90 replies to this topic

[RighteousReason]

Consider this an actively updated document. Please post your suggestions, updates, changes, additions, etc.


My grandma was admitted to the hospital August 19 for cancer surgery. The operation took place Thursday of that week and seemed to go well. However, either during surgery or in recovery she suffered a stroke.

As a result of the stroke, she has had expressive aphasia, meaning she has had difficulty speaking. She initially also had some cognitive issues. In the days since the surgery, she has been recovering slowly but steadily from both the operation and the stroke. We did learn last week that one of 12 lymph nodes that were tested came back positive and she will have to have radiation treatment for this.

Our immediate concern, though, has been dealing with the stroke.

read more of her story here.

...

So it's been a couple months now and she has improved dramatically in her recovery from the stroke, though not fully.

We now must attack this cancer, and I need your help.

One thing we are seriously debating is whether to go through with radiation therapy. We are leaning against it. Any advice on this point would be greatly appreciated. (editted: last we have heard, radiation therapy was recommended, not chemo. I think I have convinced involved parties to push her oncology appt. up ASAP)

The second point is creating an anti-cancer regime. edit: apparently she is taking a whole long list of drugs. Because of that, I'm thinking we are going to have to meet with some kind of holistic doctor of some sort in order to figure out what goes with what and what we can do and can't, etc. I dunno anything about doing that but hopefully we can figure that out. I'll try to document here what she is taking and how everything interacts.

I have done a meta-analysis of DukeNukem and TheFirstImmortal. Here is what I have so far:

--- Cancer ---

Radiation therapy:
.................General info
.................Targeted Radiation Therapy is Successful
.................options?

Chemotherapy:
.................info
.................options?

Multi-Vitamins:
.................options?

Anti-Oxidants:
................black raspberries
................................http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080827163933.htm
................................Eclectic Institute Black Raspberry | unknown quality | 90 / 3-8 | 300 mg | $10.53 | link
................................Swanson Black Raspberry | unknown quality | 60 / 1 | 425 mg | $3.99 | link
................................other options?
................................best option?
................green/white Tea
................................LEF Mega Green Tea Extract (Lightly Caffeinated) | unknown quality | 100 / 1 | see link for potency | $28.00 | link
................................Now Foods EGCg Green Tea Extract | unknown quality | 180 / 1-2 | see link for potency | $14.27 | link
................................various
................................best option?
................resveratrol
................................10 mg/kg
................................1g daily (dukenukem)
................................170mg/kg 2-3x daily (missminni)
................................I think five or 6 grams in one dose is the maximum dose that would show increased blood levels. However, it could administered twice or even three times a day to result in higher sustained levels. So 15 grams a day in three divided doses is a possibility, as long as there are no intolerable side effects. I would work up to such a dose for myself, doubling dosage every two days. I do not think such a high dose would be needed for more than a few weeks at most, and that a maintenance dose of a few grams a day will be all that is needed. (maxwatt)
................................LEF Resveratrol | unknown quality | 60 / 4-45? | 250 mg | $34.50 | link
................................Vital Prime Resveratrol | unknown quality | 100 / 1-15 | 1 g | $63 | link
................................Vital Prime Resveratrol | unknown quality | 500 / 1-15 | 1 g | $310 | link
................................other options?
................................best option?
................blueberry
................................LEF Blueberry Extract | unknown quality | 60 / 1 | see link for potency | $22.50 | link
................................other options?
................................best option?
................pomegranate
................................LEF Pomegranate Extract | unknown quality | 30 / 1 | see link for potency | $19.50 | link
................................other options?
................................best option?
................cocoa
................................iHerb Cocoa Bean Extract | unknown quality | 1180 / 20 | see link for potency | $8.39 | link
................................other options?
................................best option?
................Intraveneous vitamin C
................................any ideas?
................................other options?
................................high dose vit C interferes with chemotherapy treatments | link
................tomato (lycopene)
................................Now Foods Lycopene | unknown quality | 50 / 1 | 20 mg | $16.78 | link
................................21st Century Health Care Lycopene | unknown quality | 60 / 1 | 25 mg | $7.99 | link
................................best option?
................apple
................................options?
................others?

Supplements:
................Selenium
................................LEF Super Selenium Complex & Vitamin E | unknown quality | 100 / 1 | 200 mcg | $12.00 | link
................................Healthy Origins Seleno Excell Selenium | unknown quality | 180 / 1 | 200 mcg | $3.68 | link
................................various
................................best option?
................Vitamin D3
................................LEF Vitamin D3 | unknown quality | 250 / 1 | 1000 IU | $12.50 | link
................................Natural Factors Vitamin D3 | unknown quality | 90 / 1 | $5.97 | link
................................various
................................best option?
................IP-6
................................IP-6 is a highly effective metal binder and deprives cancer/tumor cells of iron and copper, two primary growth requirements
................................2-4 grams daily
................................45 minutes away from meals or other supps containing minerals. I'd try to do half early in the day, and half before bed (dukenukem)
................................Jarrow Formulas IP6 Inositol Hexaphosphate | unknown quality | 120 / 1-8 | 500 mg | $7.67 | link
................................various
................................best option?
................Fish oil
................................Jarrow Formulas EPA-DHA Balance | unknown quality | 240 / 2-5 | 420-210 mg | $23.07 | link
................................other options?
................................best option?
................CoQ10 / Ubiquinol
................................is anti-cancer?
................................options?
................Quercetin
................................LEF Quercetin | unknown quality | 100 / 1 | 500mg | $17.95 | link
................................Now Foods Quercetin | unknown quality | 100 / 1 | 500mg | $9.50 | link
................................various
................................best option?
................Melatonin
................................LEF Melatonin | unknown quality | 60 / 1 | 10 mg | $28.00 | link
................................Jarrow Formulas Melatonin Sustain | unknown quality | 120 / 1 | 1 mg | $6.57 | link
................................various
................................best option?
................others?

