21 replies to this topic

[browser]

There is a mention on sites which sell resveratrol extracted from knotweed that their product is safe, whereas the genetically produced resveratrol product might contain genetic material. I eat genetic material all of the time, in addition to food with bacteria, yeast, molds in them. Is this just a marketing scare or is it actually possible to have a gene inserted into one's genome by injesting a chemical? I was under the impression that inserting genes was was a pretty difficult thing to do.

Thoughts, please?

[Shepard]

Do you have a link to one of those sites? That sounds ridiculous.

[browser]

Do you have a link to one of those sites? That sounds ridiculous.

He's one of the statements:

Transmax is entirely natural and contains absolutely no genetically-modified resveratrol.

From this site

Also saw it on Usenet sci.life-extension a month or so back. I asked what the person meant and was shot down.

[niner]

I eat "genetic material" all the time. BFD. It's just marketing.

[browser]

I eat "genetic material" all the time.  BFD.  It's just marketing.

I'd expect someone selling something like resveratrol would be a bit more honest. Some forms of marketing can blow credibility. BTW, the self taught "expert" in Canada bought the synthetic form for himself and his followers.

[niner]

I'd expect someone selling something like resveratrol would be a bit more honest. Some forms of marketing can blow credibility. BTW, the self taught "expert" in Canada bought the synthetic form for himself and his followers.

Biotivia seems to have a lot of issues with, umm, "communications". The "expert" in Canada? Perhaps you speak of the Perfect Master. Many of us here have sent him large sums of money.

[revaaron]

Man, what a load of BS. Sorry, but trans-resveratrol is trans-resveratrol- there are all sorts of other issues that could arise when comparing a synthetic and natural product (different isomers mucking up absorption of the desired molecule, as with R-ALA or L-theanine), having a "genetically modified" molecule is about as sensical as a milk cow undergoing a period of monetary inflation, requiring a currency revalue. "Don't be fooled by our competitor's milk! All their cows are economically unstable!"

Maybe if you bought into homeopathy there could be an argument for a "genetically modified" resveratrol. You know, like water memory, but with the resveratrol absorbing some of the radical micromemes emitted by the higher valence shells of the "bad vibe"-containing GMO evil ATGCs. Stick a magnet bracelet over that resveratrol for the night and it'll be fine in the AM!

Though, in all seriousness, I don't see why someone selling resveratrol would be any more honest than someone selling Hoodia. They have to find some edge over similar products, and if it isn't going to be quality, price, convenience, or effectiveness, they have to make *something* up.

[browser]

Biotivia seems to have a lot of issues with, umm, "communications".  The "expert" in Canada?  Perhaps you speak of the Perfect Master.  Many of us here have sent him large sums of money.

I speak of the guy who refuses to deal with you unless you supply every email you've ever had, every address, every bit of information about yourself. Unless he fully knows you, he cannot do business with you. He believes himself to be the perfect master and will quickly throw you out of the temple if he's in a bad mood (which he appeared to be before his wife starting reading books on happiness). The perfect master used to host the LEF fora, got busted by the feds for working online from home in Canada on the forum, against the terms of his work permit. The guy who's mother didn't like his name, so she gave him an entirely different one. The guy who got stiffed by LEF on the PCs he installed for them which resulted in him getting free supplements for life from LEF.

I had sent him about $1000 total and received powders in plastic bags. I made the mistake one day asking in his Yahoo forum whether or not this ALT-711 would not also work on the skin. Came a tirade about wasting his valuable time and my being thrown out of the temple. About that time Alteon starting licensing a variant of their product to cosmetic companies.

[krillin]

Here's Biotivia's explanation.

http://www.imminst.o...00

[Shepard]

The guy who's mother didn't like his name, so she gave him an entirely different one.

I always wondered what that was about.

[browser]

The guy who's mother didn't like his name, so she gave him an entirely different one.

I always wondered what that was about.

According to the Master himself, anti-semitism. Though I suspect with this man things run much, much deeper. Interesting that he told me that he lost most of the fortune he made running a PC installation company in a cryogenics company that went under because of competition with Saul Kent, but now on his website he says that he and his wife live on a fixed income. His photo is not, IMO, the picture of youth he said he and his wife were always complemented on. It's because of what appears to me to be paranoia, having to run the show and trying to cover up that he's grubbing for money that I just can't deal with the guy. An atheist who believes in the afterlife of cryogenics. A self taught expert, who never did the lab work or wrote the thesis. Too much nastiness and cognitive dissonance for me, thank you. It was hilarious how he used Usenet's sci.life-extension as his soapbox to denounce someone over the sale of a $1200 car deal which went sour. I don't expect nobility to be so petty.

[Anthony_Loera]

Here's Biotivia's explanation.

http://www.imminst.o...00

From Maxwatt:
How is this different than genetic material that ends up in bread, or beer? Genetic material per se would, I expect, be too large to be absorbed in the gut without being broken down.

