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Immune System Supplements


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31 replies to this topic

#1 neogenic

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 07:27 PM


I am really interested in supplements that can improve your immune system or even ones that can ramp up endogenous antioxidant activity. I've been looking at Epicor, Immunolin, Colostrum, AHCC/other mushroom extracts, beta-glucan, astragalus, SODzyme, etc.

I am curious to know what your experiences are. Some people on reviews use them in high doses when something arises from a cold to cancer. Some use them in lower doses chronically as preventative measures and often with each, the lack of sickness is referenced. I'd like to know how uses or has used what, how the experience has varied, and what make one better than another, or whether there's potential synergy with some of these compounds.

Some are quite expensive, but in many ways could have far more benefit over standard vitamins, minerals, and herbs especially when one eats clean, lives clean (stress, exercise, meditation, etc), and drinks clean (water)...

So I'd love to delve in to this topic and appreciate the feedback here. Hopefully we all can learn more on this.

#2 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 08:24 PM

Don't forget low dose naltrexone as an immune system booster/regulator. Not to mention its energy and mood boosting properties. I'm not ready to formally introduce it to everyone yet as I am in the very early stages of experimentation but I'll throw the name out there so motivated parties can check it out. It has minor effects like halting progression of MS, putting crohn's disease into remission, etc. IMHO I think it has great potential for prophylactic use.

http://www.lowdosena...dose_naltrexone
http://www.lowdosena.../ldn_trials.htm

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#3 stephen_b

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 08:29 PM

Cat's claw seems to be a good one too. I've been reading about how it helps suppress bacteria counts in Lyme disease.

Stephen

#4 Gerald W. Gaston

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 07:03 PM

Don't forget low dose naltrexone as an immune system booster/regulator. Not to mention its energy and mood boosting properties. I'm not ready to formally introduce it to everyone yet as I am in the very early stages of experimentation but I'll throw the name out there so motivated parties can check it out.


I would be very surprised if folks that frequent these forums haven't heard of LDN yet, since it has been discussed here before (and elsewhere for many, many years). I first heard about it on the HLH forum back in 2005 ('Low Dose Naltrexone' for alopecia, insulin resistance & many theories. mostly LDN)

I came close to buying Revia/Depade over the years but never did. Finally on my last ADC order I did throw in Naltima. But no personal experience with it yet. With my current sleep schedule, probably will be awhile before I get to try it (if I ever do).

So Funk, did you start with 3mg or 4.5mg? Did you make it up yourself, or get a script and get it from the pharmacy?

Also here is a Low Dose Naltrexone Forum... there is also a Yahoo group IIRC.

edit: added link

Edited by frankbuzin, 20 April 2008 - 07:22 PM.


#5 Gerald W. Gaston

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 07:13 PM

Cat's claw seems to be a good one too. I've been reading about how it helps suppress bacteria counts in Lyme disease.


LEF had 350mg AC-11 (CC - std 8% CAE instead POA) on sale for an very low $16.50 but I see it has went back up to double that now.

#6 inawe

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 11:21 PM

Don't forget low dose naltrexone as an immune system booster/regulator. Not to mention its energy and mood boosting properties. I'm not ready to formally introduce it to everyone yet as I am in the very early stages of experimentation but I'll throw the name out there so motivated parties can check it out. It has minor effects like halting progression of MS, putting crohn's disease into remission, etc. IMHO I think it has great potential for prophylactic use.

http://www.lowdosena...dose_naltrexone
http://www.lowdosena.../ldn_trials.htm

Do you know of any negative side effect of LDN?
Thanks

#7 zoolander

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 11:23 PM

frank,

be surprised because I've never heard of low dose naltrexone (LDN). Sounds blood interesting though.

I had a quick search on pubmed for a decent review paper about LDN and the immune system. My immune system is borderline because of my sleep apnea. I wouldn't mind reading a good review paper or research paper on LDN and the immune system.

Funk, have you come across any?

#8 krillin

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 11:48 PM

Do you know of any negative side effect of LDN?
Thanks

Endorphins make allergies worse.