Combination Formulas:
................options?

Spices:
................Garlic
................................options?
................Curcumin
................................options?
................Turmeric
................................options?
................Capsaicin
................................options?
................Ginger
................................options?
................others?


Dietary and Behavioral Optimization and Other Advice:
................NO DAIRY.
................No sugar, candy, cookies, cake, fruit juice, or other sugary foods.
................................The safest artificial sweetener is saccharine (dukenukem).
................................Stevia is a better sweetener than saccharine (missminni).
................No starches: no rice, bread, potato, or pasta (only raw veggies).
................................Except Ezekiel 4:9® Bread
................No red meat.
................15 minutes of sun per day.
................good fats/oils
................Starved for better chemo
................chronotherapy
................no white egg (methionine=fuel for cancer)
................Reduce stress
................others?

---

--- Stroke (not included above)---

................Low Dose Aspirin
................................options?
................Ginkgo Biloba
................................options?
................Hydergine
................................options?
................Piracetam
................................options?
................others?

---

In addition, I have collected some notes on other points that I haven't reviewed yet. I need some advice on whether these have proven anti-cancer properties and would be worth the effort:
.................high-potency fluoride mouth wash
.................Ave: http://www.avemarusa.com/index.html
.................Lactoferrin mega doses (3 grams daily)
.................I-C-3 mega doses
.................Flax seed lignans
.................Tagamet
.................Boswellia / 5-Loxin
.................Gamma Tocopherol w/Seseame Lignans
.................Grape Seed Extract
.................Phyto-Food (cruciferous vegetable concentrate)
.................Silibinin
.................GLA (gamma-linolenic acid)
.................Silymarin
.................emodin
.................Ellagic acid
.................Metformin
.................St John's Wort extract
.................others?


Non-comprehensive Warnings:
Resveratrol
Cell culture studies suggest that resveratrol is a weak inhibitor of the liver metabolism system P450 3A4, but this interaction is of unknown significance in humans. Ingestion of large amounts of resveratrol may increase blood levels of drugs known to be metabolized via CYP3A4. This would include statins, calcium channel blockers, certain immunosuppressant drugs (e.g. cyclosporine), and drugs for erectile dysfunction (e.g. sildenafil). Caution is advised if used concurrently with anticoagulants or antiplatelet drugs such as Clopidogrel (Plavix).

Curcumin
Do not take curcumin if you have a bile duct obstruction or a history of gallstones. Taking curcumin can stimulate bile production.
Consult your doctor before taking curcumin if you have gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD) or a history of peptic ulcer disease.
Consult your doctor before taking curcumin if you take warfarin or antiplatelet drugs. Curcumin can have antithrombotic activity.
Always take curcumin with food. Curcumin may cause gastric irritation, ulceration, gastritis, and peptic ulcer disease if taken on an empty stomach.
Curcumin can cause gastrointestinal symptoms such as nausea and diarrhea.

EPA/DHA
Consult your doctor before taking EPA/DHA if you take warfarin (Coumadin). Taking EPA/DHA with warfarin may increase the risk of bleeding.
Discontinue using EPA/DHA 2 weeks before any surgical procedure.

Garlic
Garlic has blood-thinning, anticlotting properties.
Discontinue using garlic before any surgical procedure.
Garlic can cause headache, muscle pain, fatigue, vertigo, watery eyes, asthma, and gastrointestinal symptoms such as nausea and diarrhea.
Ingesting large amounts of garlic can cause bad breath and body odor.

Green Tea
Consult your doctor before taking green tea extract if you take aspirin or warfarin (Coumadin). Taking green tea extract and aspirin or warfarin can increase the risk of bleeding.
Discontinue using green tea extract 2 weeks before any surgical procedure. Green tea extract may decrease platelet aggregation.
Green tea extract contains caffeine, which may produce a variety of symptoms including restlessness, nausea, headache, muscle tension, sleep disturbances, and rapid heartbeat.

Vitamin A
Do not take vitamin A if you have hypervitaminosis A.
Do not take vitamin A if you take retinoids or retinoid analogues (such as acitretin, all-trans-retinoic acid, bexarotene, etretinate, and isotretinoin). Vitamin A can add to the toxicity of these drugs.
Do not take large amounts of vitamin A. Taking large amounts of vitamin A may cause acute or chronic toxicity. Early signs and symptoms of chronic toxicity include dry, rough skin; cracked lips; sparse, coarse hair; and loss of hair from the eyebrows. Later signs and symptoms of toxicity include irritability, headache, pseudotumor cerebri (benign intracranial hypertension), elevated serum liver enzymes, reversible noncirrhotic portal high blood pressure, fibrosis and cirrhosis of the liver, and death from liver failure.

