22 replies to this topic

[Rags847]

There must be 10 pages of threads in the Nootropic section just on choline precursors (which ones to take, in what amounts, comparing different ones, etc). It gets redunant. Put all your choline wisdom here.

Some choline info below.

Off of Wikipedia:

"Choline is an organic compound, classified as a water-soluble essential nutrient^[1][2][3] and usually grouped within the Vitamin B complex. This natural amine is found in the lipids that make up cell membranes and in the neurotransmitter acetylcholine. Adequate intakes (AI) for this micronutrient of between 425 to 550 milligrams daily, for adults, have been established by the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences.

The foods richest in phosphatidylcholine — the major delivery form of choline — are egg yolks, soy and cooked beef, chicken, veal and turkey livers. Many foods contain trace amounts of free choline, even iceberg lettuce. To what extent these trace forms are usable by human digestion is still debated. In 2004, the USDA released its first database of the choline content in common foods.^[6]"


USDA Database for the Choline Content of Common Foods, Release 2 (2008) here:
http://www.ars.usda.....htm?docid=6232


Thorough article on CDP-Choline and GPC-Choline:
http://www.delano.co...GPC-Sharpe.html


Article on CDP-Choline:
http://aor.ca/int/ma...rain_health.pdf


Excellent pubmed abstract reviewing the literature on the multifaceted benefits and safety profile of Citicoline (CDP-Choline):
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ov/sites/entrez
Citicoline: pharmacological and clinical review, 2006 update.


A reason to not take choline precursors at night:
Slow-wave sleep, acetylcholine, and memory consolidation
http://www.pnas.org/...101/7/1795.full




Vaious choline precursors:

Choline (choline bitartrate, choline citrate, and choline chloride)
Lecithin (dietary PC, typically derived from eggs or soy)
DMEA
Phosphatidylserine (PS)
CDP-Choline
Alpha GPC
Centrophenoxine




[Master Thread Series: Instead of good information spread out here and there in now over 84 pages of threads, how about Master Threads where all discussion under a certain topic could go and develop? This would cut down on the repetitiveness of the same questions being asked over and over and make it easier to discover useful information.]

Edited by zoolander, 10 August 2008 - 10:44 PM.

[brotherx]

Hi Rags,

thanks for the links - quite helpful!

Cheers

Alex

There must be 10 pages of threads in the Nootropic section just on choline precursors (which ones to take, in what amounts, comparing different ones, etc). It gets redunant. Put all your choline wisdom here.

Some choline info below.

Off of Wikipedia:

"Choline is an organic compound, classified as a water-soluble essential nutrient^[1][2][3] and usually grouped within the Vitamin B complex. This natural amine is found in the lipids that make up cell membranes and in the neurotransmitter acetylcholine. Adequate intakes (AI) for this micronutrient of between 425 to 550 milligrams daily, for adults, have been established by the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences.

The foods richest in phosphatidylcholine — the major delivery form of choline — are egg yolks, soy and cooked beef, chicken, veal and turkey livers. Many foods contain trace amounts of free choline, even iceberg lettuce. To what extent these trace forms are usable by human digestion is still debated. In 2004, the USDA released its first database of the choline content in common foods.^[6]"


USDA Database for the Choline Content of Common Foods, Release 2 (2008) here:
http://www.ars.usda.....htm?docid=6232


Thorough article on CDP-Choline and GPC-Choline:
http://www.delano.co...GPC-Sharpe.html


Article on CDP-Choline:
http://aor.ca/int/ma...rain_health.pdf


Excellent pubmed abstract reviewing the literature on the multifaceted benefits and safety profile of Citicoline (CDP-Choline):
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ov/sites/entrez
Citicoline: pharmacological and clinical review, 2006 update.


A reason to not take choline precursors at night:
Slow-wave sleep, acetylcholine, and memory consolidation
http://www.pnas.org/...101/7/1795.full




Vaious choline precursors:

Choline (choline bitartrate, choline citrate, and choline chloride)
Lecithin (dietary PC, typically derived from eggs or soy)
DMEA
Phosphatidylserine (PS)
CDP-Choline
Alpha GPC
Centrophenoxine




[Master Thread Series: Instead of good information spread out here and there in now over 84 pages of threads, how about Master Threads where all discussion under a certain topic could go and develop? This would cut down on the repetitiveness of the same questions being asked over and over and make it easier to discover useful information.]

