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Cocoa supplements to avoid Phenylethylamine hit?


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#1 dehbleh

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 01:46 AM


I'm 23 and have been adding two tablespoons of raw organic cocoa to my breaky cereal every morning for a number of months. It produces a nice, mild kick start to my day.

Recently I've started taking 1.25mg of Selegiline twice a week and I'm gradually beginning to notice some of it's touted effects. For me, the most noticeable change has been an increase in motivation. Secondary to this are improvements in mood, concentration, libido, energy and overall "zest". Yes, I will admit the stuff does make one slightly more aggressive but it's definitely a fair trade-off :)

The Problem:
I still want to have cocoa in my diet but am finding raw cocoa now makes me extremely stimulated, to the point where it's uncomfortable. Think mild to medium ataxia and you'll know what I mean. Green tea is fine, so is coffee but raw cocoa is now out of the question, thus I doubt it's caffeine related but instead the Phenylethylamine content (of which cocoa is know for).

Would supplementation be the best way to obtain cocoa's polyphenols without the Phenylethylamine?

#2 StrangeAeons

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 03:51 AM

PEA is degraded by MAO-B; Deprenyl is an MAO-B Inhibitor. I don't have any other suggestions, but I'm just pointing this out to validate your theory.
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#3 kclo4x

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 04:27 AM

Well, phenylethylamine from the chacolate is in very low doses, and i don't think it ever passes the blood brain barriar, because even when pure phenylethylamine is taken, it doesnt have any psychoactive effects. If it is in chacolate, it would probably take longer to get absorbed. Could it be the caffiene instead perhaps?

#4 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 12:56 PM

Well, phenylethylamine from the chacolate is in very low doses, and i don't think it ever passes the blood brain barriar, because even when pure phenylethylamine is taken, it doesnt have any psychoactive effects. If it is in chacolate, it would probably take longer to get absorbed. Could it be the caffiene instead perhaps?


PEA does pass the blood-brain barrier -- the reason it does not usually make it that far is because it is metabolized by MAO-B which deprenyl inhibits. People take large doses of PEA with deprenyl to achieve a brief, euphoric high, with the dose limited by uncomfortable stimulant-esque side effects (racing, pounding heartbeat, high BP, etc). It is quite possible that the OP's issue is caused by the PEA and deprenyl interaction.

#5 dehbleh

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 11:39 PM

My question remains :)

Do cocoa supplements such as CocoaGold contain PEA? If so, how much?

Right now, I'm highly convinced that the uncomfortable side effects were caused by Phenylethylamine interaction as I'm eating a fair amount of cocoa in my diet. Probably upwards of 20g in my breakfast cereal alone and this was easily tolerable before starting Deprenyl.

#6 edward

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 05:33 PM

I agree with you there is definitely an interaction, whether it is PEA, some other amine or a combination of caffeine, theobromine etc. etc. (there are alot of actives in cocoa) or the resulting increase in norepineprine and dopamine that then is not broken down by MAO B whatever, there is definitely an interaction.

I have always noticed that while on deprenyl that large doses of cocoa are unpleasant, so I try to keep my dosage of cocoa or cocoa containing compounds low. I suggest taking your blood pressure a few times throughout the day on a day when taking NO COCOA. Then taking it throughout the day when taking cocoa and compare. Find the dose of cocoa that does not jack up your blood pressure and then stick with it... or....
discontinue the cocoa or deprenyl :(

#7 shamus

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 10:50 AM

I would look into how much PEA chocolate has. Unlikely there's enough to count (though I'd probably say that about your deprenyl dosing too).

#8

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 06:14 PM

I think you need to be careful with any food or supplement containing PEA and deprenyl. I found that combo caused me a serious adrenaline rush. Even after I stopped taking Deprenyl for about a month or so I would still get that heart racing effect with PEA supplement (from Unique Nutrition). Deprenyl works on the substrate PEA, so you can increase your PEA levels very quickly with a combo of deprenyl and some PEA source.

My neurotransmitter levels were high when they were tested a while ago. But PEA was surprisingly high.

#9 tomnook

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 06:52 PM

I read that the half-life of Deprenyl in the brain is around 20 days so it's a lengthy business to assess the difference it makes when experiencing problems which may be attributed to it since the dose has a cumulative effect.

