Horizons (2006):
Representative examples from a rapidly expanding literature detailing potential application of aminoguanidine (2270 Library of Medicine citations as of September 2005) include:
1) Preventing development of cataracts in rats 90 days after being made “moderately diabetic” by treatment with aminoguanidine.
2) Blocking AGE accumulation in rats 32 weeks after induction of diabetes.
3) Reducing severity of experimental diabetic retinopathy in spontaneous hypertensive rats.
4) Ameliorating slowing of sciatic nerve conduction velocity in diabetic rats.
5) Preventing development of the “stiff myocardium” that is a main component of diabetic cardiomyopathy.

Separate multicenter trials of aminoguanidine (Pimagidine) were conducted in adults with Type 1 and Type 2 diabetes and documented, fixed proteinuria of at least 500 mg/day, and a plasma creatinine concentration of <1.0 mg/dL (88 μmol/L) in women or <1.3 mg/dL (115 μmol/L) in men randomly assigned to treatment with aminoguanidine or placebo for four years. In the Type 1 trial, reported in abstract, 56 sites enrolled 69 subjects. Compared with the placebo group, the aminoguanidine group evinced a significant (<0.05) reduction in doubling of serum creatinine concentration in those who had proteinuria >2g/24h. There was a nonsignificant “trend” toward slowing the creatinine rise in the entire group. Simultaneously, protection against diabetic retinopathy and a decrease in hyperlipidemia was noted in the treated group. Side effects in the aminoguanidine group included a transient flu-like syndrome, worsening anemia, and development of antinuclear autoantibodies (ANA).

A similar study in 599 subjects with Type 2 diabetes enrolled in 84 centers in Canada and the U.S. was interrupted because of liver function abnormalities in the aminoguanidine treated group. Other adverse effects of aminoguanidine treatment included myocardial infarction, congestive heart failure, atrial fibrillation, anemia, ANA titre conversion, and upper GI symptoms.

{What went wrong with this study, when hundreds of studies had been conducted prior? Aminoguanidine has been around for over 65 years as a food additive}

Other drugs with promising activity against AGEs under evaluation include desferrioxamine, D-penicillamine, pentoxifylline, pioglitazone, metformin, and nifedipine. Because AGE-induced nephrotoxicity in diabetes is linked to activation of protein kinase C (PKC) isoforms (PKC may regulate the production and action of cytokines involved in many metabolic processes) that promote oxidative stress, ruboxistaurin mesylate, an inhibitor of PKC beta isoforms, has attracted interest. In the diabetic rat, ruboxistaurin normalized glomerular hyperfiltration, decreased urinary albumin excretion, and reduced glomerular transforming growth factor-beta1 and extra-cellular matrix protein production. Additionally, ruboxistaurin treatment significantly attenuated fibrosis and impaired cardiac function following experimental myocardial infarction in rats. Clinical trials of ruboxistaurin are now in progress.


Benfotiamine
There are four separate pathways that occur in the body that can lead to small blood vessel damage due to hyperglycemia in diabetes.
- Advanced glycation endproducts (AGE)
- Protein kinase C (PKC)
- Hexosamine pathway activation
- Polyol pathway activation

Benfotiamine appears to block three of these pathways in clinical studies. An article, which appeared in the journal Nature Medicine in February 2003, titled "Benfotiamine Blocks Three Major Pathways of Hyperglycemic Damage and Prevents Experimental Diabetic Retinopathy" showed that benfotiamine did prevent diabetic retinopathy in laboratory animals.

Studies have shown that benfotiamine seems to help prevent complications of neuropathy, retinopathy and nephropathy by inhibiting the build-up of glucose in the vessels. This means that the occurrence of diabetic complications might be slowed or prevented. A clinical study that appeared in the ADA journal Diabetes in 2003 showed that high-dose thiamine and benfotiamine seemed to prevent microalbuminuria and proteinuria (protein in urine) in diabetic rats. Studies done on people have shown that benfotiamine appears to also relieve neuropathic pain.

Research shows though, that either thiamine or benfotiamine are just as effective in these ways, as the majority of those with diabetes have at least a low-level B6 deficiency. And oddly, I find no evidence that benfotiamine acts against cross-linking of proteins, only in the control of serum glucose.

Edited by rooter, 23 October 2007 - 06:31 PM.


#10 DukeNukem

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 06:38 PM

Rooter, I take Jarrow's brand pyridoxamine, which I think is 50mg per pill, and I take three pills daily (morn, noon, night). I take just one aminoguanidine each morning, unless I've had a bad day with lots of carbs, then I'll take one at night, too -- a rare event, but occasionally. I take three 100mg of benfotiamine (m,n,n). I take one LEF L-carnosine (500mg) at morning, and then at night.

I don't know the half-lives of these supps, but generally if I take more than one pill of any particular supp daily, I tried to space them out, just in case the half-life is low. The exception to this are my omega-3's, which I take all at once.

>>> It seems clear that for purposes of researching glycation as an aging process, studies of diabetes (an extreme form of glycation) are in order. <<<

This is absolutely the case -- the two are very closely tied together, based on my understanding. So, to complement my glycation fighting regimen, I also take supplements that supposedly help control blood sugar levels, such as Metformin, coffee berry (LEF), cinnamon extract (LEF), chromium polynicotinate (LEF), and vanadyl sulfate (LEF).

