• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
- - - - -

Vit D in Scientific American


  • Please log in to reply
80 replies to this topic

#1 DukeNukem

  • Guest
  • 2,008 posts
  • 141
  • Location:Dallas, Texas

Posted 04 November 2007 - 05:13 PM


The Nov. issue of Scientific American has quite an accurate 8-page article on vitamin D, and I recommend reading it. Some key points:

o "Extensive evidence now shows that D has potent anticancer actions and also serves as an important regulator of immune system response. Moreover, many of D's newly recognized benefits are maximized when it is present in the bloodstream at levels considerably higher than found in many populations."

o "At least 1000 genes are believed to be regulated by D."

o "One gene ramped up by [D] is well known for triggering growth arrest in normal cells whose DNA is damaged, reducing the risk to become cancerous."

o "Researchers have come to appreciate that a number of D's protective actions in the body might have evolved from functions originating at the molecule's source, in the skin. The growth-arresting influence of D on cancer cells makes sense in this light because excess UVB exposure is known to damage the DNA of skin cells, which can lead to them becoming cancerous."

o "Most people obtain D through sun exposure, and circulating D levels generally diminish in populations of increased latitude...a clear association is seen between increasing latitude and increased risk of several illnesses...For example, scientists...found an inverse relationship among 79 pairs of twins between increased sun exposure during childhood and an increased risk of MS [an auto-immune disease]."

o "Population rates of cancers...increase twofold from south to north in the US, for instance."

o "Sunshine induced D toxicity has never been observed." (Note: People in sunny/tropical regions easily get 5000 I.U. to 10,000 I.U. daily, as it only takes 5 to 15 mins of exposure for the body to create these levels. Even studies that have put people on much higher dosages for months reported no toxicity, though I would recommend higher dosages unless a person has cancer that they're fighting, then I'd go as high as 30,000 I.U. for at least 3-4 months.)

Yet, even with all of the mounting evidence, how many oncologists will recommend to their patients to supplement with vitamin D? My guess: Maybe 1%. Yet, pharmaceutical companies are hard at work trying to create a non-natural vitamin D mimic, that they can patent, and then rake in billions. Even though the real thing is already here, and as cheap as two stops at Starbucks.

#2 wayside

  • Guest
  • 344 posts
  • -1

Posted 04 November 2007 - 07:18 PM

Did they comment on what the optimal level of vitamin D in your blood is?

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#3 DukeNukem

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 2,008 posts
  • 141
  • Location:Dallas, Texas

Posted 04 November 2007 - 08:00 PM

They optimal amount, in their opinion, requires about 3000 - 5000 I.U. daily. Keep in mind, researchers are ultra-conservative.

#4 freedom40

  • Guest
  • 47 posts
  • 0

Posted 04 November 2007 - 08:30 PM

Duke,

I've always found it quite bizarre that many doctors tell their MS patients to stay out the sun. What is the reasoning behind this?

#5 stephen_b

  • Guest
  • 1,735 posts
  • 231

Posted 04 November 2007 - 08:56 PM

I was surprised that no mention was made of the Creighton study.

Stephen

#6 browser

  • Validating/Suspended
  • 319 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Austin, TX

Posted 04 November 2007 - 09:11 PM

Duke,

I've always found it quite bizarre that many doctors tell their MS patients to stay out the sun. What is the reasoning behind this?


Interesting. A Google search for "MS Sunshine" yielded this page WebMD

Prolonged, Moderate Exposure to the Sun's Rays May Fight MS

. OK, it's 3 years old and not from Pubmed.

Now I know there are a slew of drugs which predispose one to not having normal protection from UV or being especially sensitive to sun exposre and many prescription bottles say stay out of direct sunlight. I seem to remember that a sunburn actually handicaps the immune system.

Me, I'm awaiting my LEF 5,000 IU D3 I bought off Amazon cheaper than if I were a member of LEF spurred on by this thread. I thought I was adequately covered because even with tinted windows it's pretty hard not to keep a tan merely driving back and forth from work and shopping in my part of Texas. Though I hate LEFs infomercials and for profit non-profit activities of promoting snake oil over the years, they do inspect the factories where their stuff is made and do COAs on their private label supplements. With vitamin houses selling supplements which contain none of the listed ingredients and the influx from China, taking care which seller you buy your supplements from is an ever worrisome issue.

