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Quick question about Huperzine


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#1 Leo

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 09:17 PM


Is it necessary to combine Huperzine A with a choline source or should I take it on its own? I know these two supplements raise acetylcholine via different routes but shouldn't there be enough choline in my system for Huperzine to perform its cholinesterase inhibiting action?

#2 Mr.Bananas

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 09:02 AM

Is it necessary to combine Huperzine A with a choline source or should I take it on its own? I know these two supplements raise acetylcholine via different routes but shouldn't there be enough choline in my system for Huperzine to perform its cholinesterase inhibiting action?

Huperzine doesnt need acetylcholine to inhibit cholinesterase. But you can still take cdp choline or what ever, it depends on the dose though, you might get overstimulated by too much acetylcholine.

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#3 Rags847

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 09:14 PM

Don't take a choline source and a cholinesterase inhibitor at the same time, Leo. Too much ACh. And why take a cholinesterase inhibitors at all? They are potent and dangerous. LEF recommend that if you do take Huperzine A that you only take a low dose 2X/wk and do not take it long-term (more than a few months) continuously. The idea of supplementing Piracetam with a choline donating source is that Piracetam is excitatory and uses up ACh. So, a choline source like CDP-Choline is just restoring levels.
Also seems like a greater risk of cholinergic receptor down-regulation with the re-uptake inhibitors.




http://www.lef.org/m...2000_qanda.html

LE Magazine November 2000

Q & A


Huperzine A
Making the right move on when and how much you should take

Q I am seeing a lot of ads for Huperzine A, a cognitive enhancer. Several mail order companies carry products with huperzine. Have you evaluated it?

We have extensively evaluated Huperzine A and do not recommend that healthy people take it every day. Huperzine A functions as an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. That means that it inhibits an enzyme in your brain that is responsible for degrading the neurotransmitter acetylcholine. Alzheimer's disease patients have elevated levels of acetylcholinesterase and can therefore benefit by taking drugs like Aricept or nutrients like Huperzine A, which inhibit acetylcholinesterase.

Healthy people, on the other hand, need acetylcholinesterase to regulate acetylcholine levels in their brains. If you wanted to impress someone with your short-term memory on any given day you could safely take the recommended dose of Huperzine A, but we would not advise that you do so daily. We have a member who is a world class chess player, and has proven he can improve his scores by taking Huperzine A the day of a chess tournament.

While it is safe to boost acetylcholine levels by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase periodically, chronic use of Huperzine A could cause over-suppression of acetylcholinesterase and subsequent acetylcholine overload with unknown consequences. Remember, you can take huge amounts of acetylcholine precursors such as choline without fear of acetylcholine overload because you have acetylcholinesterase to degrade excess acetylcholine. If you block the body's natural regulator of acetylcholine (that regulator being acetylcholinesterease), you may have a problem. We do not recommend that people take Huperzine A more than twice a week, much less promote it for daily use like other companies do.



So Leo, let your cholinesterase do it's regulating job of breaking down acetylcholine. Add choline through a choline donator. Note that some studies have shown that cholinesterase breaksdown ACh while we sleep and that this lowering of ACh levels overnight is a good thing for memory consolidation (turning short-term memories into long-term memories).
I'd ditch the spotty Huperine A you have and start with the Piracetam and CDP-Choline.




An article on memory consolidation and ACh levels here:
http://www.post-gaze...4032/267587.stm

"In the new study, Dr. Steffen Gais of the University of Lubeck in Germany tested memory in 29 men given bedtime doses of a drug that keeps acetylcholine levels high. The men were young, aged 18-35, and healthy. The drug seriously impaired their memories. Men given the drug were less able to remember words learned the previous day than men who took none."
"The Gais' study... revealed that the brain needs a temporary drop in acetylcholine during sleep so that it can upload data from a temporary storage depot to another region that holds more permanent memories. 'This study teaches us that although patients may need increased acetylcholine during waking, keeping it constantly elevated may block a certain component of memory consolidation that requires a temporary drop in acetylcholine,' Power said."




Also, a decent thread here: http://www.imminst.o...?showtopic=5072

Edited by Rags847, 21 July 2008 - 09:50 PM.

  • Ill informed x 1

#4 Mr.Bananas

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 09:29 PM

This talk about huperzine possibly being dangerous sounds healthy and all, but is there any scientific research that supports the claims? I have never seen any proof for or against these claims.

#5 Leo

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 09:57 PM

Thanks again Rags for the helpful advice :)

So Leo, let your cholinesterase do it's regulating job of breaking down acetylcholine. Add choline through a choline donator. Note that some studies have shown that cholinesterase breaksdown ACh while we sleep and that this lowering of ACh levels overnight is a good thing for memory consolidation (turning short-term memories into long-term memories).
I'd ditch the spotty Huperine A you have and start with the Piracetam and CDP-Choline.