Vitamin C
Do not take vitamin C if you have a history of kidney stones or of kidney insufficiency (defined as having a serum creatine level greater than 2 milligrams per deciliter and/or a creatinine clearance less than 30 milliliters per minute.
Consult your doctor before taking large amounts of vitamin C if you have hemochromatosis, thalassemia, sideroblastic anemia, sickle cell anemia, or erythrocyte glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD) deficiency. You can experience iron overload if you have one of these conditions and use large amounts of vitamin C.

Vitamin D
Do not take vitamin D if you have hypercalcemia.
Consult your doctor before taking vitamin D if you are taking digoxin or any cardiac glycoside.
Only take large doses of vitamin D (2000 international units or 50 micrograms or more daily) if prescribed by your doctor.
See your doctor frequently if you take vitamin D and thiazides or if you take large doses of vitamin D. You may develop hypercalcemia.
Chronic large doses (95 micrograms or 3800 international units or more daily) of vitamin D can cause hypercalcemia.

Individuals consuming more than 2,000 IU/day of vitamin D (from diet and supplements) should periodically obtain a serum 25-hydroxy vitamin D measurement. Toxicity is very unlikely in healthy individuals at a dose of less than 10,000 IU. Vitamin D supplementation is contraindicated in individuals with hypercalcemia (high blood calcium levels). People with kidney disease, certain medical conditions (such as hyperparathyroidism, lymphoma, sarcoidosis), and those who use cardiac glycosides (digoxin) or thiazide diurectics should consult a physician before using supplemental vitamin D.


Vitamin E
Consult your doctor before taking vitamin E if you take warfarin (Coumadin).
Consult your doctor before taking high doses of vitamin E if you have a vitamin K deficiency or a history of liver failure.
Consult your doctor before taking vitamin E if you have a history of any bleeding disorder such as peptic ulcers, hemorrhagic stroke, or hemophilia.
Discontinue using vitamin E 1 month before any surgical procedure.

other warnings?


Questions:
................Are there any harmful interactions?
................What am I missing?
................Which are the most important of all the things in this meta-analysis?
................Where can I buy these things in good quality for a low price?
................What is the quantity, frequency, and timing that these things should be taken?
................other questions?


I'm hoping through the combined power of this community we can create a comprehensive cancer fighting information warehouse as an official ImmInst project.

This open-source information warehouse should ideally address everything I've brought up here, and could be kept in a single location and continuously updated for distribution to anybody and everybody who is seriously trying to overcome cancer.

I think this could be a very major achievement for the Immortality Institute.

Anything related to the stroke would also be appreciated- perhaps in addition to a cancer fighting info warehouse we can do one for strokes as well.

Any small piece of individual advice or words of enouragement are of course appreciated.

Thanks.

Edited by Savage, 13 October 2008 - 01:16 AM.

[Dmitri]

My grandma was admitted to the hospital August 19 for cancer surgery. The operation took place Thursday of that week and seemed to go well. However, either during surgery or in recovery she suffered a stroke.

As a result of the stroke, she has had expressive aphasia, meaning she has had difficulty speaking. She initially also had some cognitive issues. In the days since the surgery, she has been recovering slowly but steadily from both the operation and the stroke. We did learn last week that one of 12 lymph nodes that were tested came back positive and she will have to have radiation treatment for this.

Our immediate concern, though, has been dealing with the stroke.

read more of her story here.

...

So it's been a couple months now and she has improved dramatically in her recovery from the stroke, though not fully.

We now must attack this cancer, and I need your help.

One thing we are seriously debating is whether to go through with chemo therapy. We are leaning against it. Any advice on this point would be greatly appreciated.

The second point is creating an anti-cancer regime.

I have done a meta-analysis of DukeNukem and TheFirstImmortal. Here is what I have so far:

Anti-Oxidants:
black raspberries
green/white Tea
resveratrol
blueberry
pomegranate
cocoa
Intraveneous vitamin C
tomato (lycopene)

Supplements:
Selenium
Vitamin D3
IP-6
Fish oil
CoQ10 / Ubiquinol

Spices:
Garlic
Curcumin
Turmeric
Capsaicin

NO DAIRY.
No sugar, candy, cookies, cake, fruit juice, or other sugary foods. The safest artificial sweetener is saccharine.
No starches: no rice, bread, potato, or pasta (only raw veggies).
No red meat.

In addition, I have collected some notes on other points that I haven't reviewed yet. I need some advice on whether these have proven anti-cancer properties and would be worth the effort:
high-potency fluoride mouth wash
Ave: http://www.avemarusa.com/index.html
Lactoferrin mega doses (3 grams daily)
I-C-3 mega doses
Flax seed lignans
Tagamet
Boswellia / 5-Loxin
Gamma Tocopherol w/Seseame Lignans
Grape Seed Extract
Phyto-Food (cruciferous vegetable concentrate)
Melatonin
Silibinin
GLA (gamma-linolenic acid)

Questions:
What am I missing?
Which are the most important of all the things in this meta-analysis?
Where can I buy these things in solid quality for a low price?
What is the quantity and frequency that these things should be taken?


