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r-Lipoic Acid Interesting Article


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#1 dachshund

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 05:00 AM


FYI - Here is an article cited on Pete's blog, http://relentlessimp...R_lipoic_PK.pdf. I found it very interesting and refreshing to see solid research having extensive journal and patent references. I have been using NaRala, Superior Nutraceuticals, and overall been very pleased with the material.

You just need to be very wary that NaRala is not compatible with acetyl-l-carntine(HCl) powder or co-dissolved together in water. I dissolve about 500 mg NaRala in 16 oz. water and drink immediately on an empty stomach. Then 20 to 30 minutes later take 2 g ALCAR as powder. This seems to be a good combination taken once or twice daily. It may be a good idea to add an XR lipoic as well to maintain a low plasma level over many hours as well, however it gets spendy quickly as the Geronova RLA products are quite pricey.

All the best wishes to all ImmInst members for happy and healthy Holidays!

#2 niner

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 06:07 AM

Interesting article indeed. It was put out by Geronova, so there's a certain axe to be ground there. Just a thing to beware of. It mostly touts the amazing improvement in Cmax from the sodium salt of lipoic acid compared to the free acid. An increase of 25-fold(!) was seen in one case, although the AUCs told a different (and more important) story. There, the increase for the sodium salt was a more moderate 3.3-fold. Still a great improvement. The t1/2 of the sodium salt is incredibly quick. If you thought plain lipoic acid was bad (about 22-25 min), the sodium salt has median t1/2 = 13.5 minutes, n=12.

Here were some interesting tidbits:

Although previous studies indicate rac-LA does not accumulate in blood or tissues,17 in the present study baseline RLA was detected only in subjects who are regular users of a mixture of RLA and R-DHLA, even subsequent to a three-day washout period at levels of 0.05-0.25 mcg/mL.

Would it have mattered if they were not using DHLA? This is still good to hear, given the atrocious t1/2s.

And how about this heresy? (my bold)

PK data reveals pure RLA is significantly less bioavailable than RLA found as a 50-percent component of rac-LA; and RLA in a salt form is considerably more bioavailable than an equivalent dose of rac-LA (RLA + SLA)

Inexplicably, they go on to claim that S-LA inhibits the absorption of R-LA. Do they mean that the salt form of RLA was compared to a racemic salt? That doesn't seem to be their nomenclature. It is clear that the salt forms are more bioavailable than the free acids. I wish they would have tested a few of the commercially available time-release LAs.

All in all a nice study. I'd really like to see more of this kind of thing. (AOR?)

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#3 steelheader

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 03:31 PM

FYI - Here is an article cited on Pete's blog, http://relentlessimp...R_lipoic_PK.pdf. I found it very interesting and refreshing to see solid research having extensive journal and patent references. I have been using NaRala, Superior Nutraceuticals, and overall been very pleased with the material.

You just need to be very wary that NaRala is not compatible with acetyl-l-carntine(HCl) powder or co-dissolved together in water. I dissolve about 500 mg NaRala in 16 oz. water and drink immediately on an empty stomach. Then 20 to 30 minutes later take 2 g ALCAR as powder. This seems to be a good combination taken once or twice daily. It may be a good idea to add an XR lipoic as well to maintain a low plasma level over many hours as well, however it gets spendy quickly as the Geronova RLA products are quite pricey.

All the best wishes to all ImmInst members for happy and healthy Holidays!


Please elaborate on the incompatibility of NaRala and acetyl-l-carnitine. First thing in the morning I'm washing down a 100mg NaRala cap and a 500mg L-Carnosine cap with a cocktail of 500mg of acetyl-l-carnitine powder, pomegranate extract, rhodiola, and bacopa in a 10 oz glass of water.

#4 david ellis

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 05:56 PM

Please elaborate on the incompatibility of NaRala and acetyl-l-carnitine. First thing in the morning I'm washing down a 100mg NaRala cap and a 500mg L-Carnosine cap with a cocktail of 500mg of acetyl-l-carnitine powder, pomegranate extract, rhodiola, and bacopa in a 10 oz glass of water.



