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Take or avoid vitamin D supplements?


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#181 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 03:42 PM

Ive Sjogrens yet Im seronegative as are many others.
Hope you dont mind me asking a couple o questions, please can you tell me
Was your mum found to be defficient in D ?
Did she get rid of the AB's by Vit D alone or in combo with AB's

She was deficient in vitamin D -- her starting value was something like 12ng/mL of 25OHD. 5000iu of Vitamin D dropped the Sjogren's antibodies to zero, without any antibiotics. About a year later I finally got her diagnosed with Lyme (she was positive for babesia but seronegative for Lyme through Quest labs, it was a clinical diagnosis) and she is improving on a tiny dose of doxycycline. She could not even handle 100mg of doxy, the herxheimer reactions were so bad, she had 25mg capsules compounded for her. She must be riddled with bacteria at this point, after several years of prednisone was prescribed by her world-renowned rheumatologist for Sjogren's.

We need a major paradigm shift in the treatment of autoimmunity.

#182 youandme

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 10:21 AM

Ive Sjogrens yet Im seronegative as are many others.
Hope you dont mind me asking a couple o questions, please can you tell me
Was your mum found to be defficient in D ?
Did she get rid of the AB's by Vit D alone or in combo with AB's

She was deficient in vitamin D -- her starting value was something like 12ng/mL of 25OHD. 5000iu of Vitamin D dropped the Sjogren's antibodies to zero, without any antibiotics. About a year later I finally got her diagnosed with Lyme (she was positive for babesia but seronegative for Lyme through Quest labs, it was a clinical diagnosis) and she is improving on a tiny dose of doxycycline. She could not even handle 100mg of doxy, the herxheimer reactions were so bad, she had 25mg capsules compounded for her. She must be riddled with bacteria at this point, after several years of prednisone was prescribed by her world-renowned rheumatologist for Sjogren's.

We need a major paradigm shift in the treatment of autoimmunity.


Hey Funk I couldnt agree more with your last comment...I cant believe we are simply treating with Steroids and being happy about it.
Its clear more effort is needed for proper care...youknow more than most how bad it can be with Doctors and so called treatments.

Thanks for the responses..I MUST get my D levels checked full stop..next week see Doc will ask fo r the blood test.
Goodness its so good that you did not follow the Marshall Protocol !

I know I said it last time..though I wish the AB's had done it for me Im at the same time very glad your mum and others will do well on AB's

To everyone, to give an idea of how bad Autoimmunity is..Im currently suffering a new symptom..my right hand is going into spams even as I type this..it started just the other day out of the blue.
My fear is some kind of Nerve destruction, proabably CIDP or ALS both bad ALS worse of course..however CIDP is not to shabby in itself.

I had Camplyobacter Infection 3 years ago..a month later my right thumb would twitch innocently enough (Doc's told me Id be fine) ..but now its twitching and going into spasm..it renders my whole hand useless..and now the spasms are crossing into my left hand...my whole body now twitches

Camplyobacter is known to cause GBS..but most dont know that there is another form of GBS the chronic form whereby it comes on slowly/progressive which is CIDP..(GBS normally remits after one go.
Camplyobacter's DNA has some features that are identical to humans...so Ive deduced the probable cause in my case..as I dont seem to benefit from AB's.

The strange thing is people who have been using statins are starting to suffer similar symptoms like me and CIDP...i came across a forum with people really unhappy that this is happenning...if you ever needed a reason not to take them then perhaps this is it.

What my Doc's will do when I finally get diagnosed if its CIDP will be to put me on Steroids straight away..if that fails IVIG if that fails Plasmaphersis and if that fails Cyclophosphamide and if that fails..goodbye.

BTW
Why cant they quantify/differentiate the DNA from a biopsy..and ask the question from the results is it human or is it Pathogen ?!..surely that would be a way to proving the critters are in you.

Come on you clever Docs out there..we need a better way of Diagnosis and to prove each individuals true problems !

All my best

Edited by youandme, 08 January 2009 - 10:25 AM.


