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Religion? Philosophy?


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#1

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 12:32 AM


Religion or “Coercion”?
Seeking clarification.

A bit of history: My high school sweetheart and I left for Canada near the end of the Vietnam War. I dropped out of high school though my grades were good enough and I had some college level training while there, I didn’t pass a required course, Government. I saw it as just so much garbage. After a short time in that class the teachers refused to acknowledge my often-raised hand because I asked questions they could not answer such as “How does a bill of rights assure the rights?” Seems I was on the track of understanding some of Lysander Spooner’s ideas ( http://www.lysanders...rg/bib_poll.htm ). Some three years previous I was on a debate team in Junior High where I argued we needed to stay in Vietnam. I thought I was well prepared; my father who had degrees in political science had helped me. The other side of the debate basically opened my eyes and convinced me that we were in Vietnam under false pretenses, off-shore oil, rubber plantations, military contracts, business reasons were the paramount reason as to why we were killing and being killed there. Only recently did I learn that the Gulf of Tonkin event didn’t happen and was an instance of false-flag propaganda. I couldn’t begin to believe that it was a war of ideologies as communism and capitalism had eluded me as to having any distinct definition.

Due to my being raised in what can be termed a Christian leaning nation, I early on decided I would not read the Bible. I did not read the Koran either as it seemed to be basically an offshoot of Christianity. Instead I read of Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and others. I wanted to get a fair understanding and suspected the early Baptist church Sunday school and the predominance of Christian trainings and assumptions presented in the general media had already given me a rudimentary understanding of that ideology. To this day, I still haven’t read the Bible (though I’ve carefully studied other books entitled “Bible” such as numerous editions of Winn L. Rosch’s “Hardware Bible” on personal computers).

Within the last two years my father died of brain cancer. He was 82. At the age of 72 he had fallen off a roof and broke both of his wrists. In the hospital he contracted a multiple drug resistant staph. infection (MRSA) and almost died. Though a staunch humanist and not a Christian for most of his life, while under various almost hypnotic trance inducing drugs in the hospital fighting his infection, my younger sister brought her pastor to his bedside to preach of Christianity. After that he was never the same again. He had been very careful and attentive to his diet and supplements but he lost it then. He adopted Aspartame as his preferred sweetener and I understand he consumed a great deal. If he had done a bit of research he would have uncovered that Donald Rumsfeld was the CEO of the company that developed Aspartame and that he was quite conniving in how he got the FDA to approve it despite the evidence of causing brain cancer, perhaps especially as a synergetic reaction with other substances such as MSG ( http://www.newswithv...exclusive15.htm ). My father was at least convinced that Donald Rumsfeld was a murderous sociopath and if he had been aware of his link to Aspartame, he might still be with us today.

While in a nursing home, I visited with my dad for a last time. His close friend and pastor, who spoke with him while previously in the hospital ten years ago, sat next to me on a small couch. The pastor spoke directly to my father about how he was going to another beautiful place forever more. After his monologue I interjected saying “unless a different cosmology model makes more sense.” My step-mom asked “How?” I told her that dynamic nonlinear cosmologies without beginning or end appeared more likely according to science. The pastor spoke up and said that science did not mean much to him. I wanted to ask him if that meant he was into depending on untrustworthy data but kept silent. It was a delicate situation and it was not time for my dad to have any more confusion than he was experiencing.

After the pastor left I drew some quick diagrams that I shared with my dad, step-mom and younger sister.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Though I stopped doing business with the web site that hosts those photos more than a year ago they keep the whole site intact and available, gratis, which I find nice. One of the first major donations I have received.

My sister pointed at the one I had drawn for Hinduism and said “Kind of loopy, huh?” and we had a chuckle. My sister had excelled in drama classes in high school and college, participating in a number of plays. I could tell when she wasn’t all that serious about something and thought her embracing Christianity for about 20 to 30 years was not something she really believed but did so out of convenience, for her husband, her job, her church friends. Seems it was basically a passion play.