I had in the past used Puritan Pride's horse-sized pills that combined ALA and ALCAR. So, I capped up combination capsules of Na-RALA and ALCAR. Big difference, the mixture of white crystalline powders soon turned into a sticky crystalline yellow substance. So I have been taking ALA and ALCAR in separate capsules at the same time. I am glad to know that they should be taken at separate times.

#5 dachshund

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 03:43 AM

I believe it's acid/base chemistry. Acidic ALCAR which has bound hydrochloric acid reacts with NaRALA (a weak base) to produce NaCl, R-ALA & the free form ALCAR amino acid. R-ALA has very low water solubility and precipitates, and/or worse polymerizes into the sticky pale yellow material you described. The chemical incompatibility of Geronova NaRALA and ALCAR has been reported by other supplement manufacturers, see:

http://www.superiorn...thread.php?t=11

I believe the take home message is that NaRALA is chemically incompatible with acidic supplements, and likely is ion exchanged in the acidic stomach environment to form the free acid form of R-ALA, thus this is why I believe it is good to take it dissolved & well diluted into a large glass of water to hopefully mitigate spontaneous polymerization in the stomach. I do believe the results reported by Packer, et al. and think it is a superior material for delivering RLA into the blood stream. There may be merit to a combination of spike delivery of RLA by NaRALA coupled with an XR form of RALA. I might consider the LE Rdihydrolipoic product (R(H2)ALA is the reduced form) as it is more attractively priced (Health Mega Mall, or UN) than the Geronova products which contain 75 mg each RALA and R(H2)ALA.

#6 krillin

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 04:34 AM

And how about this heresy? (my bold)

PK data reveals pure RLA is significantly less bioavailable than RLA found as a 50-percent component of rac-LA; and RLA in a salt form is considerably more bioavailable than an equivalent dose of rac-LA (RLA + SLA)

Inexplicably, they go on to claim that S-LA inhibits the absorption of R-LA. Do they mean that the salt form of RLA was compared to a racemic salt? That doesn't seem to be their nomenclature. It is clear that the salt forms are more bioavailable than the free acids. I wish they would have tested a few of the commercially available time-release LAs.


My interpretation is RLA salt > racemic acid > RLA acid. The racemic acid does not polymerize, so the only explanation for the lower racemic absorption is that SLA interferes, but not as badly as polymerization.

#7 niner

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 05:11 AM

And how about this heresy? (my bold)

PK data reveals pure RLA is significantly less bioavailable than RLA found as a 50-percent component of rac-LA; and RLA in a salt form is considerably more bioavailable than an equivalent dose of rac-LA (RLA + SLA)

Inexplicably, they go on to claim that S-LA inhibits the absorption of R-LA. Do they mean that the salt form of RLA was compared to a racemic salt? That doesn't seem to be their nomenclature. It is clear that the salt forms are more bioavailable than the free acids. I wish they would have tested a few of the commercially available time-release LAs.


My interpretation is RLA salt > racemic acid > RLA acid. The racemic acid does not polymerize, so the only explanation for the lower racemic absorption is that SLA interferes, but not as badly as polymerization.

Do you mean higher racemic absorption? (compared to pure R) That's what they're saying. Polymerization of the pure R would explain it, although SLA interference doesn't.

#8 krillin

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 05:35 AM

My interpretation is RLA salt > racemic acid > RLA acid. The racemic acid does not polymerize, so the only explanation for the lower racemic absorption is that SLA interferes, but not as badly as polymerization.

Do you mean higher racemic absorption? (compared to pure R) That's what they're saying. Polymerization of the pure R would explain it, although SLA interference doesn't.


I meant lower racemic absorption compared to NaRALA. Neither of these polymerize, so SLA interference is a plausible theory.