[Advanc3d]

well a lot of people recomend taking DMAE before sleep because its a slow releasing choline.
i been taking it before sleep and in the morning for 10 months now

[salamandyr]

i have a related question - CDP-choline versus Centrophenoxine.
i'm taking one of each per day right now, with Piracetam, and they seem to "feel" about the same.

to validate my "feel" - w/o choline i get a slight headache from Piracetam, almost every time.

[brotherx]

Maybe this is one reason for your sleep issues?

Cheers

Alex

well a lot of people recomend taking DMAE before sleep because its a slow releasing choline.
i been taking it before sleep and in the morning for 10 months now

[brotherx]

So what is you related question? ;-)

i have a related question - CDP-choline versus Centrophenoxine.
i'm taking one of each per day right now, with Piracetam, and they seem to "feel" about the same.

to validate my "feel" - w/o choline i get a slight headache from Piracetam, almost every time.

[graatch]

I take citicoline, 500-1000mg in the morning and 500mg 6 hours later. It rocks. Certainly, personally, my favorite out of the cholinergics I've tried. Taking it later in the day very noticeably messes up my sleep, both induction and quality.

I notice a very substantial increase in rumination and thought "intensity", loops and threads of cognition, if you will.

It is very helpful if I am focused to direct it, as I now am, successfully medicated with memantine and dextroamphetamine. Previously, in my inattentive depressed state, it was perhaps not so helpful, even depressiogenic if the intense thought process ended up being applied to unpleasant feelings. If you will. Speaking of consciousness here ... it requires some metaphor. ;-)

Although, citicoline was less problematic in that way than choline citrate or galantamine was. I never noticed much effect from alpha-GPC, personally.

But yeah, now very helpful. The intensified thought-process is applied to deepening my understanding, everything thinking is good for, yadda yadda.

I also notice an increased desire for nicotine. This is not problematic for me (besides cost), as I use nicotine lozenges and enjoy them as a neuroprotective supplement.

well a lot of people recomend taking DMAE before sleep because its a slow releasing choline.
i been taking it before sleep and in the morning for 10 months now

I agree with brotherx, you probably should not do that. See the abstract linked to in Rags847's post -- "A reason to not take choline precursors at night" for an example.

[hamishm00]

I've come to the conclusion that centrophenoxine is the best choline supplement available at the moment. The fact that it can be bought in bulk quite easily (as opposed to CDP choline) is quite attractive. Alpha GPC is still relatively untested in clinical trials involving humans, so I'll pass for now.

Centrophenoxine also improves skin elasticity which I just found out recently.

[graatch]

^^Good point about the expense of citicoline compared to bulk centrophenoxine. One thing in citicoline's favor I think is the extraordinarily rich (for a supplement) profile of neuroprotection against a wide variety of neurotoxic insults, including some human trials, these also including lots of good info about pharmokinetics, blood concentration curve and duration, etc. Whereas with centrophenoxine, the effect on lipofuscin is quite interesting but I think much more in the realm of theory with regards to brain health (I can talk about that weird things like that here right, this is imminst ), without human trials for neuroprotection as far as I know, yadda yadda.

Your experience and salamandyr's however, finding the effect equivalent, makes me want to give it a try so perhaps I shall.

[hamishm00]

^^Good point about the expense of citicoline compared to bulk centrophenoxine. One thing in citicoline's favor I think is the extraordinarily rich (for a supplement) profile of neuroprotection against a wide variety of neurotoxic insults, including some human trials, these also including lots of good info about pharmokinetics, blood concentration curve and duration, etc. Whereas with centrophenoxine, the effect on lipofuscin is quite interesting but I think much more in the realm of theory with regards to brain health (I can talk about that weird things like that here right, this is imminst ), without human trials for neuroprotection as far as I know, yadda yadda.

Your experience and salamandyr's however, finding the effect equivalent, makes me want to give it a try so perhaps I shall.

Don't get me wrong, I love CDP Choline, and have been off the Centro for a while now and experimenting with the CDP. I've also gone the lecithin + b5 route for a while before. CDP Choline is just pricey, although I just bought an order in for 240 caps of it he he. I am probably going to switch to bulk centro going forwards.

[brotherx]

What differences are you experience with the intake of CDP Choline or Centro?
How much CDP-Choline do you take? How much Centro have you taken?

Cheers

Alex

^^Good point about the expense of citicoline compared to bulk centrophenoxine. One thing in citicoline's favor I think is the extraordinarily rich (for a supplement) profile of neuroprotection against a wide variety of neurotoxic insults, including some human trials, these also including lots of good info about pharmokinetics, blood concentration curve and duration, etc. Whereas with centrophenoxine, the effect on lipofuscin is quite interesting but I think much more in the realm of theory with regards to brain health (I can talk about that weird things like that here right, this is imminst ), without human trials for neuroprotection as far as I know, yadda yadda.