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#183 hope4

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 09:13 PM

Hello, everyone, I'm new here, and I found this forum by googling Vit K2 + Marshall Protocol. I googled that because I had been reading the Marshall site a little over a year ago. I found that site by googling a set of symptoms that I had, and found that a lot of people there had so many of the same symptoms as me. I read a lot and decided to try avoiding sunlight, as that was my main source of Vit D at the time, but I didn't do the meds. After a short period of extreme herxing, I started to feel better, and after about 6 months I no longer needed to wear sunglasses all the time. However, appearancewise, I aged at the speed of light. I knew that my body had some sort of intolerance to Vit D because for the past few years over the winter I would start to feel better, by spring I would feel pretty good, and then by the middle of the summer I would get so tired that when outside in the sun I could hardly walk. Also, I could eat foods containing Vit d without a problem during the winter, but during the summer they would cause severe headaches and fatigue. Because of my experience, I became a big advocate of not taking Vitamin D supplements and believed that Vit D in large doses could be harmful.

Fortunately, someone told me about an article at www.westonaprice.org that made me realize that I was right in a way, but for the wrong reason. In his article about Vit K2, Chris Masterjohn explains that Vitamin D is toxic only when it's taken out of proportion to the amount of Vitamin A and Vitamin K2 in the diet, and was wondering if Marshall had at any point addressed this issue. I haven't found an answer to that question yet, but I am assuming that he would not care to talk about it. When you consider all the issues that Vit K2 is involved with in synergy with Vit A and D, it seems as though Vit K2 along with Vit A would actually solve most of the issues that are talked about at the Marshall site.

I think people who are very deficient in Vit K2 are the ones who will exhibit most quickly the signs of vit d toxicity. Unfortunately, if you are deficient in Vit K2, you then won't be able to reap the benefits of Vit D and Vit A, and you will most likely have multiple health problems.

I also think that the reason that not only some, but a lot, of people actually do get better using the Marshall Protocol is that frequently there is biofilm involved in cases of Vit K2 deficiency, and perhaps once that is dealt with, symptoms subside, albeit only temporarily. At this point, that is just a theory, though. I only started to think about this several days ago, and so many different aspects of this issue are swimming around in my head.

I am now on the Vit D wagon, but I am trying to get my Vit D through good quality foods and whatever sunlight I can get. I try to eat foods high in Vit K2 and Vit A, but I'm not sure yet how to balance them. I do take a Vit K2 supplement because I have had symptoms of it's deficiency since I was a child.


Violet

#184 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 11:01 PM

I have also suspected that the Marshall Protocol, when it does work on people without Sarcoidosis and without obviously dysfunctional Vitamin D metabolism, may be a result of balancing Vitamin D levels with deficient A and K. In this hypothesis, the positive responders had basically normal Vitamin D levels but were suffering from "Vitamin D toxicity" because of relative deficiencies in A & K, and now restricting Vitamin D brings them into balance.

If there is a shred of accuracy to this idea then boy, supplementing with A & K is a whole lot more attractive than restricting D. I support another key aspect of the protocol, broad spectrum intracellular antibiotics, without reservation.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 24 January 2009 - 11:02 PM.


#185 hope4

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 01:29 AM

I finally found the paragraph in Masterjohn's article that made me relate the whole thing to the Marshall Protocol.

Besides balancing out the Vitamin D and making it no longer toxic, Vitamin A has a definite role in the immune system. Vitamin K2 may play an important role in the immune system, too, since the lymph glands and bone marrow accumlate large amounts of it and a vitamin K-dependent protein called gas6 plays a role in phagocytosis, a process wherein immune cells destroy and comsume foreign cells or the body's own cells when they are infected or no longer needed.

This makes me think that balancing out the 3 vitamins may be enough to make the immune system strong enough to deal with the infection. Marshall found that the phagocytes were being invaded by a bacteria that disabled them and also disabled the Vit D receptor, thus leaving the body helpless. I am hoping that the Vitamin K will correct that problem, and my immune system will be able to start dealing with the bacterial issues in my body. We'll see!

