25 replies to this topic

[electric buddha]

I was wondering what the current thought on DHEA was. About five years back, before I was old enough to really give it much consideration, it was the talk of the town. The hype's worn off, and I can't seem to find much information from the past couple years to confirm or deny whether it's worth taking.

[pycnogenol]

I take a low-dose brand* every day early in the morning for mood enhancement. Works well for me, at least for that purpose.


*Nature's Plus, DHEA 10 mg (micronized) with bioperine plus a small amount (1/2 capsule: 5 mg) of Country Life, Pregnenolone.

Edited by pycnogenol, 08 June 2008 - 01:46 PM.

[tintinet]

I was wondering what the current thought on DHEA was. About five years back, before I was old enough to really give it much consideration, it was the talk of the town. The hype's worn off, and I can't seem to find much information from the past couple years to confirm or deny whether it's worth taking.

I've been in the same boat. Lately, I've seen little to support taking DHEA. Mayo Clinic take here.

[edward]

I would get you hormone levels tested, if you are on the low end of the DHEA range then supplementation is a good idea. I think DHEA should be view from a hormone replacement therapy perspective rather then from a dietary supplement.

[edward]

Note also that DHEA declines with age, so if you are over the age of 30 you are already in the decline stage, by 40 levels are much lower. My perspective on hormone replacement therapy is to try to get all levels matching what they were at about age 25 so DHEA is no exception.

One problem though, as one ages apparently the body does a better job of aromatizing (ie converting andro and testosterone to estrogen) so it may be prudent to take a low dose of an anti-aromatizing drug or supplement if you do try to bump up your hormone levels (DHEA converts to Andro which itself can be aromatized or converted to Testosterone which also can then be aromatized)

[stephen_b]

There is also a thread on the resveratrol board about anecdotal evidence from forum members that high dose (roughly 1.25 g and above) resveratrol supplementation might lower DHEA. That's perhaps an additional reason for supplementation.

Stephen

[tintinet]

While low DHEA may be a problem, I've not seen much support for attempting to elevate it via supplementation.

Edited by tintinet, 08 June 2008 - 07:04 PM.

[ortcloud]

Note also that DHEA declines with age, so if you are over the age of 30 you are already in the decline stage, by 40 levels are much lower. My perspective on hormone replacement therapy is to try to get all levels matching what they were at about age 25 so DHEA is no exception.

One problem though, as one ages apparently the body does a better job of aromatizing (ie converting andro and testosterone to estrogen) so it may be prudent to take a low dose of an anti-aromatizing drug or supplement if you do try to bump up your hormone levels (DHEA converts to Andro which itself can be aromatized or converted to Testosterone which also can then be aromatized)

I completely agree edward. One should just get tested and check your levels. I checked mine and they were very low, I have started supplementing with transdermal dhea and I am experiencing amazing changes in how I feel, mentally, physically, emotionally. For estrogen control, I am using calcium d glucarate which excretes estrogens and other carcinogens/toxins. I also have decided to take saw palmetto to try to control excess dht.

I already ordered some more blood tests to recheck my levels while the lef sale was still on so I could lock in the price. The lef panel is such a killer deal, I hope everyone is taking advantage of it. I also bought the new coq10 blood test as I looked into testing it in the past and it was extremely expensive, lef has it for I think less than $100.

[James186282]

If you have low levels and you need to do labs to find that out I think its of value. Mine are low. My doctor has oked me using it and when I do I sleep well and have dreams that I can remember. When I don't I don't dream (Or at least I don't remember any) and I wake up tired. My doctor thinks without DHEA I might not be able to get to REM and thats not good...

[david ellis]

One problem though, as one ages apparently the body does a better job of aromatizing (ie converting andro and testosterone to estrogen) so it may be prudent to take a low dose of an anti-aromatizing drug or supplement if you do try to bump up your hormone levels (DHEA converts to Andro which itself can be aromatized or converted to Testosterone which also can then be aromatized)

And the testosterone can also convert to DHT. Excess Estradiol plus more DHT. Gynecomastia plus thinning hair,, a short list of unpleasant side effects. In my opinion, blood tests are well worth the money. I can affirm that at my age, slightly elderly, that DHEA works. I am using pygeum to control DHT, (Palmetto causes me significant side-effects). And occcasional 1/4 tablet of Arimidex to control estradiol. Blood tests show the expected increase in DHEAs and the conversion to testosterone is also significant for my age.