I was taking 5mg two or three times a week (Male age 54) and found my BP during the day had risen to around 140/85 and now, a month or six weeks later, it's around 120/75. I was also taking 2.25mg Hydergine each day and stopped that at the same time. I seem to recall that I may have been supplementing with CocoaGold as well and, again, have ceased that. (although I still have 10gm of 63% dark chocolate!) I realise that this doesn't add much to the thread, however, I believe that one or other of these made a significant contribution to my pre-hypertension and possibly also caused some ectopic beats when I had an ECG recently. I seemed to also increasingly suffer from palpitations and an adrenaline rush which I reduced significantly with a theanine combination supplement.

#10 NeuronalPercept

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 09:13 AM

I read that the half-life of Deprenyl in the brain is around 20 days so it's a lengthy business to assess the difference it makes when experiencing problems which may be attributed to it since the dose has a cumulative effect.

I was taking 5mg two or three times a week (Male age 54) and found my BP during the day had risen to around 140/85 and now, a month or six weeks later, it's around 120/75. I was also taking 2.25mg Hydergine each day and stopped that at the same time. I seem to recall that I may have been supplementing with CocoaGold as well and, again, have ceased that. (although I still have 10gm of 63% dark chocolate!) I realise that this doesn't add much to the thread, however, I believe that one or other of these made a significant contribution to my pre-hypertension and possibly also caused some ectopic beats when I had an ECG recently. I seemed to also increasingly suffer from palpitations and an adrenaline rush which I reduced significantly with a theanine combination supplement.



You heard wrong.

Plasma half-life Subjets/remarks References 72.0+/-33.3 min 6H 10mg tabs. Mahmood I & al, 1996 70.4+/-6.1 min 6H 10mg sol. +/-39h nH oral dose Bretton & al, 1982 21.56+/-10.4 h demethylselegiline - 6H Rohatagi SR et al, 1997

#11 tomnook

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 01:33 PM

As I said, I was referring to half-life within the brain with respect to MAO-B inhibition - here are some relevant references :

"The recovery of MAO after inhibition depends on the organ and species in question. In rat brain the half-life of recovery in the brain is approximately 8 to 12 days" http://tiny.cc/E6Jx8 and also http://tiny.cc/I5xri

"The half-life in human brain is likely to be longer. Studies using positron emission tomography (PET) and radiolabeled deprenyl estimated the half-life of MAO-B in human brain at 40 days" http://tiny.cc/0tNRI

"In studies on animals, after administration of sufficient unlabeled L-deprenyl to totally block MAO-B site occupancy, analysis of serial 11C-L-deprenyl scans showed a half-life of 6.5 d for recovery of MAO-B in the pig brain (6) and 30 d in the baboon brain (7). Similar studies (8) on humans (PD patients and healthy volunteers) indicated a half-life of 40 d. Because L-deprenyl is an irreversible MAO-B inhibitor, recovery after withdrawal of medication indicates de novo synthesis of MAO-B. " http://tiny.cc/iiazQ

"Slow recovery of human brain MAO B after L-deprenyl (selegeline) withdrawal

SYNAPSE (USA), 1994, 18/2 (86-93)

L-Deprenyl (Selegeline) is an enzyme-activated irreversible inhibitor of monoamine oxidase B (MAO B; EC 1.4.3.4). It is used to treat Parkinson's disease at a dose of 5 mg twice a day. Since enzyme inhibition is irreversible, the recovery of functional enzyme activity after withdrawal from L-deprenyl requires the synthesis of new enzyme. We have measured a 40 day half-time for brain MAO B synthesis in Parkinson's disease and in normal subjects after withdrawal from L-deprenyl." http://tiny.cc/Xv9t7

"This influx constant was used as a measure of functional enzyme activity for sequential determinations of MAO-B recovery following a single high dose of unlabeled L-deprenyl. The half-life for turnover of MAO-B was thus determined to be 30 days." http://tiny.cc/oYC0x

#12 Spiral Architect

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 11:27 PM

My neurotransmitter levels were high when they were tested a while ago. But PEA was surprisingly high.


What kind of test was it?

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#13

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 04:45 PM

My neurotransmitter levels were high when they were tested a while ago. But PEA was surprisingly high.


What kind of test was it?


I did a urine sample with NeuroScience and they tested about 8 different neurotransmitters like PEA, DA, NE, E, glutamic acid, GABA and serotonin.




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