I'm hoping through the combined power of this community we can create a comprehensive cancer fighting information warehouse as an official ImmInst project.

This open-source information warehouse should ideally address everything I've brought up here, and could be kept in a single location and continuosly updated and distributed to anybody and everybody who is seriously trying to overcome cancer.

I think this could be a very major achievement for the Immortality Institute.

Anything related to the stroke would also be appreciated- perhaps in addition to a cancer fighting info warehouse we can do one for strokes as well.

Any small piece of individual advice or words of enouragement are of course appreciated.

Thanks.

That sounds like a good regimen, but are you sure you don't want to try chemo? TFI used chemo despite his supplementation use.

I read Quercetin may have anti-cancer properties: The article mentions that if you eat vegetables and fruits you are likely getting 25-50 mg of this substance a day.

http://www.highlight...ents/quercetin/
Studies have shown that quercetin exhibits anticancer effects [14]. A number of phase I clinical trials have been performed with quercetin evaluating pharmacokinetics [15] and adenoma regression [16]. A combination of curcumin and quercetin was evaluated to regress adenomas in patients with familialadenomatous polyposis (FAP), an autosomal-dominant disorder characterized by the development of colorectal adenomas and eventual colorectal cancer. The study found that the combination appeared to decreased polyp number and size from baseline after 6 months of treatment [16].

Epidemiologic data indicates that reduction in colorectal cancer risk associated with the highest 25% of data vs. the lowest 25% was largest for quercetin and catechin [17]. Overall, flavonoids showed strong and linear inverse associations with colorectal cancer risk. Large-scale genomic studies in colon cancer cells suggest that quercetin affects the expression of genes involved in cell cycle control [18-19]. Flavonoids also modulate cell cycle progression in prostate cancer cells [20-21].

A recent review assessing the contribution of dietary flavonoids to the total antioxidant capacity of plasma in humans concluded that the large increase in plasma total antioxidant capacity observed after the consumption of flavonoid-rich foods is not caused by the flavonoids themselves, but is likely the consequence of increased uric acid levels [22]. A potent antioxidant, uric acid is a normal constituent of the body and is the end product of purine (meaning the nucleotides adenine and guanine, two of the four building blocks of RNA and DNA) metabolism. Because the increased plasma concentration of uric acid is much greater than the concentration of flavonoids, the change in uric acid levels is thought to be responsible for the relatively large increase in plasma total antioxidant capacity after consumption of flavonoid-rich foods. Most uric acid produced in the body is excreted by the kidneys. However, it has been proposed that renal uric acid clearance is regulated by an unknown signal that is issued in response to the level of oxidative stress [23], allowing the kidneys to reabsorb the potent antioxidant when needed.

Flavonoids have been shown to induce detoxifying Phase II enzymes [24-25], indicating that they are recognized by the body as foreign compounds. Thus, it has been proposed that the ability of flavonoids to induce detoxifying enzymes may be a major mechanism by which flavonoids protect against mutagens and carcinogens, and act as cancer chemopreventive agents [22].

I wish your grandmother the best.

[mustardseed41]

http://www.lef.org/m...elatonin_01.htm

[100YearsToGo]

I suppose she is having chemo drugs? I suggest not to discontinue that. They are designed to attack cancer in a p53 dependend way. Tumor cells can have the P53 gene present, absent or in a mutated form. What you could do is attack the cancer with a supplement that is clinically proven to atack cancer in a P53 independent way. This would be complementary to p53 pathways dependant chemo drugs. I also suggest you examine your current list so you don't give your grand mother a supplement that suppresses P53 or the activation of it's pathways. Given her advanced age the normal functioning of the P53 an P16 genes are allready diminished. Be carefull and thorough. I hesitate to give any more advice than this.

Edited by 100YearsToGo, 12 October 2008 - 03:58 PM.

[thefirstimmortal]

Our immediate concern, though, has been dealing with the stroke.

read more of her story here.

When I hit this link, all I got was
User is not authorized to access action /viewHome
You don't have permission to access /cb/viewHome.do on this server.

[Mixter]

Hi,

Please post what type cancer and in which stage and whether aggressively growing, this
makes it easier to point to specific recommendations / studies.

As general orientation but also for specific cancer types, also see: http://www.lefcancer.org

But the stroke is no small concern, either. In the first hours, you can do the most, in
the first weeks-months after stroke, you can still do a lot. Discuss hydergine treatment with
the physician. Otherwise give her other neuroprotectives and plenty of piracetam,
because the after-effects of stroke cause a lot of free radicals and neurotoxicity.
Apart from cancer treatment, your grandma can use plenty of neuroprotectives atm:
http://www.lef.org/p...prtcl-102.shtml

Edited by mixter, 12 October 2008 - 05:45 PM.