#6 Rags847

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 10:07 PM

This talk about huperzine possibly being dangerous sounds healthy and all, but is there any scientific research that supports the claims? I have never seen any proof for or against these claims.



Would seem to me that the brain is used fluxuations of increased or decreased levels of ACh depending on our diet that day (eating choline-rich foods - eggs, meats, nuts, etc - or not doing so) or depending on whether we supplement with a choline source or not. ACh is ubiquitous throughout the body. Supplimenting with a choline source justs adds a little more while leaving cholinesterase alone to do its regulating function. Why not just gently tweak how much ACh is in our system through choline donors? Why mess with regulating/breakdown functions?
You never see anyone warning to just take CDP-Choline two times a week and not for long-term.
Cholinesterase inhibitors are Alzheimer's drugs. And they don't cure or reverse AD, they temporarily mask symptoms of decline. AD patients have too much cholinesterases and too little ACh produced and too few good years left to live, so the risk is worthwhile.
Makes intuitive sense to me, anyway.

Edited by Rags847, 21 July 2008 - 10:16 PM.


#7 Rags847

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 10:14 PM

Thanks again Rags for the helpful advice :)


NP, dude.

Edited by Rags847, 21 July 2008 - 10:15 PM.


#8 zoolander

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 10:31 PM

sorry to bust into the room and break up the party but Rags847 can you verify any of the information you provided with recent peer reviewed research?

Most of the recent research on Huperzine A is very positive. Below is a paper that discuss most of the recent findings, which include regulating beta-amyloid precursor protein (APP) metabolism, protecting against Abeta-mediated oxidative stress, apoptosis and mitochondrial dysfunction, as well as anti-inflammation.

Chem Biol Interact. 2008 May 13.[Epub ahead of print]Click here to read Links
Potential therapeutic targets of huperzine A for Alzheimer's disease and vascular dementia.
Zhang HY, Zheng CY, Yan H, Wang ZF, Tang LL, Gao X, Tang XC.

State Key Laboratory of Drug Research, Shanghai Institute of Materia Medica, Chinese Academy of Sciences, 555 Zu Chong Zhi Road, Shanghai 201203, China.

Huperzine A (HupA), a novel Lycopodium alkaloid isolated from Chinese folk medicine Huperzia serrata (Qian Ceng Ta), is a potent, selective and well-tolerated inhibitor of acetylcholinesterase (AChE). It has been proven to significantly improve the learning and memory impairment in Alzheimer's disease (AD) and vascular dementia (VaD) patients in China. Interestingly, our recent data indicate that HupA also possesses other protective functions. This paper will give an overview on the protective effects of HupA, which includes regulating beta-amyloid precursor protein (APP) metabolism, protecting against Abeta-mediated oxidative stress, apoptosis and mitochondrial dysfunction, as well as anti-inflammation. The multiple neuroprotective effects of HupA might yield additional beneficial effects in AD and VaD therapy.


Perhaps LEF should update the information they published in the year 2000 with the most recent information.

Rag847, perhaps you should read the above paper. The journal it was published in release 6 papers on Huperzine A in that issue.

Edited by zoolander, 22 July 2008 - 12:00 AM.


#9 Rags847

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 11:51 PM

Yea zoolander, I've seen various articles on the possible protective functions of Huperzine A. I still think my above concerns are concerning. We already take in choline through our diet (milk, liver, eggs, peanuts, soybeans, beef, cauliflower, kale, cabbage, etc). Boosting our choline intake through supplements is more natural (like eating more eggs that day). Inhibiting the mechanism that breaksdown and regulates ACh isn't something we naturally do through our diet (acetylcholinesterase inhibitors occur naturally as venoms and poisons and are used as weapons in the form of nerve agents). Again, seems more caution is warranted in monitoring how much and for how long one supplements with an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor.
Most importantly, this thread is started by a newbie, first time nootropic user that was about to supplement both, in combination, a choline donator (CDP-Choline) and an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor (Huperzine A) right out of the gate.
You didn't mention NGF (Nerve Growth Factor) and Huperzine A (see the 2006 LEF article below). NGF is the an exciting area of research. Neurons can grow, debunking the old theory that we are born with a certain number of brain cells and we slowly lose them throughout life. Well worth noting that Alpha GPC-Choline (the other superior choline source besides CDP-Choline) has been found to promote NGF, as well.


LE Magazine January 2006
In The News
Huperzine A Promotes Nerve Cell Growth

Huperzine A, a phytochemical derived from the Chinese medicinal herb club moss (Huperzia serrata), promotes nerve cell growth and may benefit those suffering from Alzheimer’s disease and other neurodegenerative disorders, according to researchers at State Key Laboratory of Drug Research in Shanghai, China.*

Previous studies have demonstrated that huperzine A inhibits the breakdown of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine by inhibiting the enzyme acetylcholinesterase. Acetylcholine is responsible for relaying messages throughout the central and peripheral nervous systems. Numerous acetylcholinesterase-inhibiting drugs have been approved for treating Alzheimer’s disease.