#7 rabagley

  • Guest
  • 215 posts
  • -0

Posted 04 November 2007 - 09:19 PM

freedom40, there's a general paranoia around skin cancer that seems to have blinded doctor's to the benefits of regular sun exposure. Most of them seem to think that advice to get some sun will be heard as "get a deep, rich tan!"

We do so badly at communicating issues that are not black and white, on or off. We are getting more and more kids with rickets because the US RDA for vitamin D is obscenely low and moms are so scared of letting their baby get a burn (and being doomed to cancer) that they don't let them outside the house without a thick coating of SPF 30.

There's a middle ground. Moderate quantities of direct sunshine are good for your body. The US RDA of vitamin D should be raised to 2000-5000 IU, depending on time of year and where you live. The other thing we need to do is find a vegetarian source of D3. D2 just doesn't cut it, which means that vegetarians currently get to choose between their beliefs and their health.

And back to wayside's question. A desirable blood concentration that I've heard in relation to heart health is a Vitamin D, 2-Hydroxy (Calcidiol) quantity of 60ng/ml. This is from Dr. Davis of The Heart Scan Blog. No affiliation, just an intensely curious reader.

#8 Shannon Vyff

  • Life Member, Director Lead Moderator
  • 3,897 posts
  • 702
  • Location:Boston, MA

Posted 04 November 2007 - 09:56 PM

Great summary of the key points--DukeNukem--thanks! Low vitamin D in a pregnant mother causes the baby's teeth to come in inadequately formed. My first child had perfect teeth, and my second two had subsequently worse teeth... I also had moved to a low sun area (willamette valley-Oregon) and moved to Texas for the sun, I try to get 15-20 minutes a day--as well as supplement. Finally my D blood averages are in the normal to high realm (per a test taken a year ago).

#9 bixbyte

  • Guest
  • 559 posts
  • 45
  • Location:End of the Galaxy
  • NO

Posted 04 November 2007 - 11:03 PM

About time someone woke up on Vitamin D
I have been taking 1,000 IU per day and 2,000 IU on sunday for at least one year thanks to SwansonVitamins.com
Swanson sells large doses of Vita D3 inexpensve

#10 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,054 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 04 November 2007 - 11:11 PM

Great discussion of vitamin D. Just don't get carried away with promoting suppliers and prices.

Just so everyone knows (newer members), Imminst forums have had trouble with spam and viral marketers in the past. "Buy this, buy that, wow - great prices here, great prices there, this supplier sucks, this supplier is great". Too much of this and posts will be deleted and accounts will be suspended.

#11 browser

  • Validating/Suspended
  • 319 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Austin, TX

Posted 05 November 2007 - 02:13 AM

Great discussion of vitamin D. Just don't get carried away with promoting suppliers and prices.

Just so everyone knows (newer members), Imminst forums have had trouble with spam and viral marketers in the past. "Buy this, but that, wow - great prices here, great prices there, this supplier sucks, this supplier is great". Too much of this and posts will be deleted and accounts will be suspended.


Sorry. I just found what I believed was quality at a good price and wanted to share my find. I had done the same on an Epicor thread and I'm just excited as heck (as is my family) that I've got something for a couple dollars that appears to have curred a chronic problem which the Urologist gave up on. Wasn't trying to promote.

I'm not quite a new member but I got lampooned by one of your Grand Imperial PooBa members a couple years ago and blew off this site. I became interested in this site again when things died down in Usenet sci.life-extension (is mentioning Usenet an advert?) and I didn't see the GIPB posting anymore.

BTW, it's a problem to mention where you bought something but not a problem for a high ranking member to go out of his way to make an ass out of another member? Why is that? If I pay enough money for membership will I gain the right to abuse others?

Edited by browser, 05 November 2007 - 03:25 AM.


#12 Shepard

  • Member, Director, Moderator
  • 6,360 posts
  • 932
  • Location:Auburn, AL

Posted 05 November 2007 - 01:50 PM

BTW, it's a problem to mention where you bought something but not a problem for a high ranking member to go out of his way to make an ass out of another member?  Why is that?  If I pay enough money for membership will I gain the right to abuse others?


I don't think Mind intended for his post to be threatening or abrasive. I'm fairly sure he was talking about only the identities that are created solely for the purpose of viral marketing, which are usually easy to spot once they really get going.

#13 Brainbox

  • Member
  • 2,860 posts
  • 743
  • Location:Netherlands
  • NO

Posted 05 November 2007 - 03:54 PM

I don't think Mind intended for his post to be threatening or abrasive.