Your experience and salamandyr's however, finding the effect equivalent, makes me want to give it a try so perhaps I shall.

Don't get me wrong, I love CDP Choline, and have been off the Centro for a while now and experimenting with the CDP. I've also gone the lecithin + b5 route for a while before. CDP Choline is just pricey, although I just bought an order in for 240 caps of it he he. I am probably going to switch to bulk centro going forwards.

[salamandyr]

Maybe this is one reason for your sleep issues?

Cheers

Alex

well a lot of people recomend taking DMAE before sleep because its a slow releasing choline.
i been taking it before sleep and in the morning for 10 months now

hehe, sorry - didn't explicitly ask it. the question was:
is citicholine or centro preferable for some reason, since they both seem to work the same, for me?

i take 250 of Centro with 2400mg Piracetam in the am, and 250 of CDP-choline with 1600mg of Piracetam in the PM... i only notice the lack of it if i don't take it; taking either eliminates any headache i get from Pira.

[hamishm00]

What differences are you experience with the intake of CDP Choline or Centro?
How much CDP-Choline do you take? How much Centro have you taken?

Cheers

Alex

My dosages were 500mg centro with 1500 piracetam and 800mg oxiracetam and quite often another 800mg aniracetam.
Similarly dosages were 500mg CDP with each racetam stack
Lecithin I would go for 2-4 grams of lecithin with a slow release b5 (500mg usually sometimes 1000mg).
500mg of Choline with each stack provided a slight increase in neck and jaw tension, but nothing I couldn't live with / counteract somewhat with stretching/massage. This was before I added Rhodiola Rosea to the stack, which seems to reduce tension significantly in me.

The CDP is, in my experience, clearly superior to the Lecithin, so much so that I wonder if the Lecithin does any good at all, as I don't usually get headaches or serious brain fog if I take piracetam without a choline source, although I haven't pushed myself too far in this direction as I usually always supplement with some acetylcholine precursor. CDP choline gives you faster reaction times (I've tried to test this, and with a full cdp/pira/oxi stack I can hit 180ms benchmarks, as opposed to 220ms without). CDP choline makes you feel sharp, more awake, more aware and more focussed. It's subtle, but noticeable.

CDP vs Centro? no major difference, both brilliant, except if I was to differentiate I reckon centro supplementation provides better 'visual' accuity/lucidity, but I it's entirely possible that it's my imagination.

Edited by hamishm00, 18 September 2008 - 09:52 AM.

[brotherx]

Thanks for your answer!
So are you going for the Centro - or for the CDP-Choline in the future?

Cheers

Alex

What differences are you experience with the intake of CDP Choline or Centro?
How much CDP-Choline do you take? How much Centro have you taken?

Cheers

Alex

My dosages were 500mg centro with 1500 piracetam and 800mg oxiracetam and quite often another 800mg aniracetam.
Similarly dosages were 500mg CDP with each racetam stack
Lecithin I would go for 2-4 grams of lecithin with a slow release b5 (500mg usually sometimes 1000mg).
500mg of Choline with each stack provided a slight increase in neck and jaw tension, but nothing I couldn't live with / counteract somewhat with stretching/massage. This was before I added Rhodiola Rosea to the stack, which seems to reduce tension significantly in me.

The CDP is, in my experience, clearly superior to the Lecithin, so much so that I wonder if the Lecithin does any good at all, as I don't usually get headaches or serious brain fog if I take piracetam without a choline source, although I haven't pushed myself too far in this direction as I usually always supplement with some acetylcholine precursor. CDP choline gives you faster reaction times (I've tried to test this, and with a full cdp/pira/oxi stack I can hit 180ms benchmarks, as opposed to 220ms without). CDP choline makes you feel sharp, more awake, more aware and more focussed. It's subtle, but noticeable.

CDP vs Centro? no major difference, both brilliant, except if I was to differentiate I reckon centro supplementation provides better 'visual' accuity/lucidity, but I it's entirely possible that it's my imagination.

[hamishm00]

Centro!

Makes sense, both price-wise and from the positive experiences I've had with it!

[Rags847]

Article on CDP-Choline:
http://aor.ca/int/ma...rain_health.pdf

This link has changed.

Go to http://aor.ca/html/magazines.php

Look under

Winter 2004

• PS is Passé: Citicoline: The New Phospholipid Prescription

http://aor.ca/assets/Research/pdf/Advances6_PS_is_Passe_Citicoline_new_phospholipid_for_brain_health.pdf

[luv2increase]

is citicholine or centro preferable for some reason, since they both seem to work the same, for me?