#9 niner

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 05:34 AM

My interpretation is RLA salt > racemic acid > RLA acid. The racemic acid does not polymerize, so the only explanation for the lower racemic absorption is that SLA interferes, but not as badly as polymerization.

Do you mean higher racemic absorption? (compared to pure R) That's what they're saying. Polymerization of the pure R would explain it, although SLA interference doesn't.


I meant lower racemic absorption compared to NaRALA. Neither of these polymerize, so SLA interference is a plausible theory.

Oh, OK. The data in the paper shows that the absorption of the salt is way faster than the neutral acid. They say that NaRALA absorbs better because it's water soluble. Even though it's converted back to the free acid in the stomach, it's in a very finely divided state. So this mechanism explains the improved bioavailability of the salt compared to either the racemic or the R- versions of the free acid, without needing to invoke SLA interference. Also, with the neutral racemate having BETTER bioavailability than the neutral R, SLA interference would seem to be completely ruled out.

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 06:08 AM

I believe it's acid/base chemistry. Acidic ALCAR which has bound hydrochloric acid reacts with NaRALA (a weak base) to produce NaCl, R-ALA & the free form ALCAR amino acid. R-ALA has very low water solubility and precipitates, and/or worse polymerizes into the sticky pale yellow material you described. The chemical incompatibility of Geronova NaRALA and ALCAR has been reported by other supplement manufacturers, see:

http://www.superiorn...thread.php?t=11

I believe the take home message is that NaRALA is chemically incompatible with acidic supplements, and likely is ion exchanged in the acidic stomach environment to form the free acid form of R-ALA, thus this is why I believe it is good to take it dissolved & well diluted into a large glass of water to hopefully mitigate spontaneous polymerization in the stomach. I do believe the results reported by Packer, et al. and think it is a superior material for delivering RLA into the blood stream. There may be merit to a combination of spike delivery of RLA by NaRALA coupled with an XR form of RALA. I might consider the LE Rdihydrolipoic product (R(H2)ALA is the reduced form) as it is more attractively priced (Health Mega Mall, or UN) than the Geronova products which contain 75 mg each RALA and R(H2)ALA.


Health Mega Mall?

#11 krillin

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 10:17 PM

Oh, OK. The data in the paper shows that the absorption of the salt is way faster than the neutral acid. They say that NaRALA absorbs better because it's water soluble. Even though it's converted back to the free acid in the stomach, it's in a very finely divided state. So this mechanism explains the improved bioavailability of the salt compared to either the racemic or the R- versions of the free acid, without needing to invoke SLA interference. Also, with the neutral racemate having BETTER bioavailability than the neutral R, SLA interference would seem to be completely ruled out.


I don't think we can rule it in or out. The only facts we have are

NaRALA > racemic
racemic > polymerized RLA

Do we have any data on NaRALA vs verified unpolymerized RLA? Has anyone read reference 43 to see how careful they were? Without that, we can't tell if it's SLA interference or the salt being better than unpolymerized acid.

#12 niner

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 04:34 AM

Oh, OK. The data in the paper shows that the absorption of the salt is way faster than the neutral acid. They say that NaRALA absorbs better because it's water soluble. Even though it's converted back to the free acid in the stomach, it's in a very finely divided state. So this mechanism explains the improved bioavailability of the salt compared to either the racemic or the R- versions of the free acid, without needing to invoke SLA interference. Also, with the neutral racemate having BETTER bioavailability than the neutral R, SLA interference would seem to be completely ruled out.


I don't think we can rule it in or out. The only facts we have are

NaRALA > racemic
racemic > polymerized RLA

Do we have any data on NaRALA vs verified unpolymerized RLA? Has anyone read reference 43 to see how careful they were? Without that, we can't tell if it's SLA interference or the salt being better than unpolymerized acid.