Got to thinking about that word religion. Where in speech do we find it rather incontrovertibly correct? In the sentence, “his conviction was religious” we are not necessarily speaking of any of these things that pass for religion but actually of having a strong belief. “Strong belief” can be taken two ways, a belief that a person came to through numerous experiences of convincing evidence or a belief that has ample force associated with its promulgation. Seems this is reflected in the dichotomous nature of faith, which can be based on knowledge, expectations from evidence, or be without evidence, basically accepting a proposition on the basis of some one’s professing a truth. After my dad died, I learned of a phenomenon called epistemological relativism or epistemic relativism. It is basically the idea that truth is a matter of opinion and that those that are offered with the greatest force actually determine truth. After some thought and research I came to understand that science is actually the opposite, a relative epistemology. Appears to me that is a succinct way to describe the scientific method that brings some light upon what science is, an effort to share and use trustworthy data. Science by its nature emphasizes a moral platform, to inform rather than misinform. Truth in science is always relative and subject to clarification unlike that offered by its opposite which is basically the idea that “might makes right” or that force decides.

In my attempts to sift, weigh and clarify terms and understanding of sociology I have come to understand that the wide-spread tendency of people to try to adopt epistemic relativism as a working platform stems from our ignorance, our alienation, our existentialism. Not one of the social experiments we call nations has spread successfully to embrace all of humanity. In fact, if you look at them, their supposed boundaries are not real. These things do not qualify as distinct systems from even a cursory application of general systems theory. Their very foundation, our trust in them as worthwhile and defensible, is based on force, not reason. In my local chapter of the American Humanist Association an elderly gentlemen gave a presentation of a book he had written on the development of civilization. He stated that the United States was better because it had defeated and supplanted the Native American societies. Myself and perhaps about two other people there out of about twenty found that to be ludicrous. That may have been the beginning of my falling out with the American Humanist Association. I now consider America an unreal nonexistent fallacy so the American Humanist Association entails a contradiction in terms in my eyes. Humanism seems to be the driving force behind science, the attempt to share true understanding in hopes that general understanding can improve. Of course, much of what passes for science now-a-days is just business as usual, seeking to keep people ignorant and force less understanding for the sake of preserving dependent markets. Appears that things that pass themselves off as religion or science are too often actually neither but rather exercises in coercion for the gain of some at the expense of others.

Upon my experiences and understanding I thought it likely I could come to a better understanding of this word “religion.” If someone who professes having a religion is not really believing in the doctrines but actually just reflecting a belief in epistemic relativism and seeking to align themselves with the most forceful, then it is not really strongly held belief but actually strongly promulgated and defended beliefs through force, not reason. That makes these so-called religions something other than actually religious conviction. I wanted a word that would reflect this and be succinct as well as easy to remember. I think the word “coercion” works. What often passes for religion or philosophy is actually a belief in coercion. What surprises me is how many, an obvious majority of humanity, actually consider and attempt to force ideological understandings rather than convey them through sharing of knowledge. It is not just these things that falsely call themselves religions but many cults and philosophical stances that are just similar reflections of this “might makes right” dictum. That seems to be the most common belief and I also think it is mistaken and terminal. You cannot have a high potential information handling entity grow in its abilities without checks and balances. Either through destroying ourselves through lack of appreciating and emphasizing the moral basis of science or seeing the error of our ways and correcting our behavior, finding a viable way to share all most effectively, either way, epistemic relativism is terminal.

As far as I can tell, epistemic relativism is the justification behind propaganda, disseminating it and often, believing it too. It justifies censorship and ostracizing of contradictory opinions and the people who have them. I believe this gives us a better handle on how to pursue coherency in social undertakings where win-win strategies get an emphasis rather than a zero-sum game where for some to win, others have to lose. I do not believe it is wise to make enemies of the most powerful information handling entities in our environment. For the sake of us, for the sake of humanity, I suggest pursuing science as our moral and obligatory responsibility, a restriction to our freedoms that gives us the greatest sustainable freedom.

Still, I seek greater clarification and if any one might suggest a better word than “coercion” that might succinctly describe these passion plays of force over reason, I would be appreciative. I do find that calling them religions or philosophies does not make sense. Appears there are convictions we can hold that are based in science that affirm a spiritual understanding, a moral imperative, a reason to existence, a strongly held belief based on trustworthy evidence, a relatively valid religion. I suspect we need to find these and share them and put them into practice if we are not to destroy ourselves via one or more of a myriad of possible great mistakes.

#2 luv2increase

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 01:02 AM

I can't believe you said those things to your father on his death bed. Regardless of where you are attempting to go with this thread or whether or not there is a God or not a God, you were in the wrong for doing what you did at that point. You are the one that probably caused him to die. You took out all hope and peace from him. He may have even been ashamed of you since you opposed his 'personal' belief in God. A good analogy would be someone putting a knife in your heart.