I would like to second that. Everyone who did contribute to this thread is valued for posting sound contributions in general.
That said, viral marketing has become a great concern, hence Mind's quick assertion.

#14 krillin

  • Guest
  • 1,516 posts
  • 60
  • Location:USA

Posted 05 November 2007 - 05:40 PM

Duke,

I've always found it quite bizarre that many doctors tell their MS patients to stay out the sun. What is the reasoning behind this?


The only thing I can think of is to prevent overheating, which makes their nerves work even worse.

#15 Brainbox

  • Member
  • 2,860 posts
  • 743
  • Location:Netherlands
  • NO

Posted 05 November 2007 - 10:04 PM

Moved the vendor discussion here.

#16 senseix

  • Guest
  • 250 posts
  • 1

Posted 07 November 2007 - 06:46 AM

Great discussion of vitamin D. Just don't get carried away with promoting suppliers and prices.

Just so everyone knows (newer members), Imminst forums have had trouble with spam and viral marketers in the past. "Buy this, but that, wow - great prices here, great prices there, this supplier sucks, this supplier is great". Too much of this and posts will be deleted and accounts will be suspended.


Sorry. I just found what I believed was quality at a good price and wanted to share my find. I had done the same on an Epicor thread and I'm just excited as heck (as is my family) that I've got something for a couple dollars that appears to have curred a chronic problem which the Urologist gave up on. Wasn't trying to promote.

I'm not quite a new member but I got lampooned by one of your Grand Imperial PooBa members a couple years ago and blew off this site. I became interested in this site again when things died down in Usenet sci.life-extension (is mentioning Usenet an advert?) and I didn't see the GIPB posting anymore.

BTW, it's a problem to mention where you bought something but not a problem for a high ranking member to go out of his way to make an ass out of another member? Why is that? If I pay enough money for membership will I gain the right to abuse others?


Just wanted to say, i've upped my Vitamin D the past few weeks thanks to the users of this site. Also i wanted to say that i was very happy to see a smaller price for that epicor than what i would of been paying for if i had just purchased in capsules so again this site rules. Hope we all can stay friendly tho i think sometimes reading only words can be taken the wrong way, i feel that happens on both sides...

#17 hamishm00

  • Guest
  • 1,053 posts
  • 94
  • Location:United Arab Emirates

Posted 07 November 2007 - 12:29 PM

Is Vit D3 the best supplement to take? Not vit D2 or any of the others.

#18 quarter

  • Guest
  • 132 posts
  • -1

Posted 07 November 2007 - 02:44 PM

Yes I believe so, you want vitamin D3 cholecalciferol

#19 browser

  • Validating/Suspended
  • 319 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Austin, TX

Posted 07 November 2007 - 05:18 PM

Great discussion of vitamin D. Just don't get carried away with promoting suppliers and prices.

Just so everyone knows (newer members), Imminst forums have had trouble with spam and viral marketers in the past. "Buy this, but that, wow - great prices here, great prices there, this supplier sucks, this supplier is great". Too much of this and posts will be deleted and accounts will be suspended.


Sorry. I just found what I believed was quality at a good price and wanted to share my find. I had done the same on an Epicor thread and I'm just excited as heck (as is my family) that I've got something for a couple dollars that appears to have curred a chronic problem which the Urologist gave up on. Wasn't trying to promote.

I'm not quite a new member but I got lampooned by one of your Grand Imperial PooBa members a couple years ago and blew off this site. I became interested in this site again when things died down in Usenet sci.life-extension (is mentioning Usenet an advert?) and I didn't see the GIPB posting anymore.

BTW, it's a problem to mention where you bought something but not a problem for a high ranking member to go out of his way to make an ass out of another member? Why is that? If I pay enough money for membership will I gain the right to abuse others?


Just wanted to say, i've upped my Vitamin D the past few weeks thanks to the users of this site. Also i wanted to say that i was very happy to see a smaller price for that epicor than what i would of been paying for if i had just purchased in capsules so again this site rules. Hope we all can stay friendly tho i think sometimes reading only words can be taken the wrong way, i feel that happens on both sides...


I was happy as well. But we're not supposed to mention brands and sources.

I agree that words can be misinterpreted. But posting the picture of a jack ass is hard to misinterpret. That happened to have been in the nootropic section. There's something about nootropics which attract some really heated discussion and scam artists. There was a big splash on this site and on Usenet rec.drugs.smart about a then brand new supplier of nootropics. He operated under an assumed name and started spending the money people sent him on street drugs. Someone came in to get his business back in order and basically stole his customers, started a coop and took off with lots of peoples' money. The original supplier died of a heart attack at 25, apparently the result of all the stuff and street drugs he was taking. Usenet rec.drugs.smart is quiet now but I'm sure it, like the nootropic area here will become high drama once again.