Well, we really don't know the polymerization state of either the RLA or the racemic, but I can believe that the R is prone to polymerization and the rac less so. At any rate, I finally understand what you're saying, and if we assume those polymerization states, then we can't rule SLA interference in or out. It does raise questions for the "racemic is crap, you should only use R" crowd, doesn't it? It looks like maybe we should be using the salt form, but where does that leave the timed release products? Not to mention NaRALA in solid form. I'm starting to get irritated at supplement manufacturers who don't prove that their formulations work through the use of pharmacokinetic analyses.

#13 dachshund

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 05:33 AM

Great comment! Take a look at this review paper on XR Lipoic verses quick release lipoic. I'll just stick with the NaRALA from Geronova. Health Mega Mall is a low cost source for LEF products, have ordered from them frequently with quick service & no problems, http://www.babeskin.com/.

CRLA & QRLA review article.

http://relentlessimp...gainst_crla.pdf

Happy Holidays!

#14 kurt

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Posted 24 December 2007 - 03:55 AM

I've also been taking the stabilized salts of lipoic acid with ALCAR with a snack consisting of fruits(which itself could be acidic). I wonder if they had gone to waste?

Does it mean that NaRala should not be taken along with food? Food, esp protein, stimulates HCl production.

FYI - Here is an article cited on Pete's blog, http://relentlessimp...R_lipoic_PK.pdf. I found it very interesting and refreshing to see solid research having extensive journal and patent references. I have been using NaRala, Superior Nutraceuticals, and overall been very pleased with the material.

You just need to be very wary that NaRala is not compatible with acetyl-l-carntine(HCl) powder or co-dissolved together in water. I dissolve about 500 mg NaRala in 16 oz. water and drink immediately on an empty stomach. Then 20 to 30 minutes later take 2 g ALCAR as powder. This seems to be a good combination taken once or twice daily. It may be a good idea to add an XR lipoic as well to maintain a low plasma level over many hours as well, however it gets spendy quickly as the Geronova RLA products are quite pricey.

All the best wishes to all ImmInst members for happy and healthy Holidays!


Please elaborate on the incompatibility of NaRala and acetyl-l-carnitine. First thing in the morning I'm washing down a 100mg NaRala cap and a 500mg L-Carnosine cap with a cocktail of 500mg of acetyl-l-carnitine powder, pomegranate extract, rhodiola, and bacopa in a 10 oz glass of water.



#15 krillin

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Posted 24 December 2007 - 05:03 AM

Great comment! Take a look at this review paper on XR Lipoic verses quick release lipoic. I'll just stick with the NaRALA from Geronova.


Good plan. Here's an old thread I found that makes me want to avoid DHLA

#16 krillin

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Posted 24 December 2007 - 05:06 AM

I've also been taking the stabilized salts of lipoic acid with ALCAR with a snack consisting of fruits(which itself could be acidic). I wonder if they had gone to waste?

Does it mean that NaRala should not be taken along with food? Food, esp protein, stimulates HCl production.


Food interferes with racemic ALA absorption, so it's not much of a stretch to assume it interferes with NaRALA too.

http://lpi.oregonsta...r/othernuts/la/

Oral LA supplements are better absorbed on an empty stomach than with food. Taking racemic LA with food decreased peak plasma LA concentrations by about 30% and total plasma LA concentrations by about 20% compared to fasting.



#17 niner

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Posted 24 December 2007 - 06:01 AM

CRLA & QRLA review article.

http://relentlessimp...gainst_crla.pdf

Wow. That paper has some major ramifications. For starters, it doesn't make AOR look very good. They have pushed controlled release LA for a while. According to Carlson et al., the authors of this paper, CR LA is not only unnecessary, but it might even be ineffective. They go further to intimate that it may even be harmful, but I don't think they make a very good case there.

