8 replies to this topic

[Rags847]

Anyone know the science behind D-Amphetamines and Piracetam/CDP-Choline and any theories on the results likely to incur from taking these substances together?


Any other studies even better than this 1991 abstract below?

1: Acta Physiol Pharmacol Bulg. 1991;17(4):17-26.<script language="JavaScript1.2">Links
Modulation of the effects on learning and memory of nootropic drugs and central stimulants when applied together.
Petkov VD, Konstantinova E, Petkov VV, Lazarova M, Petkova B. Institute of Physiology, Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Sofia.

In experiments on rats using passive avoidance with punishment reinforcement (step-through) and two-way active avoidance with punishment reinforcement (shuttle-box), we examined the effects on acquisition and retention of different combinations of the nootropic drugs meclofenoxate (Mf), citicholine (CCh), piracetam (Pc), the structural analogues of aniracetam p-P and p-F, standardized extract from ginseng roots (PG) and the psychostimulants caffeine (Caf) and amphetamine (Amph). Favorable effects (more pronounced improvement of learning and/or memory as compared to that caused by the drugs when given alone) were in some cases obtained by the combination Mf+Caf, Pc+Caf, CCh+Caf, p-F+Caf, Mf+CCh, as well as by the combination Mf+PG applied to rats with electroconvulsive shock-induced amnesia. However, in some cases the combined administration of two drugs with favorable effects on memory did not led to summation or potentiation but rather to disappearance of these effects. This was observed under certain experimental conditions with some combinations of Caf and CCh, Mf, Pc and p-P and with some combinations of Amph and Mf. Based on our earlier results and data in the literature, we present some considerations about the role of the neurotransmitter mechanisms of action of the drugs tested as neurochemical correlates of their effects on memory. It is suggested that the unfavorable results obtained in some cases with combinations of nootropics and psychostimulants are due to the possible disturbance of selective acquisition by the psychostimulant drug.

Edited by Rags847, 25 July 2008 - 04:36 AM.

[Rags847]

Any agreement/disagreement with this post by Sirah?
http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=243069

"My own reading and subsequent personal take on this is that speed should be approached with caution. both isomers of amphetmaine are toxic - harmful if ingested or even left on skin. Neurotoxic- in that unlike ritalin which blocks dopamine reuptake, it promotes efflux in the dopa transporter, this depletes DA tissue content (seen far more rapidly in users of methamphetamine). Take in small amounts and leave large holidays. Ritalin has to produce far greater electric signalling in the brain in order to exert its stimulatory effect which is why its 'crashes' can seem unfairly brutal as well as its tendency to induce anxiety and antisocial behaviour. Given the choice though, your brain would take the R hands down."

Edited by Rags847, 25 July 2008 - 04:38 AM.

[bgwithadd]

I take amphetamines all the time. They are the safest and most trustworthy prescription drugs out there as far as I am concerned.

Talking about neurotoxicity is completely ridiculous because no sane doctor would EVER proscribe any drug at levels remotely nearing toxic. Unfortunately, they do require one thing most people lack: COMMON SENSE. Loss of appetite will get you sometimes, but the real killer is that you lose your THIRST. So you have to force down drinks all day long andmake sure you don't go til 5pm without eating (and if you have need of these drugs then this is the kind of thing you do anyhow). So yes, a couple caveats and drug holidays are very reccomended, but the drugs themselves are harmless compared to even SSRIs let alone antipsychotics and benzos, IMO at least. If you are taking as prescribed and have a lick of common sense you should never have any issues with them unless you are int he unlucky few who can't tolerate them, and in that case you will know it right away.

The racetams have a method of action completely unrelated to amphetamines. I do both of them. The only supplementing to be wary of using amphetamines is things that change ph balance in the gut (changes absorption) and things that are precursors to neurotransmitters - mainly norepinephrine or dopamine.

[graatch]

I take 500mg citicoline, sometimes more, twice daily with my d-amphetamine. It works quite well.