Violet

#186 youandme

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 07:52 AM

Hi Violet,
sounds more than interesting...please let us know how you go after a while!.

Personally I think bacteria in one form or another ARE part of the picture to so called Autoimmunity.

It would be nice for the state of imaging to prove the theory...I heard about the new IBM MRI being developed may just help with proving or not this exact thing..

To see the bugs inside a cell once and for all would do it for me and all the Docs who dont believe.

It could be that many ways of triggering so called Autoimmunity will be identified by this kind of nano sized particle imagers of the future.

In the meantime however I will be getting me some K2 as well...I know Im low end in the normal ref range...and I must get my D levels checked soon.

#187 rwac

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 08:15 AM

Hi Violet,
sounds more than interesting...please let us know how you go after a while!.

Personally I think bacteria in one form or another ARE part of the picture to so called Autoimmunity.

It would be nice for the state of imaging to prove the theory...I heard about the new IBM MRI being developed may just help with proving or not this exact thing..

To see the bugs inside a cell once and for all would do it for me and all the Docs who dont believe.

It could be that many ways of triggering so called Autoimmunity will be identified by this kind of nano sized particle imagers of the future.

In the meantime however I will be getting me some K2 as well...I know Im low end in the normal ref range...and I must get my D levels checked soon.


Another symptom of K2 deficiency will be slow blood clotting.
That will change when you supplement it.

#188 hope4

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 05:57 PM

Another symptom of K2 deficiency will be slow blood clotting.
That will change when you supplement it.



Yes, that's why I originally started taking it. After taking iodine for several weeks, I started to get nosebleeds. The K2 helped very quickly. The K1 form and not the K2 form is supposed to be the form that helps with blood clotting, but the K2 works just fine for that.

Violet

#189 hope4

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 06:48 PM

Hi Violet,
sounds more than interesting...please let us know how you go after a while!.

Personally I think bacteria in one form or another ARE part of the picture to so called Autoimmunity.

It would be nice for the state of imaging to prove the theory...I heard about the new IBM MRI being developed may just help with proving or not this exact thing..

To see the bugs inside a cell once and for all would do it for me and all the Docs who dont believe.

It could be that many ways of triggering so called Autoimmunity will be identified by this kind of nano sized particle imagers of the future.

In the meantime however I will be getting me some K2 as well...I know Im low end in the normal ref range...and I must get my D levels checked soon.


It's good to hear that someone else thinks bacteria are a part of so called autoimmunity. You can't even suggest that to most people. I think there is a test, maybe acid stain or acid fast test, I'll look it up, that can find these so called imaginary bacteria. Alan Cantwell found them in cancer, and someone else found them in sarcoidosis. I suppose that most doctors are trained to not use the tests, and then tell people "We don't know what causes it!"

For now, the only thing K2 seems to be doing is causing me discomfort. I've been having achiness in my joints and tightness in my muscles. Sometimes immediately after taking some I feel as though I'm going to vomit and I get a dull headache at the base of my skull. I have the feeling that you get right before coming down with a flu. I am going to cut back on my dose a little.

If K2 helps rid the body of oxalates, and if biofilm produce oxalates, and if oxalates attract and bond to calcium, maybe the K2 is helping to rid my body of biofilm. That's a lot of if's. I don't know how well logic works when you have that many if's in a statement.

Violet

#190 rwac

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 08:46 PM

Violet,

How much K2 are you taking and what form ?
First couple of times I took 10 mg MK-4, I got a bad headache,
and a feeling very similar to a niacin flush.

#191 hope4

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 10:13 PM

Violet,

How much K2 are you taking and what form ?
First couple of times I took 10 mg MK-4, I got a bad headache,
and a feeling very similar to a niacin flush.



I take 3mg 4 or 5 times a day. Maybe I am getting niacin flush type symptoms, too. I do take niacin, and for a while now I've been getting a flush feeling later on in the day and wondering why it's happenning so far away from taking the niacin. I'll have to pay closer attention to that. I wonder why it would do that.

So your headaches stopped after a while? Do you take all 10 mg at one time?