A major point they raise has to do with the mechanism of activity of LA. They say that while LA is an antioxidant in vitro, its in vivo action is very different. It is actually a pro-oxidant(!) and induces a hormetic response:

LA induces a beneficial stress response: Evidence indicates the in vivo mechanisms of action of LA involve activation of the natural environmental stress response systems which up-regulate the so-called ‘early response genes’, thus activating Phase II detoxification enzymes via Nr-f2 and the antioxidant response element (ARE) (63). Activation of these genetic systems is nature’s way of making the body more adaptable to stress and environmental insults. One physiological result of Nr-f2 and ARE activation is a significant increase of endogenous antioxidants (vitamin C, vitamin E, GSH, etc.) and antioxidant enzyme systems (64, 86) Despite its abbreviated half-life, this is how LA is able to affect the redox status of the cell, not by acting as a direct scavenger of free radicals. The theory that LA acts as a direct scavenger of free radicals, or that it acts directly as an ‘antioxidant’ in the cell has been disregarded as a valid theory by most LA experts several years ago (6) and yet is still being advanced by the advocates of CRLA. To date there is lack of evidence that LA acts this way in vivo and a large body of research demonstrating the ‘stress-response’ theory of action for therapeutic LA. Thus, the misguided or ill-conceived basis for suggesting increased efficacy of CRLA products due to their increased “free-radical scavenging” or “antioxidant properties” due to an increased MRT forms an erroneous rationale.

LA up-regulates the early response genes by inducing a mild “hormetic” or “redox stress” which paradoxically confers protection against oxidative stress but requires a threshold concentration to initiate the therapeutic response. The activation of PI3-K & MAP kinases (65, 66) and up-regulation of Nr-f2 (63) heme oxygenase [HO-1] (66-68) and heat shock proteins [HSPs] (69-70) indicate the mechanism of action of LA involves induction of a stress response that resets the cell’s homeostatic mechanisms that become disrupted; for example, during age-related diseases and diabetes. The typical range of concentrations required to induce the hormetic, Phase II (therapeutic) response is 10-20 μg/mL (~50-100 μM) and can be achieved with multiple oral doses of typical or QRLA preparations (e.g. Na-RLA) (2, 60, 71). Like the name “early response” implies, activation requires only short time periods of 15 minutes-1 hr, which coincides closely with the plasma time course of both IVLA & QRLA products (68). If this theory is correct, and all of the existing evidence indicates it is, then high concentrations, rapid plasma clearance and metabolism of LA are essential for both the safety and the efficacy in vivo (1, 2). It further suggests that CRLA preparations require more toxicity data due to their increased plasma MRT before being considered safe. Furthermore, it is not valid to utilize QRLA safety or efficacy data to claim CRLA is safe and effective (88).


If this is the case, then doesn't it call into question the use of ALA as a "mitochondrial antioxidant" that we all combine with ALCAR? The coupling of these two drugs comes from Bruce Ames' work, where ALCAR was shown to restore the function of aged mitochondria, but also to create more ROS. He showed that LA solved the ROS problem in vitro, and formed a company to market the combination under the name Juvenon. (Tory Hagen, a co-founder of Juvenon, was the PhD advisor of Anthony Smith, an author of the above paper.) Anyway, if LA is acting in this entirely different manner involving the upregulation of enzymatic antioxidant systems, is it effective in the mitochondria in vivo? Is it safe to take ALCAR?

Finally, a few caveats about this paper: The lead author, Carlson, is the designer of Geronova's supplement line, so he has a dog in the fight. This is not to impugn his work, but it's a conflict of interest. I don't know where if anywhere this manuscript has been published. The sometimes sniping tone of the paper suggests that Carlson is pretty unhappy with the parts of the supplement industry that are pushing controlled release LA. He may be entirely within his rights to feel that way (if I'm reading him right) but it isn't the kind of thing you find in a journal article.

#18 krillin

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Posted 24 December 2007 - 06:54 AM

If this is the case, then doesn't it call into question the use of ALA as a "mitochondrial antioxidant" that we all combine with ALCAR? The coupling of these two drugs comes from Bruce Ames' work, where ALCAR was shown to restore the function of aged mitochondria, but also to create more ROS. He showed that LA solved the ROS problem in vitro, and formed a company to market the combination under the name Juvenon. (Tory Hagen, a co-founder of Juvenon, was the PhD advisor of Anthony Smith, an author of the above paper.) Anyway, if LA is acting in this entirely different manner involving the upregulation of enzymatic antioxidant systems, is it effective in the mitochondria in vivo? Is it safe to take ALCAR?