This study investigated huperzine A’s effects on neurite outgrowth and nerve growth factor expression in a model of primary neuronal cells (PC12) in the laboratory. Neurites are outgrowths of neurons that form connections between cells, allowing for the transmission of messages. Nerve growth factor promotes neurite growth and may protect normal nerves from oxidative damage.

After just 24 hours of treatment with huperzine A, levels of nerve growth factor increased in the PC12 cells. After 48 hours of treatment, the number of neurite-bearing cells increased dramatically. Furthermore, treating PC12 cells with huperzine A inhibited acetylcholinesterase activity. The researchers concluded that huperzine A has direct or indirect neurotrophic (nerve-growth-promoting) activity, and suggested that huperzine A may be beneficial in treating neurodegenerative disorders such as Alzheimer’s disease.

Human studies are under way in the US to evaluate whether huperzine A benefits individuals with Alzheimer’s disease.

—Christie C. Yerby, ND
Reference

* Tang LL, Wang R, Tang XC. Effects of huperzine A on secretion of nerve growth factor in cultured rat cortical astocytes and neurite outgrowth in rat PC12 cells. Acta Pharmacol Sin. 2005 June;26(6):673-8.



Here is the abstract of that study:

Acta Pharmacol Sin. 2005 Jun;26(6):673-8.
Effects of huperzine A on secretion of nerve growth factor in cultured rat cortical astrocytes and neurite outgrowth in rat PC12 cells.
Tang LL, Wang R, Tang XC.

State Key Laboratory of Drug Research, Shanghai Institute of Materia Medica, Shanghai Institutes for Biological Sciences, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Shanghai 201203, China.

AIM: To study the effects of huperzine A (HupA) on neuritogenic activity and the expression of nerve growth factor (NGF). METHODS: After being treated with 10 micromol/L HupA, neurite outgrowth of PC12 cells was observed and counted under phase-contrast microscopy. Mitogenic activity was assayed by [3H]thymidine incorporation. Cell cytotoxicity was evaluated by lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) release. AChE activity, mRNA and protein expression were measured by the Ellman method, RT-PCR, and Western blot, respectively. NGF mRNA and protein levels were determined by RT-PCR and ELISA assays. RESULTS: Treatment of PC12 cells with 10 micromol/L HupA for 48 h markedly increased the number of neurite-bearing cells, but caused no significant alteration in cell viability or other signs of cytotoxicity. In addition to inhibiting AChE activity, 10 micromol/L HupA also increased the mRNA and protein levels of this enzyme. In addition, following 2 h exposure of the astrocytes to 10 micromol/L HupA, there was a significant up-regulation of mRNA for NGF and P75 low-affinity NGF receptor. The protein level of NGF was also increased after 24 h treatment with HupA. CONCLUSION: Our findings demonstrate for the first time that HupA has a direct or indirect neurotrophic activity, which might be beneficial in treatment of neurodegenerative disorders such as Alzheimer disease.

PMID: 15916732 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Edited by Rags847, 22 July 2008 - 12:05 AM.


#10 Rags847

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 12:38 AM

Here is what is going on with Huperzine A right now:

http://www.alzforum....etail.asp?id=53

Drugs In Clinical Trials
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image
Important Notice: The Forum does not endorse any medical product or therapy. ALL medications and supplements should be taken ONLY under the supervision of a physician, due to the possibility of side-effects, drug interactions, etc.
Name: Huperzine A
Other Names: Cerebra capsule , Pharmassure Memorall capsule
Therapeutic Applications:
All stages of Alzheimer disease
Therapy Types:
Orally administered nutraceutical
Mechanisms:
Multiple mechanisms of action include potent and selective inhibition of AChE; alterations in APP processing; reduction of neurotoxicity by Aβ; antioxidant effects; increase of NGF production.
Development Status:
investigational in U.S.
FDA Phase:
Phase II/IIa/IIb
Primary Medical Role:
Huperzine A is a plant alkaloid derived from the club moss Huperzia serrata, previously used as a treatment for swelling and fever. Huperzine A is a potent, reversible, selective inhibitor of AChE with similar or higher potency than tacrine or donepezil. It is currently in phase 4 clinical testing in China for treatment of Alzheimer disease, and in the U.S., a multicenter (29 centers in 17 states), double-blind, placebo controlled phase 2 clinical trial is in enrollment stage (until late spring 2007), clinical trial NCT00083590.
Role in Alzheimer's Disease:
Animal and cell culture studies, along with molecular structure data, suggest that huperzine A is a potent acetylcholinesterase (AChE) inhibitor and protects neurons against glutamate-induced excitotoxicity, while decreasing glutamate-induced calcium mobilization (Gordon et al., 2001). Huperzine A increases sAPPa, by increasing levels of protein kinase C isoform a in ICV infused rats and cell culture (Zhang et al., 2004). Preincubation of cultured rat cortical neurons with huperzine A protects cells from Aβ(25-35)-induced apoptosis and inhibits reactive oxygen species generation and caspase 3 activation (Xiao et al., 2002). The molecule's strong specificity for AChE suggests it may have lower liver toxicity and other adverse effects. Pharmacological Role: Animal and cell culture studies, along with molecular structure data, suggest that Huperzine A is a potent acetylcholinesterase (AChE) inhibitor and may also protect neurons against glutamate-induced excitotoxicity. The molecule's strong specificity for AChE suggests it may have lower liver toxicity and other adverse effects. There is now considerable interest in exploiting the 3D structure of Huperzine A to synthesize even more potent and selective AChE inhibitors.
Contraindications:
Due to huperzine A effects on AChE inhibition, a history of active peptic ulcer disease is an exclusion criterion for the phase 2 clinical trial now enrolling (until late spring 2007). Huperzine A may counteract the effects of such drugs as dicyclomine or propantheline that are used to decrease acetylcholine's effects in the treatment of diarrhea-prominent irritable bowel syndrome. Due to known adverse effects of huperzine A, a history of cardiac arrhythmia is also an exclusion criterion for the phase 2 trial.
Side Effects:
Huperzine A may cause seizures or heart rhythm changes. It may also be associated with blurred vision, dizziness, nausea, and increased saliva and sweat.
Companies:
Neuro-Hitech, Inc.
Notes:
Huperzine A is currently in phase 4 in China for treatment of Alzheimer disease, and in the U.S., a multicenter (29 centers in 17 states), double-blind, placebo controlled phase 2 clinical trial is in enrollment stage until late spring 2007, with completion of the trial expected in late 2008, clinical trial NCT00083590. Two doses (200 and 400 micrograms, bid) will be tested compared to placebo. Posted Image
References

Zhang HY, Tang XC. Neuroprotective effects of huperzine A: new therapeutic targets for neurodegenerative disease. Trends Pharmacol Sci. 2006 Dec 1;27(12):619-25. Abstract

Wang R, Yan H, Tang XC. Progress in studies of huperzine A, a natural cholinesterase inhibitor from Chinese herbal medicine. Acta Pharmacol Sin. 2006 Jan 1;27(1):1-26. Abstract

Zhang HY, Yan H, Tang XC. Huperzine A enhances the level of secretory amyloid precursor protein and protein kinase C-alpha in intracerebroventricular beta-amyloid-(1-40) infused rats and human embryonic kidney 293 Swedish mutant cells. Neurosci Lett. 2004 Apr 22;360(1-2):21-4. Abstract

Jiang H, Luo X, Bai D. Progress in clinical, pharmacological, chemical and structural biological studies of huperzine A: a drug of traditional chinese medicine origin for the treatment of Alzheimer's disease. Curr Med Chem. 2003 Nov ;10(21):2231-52. Abstract

Zhang HY, Liang YQ, Tang XC, He XC, Bai DL. Stereoselectivities of enantiomers of huperzine A in protection against beta-amyloid(25-35)-induced injury in PC12 and NG108-15 cells and cholinesterase inhibition in mice. Neurosci Lett. 2002 Jan 14;317(3):143-6. Abstract

Xiao XQ, Zhang HY, Tang XC. Huperzine A attenuates amyloid beta-peptide fragment 25-35-induced apoptosis in rat cortical neurons via inhibiting reactive oxygen species formation and caspase-3 activation. J Neurosci Res. 2002 Jan 1;67(1):30-6. Abstract

Gordon RK, Nigam SV, Weitz JA, Dave JR, Doctor BP, Ved HS. The NMDA receptor ion channel: a site for binding of Huperzine A. J Appl Toxicol. 2001 Dec;21 Suppl 1:S47-51. Abstract

Zhou J, Fu Y, Tang XC. Huperzine A and donepezil protect rat pheochromocytoma cells against oxygen-glucose deprivation. Neurosci Lett. 2001 Jun 22;306(1-2):53-6. Abstract

Wang R, Zhang HY, Tang XC. Huperzine A attenuates cognitive dysfunction and neuronal degeneration caused by beta-amyloid protein-(1-40) in rat. Eur J Pharmacol. 2001 Jun 15;421(3):149-56. Abstract

Zhang JM, Hu GY. Huperzine A, a nootropic alkaloid, inhibits N-methyl-D-aspartate-induced current in rat dissociated hippocampal neurons. Neuroscience. 2001;105 (3):663-9. Abstract

Camps P, El Achab R, Morral J, Munoz-Torrero D, Badia A, Banos JE, Vivas NM, Barril X, Orozco M, Luque FJ. New tacrine-huperzine A hybrids (huprines): highly potent tight-binding acetylcholinesterase inhibitors of interest for the treatment of Alzheimer's disease. J Med Chem. 2000 Nov 30;43(24):4657-66. Abstract