Violet

#192 rwac

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 12:25 AM

I take 3mg 4 or 5 times a day. Maybe I am getting niacin flush type symptoms, too. I do take niacin, and for a while now I've been getting a flush feeling later on in the day and wondering why it's happenning so far away from taking the niacin. I'll have to pay closer attention to that. I wonder why it would do that.

So your headaches stopped after a while? Do you take all 10 mg at one time?

Violet


My headaches are mostly gone now.

Part of it was possibly due to pressure in my sinus, which has decreased a fair bit, but it hasn't gone away.

I do take 10 mg at once in the morning.

My theory is that K2 is improving blood circulation by reducing calcium deposits in the vascular system.
(MK-4 is known to help with atherosclerosis.)

It's interesting. My flush used to be longer lasting than the niacin flush, too.

#193 hope4

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 01:17 AM

My headaches are mostly gone now.

Part of it was possibly due to pressure in my sinus, which has decreased a fair bit, but it hasn't gone away.

I do take 10 mg at once in the morning.

My theory is that K2 is improving blood circulation by reducing calcium deposits in the vascular system.
(MK-4 is known to help with atherosclerosis.)

It's interesting. My flush used to be longer lasting than the niacin flush, too.



I'm sorry, I forgot to answer the question about what form of K2. I take MK-4. My headaches feel like sinus headaches, too. For some reason, sinus headaches affect the base of my skull, too. As a matter of fact, I've been getting the pressure in the sinus area over and behind my ears that I used to get but haven't had for a long time. I didn't relate that to the K2, and thought that I'm going backwards here! Have you ever heard that sinus issues reflect something going on in the intestines? I just remembered that I told a friend that last week, but didn't apply it to myself.

I do see evidence of increased blood circulation. This is the most amazing vitamin. I wish I would have known about this years ago.

Violet

#194 katzenjammer

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 01:26 AM

My headaches are mostly gone now.

Part of it was possibly due to pressure in my sinus, which has decreased a fair bit, but it hasn't gone away.

I do take 10 mg at once in the morning.

My theory is that K2 is improving blood circulation by reducing calcium deposits in the vascular system.
(MK-4 is known to help with atherosclerosis.)

It's interesting. My flush used to be longer lasting than the niacin flush, too.



I'm sorry, I forgot to answer the question about what form of K2. I take MK-4. My headaches feel like sinus headaches, too. For some reason, sinus headaches affect the base of my skull, too. As a matter of fact, I've been getting the pressure in the sinus area over and behind my ears that I used to get but haven't had for a long time. I didn't relate that to the K2, and thought that I'm going backwards here! Have you ever heard that sinus issues reflect something going on in the intestines? I just remembered that I told a friend that last week, but didn't apply it to myself.

I do see evidence of increased blood circulation. This is the most amazing vitamin. I wish I would have known about this years ago.

Violet


Interesting, ever since I've been taking MK-7 and now MK-7 & MK-4, I've been getting these mysterious headaches at the base of my skull. The only different thing I was doing, as far as I could tell, was the vit k. Perhaps it's indeed the increase in circulation - interesting thought.

#195 pro-d

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 01:40 PM

I have also suspected that the Marshall Protocol, when it does work on people without Sarcoidosis and without obviously dysfunctional Vitamin D metabolism, may be a result of balancing Vitamin D levels with deficient A and K. In this hypothesis, the positive responders had basically normal Vitamin D levels but were suffering from "Vitamin D toxicity" because of relative deficiencies in A & K, and now restricting Vitamin D brings them into balance.

If there is a shred of accuracy to this idea then boy, supplementing with A & K is a whole lot more attractive than restricting D. I support another key aspect of the protocol, broad spectrum intracellular antibiotics, without reservation.


That's plausible as symptoms of hypersensitivity match those of toxicity.

I take neither A or K as I believe my diet is fairly sufficient in these and I've been fine on pure D supplementation (10k a day). So it's possible that an addressing of diet is key.

