23 replies to this topic

[bugmenot.com]

This venerable water will prove its worth yet.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17159237

[tintinet]

This venerable water will prove its worth yet.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17159237

How does one get it inexpensively?

[caston]

Genius! We spend some much time/effort on what we eat but barely even think about what we drink.. yet it may be easier to make a real difference to life extension by changing our drinking habbits

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9169001

I have no connection to this company but I'm interested in hearing if these products have value for life extension purposes:

http://www.wellness....45/Default.aspx

Edited by caston, 07 February 2008 - 05:17 PM.

[edward]

So those people I thought were nuts with the whole ph eating, drinking alkalized water, dropping drops of sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide in their water to raise the ph... were not crazy? I think Ray Kurzweil drinks alkalized water... I'm still skeptical. I think there is more going on than mere ph

[krillin]

Those were in vitro studies. How do we go about defeating our physiological pH controls?

[edward]

Those were in vitro studies. How do we go about defeating our physiological pH controls?

Good point, where is my brain today... we can't defeat them (and we wouldn't want to or we would die). Blood will remain at a ph of around 7.4 and any deviations will be buffered (carbonic acid/ bicarbonate buffer system etc.) or we will have serious health problems.

[kenj]

If I've gradually geared my body into slightly 'alkaline mode' over the last few years I'm happy, - well, I feel 10/10 better than ever, although I should try a trip of pots of coffee and McCrap for a few weeks, to note the difference. ;-)

What do you think about Daniel Reid's view?

[edward]

If I've gradually geared my body into slightly 'alkaline mode' over the last few years I'm happy, - well, I feel 10/10 better than ever, although I should try a trip of pots of coffee and McCrap for a few weeks, to note the difference. ;-)

What do you think about Daniel Reid's view?

This thread discusses eating for ph

http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry210805

healthnutty has a good comment that I think sums things up:

The PH diet is funny. Replace ACIDIC with UNHEALTHY and ALKALINE with HEALTHY and it is actually not far off

From what I have learned each body system has an opitmal ph and only in severe pathological conditions does this ph differ from the normal range, and in these cases it is because of the breakdown of some biologic system (chemical buffers, respiratory compensation etc.) combined with some other stressor and not anything we ingest or anything we do.

The things that Daniel Reid guy is talking about, meditation, breathing, proper nutrition etc. are obviously good for you but I dont think it's the ph thats doing it.

The problem with modifications of any kind is that many of them work not because of the premise that the intervention was made under but because of something else. For instance my opinion is that diets work because when one goes on a diet one restricts calories below the level of output and thus the balance is made up by stored energy. You can go on the Big Mac and Lucky Charms diet and lose weight if you eat less than you burn. (its not the fact that Big Macs and Lucky Charms diet works, its that total calories in is less than total calories out). The point is that adopting any sort of modification from whatever "guru" "doctor" or whoever that has some positive benefits will yield positive results. So if adopting a habit of eating high ph foods gets you to eat better or eat less then you might feel better and be healthier but its not the ph. Getting you to practice meditation, breathing exercises etc. may also make you healthier but to pin down why is very slippery.

[stephen_b]

Here's an in vivo study of 43 people: "Electrolyzed-reduced water reduced hemodialysis-induced erythrocyte impairment in end-stage renal disease patients" (PMID 16760903).

Six-month ERW [Electrolyzed-reduced water] treatment increased hematocrit and attenuated proinflammatory cytokines profile in the HD patients. In conclusion, ERW treatment administration is effective in palliating HD-evoked oxidative stress, as indicated by lipid peroxidation, hemolysis, and overexpression of proinflammatory cytokines in HD [hemodialysis]patients.

I've been drinking the stuff for a couple of years now. The best time to take it is between meals, as the quantity of acid in your stomach during digestion will overwhelm the buffering capacity of the water.

Does it work? I don't know, but I'm not discounting the possibility either, and no, I don't care if you also have a bridge you'd like to sell me. It does remove much if not most of the fluoride in tap water, although it varies with the starting tap water chemistry, so the manufacturer doesn't make any specific claims about its fluoride removing performance; that may be another reason for some to try it. My unit has three separate UV stages and an activated carbon filter. Yes, it is a costly machine, but it will provide years of service.

Stephen

[edward]

I guess if I had one of those machines I would probably drink a lot more water than I do (which would probably be good, the more the better up until a point), and my water would probably be even cleaner than it is right now with a 3 stage Brita filter (that annoyingly advertises, and probably does, "leaves behind beneficial fluoride", beneficial my AS$ ahem.. pineal gland). I guess also if I had a cut/laceration flushing it with that water daily might aid in the healing process?