There is a huge advantage to take centrophenoxine a.k.a. meclofenoxate over CDP-choline a.k.a. citicoline!

What is this advantage you may ask? Well, the absolutely fabulous drug centrophenoxine is an anti-lipofusin drug. You see, as your brain ages, your brain cells acquire dark, age-related deposits (junk) called lipofuscin. To keep your brain young, you want to keep your lipofuscin level low.




http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

Age-related decline in multiple unit action potentials of cerebral cortex correlates with the number of lipofuscin-containing neurons.
Sharma D, Singh R.

Neurobiology Laboratory, School of Life Sciences, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi, India.

The present study examined whether there is any obvious correlation between the density of lipofuscin-containing neurons and the spontaneous neuronal action potentials (Multiple Unit Activity, MUA) in the parietal cortex of the aging rat brain. The results showed that MUA counts were decreased with age while the number of lipofuscin-containing neurons was increased. The cortex with the highest percentage of lipofuscin-containing neurons had the lowest MUA counts while the cortex with the lowest percentage of lipofuscin-containing neurons had the highest MUA counts. The inverse correlation between MUA and lipofuscin-containing neuron number was also evident when the population of the lipofuscin-containing neurons was pharmacologically altered in vivo by the administration of anti-lipofuscin drug centrophenoxine. The inverse relationship between MUA and the lipofuscin-containing neuron numbers is consistent with: (i) the correlations of MUA with age-related changes in lipid peroxidation and biochemically measured lipofuscin concentration, and (ii) the oxidative stress-induced impairments of neuronal electrophysiology.

PMID: 8979484 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

Brain lipofuscinolysis and ceroidolysis--to be or not to be.
Riga D, Riga S.

Institute of Neurology and Psychiatry, Bucharest, Romania.

Lipofuscin pigment (LP) accumulations and ceroid pigment (CP) storages were demonstrated by multiple consensus studies. On the contrary, fewer researches, sometimes with opposite conclusions were made on brain LP and CP decrease, dissolution and elimination. Neuroactive agents (such as Meclofenoxate, Orotic acid, Antagonic-Stress, Piracetam, L-Deprenyl, Geriforte) generate LP and CP decrease and dissolution by cytoplasm rehydration, optimization of the brain cellular recycling system activities, by neuronal, glial and capillary LP lysis and CP lysis, by neurono-glio-endothelial transfer of highly processed LP and CP, with final capillary elimination. Therefore, these nootropic drugs may become therapeutical solutions in brain aging deceleration, in CP inductive circumstances and in age-associated diseases.

PMID: 8821338 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

This doesn't just remove nasty lipofuscin from your brain, but it removes lipofuscin from your entire body. As you age, your whole body acquires these horrid cellular waste deposits!
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

Lipofuscin accumulation in ageing myocardium & its removal by meclophenoxate.
Patro N, Sharma SP, Patro IK.

Department of Zoology, Kurukshetra University.

A study was undertaken on the age-associated histochemical changes in the ventricular myocardium and the influence of meclophenoxate hydrochloride (MPH) on the age pigment lipofuscin. Sixty Wistar albino rats in three age-groups (3, 15 and 30 months old) were treated with meclophenoxate hydrochloride (100 mg/kg body wt/day, ip) for a period of 2-8 wk. Five animals each from the three age-groups served as controls. Various histochemical and micromorphometric studies were carried out on the myocardial tissue. A linear increase in the myocardial volume occupied by the pigment was observed with advancing age. As a result of meclophenoxate treatment, a gradual decrease in the myocardial volume occupied by the pigment was noted. After 4-6 wk treatment, the pigment bodies were found lodged into the capillary endothelium and the lumen, facilitating the removal of the pigment via blood stream. Histochemical and micromorphometric analyses of ventricular myocardium of albino rats have shown thus that deposition of the age-pigment, lipofuscin, can be accepted as an index of cellular ageing.

PMID: 1512044 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I can't believe I've thus failed to mention that centrophenoxine enhances your brain anti-oxidant systems within your brain! How could I have?
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

Effect of centrophenoxine on the antioxidative enzymes in various regions of the aging rat brain.
Roy D, Pathak DN, Singh R.