I haven't undertaken a survey of those on the Marshall Protocol, but looking through their boards the vast majority of avatars were of white faces. And without casting aspersions, the stereotypical white Western (or merely Western in general) diet is severely lacking in vitamin K. A however is not a big concern as it's in a lot of dairy.

#196 VespeneGas

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 06:17 PM

I take neither A or K as I believe my diet is fairly sufficient in these and I've been fine on pure D supplementation (10k a day). So it's possible that an addressing of diet is key.


If you're eating plenty of leafy greens, you're undoubtably getting plenty of vitamin K1. However, K2 isn't found in foods most of us consume regularly (bone marrow, natto, some livers, etc). If you want to avoid hypercalcemia and arterial calcification, I recommend picking up an mk4 or mk7 supplement - they're quite cheap. :)

#197 rwac

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 06:24 AM

I take neither A or K as I believe my diet is fairly sufficient in these and I've been fine on pure D supplementation (10k a day). So it's possible that an addressing of diet is key.


If you're eating plenty of leafy greens, you're undoubtably getting plenty of vitamin K1. However, K2 isn't found in foods most of us consume regularly (bone marrow, natto, some livers, etc). If you want to avoid hypercalcemia and arterial calcification, I recommend picking up an mk4 or mk7 supplement - they're quite cheap. :)


Adding to that, make sure you get vitamin A, and beta-carotene doesn't count.
I believe the efficiency of conversion of beta-carotene to retinol is not very good.

#198 maxwatt

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:25 AM

I take neither A or K as I believe my diet is fairly sufficient in these and I've been fine on pure D supplementation (10k a day). So it's possible that an addressing of diet is key.


If you're eating plenty of leafy greens, you're undoubtably getting plenty of vitamin K1. However, K2 isn't found in foods most of us consume regularly (bone marrow, natto, some livers, etc). If you want to avoid hypercalcemia and arterial calcification, I recommend picking up an mk4 or mk7 supplement - they're quite cheap. :p


Adding to that, make sure you get vitamin A, and beta-carotene doesn't count.
I believe the efficiency of conversion of beta-carotene to retinol is not very good.


Might it also deplete enzymes needed for other things?

WRT K2, I've been told Kale contains some, but haven't been able to confirm this.

I've heard that the original Popeye used to get his strength from carrots, but the Spinach growers outbid the Kale growers, and for $10,000 Popeye switched to spinach.

Edited by maxwatt, 27 January 2009 - 11:28 AM.


#199 Tony Isaacs

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 07:26 PM

I disagree that healthy people will benefit from a 25-D level of 36-40ng/ml.


Quite frankly, when I see someone try to tell us something like the assertion that abundant Vitamin D3 from sunshine (the giver of life for our planet), diet and natural supplements is somehow dangerous and that a man-made drug is superior, I automatically get a whiff of days old fish and want to take a closer look.

A quick Google search shows that you have written quite a few articles touting "Doctor" Marshall Ms. Proal, including the one on your own site which also has a page for the "Marshall Protocol". I also see that you evidently have a video interview with Marshall and have appeared together with him at lectures.

What I do not find is any of your articles telling about some other interesting facts about Marshall - such as him having little or no medical background and instead having one in Electrical Engineering, though he often implies a strong medical background and does not bother to often point out that he can be called "Doctor" by virtue of a PhD in electrical engineering and not through any medical training. Or his creation of his own on-line journal to post his papers in and misquoting other studies to support his plan. And some other rather eyebrow lifting information such as that found here:

http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.me...8/msg01695.html

Pardon me if I stick with sunshine, diet and supplementary D3. In my opinion "Doctor" Marshall has neither the credentials nor the convincing arrgument for me to do otherwise. Maybe it really is suppressing my immune system, but I have not been to a mainstream doctor in 20 years except for one misadventure when I had a brown recluse bite.

Edited by Tony Isaacs, 02 February 2009 - 07:28 PM.


#200 Dmitri

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 06:47 AM

I take neither A or K as I believe my diet is fairly sufficient in these and I've been fine on pure D supplementation (10k a day). So it's possible that an addressing of diet is key.