#9 zoolander

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 12:51 AM

therefore if you have allergies reconsider

Otherwise LDN is looking pretty darn interesting

http://en.wikipedia....dose_naltrexone

#10 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 12:24 PM

I made it myself with 50mg Naltima tablets, using a graduated cylinder to mix it with 50ml of distilled water, resulting in 1mg per ml. I also picked up 500 disposable graduated pipettes on ebay to measure doses -- works well. I began at 4.5mg because I'm gungho like that, but I ended up dropping to 1.5mg for a bit because after a few days I had so much energy it was almost uncomfortable, like I was on some kind of stimulant. I'm going to gradually ramp back up to 4.5mg. The only negative side effects noted were sleep disturbances for the first few nights, decreasing in severity each night until I was sleeping perfectly normal again. Bowels were a little loose initially, but this was not entirely unexpected considering the way opiates affect gastrointestinal motility. Also I used to have some kind of persistent, minor rash around one of my eyes -- this flared up worse than usual as I first started LDN and then disappeared completely. Apparently it is typical in many cases for existing symptoms to flare initially before improving.

There is only one published study on LDN so far, although there are several trials underway which you can review at the ldn trials link I posted above.

Am J Gastroenterol. 2007 Apr;102(4):820-8. Epub 2007 Jan 11.
Low-dose naltrexone therapy improves active Crohn's disease.
Smith JP, Stock H, Bingaman S, Mauger D, Rogosnitzky M, Zagon IS.

Department of Medicine, Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine, Hershey, Pennsylvania 17033, USA.

OBJECTIVES: Endogenous opioids and opioid antagonists have been shown to play a role in healing and repair of tissues. In an open-labeled pilot prospective trial, the safety and efficacy of low-dose naltrexone (LDN), an opioid antagonist, were tested in patients with active Crohn's disease. METHODS: Eligible subjects with histologically and endoscopically confirmed active Crohn's disease activity index (CDAI) score of 220-450 were enrolled in a study using 4.5 mg naltrexone/day. Infliximab was not allowed for a minimum of 8 wk prior to study initiation. Other therapy for Crohn's disease that was at a stable dose for 4 wk prior to enrollment was continued at the same doses. Patients completed the inflammatory bowel disease questionnaire (IBDQ) and the short-form (SF-36) quality of life surveys and CDAI scores were assessed pretreatment, every 4 wk on therapy and 4 wk after completion of the study drug. Drug was administered by mouth each evening for a 12-wk period. RESULTS: Seventeen patients with a mean CDAI score of 356 +/- 27 were enrolled. CDAI scores decreased significantly (P= 0.01) with LDN, and remained lower than baseline 4 wk after completing therapy. Eighty-nine percent of patients exhibited a response to therapy and 67% achieved a remission (P < 0.001). Improvement was recorded in both quality of life surveys with LDN compared with baseline. No laboratory abnormalities were noted. The most common side effect was sleep disturbances, occurring in seven patients. CONCLUSIONS: LDN therapy appears effective and safe in subjects with active Crohn's disease. Further studies are needed to explore the use of this compound.


If you want to better understand LDN's impact on the immune system and elsewhere, you can start pubmedding beta-endorphin, because LDN raises beta-endorphin levels 200-300% according to Dr. Bihari (the discoverer of LDN) and that is how it is thought to work.

I should also mention that I experienced dramatic improvements in mood and libido. ;o)

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 21 April 2008 - 12:39 PM.


#11 krillin

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 07:57 PM

I recommend a 100 ml volumetric flask over a graduated cylinder: more accurate and has a stopper. It's also easier to get the tablet dissolved in 100 ml, and at 0.5 mg/ml you can accurately dispense with a graduated cylinder instead of pipettes.

#12 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 08:34 PM

I only measure out the water in the graduated cylinder -- I store the naltrexone solution in a little capped bottle in the fridge. Your approach sounds very workable but don't hate on the pipettes! There's nothing like squirting an utterly noxious/vile tasting chemical solution directly onto your tongue to help you relax before bed. ;o)

#13 neogenic

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 01:51 PM

I only measure out the water in the graduated cylinder -- I store the naltrexone solution in a little capped bottle in the fridge. Your approach sounds very workable but don't hate on the pipettes! There's nothing like squirting an utterly noxious/vile tasting chemical solution directly onto your tongue to help you relax before bed. :)

Funk where did you acquire the high-dose version? IS there any readily available in the low-dose without doing the Mr. Wizard stuff?

Also, on topic, does anyone use Epicor, Immunolin, or AHCC regularly? Any data to report as to overcoming illness or disease through their use?