You even stated

It was a delicate situation and it was not time for my dad to have any more confusion than he was experiencing.

Well, I think you blew that one right out the window. A man is about to die and has a sincere belief that he will go to Heaven, and you go and ruin it for him.



I'm sorry that your dad died, but boy do you have problems. That was a cruel, harsh, and arrogant action. I mean really, why would one get a debate with their father's pastor and question his beliefs while the father is on his death bed? You are sick.

Edited by luv2increase, 23 December 2007 - 01:03 AM.


#3

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 01:28 AM

I believe my father appreciated that I had learned the best from him. I did not debate the pastor. My communications created some consolation for my step-mother and my sister. I'm closer to my step-mom now as unlike my sister and her pastor, we both find war insane as did my dad. We do not seek to murder others in the name of our own righteousness. I do not know about you, but seems you are willing to assume the worst, even bend the circumstances to support your maliciousness. I am sorry that you do not appear to have reason about you, sorry that you should seek to blame.

#4 luv2increase

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 01:35 AM

I believe my father appreciated that I had learned the best from him. I did not debate the pastor. My communications created some consolation for my step-mother and my sister. I'm closer to my step-mom now as unlike my sister and her pastor, we both find war insane as did my dad. We do not seek to murder others in the name of our own righteousness. I do not know about you, but seems you are willing to assume the worst, even bend the circumstances to support your maliciousness. I am sorry that you do not appear to have reason about you, sorry that you should seek to blame.



His best for you would probably have been taking up religion, most notably his.


Anyways, I have a quote of braz from the 'Why Does Faith Deserve Respect' thread.

The reason why people think that faith deserves respect, is because faith is the most/ one of the most important things in a believer's life. Therefore, if you bash on it, you are most likely to create a great conflict with the faith's practitioner. Generally, it's in our genes and our education to avoid unncessary conflicts. Stay away from talking about one's faith, and stay away from making enemies! Voila, everybody's happy! Ehh, not really...


When I read this after my first post of this thread, I immediately thought of your situation you had with your father. I believe it pertains greatly to it.

Edited by luv2increase, 23 December 2007 - 01:35 AM.


#5

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 02:05 AM

The reason why people think that faith deserves respect, is because faith is the most/ one of the most important things in a believer's life. Therefore, if you bash on it, you are most likely to create a great conflict with the faith's practitioner. Generally, it's in our genes and our education to avoid unncessary conflicts. Stay away from talking about one's faith, and stay away from making enemies! Voila, everybody's happy! Ehh, not really...


When I read this after my first post of this thread, I immediately thought of your situation you had with your father. I believe it pertains greatly to it.


It doesn't. I didn't share all of the circumstances such that my dad was up and around and relating and not really on his death bed yet. I do believe that I shared enough to not come to the presumptuous and callous remarks you have made. I suggest rather than seeking to demonize you attempt to help me find clarity. What about the two different kinds of faith? Is it painful for you to consider epistemic relativism as too common? Do you find that some professing of religion is not a seeking of greater understanding but forceful coercion? As far as I can tell, it was this false idea of religion that lead to my dad's death, something that was forced on him when he was weak and frail. Through it he found death to be acceptable and stopped watching what he was consuming with a healthy dose of skepticism, he was propagandized to death!

I find forums problematic and often giving voice to the most inconsiderate, callous and unthinking.

#6 luv2increase

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 02:18 AM

inconsiderate, callous and unthinking.



That is how you were questioning your dad's faith, resulting in a possible dampening of his spirits and hope which probably ultimately led to his death.

Trying to coerce your father into unbelief in his personal peace aka belief aka faith, was completely unnecessary. I can't see how you would believe any good would have come out of that??? It boggles my mind.

Edited by luv2increase, 23 December 2007 - 02:20 AM.


#7

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 02:46 AM

Looks like what boggles your mind is seeking clarity which is probably why you must obfuscate, denigrate and avoid consideration of the topic of this thread in favor of seeking to demonize.