[RighteousReason]

Our immediate concern, though, has been dealing with the stroke.

read more of her story here.

When I hit this link, all I got was
User is not authorized to access action /viewHome
You don't have permission to access /cb/viewHome.do on this server.

whoops. thanks.

let's try this again.

caringbridge.com

[RighteousReason]

one of 12 lymph nodes that were tested came back positive

This is all we know as of now.

Another question is what kind of tests she needs done or who we need to see, if anybody has advice on this. My aunt is looking into this independently.

Edited by Savage, 12 October 2008 - 06:07 PM.

[RighteousReason]

She is taking Coumadin.

[missminni]

Definitely put her on Resveratrol as soon as possible. Aprox 170mg/kg. Mix it in yogurt and have her take it at least twice, if not 3 times a day.
The sooner you start the more successful it is. You can give it concurrent with chemo, although i personally wouldn't do chemo. It actually supports chemo and don't forget CoQ10 daily. Mix it in flax oil.
Stevia is a better sweetener than saccharine. Good luck.

[Zenob]

She is taking Coumadin.

My grandmother takes that. Make sure they watch the blood levels closely, it can get out of wack very easily. Might want to also get some pressure socks as the blood could start pooling in her legs and increase the odds of a clot forming.

The stroke sympoms can improve dramatically over the months. My grandmother has had mini strokes, and my grandfather on the other side of the family had a major stroke. At first he was paralyzed on one side and pretty much couldn't talk at all. He got his full movement back and a lot of his speech(but you had to know him to understand him that well). I'd wait till most of the swelling/etc from the stroke had subsided before really workign on this. If she'll do it, speech therapy/physical therapy can really help. Maybe something like piractem on down the road to see if it can help her get back more of what she lost. I'd ask her doctor about that one though. If she's in a frail state the piractem might be more then her liver can clear.

She is going the traditional route with her cancer treatment isn't she? Don't go down the alty road and skip traditional care. My grandmother has had cancer twice(blood and breast) and has beaten it both times with "normal" cancer treatments. If you want to add to that, don't go overboard with 50 different supplements/treatments. For instance, the intravenous vit C is pretty much out. You have to pump so much in that you are basically turning the person into a human orange and that doesn't "kill" the cancer, it just slows it down a tiny bit. Plus the high dose vit C has been shown to interfere with normal cancer treatments Link. I'd just go for good well rounded nutrion(time to learn to cook+some multi vits). Maybe something like Resvertrol that has some scientific papers backing it up(or anything else that might show some ability to toggle the cancer suppressor genes). I don't think res is some kind of cancer "cure" but it does seem to have some benefits and it appears to be very well tolerated. If it were me, I'd also be seeing if I could find anything published on telomerease inhibitors. Try and slow the buggers down so the cancer treatments can wack'em. Basically, don't try and find a magic bullet that is going to "cure" her cancer. Try and increase her overal health and boost her odds of the traditional treatment taking it out.

Be real careful about getting sucked into alty cancer cures. If any of them worked, don't you think EVERYONE would know about it? If any alty treatments actually worked and could back up their claims, that would start a wildfire that would be impossible to stop. It would be on the news and every magazine you picked up. Yet that hasn't happened.

[RighteousReason]

She is taking Coumadin.

My grandmother takes that. Make sure they watch the blood levels closely, it can get out of wack very easily. Might want to also get some pressure socks as the blood could start pooling in her legs and increase the odds of a clot forming.

This has already happened once >.<

If she'll do it, speech therapy/physical therapy can really help.

She keeps very busy doing this stuff in her rehab facility.

She is going the traditional route with her cancer treatment isn't she?

We haven't really taken any action at all on her cancer yet. We are still debating whether or not to do chemotherapy.

If you want to add to that, don't go overboard with 50 different supplements/treatments.

That's not really the idea. Creating this document is different than what we actually do. I'll let everyone know what actions we decide to take.

For instance, the intravenous vit C is pretty much out

hm.. does anyone have another opinion? I added your link to the doc.

Edited by Savage, 12 October 2008 - 07:54 PM.

[RighteousReason]

Definitely put her on Resveratrol as soon as possible. Aprox 170mg/kg. Mix it in yogurt and have her take it at least twice, if not 3 times a day.
The sooner you start the more successful it is. You can give it concurrent with chemo, although i personally wouldn't do chemo. It actually supports chemo and don't forget CoQ10 daily. Mix it in flax oil.
Stevia is a better sweetener than saccharine. Good luck.

Thanks for your response. I've added some notes to the doc.

[thefirstimmortal]

Our immediate concern, though, has been dealing with the stroke.

read more of her story here.

When I hit this link, all I got was
User is not authorized to access action /viewHome
You don't have permission to access /cb/viewHome.do on this server.

whoops. thanks.

let's try this again.

caringbridge.com

Hi Savage, I will return to this thread at some point. I have an order to prepare, and I still have to return my PM's from yesterday. I will at least start a response before I crash tonight.

[RighteousReason]

Our immediate concern, though, has been dealing with the stroke.

read more of her story here.