#14 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 02:27 PM

Most of the Indian pharmacy sites carry Naltima 50mg tablets (google will return many results) and they are dirt cheap, $15 for 10 which will last several months. Its made by Intas Pharmaceuticals, which is a massive global operation offering products to the United States and European markets as well as Latin America, Asia etc. If you have it prescribed by a physician, you can have 1.5, 3.0 or 4.5mg capsules compounded for you by a competent compounding pharmacy. Otherwise playing Mr. Wizard is your only option.

#15 krillin

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 09:44 PM

If you do go the Mr. Wizard route, keep your glassware hidden. It might be illegal to own without a permit in your state.

Texas example

(53) "Chemical laboratory apparatus" means any item of
equipment designed, made, or adapted to manufacture a controlled
substance or a controlled substance analogue, including:
(A) a condenser;
(B) a distilling apparatus;
© a vacuum drier;
(D) a three-neck or distilling flask;
(E) a tableting machine;
(F) an encapsulating machine;
(G) a filter, Buchner, or separatory funnel;
(H) an Erlenmeyer, two-neck, or single-neck flask;
(I) a round-bottom, Florence, thermometer, or filtering flask;
(J) a Soxhlet extractor;
(K) a transformer;
(L) a flask heater;
(M) a heating mantel; or
(N) an adaptor tube.



#16 neogenic

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 01:52 PM

If you do go the Mr. Wizard route, keep your glassware hidden. It might be illegal to own without a permit in your state.

Texas example

(53) "Chemical laboratory apparatus" means any item of
equipment designed, made, or adapted to manufacture a controlled
substance or a controlled substance analogue, including:
(A) a condenser;
(B) a distilling apparatus;
© a vacuum drier;
(D) a three-neck or distilling flask;
(E) a tableting machine;
(F) an encapsulating machine;
(G) a filter, Buchner, or separatory funnel;
(H) an Erlenmeyer, two-neck, or single-neck flask;
(I) a round-bottom, Florence, thermometer, or filtering flask;
(J) a Soxhlet extractor;
(K) a transformer;
(L) a flask heater;
(M) a heating mantel; or
(N) an adaptor tube.

Hmm. That's interesting. I guess its the whole cystal meth/crack thing these days. They're certainly not illegal for doing science class experiments. Where is the best place to order some of those things. I think I am about to get a digital scale that does 1mg accuracy to do custom capsules and drinks...ordering all this will be a bit suspect though if someone does track these things. I might have an unmarked van outside my house for a few weeks.

#17 krillin

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 08:57 PM

Where is the best place to order some of those things.

I like sciencekit.

#18 ortcloud

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 04:54 PM

Hey FunkOdyssey, any idea how much the tablets weigh approx ?


I do have a 2mg scale, I suspect the tablets are heavier than 50mg with filler and binders.
if so they are ie. 500mg my 2mg scale should give me a .2mg accuracy.

#19 senseix

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 05:33 PM

Hey FunkOdyssey, any idea how much the tablets weigh approx ?


I do have a 2mg scale, I suspect the tablets are heavier than 50mg with filler and binders.
if so they are ie. 500mg my 2mg scale should give me a .2mg accuracy.



50mg ReVia Tablet actually weighs about 310mg - 16% Naltrexone and 84% Filler.19mg of the Powder actually contains 3mg of the chemical Naltrexone and 28mg of the Powder contains 4.5mg of Naltrexone

#20 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 08:45 PM

ortcloud: That could work if the naltrexone is distributed evenly throughout the tablet. I don't know if I would be comfortable making that assumption. When compounding pharmacies produce 1.5 - 4.5mg naltrexone capsules for LDN they use pure naltrexone powder (combined with a filler like lactose or cellulose).

#21 ortcloud

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 01:39 AM

ortcloud: That could work if the naltrexone is distributed evenly throughout the tablet. I don't know if I would be comfortable making that assumption. When compounding pharmacies produce 1.5 - 4.5mg naltrexone capsules for LDN they use pure naltrexone powder (combined with a filler like lactose or cellulose).



If it is a tablet, it will be homogenous. If it werent all the tablets would be off and none of them would be 50mg.

thanks for doing the math senseix, sounds like you have done this.

#22 Gerald W. Gaston

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 07:47 AM

If it is a tablet, it will be homogenous. If it werent all the tablets would be off and none of them would be 50mg.

thanks for doing the math senseix, sounds like you have done this.