This study investigated the effect (in vivo) of centrophenoxine (Helfergin) on the activity of antioxidant enzymes (glutathione peroxidase GSH-PER, glutathione reductase GSSG-RED, superoxide dismutase SOD and catalase) in subcellular fractions from the regions of the brain (cerebrum, cerebellum and brain stem) of rats aged 6, 9 and 12 months. In all age groups, normal (control) activity of GSH-PER, GSSG-RED and SOD in the three brain regions was higher in the soluble fractions than in the particulate fractions. The three regions of the brain showed different levels of the enzyme activities. Enzymes in soluble fractions (except GSSG-RED in cerebrum of rats aged 12 months) did not change with age. In particulate fractions, however, the enzymes showed age-related changes: GSH-PER decreased with age in cerebellum and brain stem, but showed an age-related increase in cerebrum, GSSG-RED and SOD increased with age in all the three brain regions. Catalase activity in all the three brain regions remained unchanged in all age groups. Six week administration of centrophenoxine (once a day in doses of 80 mg/Kg and 120 mg/Kg) to the experimental animals produced increases in the activity of SOD, GSH-PER and GSSG-RED in particulate fractions from all the three brain regions. In the soluble fractions, however, only SOD and GSH-PER activity was increased. In vitro also centrophenoxine stimulated the activity of GSH-PER. A dosage of 80 mg/Kg produced greater changes than a 120 mg/Kg dosage. The drug had no effect on the activity of catalase. Centrophenoxine also reduced lipofuscin deposits (studied both biochemically and histochemically) thus indicating that the drug inhibited lipofuscin accumulation by elevating the activity of the antioxidant enzymes. The data suggest that alleviation of senescence by centrophenoxine may, at least, partly be due to activation by it of antioxidant enzymes.

PMID: 6416880 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

There are many many many more studies on pubmed. I suggest you search for more.

You will also notice that there are no, I repeat no negative studies on centrophenoxine out there! Do your brain and body a favor and get on some centro today!

[twist1]

Can someone recommend a safe and/or cost-effective centro source ? Or PM it ?

Edited by twist1, 02 October 2008 - 06:34 AM.

[salamandyr]

Can someone recommend a safe and/or cost-effective centro source ? Or PM it ?

i get mine from RelentlessImprovement.com
it's not the cheapest, but i trust their testing, and it's not terribly expensive.

[taohansen]

Bought mine at nubrain. Extraordinarily speedy delivery. Highly recommended.

[BioFreak]

USDA Database for the Choline Content of Common Foods, Release 2 (2008) here:
http://www.ars.usda.....htm?docid=6232


Thorough article on CDP-Choline and GPC-Choline:
http://www.delano.co...GPC-Sharpe.html


Article on CDP-Choline:
http://aor.ca/int/ma...rain_health.pdf


Excellent pubmed abstract reviewing the literature on the multifaceted benefits and safety profile of Citicoline (CDP-Choline):
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ov/sites/entrez
Citicoline: pharmacological and clinical review, 2006 update.


A reason to not take choline precursors at night:
Slow-wave sleep, acetylcholine, and memory consolidation
http://www.pnas.org/...101/7/1795.full




Vaious choline precursors:

Choline (choline bitartrate, choline citrate, and choline chloride)
Lecithin (dietary PC, typically derived from eggs or soy)
DMEA
Phosphatidylserine (PS)
CDP-Choline
Alpha GPC
Centrophenoxine




[Master Thread Series: Instead of good information spread out here and there in now over 84 pages of threads, how about Master Threads where all discussion under a certain topic could go and develop? This would cut down on the repetitiveness of the same questions being asked over and over and make it easier to discover useful information.]

Most of the links don't work anymore - anyone got working ones?

[JoSho]

I take phosphatidyl choline- derived from lecithin , along with , kelp,L-theanine,Gaba,bacopa,skull cap,eleuthero,lavender,folic acid,b12,. hyperzine A-400mg,,,phosphatidy serine,,,,ginko 120mg,,,topped with omegas,,,( magnesium citrate at nite)
Is this source pure or should i start using Acetyl choline ?? (Acetyl is expensive)

Thanks
Josho

Edited by JoSho, 29 April 2013 - 04:42 AM.

[noot_in_the_sky]

Most of the links don't work anymore - anyone got working ones?

Here are some working links, I also uploaded a more recent version of the first article.

Citicoline: pharmacological and clinical review, 2006 update.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/17171187

Article on CDP-Choline:
http://web.archive.o...rain_health.pdf

Thorough article on CDP-Choline and GPC-Choline:
http://web.archive.o...GPC-Sharpe.html

Attached Files

•  Citicoline: Pharmacological and Clinical, Review 2010.pdf   1.42MB   1 downloads