[tomnook]

One problem though, as one ages apparently the body does a better job of aromatizing (ie converting andro and testosterone to estrogen) so it may be prudent to take a low dose of an anti-aromatizing drug or supplement if you do try to bump up your hormone levels (DHEA converts to Andro which itself can be aromatized or converted to Testosterone which also can then be aromatized)

And the testosterone can also convert to DHT. Excess Estradiol plus more DHT. Gynecomastia plus thinning hair,, a short list of unpleasant side effects. In my opinion, blood tests are well worth the money. I can affirm that at my age, slightly elderly, that DHEA works. I am using pygeum to control DHT, (Palmetto causes me significant side-effects). And occcasional 1/4 tablet of Arimidex to control estradiol. Blood tests show the expected increase in DHEAs and the conversion to testosterone is also significant for my age.

I'm in my mid-50's and have high-normal testosterone and low levels of DHEAs, estradiol is normal. I took 100mg of 7-Keto for several months which seems to have had no effect on my DHEAs levels but my midday testosterone level doubles, presumably due to some supplement. Any idea what could cause this significant temporary elevation? Other than 7-Keto, which should not be able to do this I can only think of Zinc 30mg which I take on alternate days.

I'd like to elevate my DHEA to at least normal levels for my age without raising my testosterone - suggestions welcome!

[resveratrol]

I'm in my mid-50's and have high-normal testosterone and low levels of DHEAs, estradiol is normal. I took 100mg of 7-Keto for several months which seems to have had no effect on my DHEAs levels but my midday testosterone level doubles, presumably due to some supplement.

7-keto is a metabolite of DHEA, so I don't think it can raise DHEA levels by itself; you need to take ordinary DHEA to do that.

Not sure why the increased testosterone would happen, since 7-keto doesn't convert to testosterone.

[david ellis]

I'm in my mid-50's and have high-normal testosterone and low levels of DHEAs, estradiol is normal. I took 100mg of 7-Keto for several months which seems to have had no effect on my DHEAs levels but my midday testosterone level doubles, presumably due to some supplement. Any idea what could cause this significant temporary elevation? Other than 7-Keto, which should not be able to do this I can only think of Zinc 30mg which I take on alternate days.

I'd like to elevate my DHEA to at least normal levels for my age without raising my testosterone - suggestions welcome!

Let me get this straight, you went from high normal to twice high normal testosterone? That is unusual. Do you have two DHEA test results also? So your testosterone is unusual, and I suspect your DHEA is also unusual being that it is low at the same time your testosterone is high. I wouldn't supplement anything until I understood why I had unusual readings. The 7-Keto normally shouldn't have any any thing to do with it. Are you confident in your lab?

[tomnook]

I'm in my mid-50's and have high-normal testosterone and low levels of DHEAs, estradiol is normal. I took 100mg of 7-Keto for several months which seems to have had no effect on my DHEAs levels but my midday testosterone level doubles, presumably due to some supplement.

7-keto is a metabolite of DHEA, so I don't think it can raise DHEA levels by itself; you need to take ordinary DHEA to do that.

Not sure why the increased testosterone would happen, since 7-keto doesn't convert to testosterone.

Thanks for that - I'd completely misunderstood from reading the info. on this web page by Dr Michael Murray - http://tiny.cc/DU76i - i.e. I have low DHEA but elevated testosterone so 7-Keto DHEA would be appropriate. No wonder my DHEA levels haven't changed - I'm reluctant to simply supplement with DHEA due to my already high-normal test. levels.

[tomnook]

Let me get this straight, you went from high normal to twice high normal testosterone? That is unusual. Do you have two DHEA test results also? So your testosterone is unusual, and I suspect your DHEA is also unusual being that it is low at the same time your testosterone is high. I wouldn't supplement anything until I understood why I had unusual readings. The 7-Keto normally shouldn't have any any thing to do with it. Are you confident in your lab?

For a few reasons I had a salivary male hormone panel run over a 24-hour period. My DHEAs and Testosterone has been checked over the past four years by serum with the results consistently showing low levels of DHEA and high-normal test. The salivary results were similar apart from the significantly elevated testosterone for the midday reading :

Serum (2004 - 2008)
DHEAs 160 - 220 ng/ml Range 220-540 ng/ml (0.22-0.54 mcg/dl)
Testosterone 700 - 717 ng/ml Range 213-755 ng/dl

Salivary 2008
DHEAs 8am: 204 (283-610) 12-noon: 233 (176-377) 4pm: 226 (141-220) midnight: 163 (110-220) ng/ml
Test. 8am: 16.84 12-noon: 38.3 4pm: 17.58 midnight: 13.8 (5-21) ng/dl

Lab reports:
Testosterone : Values tending towards the upper end of reference range - noon value significantly above reference range (Supplementation?). Typically normal profile would see values within reference range and gradually falling to midnight.
DHEA-s : slightly erratic hormone output - however overall profile indicates normal hormone output.
Cortisol: Overall profile indicates normal hormone output
Progesterone: Salivary progesterone at the upper end of male reference range
Secretory IgA: Salivary sIgA wihin normal reference range
Melatonin: Midnight melatonin consistent with normal hormone output.