AOR's article says that RALA's most important mechanism for fighting mitochondrial free radicals is the lowering of the NADH/NAD+ ratio. Best case scenario, a spike dose will make a large change in that ratio that will be sustained after the RALA is cleared away. Free radicals will be nipped in the bud and extra antioxidants won't need to be on hand at all times.

#19 maxwatt

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Posted 24 December 2007 - 10:54 AM

Some thoughts:

The rational for supplementing with ALCAR is to increase the mitochondrial membrane potential; the resulting ROS increase requires quenching antioxidants at the mitochondrial level, either R-ALA, PBN, or both. When S-ALA reacts with ROS, the reduced form remains in the cell, unlike R-ALA which is transported out of the cell. Some think it is not a good thing to have all that reduced S-ALA sitting around in one's cells, hence their preference for the more expensive R enantiomer.

Resveratrol improves mitochondrial size and function, and increases their number. It seems to restore function to the level of younger cells. I believe supplementation with resveratrol obviates the need to use ALCAR for this purpose.

In short, if one supplements with resveratrol, one may not need ALCAR and R-ALA.

#20 psychenaut

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Posted 24 December 2007 - 05:07 PM

FYI, original and background information regarding these two papers from my blog:

Post #1 Controlled Release Lipoic Acid - No Evidence for Efficacy
Post #2 R-Lipoic Acid Pharmacokinetics in Humans

Pete

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Posted 24 December 2007 - 07:33 PM

FYI, original and background information regarding these two papers from my blog:

Post #1 Controlled Release Lipoic Acid - No Evidence for Efficacy
Post #2 R-Lipoic Acid Pharmacokinetics in Humans

Pete


Interesting!

Edited by nutraplanet, 24 December 2007 - 07:35 PM.


#22 liorrh

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 06:30 AM

so just take some spin traps or if poor NAC instead of ala with your alcar and be done with it.

ALA gives me terrible blood sugar drops. I msut eat carbs after o/w I get sleepy and fatigued. usefull for glucose disposal but just a little too potent. anyone else doing low carb noticnig those blood sugar drops?

#23 maxwatt

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 12:14 PM

so just take some spin traps or if poor NAC instead of ala with your alcar and be done with it.

ALA gives me terrible blood sugar drops. I msut eat carbs after o/w I get sleepy and fatigued. usefull for glucose disposal but just a little too potent. anyone else doing low carb noticnig those blood sugar drops?

No, not at all . Noe effect. But then, when I eat carbs, my blood sugar barely rises either.

#24 kenj

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 07:38 PM

I've eliminated a terrible post-meal tiredness, by lowering my overall calories with RLA, although it took a while for my body to adjust.
Seems to help *lowering* calorie intake, when taking RLA if sensitive to it.

#25 liorrh

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 07:15 PM

I've eliminated a terrible post-meal tiredness, by lowering my overall calories with RLA, although it took a while for my body to adjust.
Seems to help *lowering* calorie intake, when taking RLA if sensitive to it.


sounds contraindicative

#26 mrak1979

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 06:16 PM

na-rala isn't compatible with alcar? I take the aor r-sr controlled release version... does anyone know if this is better with alcar?

#27 steelheader

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 12:57 AM

FYI - Here is an article cited on Pete's blog, http://relentlessimp...R_lipoic_PK.pdf. I found it very interesting and refreshing to see solid research having extensive journal and patent references. I have been using NaRala, Superior Nutraceuticals, and overall been very pleased with the material.