When I hit this link, all I got was
User is not authorized to access action /viewHome
You don't have permission to access /cb/viewHome.do on this server.

whoops. thanks.

let's try this again.

caringbridge.com

Hi Savage, I will return to this thread at some point. I have an order to prepare, and I still have to return my PM's from yesterday. I will at least start a response before I crash tonight.

I appreciate it... no rush

She is taking Coumadin.

Oh, apparently she is taking a whole long list of drugs. Because of that, I'm thinking we are going to have to meet with some kind of holistic doctor of some sort in order to figure out what goes with what and what we can do and can't, etc. I dunno anything about doing that but hopefully we can figure that out.

Edited by Savage, 13 October 2008 - 01:01 AM.

[RighteousReason]

She is going the traditional route with her cancer treatment isn't she?

We haven't really taken any action at all on her cancer yet. We are still debating whether or not to do chemotherapy.

UPDATE: Turns out we are debating *radiation therapy*, not chemotherapy.

[thefirstimmortal]

She is going the traditional route with her cancer treatment isn't she?

We haven't really taken any action at all on her cancer yet. We are still debating whether or not to do chemotherapy.

UPDATE: Turns out we are debating *radiation therapy*, not chemotherapy.

OK, I've read the thread, I'm going to take a sort break and come back. Now, I'm going to be bouncing all over the place, so this is going to get messy.

[thefirstimmortal]

POSTED UNDER THE THREAT OF CENSORSHIP

We did learn last week that one of 12 lymph nodes that were tested came back positive and she will have to have radiation treatment for this.

I happen to know a little something about lymphoma because that is what they thought I had originally until my second biopsy report showed that I had something a little more aggressive. So I spent several days reading up on it.

The first question I have is,

Is it Hodgkin lymphoma or Non-Hodgkin lymphoma?

[thefirstimmortal]

POSTED UNDER THE THREAT OF CENSORSHIP


I'm going to take a wild guess here. It is a Nodular sclerosis. Again, this is just a guess. Nodular sclerosis is a form of Hodgkin’s lymphoma which is the most common subtype of Hodgkin’s lymphoma. It usually affects females more than males.

Pathologically, the disease is characterized by the presence of Reed-Sternberg cells. Most survival rates are generally around 90% when the disease is detected relatively early, making it one of the more curable forms of cancer. If it’s only in one nodule, your early.

[thefirstimmortal]

POSTED UNDER THE THREAT OF CENSORSHIP


http://www.leukemia-...=8312#_survival

Survival
Hodgkin lymphoma is now considered to be one of the most curable forms of cancer. Many patients with Hodgkin lymphoma are cured after initial treatment. For the smaller number of patients who may have a recurrence of the disease or a relapse, re-treatment with chemotherapy is often successful.

The five-year relative survival rate for patients with Hodgkin lymphoma has increased dramatically from 40 percent in whites from 1960-1963 to more than 86 percent for all races in 1996-2004. Five-year relative survival rates are 91.6 percent for all patients who were less than 45 years old at diagnosis.
In the United States in 2008, there are 143,814 people living with Hodgkin lymphoma (active disease or in remission) and 430,711 people living with NHL, for a total of 574,525 people in the U.S. population who are living with lymphoma.

[thefirstimmortal]

POSTED UNDER THE THREAT OF CENSORSHIP

Survival rate was the first thing I looked up, so I was pretty happy with my odds when they first told me I had cancer amd it was lymphoma. I mean, if you gotta have cancer, that's the one you want.

Then they came and told me I had SCLC, and I looked up the survival rates on that.

[thefirstimmortal]

POSTED UNDER THE THREAT OF CENSORSHIP

One thing we are seriously debating is whether to go through with radiation therapy. We are leaning against it. Any advice on this point would be greatly appreciated.

It's good advice. If you only have one spot and it is small and you use an IMRT, which I've posted about, you're in good shape. Your radiation field will be so small their won't be a lot of damage. You also want to consider DukeNukems advice on this. I know he is going to disagree with me, but you need to hear the opposing view on this.

I'm not a big fan of Chemo or radiation, I'm also not dead set against the use. I believe these are used to widely and too often, but they have their place.

[thefirstimmortal]

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apparently she is taking a whole long list of drugs.

Get us the list.

[thefirstimmortal]

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I'm hoping through the combined power of this community we can create a comprehensive cancer fighting information warehouse as an official ImmInst project.

How about this Savage, why don't we just concentrate on getting Grandma well

[thefirstimmortal]

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That sounds like a good regimen, but are you sure you don't want to try chemo? TFI used chemo despite his supplementation use.

Hi Dmitri.

Chemo isn't really what you want to do here Savage, at least not for starters. My situation was wholly different, I had on 2 occassions a tumor that was threatening to end my life in days. On one occasion I was in real danger of stopping blood flow from my tumor encasing my heart. Had I not been so close to death, I would not have used the chemo. Grandma has more time to play with, and more options to explore.

[thefirstimmortal]

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I suppose she is having chemo drugs? I suggest not to discontinue that. They are designed to attack cancer in a p53 dependend way. Tumor cells can have the P53 gene present, absent or in a mutated form. What you could do is attack the cancer with a supplement that is clinically proven to atack cancer in a P53 independent way. This would be complementary to p53 pathways dependant chemo drugs. I also suggest you examine your current list so you don't give your grand mother a supplement that suppresses P53 or the activation of it's pathways. Given her advanced age the normal functioning of the P53 an P16 genes are allready diminished. Be carefull and thorough. I hesitate to give any more advice than this.