#8 Athanasios

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 03:06 AM

I personally think that religion naturally arises from the internal monologue that humans have developed. It can easily become a separation from reality due to fear and seeking for stimulus. In order to maintain this separation one must reinforce it over and over. These create the belief systems that are entangled with personal identity in which people will fight to the death for. By having this belief system that separates them from others people long for more intimate contact and try to recruit others. The recruiting can become hateful as refusal to join can mean rejection of the others identity. I dont think this scenario is exclusive to religion but think this is how religion arises in our consciousness.

Is it coercion? It can be but not must be.

Edited by cnorwood, 23 December 2007 - 03:20 AM.


#9 Kalepha

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 03:12 AM

One of the fundamental problems that doesn't appear addressed here, Chip, is the problem of who or what gets to determine what the problems are. If x gets to determine what the problems are, who or what gets to determine that x gets to determine what the problems are? . . . As for the particular problems here, I got to determine them, and it didn't require the approval of anyone for me to have them. But then again, these are mainly rhetorical since I'm not really calling to arms. . . .

Another one. Epistemological skepticism is a deeper problem than epistemological relativism. What are the necessary and sufficient conditions that ensure a mind-world binding? If y, what are the necessary and sufficient conditions that ensure the mind-y binding? An internalistic epistemology looks like a more promising pathway than an externalistic epistemology, which, as it seems, would offend you.

Last one coming to mind. It can be simply illustrated by the fact that I can't teach a newborn how to swing herself on the swing. Knowledge is many times incommensurate between persons. Who or what gets to identify the knowledge-bearer and coerce her into confinement until everyone else gets it? Or, if a subset of knowledge consists in observable moving parts, who or what needs to force their way into being a copy of every other knowledge-bearer?

So, even before we had to be particular about religion, who or what needs to do all the coercing your solution needs to minimize how much you're offended by coercion? . . .

I'm sorry about your father.

#10

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 07:38 AM

Cnorwood, at times I have thought of or glimpsed a purely cybernetic approach to psychology. One important recognition of the human information handling system is how internal dialogue/monologue can serve to cloud thought rather than facilitate perception. When I was about 16 I abruptly came to notice my internal dialogue/monologue and how it was both unnecessary and distracting very often. From then I developed some techniques in an attempt to still the "inner voice" and for some periods of time during my life, felt quite tuned and handled great amounts of information for collation and synthesis. I have been what I have come to term a spontaneous conceptualizer. I know we can think in pictures, movies, colors, smells, textures and sounds. I try to avoid talking to myself.

So, this forcing of wills, this coercion that takes place some times, for sure, is based more on repeated words than deep or maybe, comprehensive thought? The forcing is done sometimes via repitition of certain opinions to the exclusion of alternative considerations?

So, a synthesis that seems to present itself is another project I've had on the back burner for a long time. I have long felt it should be possible to make representations of various human conditions that are not based in language. E.g. using solely video animation one should be able to show and explain ecological trophic states or the concentration of pollutants through the food chain and web. Thinking of it, the data from the recent research into the Y chromosome and mapping its variation through the population to illuminate the paths that humanity used to spread onto the planet would make for a nice little animation especially if it would be possible to represent the numbers of people involved and the number of generations. Overlaying it onto a graphic of the earth would also be neat. Exploration of my social theory has also involved drawing up vector representations of past social relationships that should be capable of presentation via an animation to show how it has changed over time. Ah, one of my lucid moments, vector analysis calls to me. I need to learn more linear algebra and differential equations.

Kalepha, "Epistemological skepticism?" You mean the loss of it? I guess one could say the propaganda caused my dad to lose this, could be a mechanism of this coercion. Perhaps that equates to a suspension of disbelief? So part of the mechanism of propaganda would be to stop critical thinking? That seems to make sense. As far as I can tell the acceptance of epistemic relativism leads to the belief that unheard criticism means no faults exist, basically "what you don't know can't hurt you." Maybe the loss of epistemic skepticism is an antecedent. That would recognize the drug induced stupor my dad was in when convinced to accept Christianity as an important factor, yes. Something very similar happened to my sister that lead to her basically giving up on her critical thinking and accepting Christianity. We used to be so close and she such a fine light. Her going over to the dark side, so-to-speak, has meant loss of a kindred spirit in my life.

Food for thought, thanks to both of you. Hope this leads to a viable strategy to combat this mind destruction that seems to engulf many.

#11 mike250

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 07:55 AM

does your sister still talk to you friendlyai?