I have seen some rude name calling in the Supplements area within the last few days. That is regrettable. Why someone can't say they're no scientific basis in your arguments instead of you should go back to coloring books is totally beyond me.

#20 senseix

  • Guest
  • 250 posts
  • 1

Posted 07 November 2007 - 06:03 PM

Browser, like you i've been gone from the site for sometimes, i think i left around the time that guy died of a heart attack. Sad story for sure, so i have missed alot of the nastyness and issues that you speak of. I suppose i could read in the nootropics section to get up to speed, tho i haven't read that section in a very long time.

#21 senseix

  • Guest
  • 250 posts
  • 1

Posted 07 November 2007 - 06:05 PM

Is Vit D3 the best supplement to take? Not vit D2 or any of the others.


Yes Vitamin D3.

#22 browser

  • Validating/Suspended
  • 319 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Austin, TX

Posted 07 November 2007 - 07:12 PM

Browser, like you i've been gone from the site for sometimes, i think i left around the time that guy died of a heart attack. Sad story for sure, so i have missed alot of the nastyness and issues that you speak of. I suppose i could read in the nootropics section to get up to speed, tho i haven't read that section in a very long time.


I think nootropics are of dubious value and I have boxes of bottles of stuff I intend to chuck. This is my opinion, from my trials of many, many nootropics. Most all of them either don't have an effect on me or are stimulants. I happen to be one of the people who can't take lots of things. Can't take arginine within 12 hours of bedtime else I'll get insomnia, can't take R-ALA else I'll become a speed freak, waking up in the morning after getting little sleep aching to take my morning R-ALA pick me up. I'll just let the nootropic thing die. I still have the bottle of Nefiracetam, for which I was lampooned handy, ready to take if I have to pull a couple of all nighters to get some consulting work done on a round the world trip. So I'll let the nootropic fora here go on without me (I did place one post, about a noted provider informing me that he gets his inositol from China and can't provide a COA) but I searched for the post containing the name of the provder, not reading the thread. Usenet's rec.drugs.smart offer some heartrending stories. Lots of people looking for supplements to treat things I believe should be treated by a shrink.

Having been cheated by the person who died and thrown out of the group his predecessor formed to scam people (because I kept saying that I would only buy stuff which was tested when it arrived, not based on the COA of a previous batch the Chinese company put out) I feel neutral about the death of one and the demise of the other promoter. I'm just thankful that the promoter's lackies have stopped sending me abusive email. I suspect it gets to be hard to defend someone who just took you for a couple thousand dollars.

#23 browser

  • Validating/Suspended
  • 319 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Austin, TX

Posted 07 November 2007 - 10:36 PM

I read somewhere in the recent threads dire warning of tissue calcification if taking D3 and the need to offset with K2. Since my D3 just arrived, I did some searching and found this PMID

#24 health_nutty

  • Guest
  • 2,410 posts
  • 94
  • Location:California

Posted 08 November 2007 - 01:19 AM

I read somewhere in the recent threads dire warning of tissue calcification if taking D3 and the need to offset with K2.  Since my D3 just arrived, I did some searching and found this  PMID


Excellent find. I recently upped my dosage from 3000IU to 6000IU. This is counter to my recent trend of reducing many of the dosages of my other supplements.

#25 senseix

  • Guest
  • 250 posts
  • 1

Posted 08 November 2007 - 01:46 AM

My dosage as of now is 4800IU i take one 2400IU in the am and one in the pm, does anyone know if splitting them up is necessary or taking them both at same time yields same results?

Edited by senseix, 08 November 2007 - 05:26 AM.


#26 rabagley

  • Guest
  • 215 posts
  • -0

Posted 08 November 2007 - 05:04 AM

hypercalcemia has only been recorded when people take > 20,000UI per day for months. 4000-10,000IU per day is what your skin can make if you spend any time outside. It's unlikely that dosages under 10,000IU/day are risky for an otherwise healthy person.

Even with that, the K2 is definitely a good co-supplement.

#27 krillin

  • Guest
  • 1,516 posts
  • 60
  • Location:USA

Posted 08 November 2007 - 11:27 PM

With vitamin D testing so cheap, don't blow off the real risks of overdose.

http://www.medicinen...rticlekey=80821High Calcium, Vitamin D Intake May Harm Aging Brain

As little as 3800 IU/day can cause hypercalcemia.