My lab reports are all in SI (european) units so I've converted them to US values (hopefully!)

At midday my DHEA-s and test. are at the day's maximum ... albeit the testosterone is way over the reference range - I'd still like to raise my DHEA-s level somehow since it is so low. Maybe the best idea would be for me to repeat the salivary test having stopped supplements for a few days - although when I had it tested here I'm fairly certain that I took nothing other than two Orthocore capsules, maybe a Coq-10 (ubiquinol) 50mg and a 30mg Optizinc. I should have considered this at the time though and laid off everything for a few days.

Thanks again for your input!

[david ellis]

I'm reluctant to simply supplement with DHEA due to my already high-normal test. levels.

That makes sense. Your testosterone did spike high. I didn't know salivary tests were so time sensitive. Multiple saliva tests or a concurrent serum test are needed to understand the test results. I am glad I saw them. Thanks.

[stephen_b]

Serum (2004 - 2008)
DHEAs 160 - 220 ng/ml Range 220-540 ng/ml (0.22-0.54 mcg/dl)
Testosterone 700 - 717 ng/ml Range 213-755 ng/dl

Salivary 2008
DHEAs 8am: 204 (283-610) 12-noon: 233 (176-377) 4pm: 226 (141-220) midnight: 163 (110-220) ng/ml
Test. 8am: 16.84 12-noon: 38.3 4pm: 17.58 midnight: 13.8 (5-21) ng/dl

My lab reports are all in SI (european) units so I've converted them to US values (hopefully!)

Interesting. I have similar numbers from May of this year, with even lower DHEAs:

DHEA-sulfate: 84 micrograms/dL
Serum testosterone: 776 ng/dL
Free testosterone (direct): 18.6 pg/mL

I wonder whether DHEA and higher testosterone have some correlation in general?

My LEF consultant recommended increasing DHEA for life extension goals. My DHEA-sulfate levels were twice that in October 2007. Have you increased or started taking resveratrol (thread in resveratrol forum).

Stephen

[tomnook]

I wonder whether DHEA and higher testosterone have some correlation in general?

My LEF consultant recommended increasing DHEA for life extension goals. My DHEA-sulfate levels were twice that in October 2007. Have you increased or started taking resveratrol (thread in resveratrol forum).

Stephen

Interesting so see such similar results!
I've only taken minimal amounts of resveratrol quite intermittently - 100mg once or twice a day so I doubt if that has any relevance to my own levels. For the recent serum and salivary tests I was on holiday and took only a minimal amount of supplements with me i.e. Orthocore, Coq-10, and a couple of others so I'd be interested to know if one of them could have caused such a difference in my midday testosterone reading. I'll probably run another 24-hour test minus any supps. just to get a baseline reading. I did take 500mg of 98% resveratrol twice a day on a few occasions and seem to recall feeling quite lousy afterwards - general aches and pains ... maybe it did affect my hormone levels.

BTW, I was interested to read the earlier post by James which indicated a possible link between low DHEA and and absence of REM sleep - I've always slept well but could rarely recall dreaming at all over the past ten years or more - I've recently begun taken low dose melatonin and have begun dreaming again .... or, at least, I can now recall dreaming. How's your dreaming? Just out of interest!

Dave

[stephen_b]

How's your dreaming? Just out of interest!

Dave

Before I started melatonin, I didn't recall much in the way of dreams.

Stephen

[HereInTheHole]

My wife and I started on DHEA about a week ago. We both experienced side effects we weren't expecting. I started taking DHEA to stablize my low blood sugar. My wife started taking it to help with a few pounds she didn't want.

My wife works with horses. Every single day, she'd come home with aching feet and ankles. She'd have a difficult time walking after waking up. The prescription naproxen sodium wasn't helping. After about 3 days on 50 mg per day of DHEA, her usual feet and ankle pains have been minimal to non-existent. And yes, we are watching for signs of negative effects, especially those associated with male hormones.