If you're eating plenty of leafy greens, you're undoubtably getting plenty of vitamin K1. However, K2 isn't found in foods most of us consume regularly (bone marrow, natto, some livers, etc). If you want to avoid hypercalcemia and arterial calcification, I recommend picking up an mk4 or mk7 supplement - they're quite cheap. :)


That seems to be my case, I consume about 148-200 mcg of K1 from my diet (Lettuce, Cabbage, carrot salad) every day. I also have a K2 supplement, but it contains 100 mg of Natto extract so I stopped taking it since I read soy could cause thyroid problems, it also made me feel weird, I felt discomfort around my neck area.

Edited by Dmitri, 03 February 2009 - 06:58 AM.


#201 kismet

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 06:09 PM

The IOM may come to senses after all those years (more information).
"An ad hoc expert committee will undertake a study to assess current relevant data and update as appropriate the Dietary Reference Intakes (DRI) for vitamin D and calcium... The approximate start date for the project is September 29, 2008.
Project Duration: 24 months  
Provide FEEDBACK on this project."
I really think we should provide some feedback in the name of good science (unfortunately we've missed the possibility to comment publicly and if they have an agenda we won't change anything).

Be sure to mention Dr Cannell's criticism, quoted from the vitamin D newsletter as published there http://groups.google...fa0963e5?hl=de#

"Unfortunately, the scientists who have led the vitamin D revolution for the last ten years are all excluded. The debarred include, but are not limited to, Drs. Vieth, Giovannucci, Garland, Hollis, Heaney, Wagner, Norman, Hankinson, Whitting, Hanley, etc.. For example, Dr Hollis actually wrote and received an FDA Investigational New Drug (IND) for vitamin D in 2003 that has allowed both him and many other investigators to perform vitamin D studies with doses well above the current upper limits. Why is he not on the committee? Dr. Vieth has performed many of the recent upper limit pharmacological dosing studies in humans. Why did the IOM exclude Dr. Vieth?... read more"

#202 rwac

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 02:28 AM

I take neither A or K as I believe my diet is fairly sufficient in these and I've been fine on pure D supplementation (10k a day). So it's possible that an addressing of diet is key.


If you're eating plenty of leafy greens, you're undoubtably getting plenty of vitamin K1. However, K2 isn't found in foods most of us consume regularly (bone marrow, natto, some livers, etc). If you want to avoid hypercalcemia and arterial calcification, I recommend picking up an mk4 or mk7 supplement - they're quite cheap. ;o)


That seems to be my case, I consume about 148-200 mcg of K1 from my diet (Lettuce, Cabbage, carrot salad) every day. I also have a K2 supplement, but it contains 100 mg of Natto extract so I stopped taking it since I read soy could cause thyroid problems, it also made me feel weird, I felt discomfort around my neck area.


Dmitri, Why don't you take MK-4, which doesn't have soy ?

#203 nameless

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 04:54 AM

[quote name='rwac' post='300194' date='13-Feb 2009, 10:28 PM'][quote name='Dmitri' post='297617' date='3-Feb 2009, 02:47 AM'][quote name='VespeneGas'

That seems to be my case, I consume about 148-200 mcg of K1 from my diet (Lettuce, Cabbage, carrot salad) every day. I also have a K2 supplement, but it contains 100 mg of Natto extract so I stopped taking it since I read soy could cause thyroid problems, it also made me feel weird, I felt discomfort around my neck area.[/quote]

Dmitri, Why don't you take MK-4, which doesn't have soy ?
[/quote]
I don't want to sound like it's impossible for MK-7 to cause some sort of reaction, but I very highly doubt the amount of soy in a 100mg extract could cause any thyroid issues. The 'discomfort around the neck area' sounds much more like a placebo reaction that anything else. You'd have to eat relatively large doses of soy for a decent period of time, to possibly get some sort of decrease in thyroid hormones... maybe. A goiter just doesn't pop up from swallowing 100mg of a natto extract.

But yeah, MK-4 would be the alternative if you feel so strongly about it.