#12

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 09:10 AM

I talked with her briefly a couple of months ago but I don't initiate any communications. I think she is relatively dangerous to me. A couple of her close friends consider me the devil incarnate for pointing out near the last presidential election in some group email conversations that Bush appears to be without morals. After locating a doctor who felt my dad could possibly be saved, she basically pulled the plug on that possibility. She was really happy to have my dad lose his critical thinking and apparently would love for me to become brain dead too as far as I can tell.

#13 william7

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 02:10 PM

Due to my being raised in what can be termed a Christian leaning nation, I early on decided I would not read the Bible. ... To this day, I still haven’t read the Bible

If you ever decide to read it through, I recommend you do a Bible study course too. The best Bible study course I know of is free at http://www.gnmagazine.org/bsc/. They don't have perfect knowledge of the Scriptures yet, but they will teach you some important truths that are directly opposite of what the Catholic and Protestant churches teach.

I don't see how you can speak against the Bible if you don't know what's in it.

He adopted Aspartame as his preferred sweetener

Always use raw, pure honey as your sweetner. See http://www.tropicalt...c_raw_honey.htm. It's God's answer to man's sweet tooth. Proverbs 24:13; 25:16.

Donald Rumsfeld was a murderous sociopath

Most of your high level capitalists have no regard for human life. Money and property are more important than life itself. This is a problem that serious immortalists are going to have to fully reverse, and, once reversed, keep in check at all times so it doesn't rear its ugly head again. Only "the emergence of new forms of psychospiritual devotion" (hopefully backed by a strong and merciful AI as well as Jesus Christ Himself) opposed to private property and money and supporting long life and immortality will work to accomplish the task.

I learned of a phenomenon called epistemological relativism or epistemic relativism.

Wikipedia says:

"One school of thought compares scientific knowledge to the mythology of other cultures, arguing that it is merely our society's set of myths based on our society's assumptions."
http://en.wikipedia....tive_relativism

I don't know whether the folks around here are going to want to hear something like this relying heavily on science and technology as they do. But thanks for bringing this out. I might bring this up the next time somebody calls my Bible a myth.

And, you know how badly our culture overly emphasizes highly technical scientific knowledge over moral character and right behavior. The tool itself is more important than the one who handles the tool. This must be reversed too. It's neither logical nor rational.

#14 Kalepha

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 06:14 PM

Kalepha, "Epistemological skepticism?" You mean the loss of it? I guess one could say the propaganda caused my dad to lose this, could be a mechanism of this coercion. Perhaps that equates to a suspension of disbelief? So part of the mechanism of propaganda would be to stop critical thinking? That seems to make sense. As far as I can tell the acceptance of epistemic relativism leads to the belief that unheard criticism means no faults exist, basically "what you don't know can't hurt you." Maybe the loss of epistemic skepticism is an antecedent. That would recognize the drug induced stupor my dad was in when convinced to accept Christianity as an important factor, yes. Something very similar happened to my sister that lead to her basically giving up on her critical thinking and accepting Christianity. We used to be so close and she such a fine light. Her going over to the dark side, so-to-speak, has meant loss of a kindred spirit in my life.

By epistemological skepticism I mean the problem surrounding the notions of evil demons, brains in vats, etc. I don't believe it's exactly synonymous with epistemic skepticism. The latter is more like a state one's in when their framework of epistemological skepticism is highly unresolved, i.e., one's more like a mode, one's more like a model. I wouldn't say that your father had epistemic skepticism, because he doesn't appear to have worked with epistemological skepticism. But I bring it up to help point out that partitioning a psychosocial stratosphere is immensely non-trivial and only less arbitrary when one accepts that offense and conflict are unavoidable (especially since anyone can be "offended" as long as you're not confined or dead), the very thing you probably didn't want to do in the quest through partitioning and setting things right.

Game/decision theory strips much of the grandiosity away in political objectives, so that if grandiosity is necessary for the rhetorical power, it's at least not as blind (even if the grandiosity had to counterfeit the naivety that's usually necessary for diplomacy or rhetoric. . . don't want to offend anyone's grandiosphere).

#15 Kalepha

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 08:01 PM

. . . Partitioning in the sense of clarifying your problem of what needs to be redistributed, not in the sense of enhancing stratification. Since I didn't use 'conceptual partitioning', I can see being misconstrued.




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