From maxhealthback:
A very good question. I will refer this to Dr. Shastry however what comes to mind is that unless you are eating genetically-modified bread or drinking GM beer (not sure about Budweiser) the genetic material you are consuming is safe and has been consumed by the population at large over a long period of time.

Maxwatt, did Dr. Shastry ever provide a comment, or respond per the post? Maybe he PM'd you?

A

[maxwatt]

No response. I suggested having coffee or a beer with maxhealthback next time he was in my area, but we didn't connect. I would be more leery of resveratrol from a Chinese factory using bacterial or yeast synthesis, than from one doing plant extraction. I know the plant extractors, and their methods. The impurities are only what you'd find in the plant, which is edible. Urban knotweed, or from many parts of morthern China is problematic, too, because of high heavy metal content. South China has many rural areas that are still pristine, and would qualify as organic if they could afford to get certification. Back in the mountains the farmers are too poor to afford fertilizer, and lack of industrialization means no heavy metals in the soil.

"Brewed" resveratrol could be very good, but the unknown nature of the low levels of contaminants is worrisome. It is not a known danger, but an unknown factor. So far I've only dealt with plant extract.

I can also get luteolin, which appears to enhance resveratrol absorption. It may also activate sirtuin genes.

[browser]

No response.  I suggested having coffee or a beer with maxhealthback next time he was in my area, but we didn't connect.  I would be more leery of resveratrol from a Chinese factory using bacterial or yeast synthesis, than from one doing plant extraction.  I know the plant extractors, and their methods.  The impurities are only what you'd find in the plant, which is edible.  Urban knotweed, or from many parts of morthern China is problematic, too, because of high heavy metal content.  South China has many rural areas that are still pristine, and would qualify as organic if they could afford to get certification.  Back in the mountains the farmers are too poor to afford fertilizer, and lack of industrialization means no heavy metals in the soil.

"Brewed" resveratrol could be very good, but the unknown nature of the low levels of contaminants is worrisome.  It is not a known danger, but an unknown factor.  So far I've only dealt with plant extract. 

I can also get luteolin, which appears to enhance resveratrol absorption.  It may also activate sirtuin genes.

The guru in Canada bought and distributed the same Indian Brand Sinclair used. Yes, it's an Indian tradition to place pebbles in dahl to add to the weight, but by and large the Indian Government cares a lot more about quality drugs and chemicals then the Chinese do. So there are many people here taking Orchid brand "brewed" resveratrol.

I'm tossing out my supplements from a well known cut rate supplier because whenever I asked where one of the powders is made, the answer is invariable "China" and "no, I don't have a COA". Not that a COA would matter from many firms in China. We ran into this obstacle in a nootropics (but actually many other supplements as well) buyers group.

[niner]

Just for the record, Orchid used a chemical synthesis. I wouldn't trust a COA from the raw material supplier, unless I knew them pretty well. Paul's buyers group had their resveratrol independently analyzed in the States.

[rabagley]

Like maxwatt, the issue I have with GM synthesis of resveratrol is simply one of purity. I'm sure that everyone here can recount the story of how a Japanese company changed some parameters of their bacterially synthesized L-tryptophan (doing some genetic engineering to increase the yield) and all of a sudden, large numbers of people taking L-tryptophan start coming down with a debillitating autoimmune sickness.

When resveratrol is extracted from knotweed, we have a pretty good idea of the things that can adulterate the resulting extract and we pretty much don't care about them (as it should be). When resveratrol is made from a GM bacteria floating in a nutrient reactor, things are much more complex. How certain are we that the 0.1% "not t-res" fraction isn't some spectacularly toxic substance? It's happened before.

I could honestly care less about consuming traces of the GM bacteria and it's shiny, man-made chromosomes. What interests me is that someone I can trust has verified that everything in the powder is either resveratrol or otherwise not harmful to my body.

[Anthony_Loera]

The guru in Canada bought and distributed the same Indian Brand Sinclair used.  Yes, it's an Indian tradition to place pebbles in dahl to add to the weight, but by and large the Indian Government cares a lot more about quality drugs and chemicals then the Chinese do.  So there are many people here taking Orchid brand "brewed"  resveratrol.

I'm tossing out my supplements from a well known cut rate supplier because whenever I asked where one of the powders is made, the answer is invariable "China" and "no, I don't have a COA".  Not that a COA would matter from many firms in China.  We ran into this obstacle in a nootropics (but actually many other supplements as well) buyers group.

Because of the continuing recall of Chinese made items in general, I tend to agree with you. I know people want all Chinese products to be verified by a US lab for safety (be it herbs or toys). It should be common practice by now, but unfortunately it isn't.