#204 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 05:03 AM

I don't want to sound like it's impossible for MK-7 to cause some sort of reaction

I'll be the guy to go ahead and say its impossible for the soy content of an MK-7 capsule to cause any thyroid issues.

Someone had to do it. ;o) This recent epidemic of "soyanoia" is getting out of hand.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 14 February 2009 - 05:05 AM.


#205 nameless

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 05:21 AM

I don't want to sound like it's impossible for MK-7 to cause some sort of reaction

I'll be the guy to go ahead and say its impossible for the soy content of an MK-7 capsule to cause any thyroid issues.

Someone had to do it. ;o) This recent epidemic of "soyanoia" is getting out of hand.

Out of curiosity I looked up the isoflavone content of Natto at USDA. 100 grams of natto has approx, on average, 66 mg of isoflavones. So if my calculations are correct, 100mg would have .066 mg of soy isoflavones. And that's assuming it's just a chunk of natto, with full isoflavone content. Being an extract for K2, it may have less, or none, for all we know.

Edited by nameless, 14 February 2009 - 05:35 AM.


#206 kismet

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 09:09 PM

What he's trying to say is, it's a miracle. Maybe it really is, who knows? At least we know that according to Dr. Holick vitamin D deficiency is costing 50-60 billion dollars a year (in the USA).

#207 4eva

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 04:28 AM

I haven't read this whole thread but I tried searching for the VDR polymorphism. I wonder if Marshall's protocol isn't coming to the same conclusion about vitamin D as those who do nutrigentics treatment.

I don't know Marshall's protocol that well but I get the impression that the vitamin D issue is only part of the entire protocol.

Amy Yasko, for one, recommends rosemary and sage for vitamin D transport in those with some form of VDR SNP.

My limited understanding of vitamin D supplements for VDR positive individuals is that vitamin D alone will not make it into the cells (where it is needed) if other augmenting nutrients are not also taken like vitamin K. Carnosic acid, the active ingredient in rosemary, is also recommended as a seperate supplement. Another site mentioned thyme in addition to rosemary and sage.

The VDR SNP seems to be indicated in cases of periodontis, hep B and TB infection. Of course vitamin D plays a role in immune function.

There are three different forms of the VDR SNP and I'm not sure of the different effects each one has. I know that VDR taq is associated with diabetes and perhaps problems with the pancreas.

One thing I read is that those with VDR SNP could show D deficient on a blood test; but after taking vitamin D2 (only) blood levels are unusally high and remain high.

Edited by 4eva, 22 February 2009 - 04:35 AM.


#208 nancyd

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 10:23 PM

A fraction of the population can get an overdose from a few thousand IUs, so get blood tests if you take more than 1000 IU. 1000 IU got me to 45.1 ng/ml.


I was taking 1000 IU for years and finally got a blood test. My number was 4 which basically means D was nonexistent. (Sidenote: I wear sunscreen everyday.) My doctor was so shocked I had to get screened for osteoporosis. Now I take 4,000 IU per day but no longer have insurance, so I haven't been tested in over a year. (However, I was tested a few months after the first test and after increasing dosage. The number rose to 60.)

Edited by nancyd, 22 February 2009 - 10:27 PM.


#209 kilgoretrout

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 07:05 PM

From Linus Pauling Institute's Miscronutrient Informnation Center http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/ is the following article which recommends most everyone take about 2,000 IU of Vitamin D supplements daily, and documents that it is very very low risk, and has a good chance of boosting the immune system and being good in a number of ways:


http://lpi.oregonsta...amins/vitaminD/

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#210 nancyd

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 02:29 AM

I take neither A or K as I believe my diet is fairly sufficient in these and I've been fine on pure D supplementation (10k a day). So it's possible that an addressing of diet is key.


If you're eating plenty of leafy greens, you're undoubtably getting plenty of vitamin K1. However, K2 isn't found in foods most of us consume regularly (bone marrow, natto, some livers, etc).


I was doing research to decide if I should take vitamin K2 and found that K2 is synthesized from Vitamin K1 by the bacteria that line the gastrointestinal tract. So I wonder if it's enough to just eat foods with vitamin K1 and take probiotics?




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