Tablets are produced from a blend of one or more active ingredients and one or more fillers. Whether a blend is sufficiently homogeneous with an even distribution of active content in each tablet would not be an issue, especially given that most people are crushing the entire pill and not trying to eyeball a split into tiny slivers anyway. I recall reading that USP 24/NF19 Supplement 1 allows for a tablet to be up to "110% of the theoretically calculated weight". Seems like there would be something more restrictive to % active content (guess I should actually look that up). If not, wouldn't that mean that if the calculated weight is 310mg that a tablet could be up to 341mg, which at 16% would give us 54.56mg of naltrexone? A full extra dose of LDN. Which when disolved in 50ml could make you up to .4mg off... and for some LDN is a very tight dosage range for effectiveness. I wouldn't expect to find one of these tablets 31mg on the heavy side though... so probably that's not going to be an issue either. But now we have it disolved in 50ml of distilled water, the question is how evenly is the naltrexone dispersed... Shake well.

Anyway, here is a write up about fillers used with LDN:

http://www.gazorpa.com/LDNFillers.html

Edited by frankbuzin, 29 April 2008 - 08:18 AM.


#23 YBC

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 02:11 PM

FunkOdyssey, are the Naltima tablets easy to dissolve? Does the binders dissolve properly? And also, do you crush the tablets before the soak? Sorry for all the questions, but this topic interests me quite a bit ;)

#24 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 02:25 PM

The binders / fillers do not completely dissolve. They break down into very, very fine particles but are still visible and settle at the bottom. I do swish the solution around vigorously immediately before dosing which results in a cloudy homogenous appearance.

#25 ortcloud

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 03:32 PM

If it is a tablet, it will be homogenous. If it werent all the tablets would be off and none of them would be 50mg.

thanks for doing the math senseix, sounds like you have done this.



Tablets are produced from a blend of one or more active ingredients and one or more fillers. Whether a blend is sufficiently homogeneous with an even distribution of active content in each tablet would not be an issue, especially given that most people are crushing the entire pill and not trying to eyeball a split into tiny slivers anyway. I recall reading that USP 24/NF19 Supplement 1 allows for a tablet to be up to "110% of the theoretically calculated weight". Seems like there would be something more restrictive to % active content (guess I should actually look that up). If not, wouldn't that mean that if the calculated weight is 310mg that a tablet could be up to 341mg, which at 16% would give us 54.56mg of naltrexone? A full extra dose of LDN. Which when disolved in 50ml could make you up to .4mg off... and for some LDN is a very tight dosage range for effectiveness. I wouldn't expect to find one of these tablets 31mg on the heavy side though... so probably that's not going to be an issue either. But now we have it disolved in 50ml of distilled water, the question is how evenly is the naltrexone dispersed... Shake well.

Anyway, here is a write up about fillers used with LDN:

http://www.gazorpa.com/LDNFillers.html


Sorry for the confusion. That is not where I was going with the weight post. I have a very sensitive scale, so
I was going to cap them instead. If you measure the total weight of the tablet then crush it into powder. Then
figure out how much you want per dose and do the math. 50/3=16.6

So you would then weigh out 16 equal doses and then put each measured dose into an empty
gel cap, this would yield 3mg. per cap.

Most people dont have a sensitive enough scale to do this so they go the liquid route which doesnt
require weighing. liquid approach has some drawbacks, taste, dose measuring every night, potential
spoilage or degredation.

#26 YBC

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 06:26 PM

The binders / fillers do not completely dissolve. They break down into very, very fine particles but are still visible and settle at the bottom. I do swish the solution around vigorously immediately before dosing which results in a cloudy homogenous appearance.


Aight, thanks. Do they need to be crushed beforehand?

#27 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 06:39 PM

No, I drop the whole tablet into the water and it breaks apart and dissolves given a little time (a few minutes) and swishing action.

#28 inawe

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 07:06 PM

I still haven't solved my main problem: how to get naltrexone in the US.

#29 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 07:43 PM

It can legally be ordered from any overseas pharmacy, it is not scheduled or controlled in any way. Send me a PM if you have any questions.

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#30 krillin

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 08:16 PM

My solutions would keep in the fridge for at least 11 days. Upon finishing a batch, I would drop a whole pill in the flask and by the next day it would be completely disintegrated and ready for shaking into suspension.

Edit to add: more exotic immune supplements

Edited by krillin, 29 April 2008 - 08:22 PM.





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