Xiao XQ, Wang R, Tang XC. Huperzine A and tacrine attenuate beta-amyloid peptide-induced oxidative injury. J Neurosci Res. 2000 Sep 1;61(5):564-9. Abstract

Xiao XQ, Wang R, Han YF, Tang XC. Protective effects of huperzine A on beta-amyloid(25-35) induced oxidative injury in rat pheochromocytoma cells. Neurosci Lett. 2000 Jun 9;286(3):155-8. Abstract

Bai DL, Tang XC, He XC. Huperzine A, a potential therapeutic agent for treatment of Alzheimer's disease. Curr Med Chem. 2000 Mar;7(3):355-74. Abstract

Xu SS, Cai ZY, Qu ZW, Yang RM, Cai YL, Wang GQ, Su XQ, Zhong XS, Cheng RY, Xu WA, Li JX, Feng B. Huperzine-A in capsules and tablets for treating patients with Alzheimer disease. Chung Kuo Yao Li Hsueh Pao. 1999 Jun;20(6):486-90. Abstract

Ye JW, Cai JX, Wang LM, Tang XC. Improving effects of huperzine A on spatial working memory in aged monkeys and young adult monkeys with experimental cognitive impairment. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1999 Feb;288(2):814-9. Abstract

Cheng DH, Tang XC. Comparative studies of huperzine A, E2020, and tacrine on behavior and cholinesterase activities. Pharmacol Biochem Behav 1998 Jun;60(2):377-86. Abstract

Raves ML, Harel M, Pang YP, Silman I, Kozikowski AP, Sussman JL. Structure of acetylcholinesterase complexed with the nootropic alkaloid, (-)-huperzine A. Nat Struct Biol. 1997 Jan;4(1):57-63. Abstract

Tang XC. Huperzine A (shuangyiping): a promising drug for Alzheimer's disease. Zhongguo Yao Li Xue Bao. 1996 Nov;17 (6):481-4. Abstract

Zhi QX, Yi FH, XI CT. Huperzine A ameliorates the spatial working memory impairments induced by AF64A. Neuroreport. 1995 Nov 13;6(16):2221-4. Abstract

Ashani Y, Grunwald J, Kronman C, Velan B, Shafferman A. Role of tyrosine 337 in the binding of huperzine A to the active site of human acetylcholinesterase. Mol Pharmacol. 1994 Mar;45(3):555-60. Abstract

Geib SJ, Tuckmantel W, Kozikowski AP. Huperzine A--a potent acetylcholinesterase inhibitor of use in the treatment of Alzheimer's disease. Acta Crystallogr C. 1991 Apr 15;47(Pt 4):824-7. Abstract

Edited by Rags847, 22 July 2008 - 12:42 AM.


#11 zoolander

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 05:23 AM

To be honest I am a tad suspicious of the so-called "new poster" who has asked a handful of questions about huperzine A. Seems like a viral marketing approach which typically goes like this:

VM: "Have you tried product b"
Member: "yes and it does a or b"
VM: "where does one get x from?"

Have a look at Leo's posts. He has been asking questions about a very particular set of compounds that a particular vendor sell. This vendor is know here for their viral marketing.

Anyhow.....Leo, I'm watching. I'm watching Leo, Rags847 and every other poster in the noots forum with low post counts. I'm quietly taking notes and waiting for you to exposure yourself. One step out of place and it's bye bye Kansas. Unless you want to pay for some airtime :)

#12 Rags847

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 06:50 AM

To be honest I am a tad suspicious of the so-called "new poster" who has asked a handful of questions about huperzine A. Seems like a viral marketing approach which typically goes like this:

VM: "Have you tried product b"
Member: "yes and it does a or b"
VM: "where does one get x from?"

Have a look at Leo's posts. He has been asking questions about a very particular set of compounds that a particular vendor sell. This vendor is know here for their viral marketing.

Anyhow.....Leo, I'm watching. I'm watching Leo, Rags847 and every other poster in the noots forum with low post counts. I'm quietly taking notes and waiting for you to exposure yourself. One step out of place and it's bye bye Kansas. Unless you want to pay for some airtime :)


Uh, okey-dokey!

Wouldn't wanna get kicked out of the Matrix, Morpheus.

I appreciate your efforts to keep spammers out of here. Some old threads do have people posting who were selling stuff, as well. This site should keep to a high level. And creating a research and supplier subform for the endless questions about where to get noots from was awesome.