A

[niner]

I could honestly care less about consuming traces of the GM bacteria and it's shiny, man-made chromosomes. What interests me is that someone I can trust has verified that everything in the powder is either resveratrol or otherwise not harmful to my body.

Excellent points. But do we really know what's in knotweed? The assumption that nothing in there is toxic is, well, just an assumption.

[maxhealthback]

In reply to the comment re. genetic material in resveratrol supplements. This is a very valid concern, or at least it should be. The possible presence of GMO material contamination in foods produced via genetic engineering is thoroughly documented and the classic example is the accidental release of Monsanto's Starlink corn, which contains Cry9C, an insecticidal protein, into the human food supply via its inclusion in corn chips.

The problem is that the GMO material that might be contained in a genetically synthesized substance is a novel food that humans have never eaten previously and, in the case of Starlink, caused severe allergic reactions. More serious, if anaphylaxis is not serious enough, effects on animals have been reported as well. It is not a matter of inserting genetic material, i.e. DNA, into the genetically engineered food. This is not the concern. It is simply a matter of contamination of the food/supplement with the genetic material, or any organic material for that matter, of the modified bacteria or fungus used to produce the food, or in this case, resveratrol.

Resveratrol can be and is produced synthetically in China and India for less than $200. kg. consequently there is a big temptation to substitute this for natural raw material. A COA, unless it tests for GMOs, will not tell you if they are present. This is why we do DNA testing of all of our raw material. In the US no notification is required of the presence of GMOs in food and no testing is done to detect contamination. In the EU, where we do much of our business, strict prohibitions are enforced regarding the import or sale of all GMO foods or consumables. Even one instance of GMO detection in any of our products or the botanicals we sell to industry, even if accidental, would likely have us banned from importing our products into the EU permanently.

[maxhealthback]

In reply to browser, please inform me of when and how you asked for clarification of the GMO free status of Transmax. I do not shoot down people who make inquiries of our products. I spend a great deal of time every day responding to questions from our customers and potential customers. If you did not receive a satisfactory answer to some question I would like to know about this. Thank you, James

[maxhealthback]

One more reply and I am out of here. CL did an evaluation of res supplements and published the results a few days ago. Anyone who wanted his product to be included in this evaluation could request that CL purchase his product (anonymously) and carry out the tests. Those companies which were not included in the test had the same opportunity to have their products tested as the companies whose product was tested. No one was excluded who wanted to participate.

If a company did not appear it is for one of two reasons; either the owner chose not to subject his product to independent safety, quality and potency evaluation, or it failed the tests. If the company enters the test voluntarily they are given the option by CL of not reporting the failure of their product.

Whoever said Biotivia has a communication problem is right. I admit I am a grumpy old man but I run a tight shop.

[browser]

In reply to browser, please inform me of when and how you asked for clarification of the GMO free status of Transmax. I do not shoot down people who make inquiries of our products. I spend a great deal of time every day responding to questions from our customers and potential customers. If you did not receive a satisfactory answer to some question I would like to know about this. Thank you, James

I said that I discussed the topic on Usenet, the original fora on the Internet dating back to its early DARPA days. The assertion was made that unless you knew which germs were involved in the brewing of resveratrol, you don't know what you're getting. I said something to the effect that that's what analysis of the product was for. The response came back that unless you know exactly what organism was involved in synthesis of brewed resveratrol, you had no idea what you were getting yet another time. The topic dealt with no particular manufacturer or seller of resveratrol. Frankly I would prefer to take resveratrol that's been brewed or synthesized and not extracted from knotweed (how do we know what was in the knotweed?) But that's my preference. I may have sent a query to you, but it wasn't a matter of the GMO status of Botavia. The typtophan incident used to scare us into not taking brewed resveratrol is in my opinion a scare tactic to favor extracted versus brewed resveratrol. Now if you find my sentiments an affront to you, I am sorry that you put yourself out in public then are insulted if someone questions the statements in your marketing. I recently read on eBay from someone selling Diamond V XPC organic that this must be the form used in Epicor. I'm not so sure, since it's never been stated. The research began because guys who were working in the area where Diamond V XPC was floating around didn't get sick as much. There was no mention of organic versus regular V XPC, assuming there's a difference that's not just regulartory. Such statements make for good marketing and that's all, IMO.

I am not currently in the market for resveratrol for reasons previously stated: we know what it does it mice and rats, a lot less about what it does in humans. People are proclaiming "my delivery system is better" and what's stated as a decent dose in one forum here is stated as not so in other forum here or on various vendor or researcher websites. And no, I can't separate the good facts from the bad posts. Each side seems equally compelling to me.

Stating "One more reply and I'm out of here" doesn't jive with the elucidating, elaborating, debating nature of these fora. If we don't all agree with you, then you'll win the discourse by leaving? I don't think so.

Edited by browser, 18 November 2007 - 06:24 PM.