You just need to be very wary that NaRala is not compatible with acetyl-l-carntine(HCl) powder or co-dissolved together in water. I dissolve about 500 mg NaRala in 16 oz. water and drink immediately on an empty stomach. Then 20 to 30 minutes later take 2 g ALCAR as powder. This seems to be a good combination taken once or twice daily. It may be a good idea to add an XR lipoic as well to maintain a low plasma level over many hours as well, however it gets spendy quickly as the Geronova RLA products are quite pricey.

All the best wishes to all ImmInst members for happy and healthy Holidays!


Following your suggested procedure, I've been stirring 100 mg of NaRala (contents of a Doctor's Best capsule) into a glass of water and drinking, waiting 20 or 30 minutes to take Alcar. Today I happened to leave the NaRala solution sitting for a few minutes and it precipitated white stringy material. Does that happen with your NaRala solution? It looks like my NaRala is polymerizing in water.

#28 dachshund

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 04:02 AM

Yes, I have observed this too. Upon sitting in water for only a few minutes that a stringy straw colored precipitate forms. I believe the NaRALA is more sensitive than one might expect from how it is advertised, I still believe it is a good product however. I drink the fully dissolved powder immediately, usually I dissolve about 500 mgs taken twice daily. It is much more economic to purchase as bulk powder from Superior Nutraceuticals $199 for 250 g.

Interestingly, you can easily prepare the racemic Na-ALA by mixing a small amount of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) with lipoic acid powder. I have done this many times and it does not form a stringy precipitate in water over hours. Perhaps it is having a slight excess of sodium bicarb. that keep the water slightly alkaline which enhances stability.

Also, the Juvenon website states this month that they believe a dosage spike of lipoic acid is more effective than the XR delivery of lipoic acid, see Ben Treadwell's Q&A at http://juvenon.com/jhj/vol6no12.htm

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#29 niner

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 04:27 AM

Yes, I have observed this too. Upon sitting in water for only a few minutes that a stringy straw colored precipitate forms. I believe the NaRALA is more sensitive than one might expect from how it is advertised, I still believe it is a good product however. I drink the fully dissolved powder immediately, usually I dissolve about 500 mgs taken twice daily. It is much more economic to purchase as bulk powder from Superior Nutraceuticals $199 for 250 g.

Interestingly, you can easily prepare the racemic Na-ALA by mixing a small amount of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) with lipoic acid powder. I have done this many times and it does not form a stringy precipitate in water over hours. Perhaps it is having a slight excess of sodium bicarb. that keep the water slightly alkaline which enhances stability.

Also, the Juvenon website states this month that they believe a dosage spike of lipoic acid is more effective than the XR delivery of lipoic acid, see Ben Treadwell's Q&A at http://juvenon.com/jhj/vol6no12.htm

Thanks for the synthesis tip, dachshund. You could add a very small amount of bicarbonate to the NaRALA solution, and that would probably inhibit polymerization also, if that's what's happening when the stringy material forms. Heaven help you when it hits the stomach, although the PK speaks for itself. I wonder if NaRala really takes special handling, like is it just hopeless if you take it in a capsule as opposed to solution? I checked out the Juvenon journal. Here's what Treadwell said: (my bold)

Dr. Treadwell answers your questions about Juvenon™ Cellular Health Supplement
QUESTION: Does Juvenon contain time-released alpha lipoic acid? I have heard that the half-life of lipoic acid is on the order of two hours. — S.G.

ANSWER: Although the alpha lipoic acid in Juvenon is not time-released, we believe it functions to improve the cellular redox status (oxidized versus reduced state of the cell), which in turn helps promote cellular health for many hours even after it has been metabolized and excreted. Time-release may not be as good as immediate release in the sense that it may not result in a large enough concentration of ALA to trigger this event. However, this is speculation and remains to be experimentally determined.


That seems like an honest answer, although given that their product has always used the most low-dollar form, racemic ALA with no counterion or extended release formulation, it's also in Juvenon's interest to say this. It's probably true just the same, but once again it's just my paranoid distrusting nature at work. (ALA t1/2 ca. 25min, NaRALA t1/2 ca. 13 min. FWIF.)
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