But as far as Leo goes and as far as I go:
Low post counts? Though it says I have been a registered user since Nov 2007, I was actually reading on here since the beginning of 2006. I have 213 posts. Low post count? More than Dopamine's (a man who doesn't waste words, but when he posts he has something considered to say). As far as Leo goes, did you really read his posts and threads, thoroughly? I have been. He has sought advise here after reading on another forum site that aniracetam helped a fellow stutterer with his symptoms. He has asked if nootropics might ameliorate his stuttering frustration. He has asked about what racetam and choline source to use and what vendors to buy from and not buy from. He alerted us to the new energy drink with Piracetam as an ingredient (many people found that thread interesting). He asked about brown spots in his first-time-bought Huperzine A pills. He hasn't pushed a particular substance or a particular vender. He hasn't slammed certain vendors. He hasn't pushed people to buy the energy drink. He hasn't acted as a know-it-all. He hasn't made outlandish claims. He hasn't given injudicious advise.

Are you feeling OK, zoolander?
Nothing in your stack that could increase insecurity or paranoia? http://www.betterhea...ms?OpenDocument
Your dopamine levels are OK? http://www.nctimes.c...7_038_25_07.txt
You are sleeping enough? http://answers.yahoo...25183157AA9L3uI

This board could be more active. Many good people post and then never come back. Let's not chase the goods one's away with paranoia that will just look like strange inhospitality and an unprovoked attack from their point of view.

Edited by Rags847, 22 July 2008 - 07:19 AM.


#13 Mr.Bananas

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 09:16 AM

Well are there any _studies_ that concludes that huperzine should _not_ be taken daily?

Zoolander, im not trying to sell anything, i just want to see the study that says "huperzine is bad to take daily".

Edited by Mr.Bananas, 22 July 2008 - 09:17 AM.


#14 Leo

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 09:25 AM

Zoolander, I ordered Unique Nutrition brand of Huperzine and a couple of days later I found out about the LifeMirage issue on this forum. That's why I started asking questions about Huperzine because I felt that I may have ordered the wrong brand. I don't live in the USA so returning it is out of question. I didn't order the Life Extension brand because it has vitamin E in it. And the Nature's Plus brand has only 30 tablets, 50 mcg each. So I did the math and decided on the Unique Nutrition brand because it has 120 caps, 100 mcg each.

Anyway, I posted the pics of my Unique Nutrition Huperzine caps and I'm suspecting that they might be contaminated. Does that sound like a 'clever' marketing tactic to you?


To be honest I am a tad suspicious of the so-called "new poster" who has asked a handful of questions about huperzine A. Seems like a viral marketing approach which typically goes like this:

VM: "Have you tried product b"
Member: "yes and it does a or b"
VM: "where does one get x from?"

Have a look at Leo's posts. He has been asking questions about a very particular set of compounds that a particular vendor sell. This vendor is know here for their viral marketing.

Anyhow.....Leo, I'm watching. I'm watching Leo, Rags847 and every other poster in the noots forum with low post counts. I'm quietly taking notes and waiting for you to exposure yourself. One step out of place and it's bye bye Kansas. Unless you want to pay for some airtime :)



#15 Leo

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 09:37 AM

Rags, I don't think Zoolander read my previous posts thoroughly. Thank you for providing him with the highlights.

As far as Leo goes, did you really read his posts and threads, thoroughly? I have been. He has sought advise here after reading on another forum site that aniracetam helped a fellow stutterer with his symptoms. He has asked if nootropics might ameliorate his stuttering frustration. He has asked about what racetam and choline source to use and what vendors to buy from and not buy from. He alerted us to the new energy drink with Piracetam as an ingredient (many people found that thread interesting). He asked about brown spots in his first-time-bought Huperzine A pills. He hasn't pushed a particular substance or a particular vender. He hasn't slammed certain vendors. He hasn't pushed people to buy the energy drink. He hasn't acted as a know-it-all. He hasn't made outlandish claims. He hasn't given injudicious advise.



#16 Ben

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 12:44 PM

Your dopamine levels are OK? http://www.nctimes.c...7_038_25_07.txt


That link is about the neurological affects of meth addiction (one of them being hyperactivity, *snigger, snigger*).

#17 Ben

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 12:46 PM

Zoolander, I ordered Unique Nutrition brand of Huperzine and a couple of days later I found out about the LifeMirage issue on this forum. That's why I started asking questions about Huperzine because I felt that I may have ordered the wrong brand.



Glad you decided against the Unique Nutrition. Try NOW Food's brand at iherb.

#18 Leo

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 01:33 PM

Nah, Brain Elevate from Now Foods got a lot of stuff in it: Huperzine A, Ginkgo Biloba, Phosphatidyl Serine, RoseOx, L-Glutamine, choline bitartrate and Gotu Kola.

I prefer to try one thing at a time so I know which is working.

Glad you decided against the Unique Nutrition. Try NOW Food's brand at iherb.



#19 Mr.Bananas

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 08:32 PM

Well are there any _studies_ that concludes that huperzine should _not_ be taken daily?

Zoolander, im not trying to sell anything, i just want to see the study that says "huperzine is bad to take daily".

Bump
Enough with the accusations already, lets get back to topic.