[s123]

If you electrolyze water you will get a decomposition to oxygen and hydrogen. What happens with this oxyhydrogen gas? Aren't you afraid of the formation of hypochlorous, chlorous and chloric salts?

Hypochlourous acid reacts slowly with DNA and RNA as well as all nucleotides in vitro.[7][27] GMP is the most reactive because HOCl reacts with both the heterocyclic NH group and the amino group. Similarly TMP with only a heterocyclic NH group that is reactive with HOCl is the second most reactive. AMP and CMP which only have a slowly reactive amino group are less reactive with HOCl.[27] UMP has been reported to be reactive only at a very slow rate.[6][7] The heterocyclic NH groups are more reactive than amino groups and their secondary chloramines are able to donate the chlorine.[9] These reactions likely interfere with DNA base pairing and consistent with this, Prütz[27] has reported a decrease in viscosity of DNA exposed to HOCl similar to that seen with heat denaturation. The sugar moieties are unreactive and the DNA backbone is not broken.[27] NADH can react with chlorinated TMP and UMP as well as HOCl. This reaction can regenerate UMP and TMP and results in the 5-hydroxy derivative of NADH. The reaction with TMP or UMP is slowly reversible to regenerate HOCl. A second slower reaction that results in cleavage of the pyridine ring occurs when excess HOCl is present. NAD+ is inert to HOCl.[27][9]

Doesn't see healthy to me.

Edited by s123, 08 February 2008 - 03:46 AM.

[niner]

What the hell is in electrolyzed-reduced and alkalized water, anyway? Are they even related?

[s123]

What the hell is in electrolyzed-reduced and alkalized water, anyway? Are they even related?

Electrolyzed–Reduced water is making water alkaline by using electric current.

[niner]

What the hell is in electrolyzed-reduced and alkalized water, anyway? Are they even related?

If I may answer my own question...

Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 1997 May 8;234(1):269-74.
Electrolyzed-reduced water scavenges active oxygen species and protects DNA from oxidative damage.Shirahata S, Kabayama S, Nakano M, Miura T, Kusumoto K, Gotoh M, Hayashi H, Otsubo K, Morisawa S, Katakura Y.
Institute of Cellular Regulation Technology, Graduate School of Genetic Resources Technology, Kyushu University, Fukuoka, Japan. sirahata@grt.kyushu-u.ac.jp

Active oxygen species or free radicals are considered to cause extensive oxidative damage to biological macromolecules, which brings about a variety of diseases as well as aging. The ideal scavenger for active oxygen should be 'active hydrogen'. 'Active hydrogen' can be produced in reduced water near the cathode during electrolysis of water. Reduced water exhibits high pH, low dissolved oxygen (DO), extremely high dissolved molecular hydrogen (DH), and extremely negative redox potential (RP) values. Strongly electrolyzed-reduced water, as well as ascorbic acid, (+)-catechin and tannic acid, completely scavenged O.-2 produced by the hypoxanthine-xanthine oxidase (HX-XOD) system in sodium phosphate buffer (pH 7.0). The superoxide dismutase (SOD)-like activity of reduced water is stable at 4 degrees C for over a month and was not lost even after neutralization, repeated freezing and melting, deflation with sonication, vigorous mixing, boiling, repeated filtration, or closed autoclaving, but was lost by opened autoclaving or by closed autoclaving in the presence of tungsten trioxide which efficiently adsorbs active atomic hydrogen. Water bubbled with hydrogen gas exhibited low DO, extremely high DH and extremely low RP values, as does reduced water, but it has no SOD-like activity. These results suggest that the SOD-like activity of reduced water is not due to the dissolved molecular hydrogen but due to the dissolved atomic hydrogen (active hydrogen). Although SOD accumulated H2O2 when added to the HX-XOD system, reduced water decreased the amount of H2O2 produced by XOD. Reduced water, as well as catalase and ascorbic acid, could directly scavenge H2O2. Reduce water suppresses single-strand breakage of DNA b active oxygen species produced by the Cu(II)-catalyzed oxidation of ascorbic acid in a dose-dependent manner, suggesting that reduced water can scavenge not only O2.- and H2O2, but also 1O2 and .OH.

PMID: 9169001

Atomic hydrogen. A hydrogen radical... Would this form a hydronium radical? H3O.+ ?? Curious. Where would the high pH come from? Unexpected species breaking the assumptions behind pH electrodes? At any rate, this is not just water with a litle NaOH in it. Maybe this is not as quackish as I thought. Caston posted a link to this above, but I didn't notice til after I got this, as I don't usually follow unexplained links.

[s123]

Atomic hydrogen. A hydrogen radical... Would this form a hydronium radical? H3O.+ ?? Curious. Where would the high pH come from? Unexpected species breaking the assumptions behind pH electrodes?