Savage, when considering chemo and P53 gene, consider the following.

Dear Kurt,
I just finished a review of your Prognosis letter that you sent to Dr. Short, Regional Medical Director for CMS. I do thank you for taking the time to get that done.

The part that you wrote keeps echoing in my head, “Patients often time respond to initial treatment, however, often times progress with the likelihood of steady decline in his condition to death.” You are correct Kurt, I am responding rather well to the initial treatment, I do want to take pause to thank you for shrinking the tumor. I wouldn’t be here writing this had you not got that much accomplished. I do thank you for giving me the best that conventional medicine has to offer. Nothing that I say in the future will ever take away from that appreciation.

If I am to understand you correctly, in a nutshell the chemotherapy, while initially successful (“Patients often time respond to initial treatment…) will soon become a dismal failure (…however, often times progress with the likelihood of steady decline in his condition to death.”) My understanding of all this, and please correct me if I am in error, chemotherapy kills cells by damaging their DNA. All malignant tisses harbor some cells that have a natural resistance to many chemotherapy agents, just as bacteria is exposed to antibiotics develop resistance to those drugs. Although the chemotherapy agents initially affect most cancer cells (“Patients often time respond to initial treatments…”) those that are resistant survive and eventually they develop into an even more dangerous tumor. This process is accelerated by the tendency of cancer cells to mutate with even greater frequency as the tumor redevelops (…however, often times progress with the likelihood of steady decline in his condition to death.”)

To make matters worse, both Chemotherapy and Radiation therapy, aside from burdening the body’s detoxification system and suppressing the immune system, causes a mutation in the gene that is supposed to protect the body against cancer. The defective p-53 protein can no longer do it’s job. The tumor suppressor gene normally codes for a protein that stops the growth of potential cancer cells by binding to the cells DNA and blocking cell division. These mutated cells have an enormous competitive advantage and eventually dominate the tumor. When the p 53 gene mutates, the tumor’s growth spins out of control. Since my p-53 will no longer be effective, the mutated cancer cells will refuse to die and continue to multiply, while the rest of the body suffers from the effects of chemotherapy or radiation therapy. This biological scenario explains why most cancer patients with small cell lung cancer, while initially respond well to treatment (“Patients often time respond to initial treatments…”) do not live long (…however, often times progress with the likelihood of steady decline in his condition to death.”) The gain is temporary; so much of the health gain is illusory.

The temporary shrinkage of the tumor mass is a temporary remission, because the remaining tumor cells will grow much faster and more virulently after the first series of chemotherapy treatments. Would it be fair to say that Conventional therapy is finished at that point and has nothing to offer to continue the battle, so in the absence of a plan the highly aggressive tumor will soon grow again? Killing me it’s host?

Now is the time to start planning for the next stage of my war against my cancer. It is wise to consider the process of reversing and overcoming the dangerous progression of cancer as a war. As in any war, if the enemy is at the gates, or worse as in my case inside the gates, it’s important to mobilize all the means of intelligence and weaponry that can be harnessed. It is wise to attack on multiple fronts, and be armed as soon as possible.

To fight a disease after it has occurred is like trying to dig a well when one is thirsty or forging a weapon once a war has already begun.

Live Long and Well
William O’Rights

[thefirstimmortal]

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A post on Radiation Therapy


X-Message-Number: 31039
From: "Steve Harris" <sbharris1@earthlink.com>
References: <20080910090002.50833.qmail@rho.pair.com>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #31036 O'Rights and Radiation
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:16:18 -0700

Comment: Radiation doesn't cause nausea unless the beam hits
your gut, which today's very fine beams can be adjusted not
to do, if you like. Otherwise it's nearly without side
effect when administered to lung or bone in a narrow beam.
There is typically some redness of the skin akin to mild
sunburn, but that's all.

It would be silly to refuse it for a bad reason. It may not
change survival time, but it will shrink any tumor it's
directed at, and will help pain associated with tumor
expansion, which is the typical way that tumors generate
pain. It should also delay (but not prevent) pneumonia from
tumor blockage of lung airways.

Steve Harris

----- Original Message -----
> Message #31036
> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 09:08:32 -0700 (PDT)
> From: William O'Rights <thefirstimmortal@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Dear Dad

> A The next step is supposed to be radiation treatment, but
> I may have to refuse that. I am simply not well enough to
> go thru a 3-week course that also causes nausea and
> vomiting. I donaC t have enough fat reserves

[thefirstimmortal]

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Another post on Radiation Therapy

X-Message-Number: 31057
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 19:58:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: William O'Rights <thefirstimmortal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Silly and Foolish

Steve Harris
>Comment: Radiation doesn't cause nausea unless the beam hits
>your gut,

Actually Steve, Radiation therapy to the stomach, abdomen, or pelvis can often
cause nausea and vomiting. Gastrointestinal toxicity can occur following
irradiation of thoracic, abdominal, or pelvic malignancies whenever normal
gastrointestinal structures are located within the radiation therapy field.
Radiation-induced nausea and vomiting typically occur within 24 hours of
treatment, and over 80 percent of patients undergoing radiation of the upper
body will develop symptoms of nausea and vomiting. The gastrointestinal side
effects of RT include early acute toxicity, such as diarrhea and nausea, that
are experienced during or shortly after the completion of a course of therapy.