#11 theta

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 09:12 PM

cinnamon extract (LEF), chromium polynicotinate (LEF)


Been given my 20 year old dog ground cinnamon with his food
1 gram/meal(I guess he is 20 pounds). I started drinking cinnamon tea myself. It reduced his frequent urination and excessive water drinking which indicates it has real utility in controlling sugar. I
crave sugar so I theorised it might reduce my cravings if my blood sugar is more stable.

#12 niner

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 03:01 AM

Have any of you evaluated your anti-glycation regimens by checking HbA1c? This is a glycated form of hemoglobin, and is used as a measure of long term (3 mos) glucose control. I would think that if our anti-glycation schemes are working well, this would be very low. I'm going to try to get mine done in a couple months.

#13 rooter

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 07:49 PM

niner, actually it seems to me that these levels should be higher.

The problem is when glucose crosslinks with proteins, so if you successfully block that process there will be more glucose in the blood.

At this point I am inclined to both aminoguanidine and benfotiamine. Carnosine seems to have some nice benefits, but I question its half-life and bio-availability. Pyridoxamine is primarily for nerve heath, and my concern is cross-linking. Morelife never got back to me on alagebrium; did you guys say something to him to make him mad? I've found another source for alagebrium, but must buy a kilo at a time ($4,800), and that's not gonna happen.

#14 niner

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 11:45 PM

niner, actually it seems to me that these levels should be higher.

The problem is when glucose crosslinks with proteins, so if you successfully block that process there will be more glucose in the blood.

I'm pretty sure that reduction of glycation will give you a lower HbA1c. The number is the percentage of hemoglobin that's glycated, so if you have reduced glycation, by definition it would have to be lower. It's only a small fraction of the glucose that is involved in glycation, so if it were blocked, then yes, I suppose the free glucose would be infinitesimally higher, but it would be rapidly consumed just like the other glucose.

Maybe you should give Paul another try. He might have been in transit between his summer and winter place or something like that. He will want a lot of personal information; some people are put off by that.

#15 rabagley

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 12:42 AM

Paul and I are starting a conversation about alagebrium. I was quite open in responding to his questionnaire, and he's been quite enthusiastic in return.

Just be aware that he has some strongly held opinions on how things should be done, and if you want his help or cooperation, you'll have to work within his constraints.

#16 rooter

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 12:19 PM

Ehm, I don't think so. I concluded from our correspondence a while back that his source is Red China. It is not pharmaceutical-grade, and has not been independently tested.

So no one has any thoughts on the research I've presented?

#17 niner

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 03:58 AM

Ehm, I don't think so. I concluded from our correspondence a while back that his source is Red China. It is not pharmaceutical-grade, and has not been independently tested.

Wow. I don't have any problem sourcing chemicals from China (do people still call it "Red"?), but he didn't have it tested? That's nuts. The resveratrol that I bought from him was tested in America.

#18 speda1

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 06:52 PM

The problem is when glucose crosslinks with proteins, so if you successfully block that process there will be more glucose in the blood.


Is'nt hemoglobin a protein?

#19 rabagley

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 05:10 AM

Is'nt hemoglobin a protein?

Sort of. It's actually one protein (globin) and four prosthetic groups (heme), but if you call it a protein, you're not too far off.

Hemoglobin makes the blood more oxygen and CO2 soluble. It doesn't affect glucose solubility.

However, because hemoglobin is directly exposed to blood glucose, it does occasionally get glycated. When that happens, it changes to hemoglobin A1c. This type of glycation is successfully cleaned up at the end of the red blood cell's 120 day existence during hemolysis (and isn't an AGE). But because it's irreversible until then (the red blood cell can't deal with it), the amount of HA1c that's accumulated within your average red blood cell is a useful indicator of average blood glucose levels over the previous several weeks to months.

So the amount of glycated hemoglobin in a blood sample is used as a measure of how well a diabetic is managing their glucose.

In his post, Rooter seemed to be confused about the difference between the measurement of hemoglobin A1c and blood glucose. niner, on the other hand, was speculating that alagebrium, a crosslink breaker, would separate hemoglobin A1c into functioning hemoglobin and glucose. I don't think it will. Hemoglobin A1c isn't a crosslink, and it's not the specific kind of crosslink that alagebrium can break. So I don't think that alagebrium will have any effect on hemoglobin A1c levels.

#20 niner

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Posted 29 October 2007 - 04:17 AM

In his post, Rooter seemed to be confused about the difference between the measurement of hemoglobin A1c and blood glucose. niner, on the other hand, was speculating that alagebrium, a crosslink breaker, would separate hemoglobin A1c into functioning hemoglobin and glucose. I don't think it will. Hemoglobin A1c isn't a crosslink, and it's not the specific kind of crosslink that alagebrium can break. So I don't think that alagebrium will have any effect on hemoglobin A1c levels.

Actually, I was thinking about things like benfotiamine, pyridoxamine, carnosine, aminoguanidine... that in principle will prevent glycation, or things that lower glucose. If these things are working as advertised, you should see a lower rate of formation of HbA1c.

#21 rabagley

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Posted 29 October 2007 - 03:45 PM

Yeah, I thought of that yesterday, well after my original posting. Decided not to edit my post as it had already been up a day and that would be a material change.

Sorry for not giving you the benefit of the doubt there.

#22 Researcher42

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 05:10 PM

I read in this forum that someone mentioned the gact s/he has taken aminoguanidin for a number of years.

I am interested in knowing where he purchased it, recommended dosage and how much it costs (approx).

TIA

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#23 jayd

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 01:30 AM

Has anyone found a source to pruchase alagebrium yet?




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