I don't think that H3O.+ exists. The H3O+ complex is formed by a Lewis acid-base reaction. I don't see how a radical could do something similar.

[niner]

Atomic hydrogen. A hydrogen radical... Would this form a hydronium radical? H3O.+ ?? Curious. Where would the high pH come from? Unexpected species breaking the assumptions behind pH electrodes?

I don't think that H3O.+ exists. The H3O+ complex is formed by a Lewis acid-base reaction. I don't see how a radical could do something similar.

You're probably right. I was just wildly speculating about the nature of the solvation of atomic hydrogen. I've never looked at the electrolysis of water, aside from doing it with a battery when I was a kid. I'd guess the vast majority of the H. would recombine to form H2, but some is bound to get lost. There would be so much water around that the most likely collision would be with H2O, and you might get some recombination to H3O., not H3O.+ (oops!) Maybe there is some ultimate reaction that generates hydroxyl ions. It's easy enough to see how that could happen in such a soup.

[krillin]

What the hell is in electrolyzed-reduced and alkalized water, anyway? Are they even related?

There's a good diagram here.

At one electrode you get 2 H2O + 2 e- -> H2 + 2 OH-
At the other electrode you get 2 Cl- -> 2 e- + Cl2

If both electrodes are in the same jar, you get bleach, as noted by S123. If the electrodes are in separate jars connected by a salt bridge, you get molecular hydrogen and sodium hydroxide in one and chlorine gas in the other.

If you have calcium carbonate instead of salt, I think you'd get calcium hydroxide instead of sodium hydroxide, which would then turn into calcium carbonate as CO2 is absorbed from the atmosphere. You'd have to drink it before the carbonate forms in order for it to be alkaline. In the other jar you'd get CO2 and O2 instead of chlorine gas.

I cringed when I read "dissolved atomic hydrogen" in that abstract. Hydrogen atoms are highly reactive. They can exist in a flame or inside metals like palladium, but not in a room temperature solution. They'd either recombine to form inert molecular hydrogen or react with any organic material present.

[niner]

What the hell is in electrolyzed-reduced and alkalized water, anyway? Are they even related?

There's a good diagram here.

At one electrode you get 2 H2O + 2 e- -> H2 + 2 OH-
At the other electrode you get 2 Cl- -> 2 e- + Cl2

If both electrodes are in the same jar, you get bleach, as noted by S123. If the electrodes are in separate jars connected by a salt bridge, you get molecular hydrogen and sodium hydroxide in one and chlorine gas in the other.

If you have calcium carbonate instead of salt, I think you'd get calcium hydroxide instead of sodium hydroxide, which would then turn into calcium carbonate as CO2 is absorbed from the atmosphere. You'd have to drink it before the carbonate forms in order for it to be alkaline. In the other jar you'd get CO2 and O2 instead of chlorine gas.

I cringed when I read "dissolved atomic hydrogen" in that abstract. Hydrogen atoms are highly reactive. They can exist in a flame or inside metals like palladium, but not in a room temperature solution. They'd either recombine to form inert molecular hydrogen or react with any organic material present.

But if there's no chloride, then you wouldn't get any bleach. The current carrier could be a little sulfuric acid, for example. Or sodium sulfate. I agree that most of the electrolysis would be conventional, forming H2 and O2, and most of whatever atomic H that was formed would probably recombine, but what becomes of the rest? I would expect that atomic hydrogen has some level of solubility in water; it can't be zero. There may well be radical species formed that have some level of enhanced stability relative to the free atom. Shirahata et al. find that it scavenges superoxide; no telling who reviewed the paper but Biochem Biophys Res Comm isn't a flaky journal. And that's a pretty easy experiment to run so if it was complete crap, you'd think someone would have said so by now. Someone somewhere must have done the experiments needed to characterize the radical species present after electrolysis of water, but I don't think that medline covers J Chem Phys, so you probably wouldn't find it there. I must say, this stuff attracts quacks like flies to poop, but while that's a red flag, it doesn't mean that it's wrong.

[Hedgehog]

Reduced water exhibits high pH, low dissolved oxygen (DO), high dissolved hydrogen (DH) and significant negative redox potential (RP) values.