Edited by krillin, 08 November 2007 - 11:51 PM.


#28 Athanasios

  • Guest
  • 2,616 posts
  • 163
  • Location:Texas

Posted 09 November 2007 - 12:35 AM

With vitamin D testing so cheap, don't blow off the real risks of overdose.

http://www.medicinen...rticlekey=80821High Calcium, Vitamin D Intake May Harm Aging Brain

Many claim the supplementary calcium to have caused the brain lesions. Without other studies showing Vit D alone doing this, it is hard to argue.

As little as 3800 IU/day can cause hypercalcemia.

Vieth has since countered that study (Narang et al). He said the study had "major shortcomings, eg, <=6 subjects, follow-up times <=3 mo, nonspecification of the form of vitamin D used (vitamin D2 or vitamin D3), and nonverification of the accuracy of the stated dose."

Then he then argues how this study is wrongly used:

Hathcock states that the change in serum calcium with 95 mg vitamin D/d (the LOAEL) was described by the FNB as "modest," ie, small and statistically difficult to detect. However, on , the final FNB report uses the word modest in the context of the calcium change that Narang et al (9) evoked with 30 mg vitamin D/d (2). Because the article by Narang et al (9) is not readily available but is the only article used by the FNB to define the current UL, NOAEL, and LOAEL, some of its data are reproduced here for comparison (Table 1Go). Our study had the power to detect an increase in serum calcium as small as 0.06 mmol/L, well within the capability of detecting the 0.19-mmol/L increase (2.62 - 2.43 mmol/L; P < 0.01) that Narang et al (9) reported with 60 mg vitamin D/d. The LOAEL was based on mean serum calcium in the hypercalcemic range, 2.83 mmol/L (11.3 mg/dL), not on a modest increase.

Relevant articles:
http://jn.nutrition....full/136/4/1117
http://www.ajcn.org/...t/full/73/2/288
http://www.ajcn.org/...74/6/866?ck=nck

I do agree, however, that testing is cheap and worthwhile to see what your levels are.

#29 krillin

  • Guest
  • 1,516 posts
  • 60
  • Location:USA

Posted 09 November 2007 - 01:25 AM

With vitamin D testing so cheap, don't blow off the real risks of overdose.

http://www.medicinen...rticlekey=80821High Calcium, Vitamin D Intake May Harm Aging Brain

Many claim the supplementary calcium to have caused the brain lesions. Without other studies showing Vit D alone doing this, it is hard to argue.


Vitamin D increases blood calcium both by increasing transport from the intestine and by increasing outflow from bone, so high dietary calcium shouldn't be necessary for this effect. There's lots of rodent data showing the harm of excessive vitamin d.

Trends Mol Med. 2006 Jul;12(7):298-305.
Hypervitaminosis D and premature aging: lessons learned from Fgf23 and Klotho mutant mice.
Razzaque MS, Lanske B.

Department of Developmental Biology, Harvard School of Dental Medicine, Research and Educational Building, 190 Longwood Avenue, Boston, MA 02115, USA. mrazzaque@hms.harvard.edu

The essential role of low levels of vitamin D during aging is well documented. However, possible effects of high levels of vitamin D on the aging process are not yet clear. Recent in vivo genetic-manipulation studies have shown increased serum level of vitamin D and altered mineral-ion homeostasis in mice that lack either fibroblast growth factor 23 (Fgf23) or klotho (Kl) genes. These mice develop identical phenotypes consistent with premature aging. Elimination or reduction of vitamin-D activity from Fgf23 and Kl mutant mice, either by dietary restriction or genetic manipulation could rescue premature aging-like features and ectopic calcifications, resulting in prolonged survival of both mutants. Such in vivo experimental studies indicated that excessive vitamin-D activity and altered mineral-ion homeostasis could accelerate the aging process.

PMID: 16731043

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#30 browser

  • Validating/Suspended
  • 319 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Austin, TX

Posted 09 November 2007 - 02:04 AM

With vitamin D testing so cheap, don't blow off the real risks of overdose.

http://www.medicinen...rticlekey=80821High Calcium, Vitamin D Intake May Harm Aging Brain

As little as 3800 IU/day can cause hypercalcemia.


Yes, indeed the LEF 5,000 IU D3 has all sorts of dire warnings on the labels. My Power Maker II has all sorts of warnings to.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users