I believe the evidence is against neurotoxicity at therapeutic dosing ranges of d-amphetamine, but if you are concerned about neurotoxicity from d-amphetamine at therapeutic dosing, then citicoline is all the better, as it has a very strong body of research showing it to be a remarkable neuroprotective agent against numerous forms of brain insult.

One thing is that citicoline seems acidic, which could both reduce absorption of amphetamine (and many other amines) from the stomach and speed up excretion through the kidney. It very noticeably, I think, caused my doses to wear off hours faster. I now buffer my citicoline doses with 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda, and no longer have that problem at all.

Edited by graatch, 19 August 2008 - 01:28 AM.

[Rags847]

Thanks for the earlier replies to this thread.

Since I am starting this week to try stimulants and nootropics at the same time (always did trails of one or the other in the past) I'm interested if anyone else has had experience with this dual-administration or any related commentary.

I'm taking dextroamphetamine and piracetam/cdp-choline.

Plan on cutting the dose of one or the other since certain effects may be potentiated.
One concern is increased bloodflow to the brain. D-Amp increased overall BP and piracetam increases bloodflow to the brain.

My hope, of course, is to obtain the positive effects of each.

Enhancement of:

• Energy in body and brain (with resulting focus/concentration) [D-Amp]

• Mood elevation [D-Amp]

• Thinking/Various intellectual functions [Piracteam/CDP-Choline]

• Feeling/Sense-receptivity/Creativity [Piracteam/CDP-Choline]

[Rags847]

Tomorrow I'm going to try medium to high piracetam/cdp-choline dosing and cutting my dextro down (from 20-30mg/day to 5mg twice a day). Piracetam enhances and stimulates to a degree and a small dextro boost may be just what is needed to push piracetam's intellectual and creative effects outward and with a lower dose of dextro I can avoid over-potentiation from mixing the two and the PNS overstimulation (pounding heart, etc) dextro often brings.

[graatch]

It's odd that the abstract you linked to, if I'm reading it right (honestly it seems almost willfully obscurantist), doesn't actually present the results of a citicoline/amphetamine or amphetamine/citicoline combination either way.

I talked a bit about the effects I get from citicoline in your Choline Precursors thread. Rumination is stimulated ... I'm not sure about creativity or emotion. In a way, maybe. Those qualities are important to me and I have some weird thoughts on them as regards psychostimulants. I don't think it's so clearly definable as e.g. "psychostimulants reduce novel thinking", although this may be true for some people, and some tolerances.

Again I will mention the possible importance of buffering the acidity of the citicoline when using d-amp.

For me, piracetam (whose effects are generally pretty variable from person to person) hasn't done much at a few doses high and low, when I took it with my current memantine/amphetamine regimen, although I haven't tried it for any extended period.

[Hot_Lexxus]

From my personal experience as a long-time d-amph user (judicious use with many holidays and proper NMDA-antagonist supplimentation, thus mild tolerance to even its mood-elevating effects), with my usual regimen:
Generic Multi-vite,
B-Complex,
methyl B12,
B6
High-dose EPA/DHA ~3G
Rhodiola
Bacopa
DMAE
adding CDP-Choline gives me a slightly noticeable "broadening" to my stream of thought, and thus more creativity and less hyperfocus.

The second I add Piracetam to the mix however, I get complete and utter "scatterbrain" and sometimes splitting headaches to the point where I can't get anything done and am definately not liking life.

Anyone else experience this/know why/have suggestions?

[john16]

From my personal experience as a long-time d-amph user (judicious use with many holidays and proper NMDA-antagonist supplimentation, thus mild tolerance to even its mood-elevating effects), with my usual regimen:
Generic Multi-vite,
B-Complex,
methyl B12,
B6
High-dose EPA/DHA ~3G
Rhodiola
Bacopa
DMAE
adding CDP-Choline gives me a slightly noticeable "broadening" to my stream of thought, and thus more creativity and less hyperfocus.

The second I add Piracetam to the mix however, I get complete and utter "scatterbrain" and sometimes splitting headaches to the point where I can't get anything done and am definately not liking life.

Anyone else experience this/know why/have suggestions?

wow, even with the CDP-Choline. I usually thought that adding CDP-Choline to your stack would allieviate those side-effects...