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[stephen_b]

I've had better luck finding studies referencing "electrolyzed reduced water" on PubMed than alkaline water, which makes sense since the alkalinity of the water is not most at issue here. Here are a few:

Anti-diabetic effects of electrolyzed reduced water in streptozotocin-induced and genetic diabetic mice. (PMID 16945392)

Oxidative stress is produced under diabetic conditions and is likely involved in progression of pancreatic beta-cell dysfunction found in diabetes. Both an increase in reactive oxygen free radical species (ROS) and a decrease in the antioxidant defense mechanism lead to the increase in oxidative stress in diabetes. Electrolyzed reduced water (ERW) with ROS scavenging ability may have a potential effect on diabetic animals, a model for high oxidative stress. Therefore, the present study examined the possible anti-diabetic effect of ERW in two different diabetic animal models. The genetically diabetic mouse strain C57BL/6J-db/db (db/db) and streptozotocin (STZ)-induced diabetic mouse were used as insulin deficient type 1 and insulin resistant type 2 animal model, respectively. ERW, provided as a drinking water, significantly reduced the blood glucose concentration and improved glucose tolerance in both animal models. However, ERW fail to affect blood insulin levels in STZ-diabetic mice whereas blood insulin level was markedly increased in genetically diabetic db/db mice. This improved blood glucose control could result from enhanced insulin sensitivity, as well as increased insulin release. The present data suggest that ERW may function as an orally effective anti-diabetic agent and merit further studies on its precise mechanism.

Here's a previous study in diabetic mice by some of the same authors.

Oxidative stress is produced under diabetic conditions and involved in progression of pancreatic beta-cell dysfunction. Both an increase in reactive oxygen free radical species (ROS) and a decrease in the antioxidant defense mechanism lead to the increase in oxidative stress in diabetes. Electrolyzed reduced water (ERW) with ROS scavenging ability may have a potential effect on diabetic animals, a model for high oxidative stress. Therefore, the present study examined the possible anti-diabetic effect of ERW in genetically diabetic mouse strain C57BL/6J-db/db (db/db). ERW with ROS scavenging ability reduced the blood glucose concentration, increased blood insulin level, improved glucose tolerance and preserved beta-cell mass in db/db mice. The present data suggest that ERW may protects beta-cell damage and would be useful for antidiabetic agent.

Here's an in vitro study that's a bit over my head. I think the main point is that it reduced ROS produced by the cancer cells. Inhibitory effect of electrolyzed reduced water on tumor angiogenesis. (PMID 18175936)

Electrolyzed reduced water (ERW) produced near the cathode during the electrolysis of water scavenged intracellular H(2)O(2) and decreased the release of H(2)O(2) from a human lung adenocarcinoma cell line, A549, and down-regulated both VEGF transcription and protein secretion in a time-dependent manner.

Stephen

[Logic]

A very old thread, but worth reviving I think.

Here is a page with lots of studies listed:
http://heartspring.n...al_studies.html

Then ther is this..!
http://blog.watershe...ffers-no-proof/

Is anybody still using this stuff? Effects?

[Richy Baker]

Anyone know of a decent ionizer to buy or direct to a thread about this?

[Kevnzworld]

Drinking a naturally alkaline water like Fiji (8ph) has to be a lot more healthy than drinking purified water that is stripped of all of the trace minerals. I am wary of those annoying MLM sales people that push that expensive Kangen machine though.
I think it's also critical to avoid sugars, and acidic soft drinks. I believe in eating greens, and juicing to help alkalize the body including popping some capsules of Barleans greens at lunch!
Cancer, fungus and candida thrive in an acidic environment.

[Logic]

I am almost certain that an ionizer will have no effect on pure/distilled/de-ionised water: you need to have minerals etc to make the water conductive to electricity.

The question is what chemical reactions happen in the electrolysed water.
I think abig part of it is that a lot of H2 coming off the cathode dissoloves in the water and that this hydrogen reacts with oxidents in the body to form pure and usefull water, rather than other nasty stuff.

But one has to look all the reactions:

Everything + will be attracted to the - electrode.
Everything - will be attracted to the + electrode.

At the - electrode you have OH- being repelled away from the electrode at immense speed; reacting to all the + stuff being attracted to it.
At the + electrode you have H+ being repelled away from the electrode at 'immense-er' speed; reacting to all the - stuff being attracted to it.

Now OH- plus H+ just equals H2O so the question becomes: What minerals (dissolved) and etc are attracted to each electrode?
What do you get when OH- and H+ react with them?
Once reacted the + stuff attracted to the - electrode should become neutral and thus no longer attracted or repelled and thus stick around the general area right?

There is some talk of good minerals being around the - electrode, which you drink, and bad stuff like Chlorine and Flourides being around the + and thus discarded/filtered out???

Im no chemist and still trying to figure out WTF is going on!???

Some links that may be usefull:
http://www.buzzle.co...line-water.html
http://www.health-sc...om/highorp.html
http://blog.imva.inf...e/alkalinity-ph
http://en.wikipedia....trodeionization

Also; perhaps some of the H coming off the negative electrode reacts with minerls etc close-by before it has a chance to form H2.
Then what do you get?
What happens when a dissolved mineral/ion comes in direct contact with an electrode?

It seems to me that the whole process is very-very complex and depends on what is in the water in the 1st place.