#20 Ben

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 02:21 AM

Nah, Brain Elevate from Now Foods got a lot of stuff in it: Huperzine A, Ginkgo Biloba, Phosphatidyl Serine, RoseOx, L-Glutamine, choline bitartrate and Gotu Kola.

I prefer to try one thing at a time so I know which is working.

Glad you decided against the Unique Nutrition. Try NOW Food's brand at iherb.


Wow, I could have sworn that there was a hup. only product. Strange.

@Bananas: Why do we need to bump a day old topic?

#21 zoolander

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 02:43 AM

Source Naturals do a Huperzine product.

To Rags: As far as I know there is nothing wrong with me. If you knew me in real life you would know that I am very conscientious about my health and what I do. I'm not overly concern anymore about what people think of me here. I have a job to do and that is to keep the forums clean from scum. You shouldn't be concerned either if your intent is good.

Mr. Bananas bumping topics is not necessarily promoted here. I would appreciate it if you didn't bump topics.

#22 Rags847

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 05:43 AM

Source Naturals do a Huperzine product.

To Rags: As far as I know there is nothing wrong with me. If you knew me in real life you would know that I am very conscientious about my health and what I do. I'm not overly concern anymore about what people think of me here. I have a job to do and that is to keep the forums clean from scum. You shouldn't be concerned either if your intent is good.

Mr. Bananas bumping topics is not necessarily promoted here. I would appreciate it if you didn't bump topics.


Ha! zoolander, no I was just adding a light-heartedness like you were when you phased your warnings as "say bye bye to Kansas". Like I said, I appreciate this place immensely and the work the higher-ups do to keep this place at a high level. I read the past sagas concerning Unique Nutrition and Adam Kamil on here and I definitely like a site free of that confusion and distraction. I think your a top-notch dude. And I know my intent is good. I'm fascinated by enhancement (I have some extreme academic challenges coming up) and balance it out with a concern and judiciousness about routes I take to help me achieve my goals.
My only concern on this particular thread was that a newbie without much knowledge, yet, was about to start out supplementing with a choline donor AND a cholinesterase inhibitor at the same time. Too much. I have no experience with Huperzine A, though I will be watching the current FDA trail results carefully (very exciting). But, in general, the breakdown and regulating aspects of the brain are very important and right now I feel more comfortable with suppling myself with choline and letting my regulating systems break it down if I have too much and then breakdown ACh further while I sleep to facilitated memory consolidation (as the study I posted suggests is the natural mechanism).

Edited by Rags847, 23 July 2008 - 05:48 AM.


#23 Mr.Bananas

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 10:49 AM

Source Naturals do a Huperzine product.

To Rags: As far as I know there is nothing wrong with me. If you knew me in real life you would know that I am very conscientious about my health and what I do. I'm not overly concern anymore about what people think of me here. I have a job to do and that is to keep the forums clean from scum. You shouldn't be concerned either if your intent is good.

Mr. Bananas bumping topics is not necessarily promoted here. I would appreciate it if you didn't bump topics.

If i broke a rule im sorry, but my intention was to get a straight answer, i have in fact never seen anyone prove with a study that its dangerous to use huperzine daily, and hearing people say that its bad for you without support is like saying that candy is good if you have cancer, or what anything ridiculous like that. Let me be clear about one thing, i am not trying to make newcommers do stupid things and say "its ok to use huperzine daily" because i cant prove it, see? I dont know if huperzine is safe to use daily, so i dont, i just take it occasionally. Spreading (dis)information like this without citing research is something i dont agree with.

#24 zoolander

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 01:15 PM

Rags there's obviously a comms breakdown here because we're both being sarcastic and dry. I know that you were only joking and hence I played along with it. If I wasn't pulling your leg back I would have just left it.

:)

Mr. Bananas you'll get use to the tom foolery around here.

Perhaps you can use this to help you find the gems (now now don't get carried away orangeray21) in the sand

Posted Image

Edited by zoolander, 23 July 2008 - 01:20 PM.


#25 Standy

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 10:46 PM

I came across an interesting article about the daily acetylcholine cycle.
http://www.pnas.org/content/101/7/1795.full

I' m no expert but would this mean that choline is superior to huperzine as huperzine would interfere with the acetylcholine cycle? I would like to get a second opinion though.

#26 Rags847

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 12:34 AM

I came across an interesting article about the daily acetylcholine cycle.
http://www.pnas.org/content/101/7/1795.full

I' m no expert but would this mean that choline is superior to huperzine as huperzine would interfere with the acetylcholine cycle? I would like to get a second opinion though.