> which today's very fine beams can be adjusted not
>to do, if you like.

That assumes that one has the options such as CyberKnife, which is a
comparatively less invasive, more precise radiation technique that can deliver
concentrated and accurate beams of radiation to any site in the body. This
system combines robotics and advanced image guidance cameras to locate the
tumor's position in the body and deliver highly focused beams of radiation that
converge at the tumor, avoiding normal tissue for the most part. It is a fairly
impressive and successful method used to treat spinal tumors or tumors at other
critical locations that are not amenable to open surgery or radiation, as well
as to treat medically inoperable patients.


And of course there is Proton beam radiation therapy. This is one of the most
precise and sophisticated forms of external beam radiation therapy available
that I know of. The advantage of proton radiation therapy over x-rays is its
ability to deliver higher doses of shaped beams of radiation directly into the
tumor while minimizing the dose to normal tissues. This leads to reduced side
effects and improved survival rates.

There are not that many treatment centers worldwide for Proton beam radiation
therapy, the closest that I am aware of is the Northeast Proton Treatment Center
at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston. I unfortunately live in Maine, so
these two options are equally not available to me, whether I like it or not.


I was told that the only machine available to me at the time was
Three-dimensional conformal radiation therapy (3D-CRT). 3D-CRT is a technique
that uses imaging computers to map the location of a tumor, but it old tech. It
is possible to reduce radiation damage to normal tissues surrounding the tumor
by up to 50 percent, but that's not the kind of numbers one wants to hear when
their tumor is resting up against the heart, esophagus, and lung. I was told to
expect not only Radiation-induced nausea and vomiting,but radiation issues in my
esophagus.


At the time that was written my tumor was still fairly larger. It was to later
shrink to a small 1cm, and I found out that Intensity modulated radiation
therapy (IMRT) was available for me to use. IMRT creates a shaped radiation
beam, delivering high doses of radiation to the tumor and significantly smaller
doses of radiation to the surrounding normal tissues, not as well as CyberKnife
or Proton beam radiation therapy, but good enough to blast a 1cm tumor without
too much surrounding tissue damage. Unfortunately by then, the doctors adopted a
wait and see approach, 40 days later we were back to square one with an 11.4cm
tumor.

> Otherwise it's nearly without side
>effect when administered to lung or bone in a narrow beam.
>There is typically some redness of the skin akin to mild
>sunburn, but that's all.


Actually that not quite accurate. The most selective Radiation cannot
selectively target the tumor without some damage getting there so even the most
sophisticated machines have the issue of hitting normal cells within the
radiation field, and those cell suffer damage, leading to potentially serious
side effects. Although radiation is directed at the tumor, it is inevitable that
the normal, non-cancerous tissues surrounding the tumor will also be affected
by the radiation causing damage. The radiation beam does not magically miss all
of the healthy tissue. Radiation-induced fibrosis, a serious late effect of
radiotherapy, is mainly characterized by changes in the connective tissue of the
lungs. Sort of a concern of mine. The lung is among the most radiosensitive
organs, and the risk of severe side effects seriously compromises the whole
picture. Radiation pneumonitis (inflammation of the lung) is a common acute side
effect occurring many patients

treated for lung cancer between one month and six months after radiotherapy.
Radiation therapy-induced fibrosis is associated with scarring of the lung and
typically occurs months to years after radiotherapy.

> It may not
>change survival time, but it will shrink any tumor it's
>directed at, and will help pain associated with tumor
>expansion, which is the typical way that tumors generate
>pain. It should also delay (but not prevent) pneumonia from
>tumor blockage of lung airways.


Well Steve, if it doesn't change the survival time than it is wholly irrelevant,
because that's all I really care about.

>It would be silly to refuse it for a bad reason.

And Foolish to use it for the wrong reasons;)
Live Long and Well
William O'Rights

[thefirstimmortal]

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Having posted this, I have to tell you, your Grandmothers situation is different. She has one area that needs to be taken care of. It needs to be stopped before it speads. Radiation Therapy should be considered.

Edited by thefirstimmortal, 13 October 2008 - 05:47 AM.

[thefirstimmortal]

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If you want to add to that, don't go overboard with 50 different supplements/treatments.

Really, why not Zenob?

For instance, the intravenous vit C is pretty much out

hm.. does anyone have another opinion? I added your link to the doc.

I wouldn’t dismiss VCIV as a cancer cure, or part of an arsenel to combat large or multiple site tumors. However, again, in your Grandmothers particular case it probably shouldn’t be that high on the list because your goals are different. You don’t have a huge tumor to shrink, and you don’t have multiple sites. Your concentration should be on blasting the tumor and preventing it’s spread.