The last time I was limber was when I was taking large doses of naproxen sodium, ibuprofen, and aspirin together, every day for weeks. That's my recommended liver stack. Now, on 75 mg of DHEA spaced throughout the day, I can sit cross-legged again. Yesterday, I realized the rotator cuff injury from lifting weights incorrectly a decade ago isn't bothering me. In the past, that dull ache only went away with a mouthful of anti-inflammatories. Push-ups usually make the shoulder audibly snap. When that happens it feels like a rubberband being plucked. I did a set of pushups today without the rubberband feeling and with only a tiny snap noise.

We'll see if these are just placebo effects. Although I doubt it, since we weren't expecting these results.

[krillin]

I have similar numbers from May of this year, with even lower DHEAs:

Mine was lower still back in June. It looks like I'll need a gigantic 150 mg/day to get to the desired 400-500 mcg/dl range.

June 50 mg (4 days/week) = 75 mcg/dl
August 100 mg (every day) = 268 mcg/dl

[Moonbeam]

BTW, I was interested to read the earlier post by James which indicated a possible link between low DHEA and and absence of REM sleep - I've always slept well but could rarely recall dreaming at all over the past ten years or more - I've recently begun taken low dose melatonin and have begun dreaming again .... or, at least, I can now recall dreaming. How's your dreaming? Just out of interest!

An explanation may be that melatonin inhitibits REM sleep. So when you take it at night, you have REM re-bound in the early morning hours, as your mind tries to catch up with what it needs. This means you will have more dreams later in the night, which are more likely to be remembered. It's something that people who want to enhance their dreaming do sometimes.

[bacopa666]

The salivary results were similar apart from the significantly elevated testosterone for the midday reading.

Yeah. I wouldn't pay much attention to salivary results. For a few tests I purposely got up in the morning, did the salivary tests, and then went directly to Labcorp for blood work. Comparing the results, it was obvious that the salivary results were from outer space. I have to go with the validity of the blood work, which was consistent with the numbers from blood work done my entire life. Now maybe people want to argue these were flukes or something, but I did my homework here and you couldn't pay me to look at a salivary test again.

[SearchHorizon]

I have felt no effect from DHEA (at all different dosing schemes).

This is fairly consistent with what I learned some time ago about DHEA ...

I forget what I learned, unfortunately ...

[James186282]

I just wanted to update my experience with DHEA. I started to see a little less "dreaming" and sound sleep. I spoke to an Endo who said (as someone else pointed out) that the latest R&D on DHEA is not very positive. Then I was told "Its difficult to prove a negative however so, it may well have good outcomes for you." Then we talked about the odd connection to my quality of sleep. The doctors take on this is that DHEA may not be directly responsible for improving this thinking that its more likely that DHEA is influencing a number of other hormones in a positive way. *Which is one reason it maybe complicated to test it since its a precursor to so many other things. Anyhow, the doctor was ok with me going up from my pretty wimpy dose (15mg) to see how that worked.

[Orajel]

I would get you hormone levels tested, if you are on the low end of the DHEA range then supplementation is a good idea. I think DHEA should be view from a hormone replacement therapy perspective rather then from a dietary supplement.

This is a very good point. There is almsot no evidence that people with healthy levels of DHEA can benefit from supplementing it, and some evidence that those with low levels can benefit from supplementing it. I believe that it should most definately be viewed from a hormone replacement therapy postition, seeing as it is a steroid hormone, and introducing any steroid hormone into your body will create a reaction of some kind.

There isn't much evidence that supplementing DHEA will downregulate natural production, but it seems reasonable to assume so. Most doctors I've talked with, who have experience with hormone replacement therapy, seem to think it can have a negative effect if supplemented in healthy individuals. It does seem safe to take if you have low levels, but always be aware of what could happen. Messing with your endocrine system can be dangerous. Also, keep in mind that people with low testosterone receiving hormone replacement therapy usually take aromatase inhibitors as well. Even though they have low levels of testosterone, their bodies usually up-regulate estrogen production. The human body is tricky, it likes to remain where it is. Even if where it is is not ideal. DHEA can aromatize to estrogen. Even if it metabolizes into testosterone, your body will most likely up-regulate production of estrogen in an attempt to reach equilibrium.

I've had success with DHEA using it as a post cyclle therapy after an AAS steroid cycle, with the addition of prescription HCG and aromatase inhibitors. I'm not running any steroid cycles any time soon, so I avoid it.

Edited by Orajel, 16 March 2012 - 05:10 AM.