Excellent article on memory consolidation and ACh. Thanks, Standy.
It is a 2004 article, I wonder what the last 4 years of research on memory consolidation has shown.
As far as using a choline-booster vs a choline breakdown inhibitor, I'm interested in the answer to that question as well. If one has a lot of ACh during the day from a choline-donator would the breakdown mechanism work harder to break it down and lower levels for during sleep or would they remain high overnight? If one used a cholinesterase inhibitor how high would one's ACh levels chonically be overnight? Huperzine A is described as potent and selective and what concerns me is this line from the recent FDA study below ("Gradual recovery of AChE activity then occurs, but even 48h after the last dose red blood cell AChE was about 10% below control (pre-dose) values."). So, it is long acting and ACh levels are still higher than baseline levels even two days after the dose.
Concerning? Or would ACh levels still be higher than baseline two days after dosing with CDP-Choline, say? Anyone know of any studies showing how long the effect of a choline-donor lasts? It is great to have ACh and more working memory, but wouldn't be at all great if what I read and learned during the day wasn't being processed into long-term memory as effectively overnight.
LTM is where it is at, baby!

A very recent study here (part of the FDA's clinical trial of Huperzine A):

1: Chem Biol Interact. 2008 May 3. [Epub ahead of print]Posted Image <script language="JavaScript1.2">Links
Protection of red blood cell acetylcholinesterase by oral huperzine A against ex vivo soman exposure: Next generation prophylaxis and sequestering of acetylcholinesterase over butyrylcholinesterase.
Haigh JR, Johnston SR, Peppernay A, Mattern PJ, Garcia GE, Doctor BP, Gordon RK, Aisen PS. Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, Division of Biochemistry, 503 Robert Grant Road, Silver Spring, MD 20910-7500, USA.

As part of a phase Ib clinical trial to determine the tolerability and safety of the highly specific acetylcholinesterase (AChE) inhibitor huperzine A, twelve (12) healthy elderly individuals received an escalating dose regimen of huperzine A (100, 200, 300, and 400mug doses, twice daily for a week at each dose), with three (3) individuals as controls receiving a placebo. Using the WRAIR whole blood cholinesterase assay, red blood cell AChE and plasma butyrylcholinesterase (BChE) were measured in unprocessed whole blood samples from the volunteers following each dose, and then for up to 48h following the final and highest (400mug) dose to monitor the profile of inhibition and recovery of AChE. Significant inhibition of AChE was observed, ranging from 30-40% after 100mug to >50% at 400mug, and peaking 1.5h after the last dose. Gradual recovery of AChE activity then occurs, but even 48h after the last dose red blood cell AChE was about 10% below control (pre-dose) values. Huperzine A levels in plasma peaked 1.5h after the final 400mug dose (5.47+/-2.15ng/mL). Plasma BChE was unaffected by huperzine A treatment (as expected). Aliquots of huperzine A-containing (from three individuals) and placebo blood samples were exposed ex vivo to the irreversible nerve agent soman (GD) for 10min, followed by removal of unbound huperzine and soman from the blood by passing through a small C(18) reverse phase spin column. Eluted blood was diluted in buffer, and aliquots taken at various time intervals for AChE and BChE activity measurement to determine the time taken to achieve full return in activity of the free enzyme (dissociation from the active site of AChE by huperzine A), and thus the proportion of AChE that can be protected from soman exposure. Huperzine A-inhibited red blood cell (RBC) AChE activity was restored almost to the level that was initially inhibited by the drug. The increased doses of huperzine A used were well tolerated by these patients and in this ex vivo study sequestered more red blood cell AChE than has been previously demonstrated for pyridostigmine bromide (PB), indicating the potential improved prophylaxis against organophosphate (OP) poisoning.

PMID: 18572153 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher].

Edited by Rags847, 29 July 2008 - 12:37 AM.


#27 Standy

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 02:00 AM

Another interesting article:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14766981

“In this study, increasing central nervous cholinergic activation during SWS-rich sleep by posttrial infusion of 0.75 mg of the cholinesterase inhibitor physostigmine completely blocked SWS-related consolidation of declarative memories for word pairs in human subjects”


I've read that the body releases a cholinergic enzyme during sleep but I cant find an article to confirm it.

#28 john16

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 11:00 PM

Zoolander, I ordered Unique Nutrition brand of Huperzine and a couple of days later I found out about the LifeMirage issue on this forum. That's why I started asking questions about Huperzine because I felt that I may have ordered the wrong brand.



Glad you decided against the Unique Nutrition. Try NOW Food's brand at iherb.


:O whats wrong with Unique Nutrition's L-Huperzine A??....I just bought 200mcg 60 caps from them!!!!!!

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#29 Ben

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Posted 03 October 2008 - 02:58 AM

Zoolander, I ordered Unique Nutrition brand of Huperzine and a couple of days later I found out about the LifeMirage issue on this forum. That's why I started asking questions about Huperzine because I felt that I may have ordered the wrong brand.



Glad you decided against the Unique Nutrition. Try NOW Food's brand at iherb.


:O whats wrong with Unique Nutrition's L-Huperzine A??....I just bought 200mcg 60 caps from them!!!!!!


haha, do a search on them in this forum. There's enough there, in my mind, to never buy from them. With health supplements I believe you need to be able to trust the source you are purchasing from.

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