7 replies to this topic

[Forever21]

http://www.cnn.com/v...inkgo.fails.cnn






(Shawn, leave my threads alone. Go back to your Kool-Aid.)

Edited by Forever21, 21 November 2008 - 02:01 AM.

[Lotus]

(Shawn, leave my threads alone. Go back to your Kool-Aid.)

The point of a forum is discussion. This topic is very important and I believe we need to discuss it from every angle. If you are trying to prevent some people to comment on this, it makes me question whether you really want a discussion or not. I would like to read as many opinions on this as possible as i take supplements and have recommended some supplements to my friends and family.

So far, the studies you've posted has only been about Ginko, C and E. The article suggest that supplementing with E or some form of it should be avoided. C or Ginko does not cause any harm, they just seem to be ineffective against the diseases they were tested for. All the other types of supplements that many of us take were not a part of these studies.

[Forever21]

I believe it is a video.

Edited by Forever21, 21 November 2008 - 07:48 AM.

[Lotus]

You are right. I was referring to both the video and the article in the previous post, my mistake. Let's discuss the video here. To sum it up:

Supplements that are ineffective :

Ginko Biloba does not seem to help against dementia/Alzheimerz when taken after the age of 75.
Echinacea does not seem to help against colds.
St.Johns Wort seem to be ineffective againt depression

Supplements that can be harmful:

Kava can cause liver problems.
Ephedra has been linked to deaths.
Some ayurvedic supplements can be harmful.

In conclusion, those that take kava, ephedra and ayurvedic supplement should be warned. Also, people that take Ginko, Echinacea or St Johns Wort for those conditions should probably try something else.

However, I have not noticed many people that take these supplements here, but maybe I'm wrong.

Edited by Lotus, 21 November 2008 - 10:34 AM.

[abelard lindsay]

I agree with everything above except for

SOME ayurvedic supplements are harmful does not mean all are harmful. Again, this is the age-old guilt by association fallacy. There are hundreds and many have been shown to be very helpful. I also believe the issue in question was due to lead contamination caused by low-quality Indian suppliers.

You can cause death from liver poisoning if you take 15 tylenol. Kava at high dosages should also definitely be avoided. It should also be avoided by those with liver health issues. Most kava bottles that I have seen state this pretty clearly on their labels.

Ephedra and several pro-hormone products have been banned for several years now because they were proven to be dangerous.

Secondly, St. Johns Wort has been proven effective in treating mild depression. In Germany it is the most commonly prescribed anti-depressant.

St John's wort for major depression.
Linde K, Berner MM, Kriston L.

Centre for Complementary Medicine Research, Department of Internal Medicine II, Technische Universitaet Muenchen, Wolfgangstr. 8, Munich, Germany, 81667.

BACKGROUND: In some countries extracts of the plant Hypericum perforatum L. (popularly called St. John's wort) are widely used for treating patients with depressive symptoms. OBJECTIVES: To investigate whether extracts of hypericum are more effective than placebo and as effective as standard antidepressants in the treatment of major depression; and whether they have fewer adverse effects than standard antidepressant drugs. SEARCH STRATEGY: Trials were searched in computerised databases, by checking bibliographies of relevant articles, and by contacting manufacturers and researchers. SELECTION CRITERIA: Trials were included if they: (1) were randomised and double-blind; (2) included patients with major depression; (3) compared extracts of St. John's wort with placebo or standard antidepressants; (4) included clinical outcomes assessing depressive symptoms. DATA COLLECTION AND ANALYSIS: At least two independent reviewers extracted information from study reports. The main outcome measure for assessing effectiveness was the responder rate ratio (the relative risk of having a response to treatment). The main outcome measure for adverse effects was the number of patients dropping out due to adverse effects. MAIN RESULTS: A total of 29 trials (5489 patients) including 18 comparisons with placebo and 17 comparisons with synthetic standard antidepressants met the inclusion criteria. Results of placebo-controlled trials showed marked heterogeneity. In nine larger trials the combined response rate ratio (RR) for hypericum extracts compared with placebo was 1.28 (95% confidence interval (CI), 1.10 to 1.49) and from nine smaller trials was 1.87 (95% CI, 1.22 to 2.87). Results of trials comparing hypericum extracts and standard antidepressants were statistically homogeneous. Compared with tri- or tetracyclic antidepressants and selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), respectively, RRs were 1.02 (95% CI, 0.90 to 1.15; 5 trials) and 1.00 (95% CI, 0.90 to 1.11; 12 trials). Both in placebo-controlled trials and in comparisons with standard antidepressants, trials from German-speaking countries reported findings more favourable to hypericum. Patients given hypericum extracts dropped out of trials due to adverse effects less frequently than those given older antidepressants (odds ratio (OR) 0.24; 95% CI, 0.13 to 0.46) or SSRIs (OR 0.53, 95% CI, 0.34-0.83). AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS: The available evidence suggests that the hypericum extracts tested in the included trials a) are superior to placebo in patients with major depression; b) are similarly effective as standard antidepressants; c) and have fewer side effects than standard antidepressants. The association of country of origin and precision with effects sizes complicates the interpretation.

Continuation and long-term maintenance treatment with Hypericum extract WS 5570 after recovery from an acute episode of moderate depression--a double-blind, randomized, placebo controlled long-term trial.
Kasper S, Volz HP, Möller HJ, Dienel A, Kieser M.

Department of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, Medical University of Vienna, Währinger Gürtel 18-20, Austria. sci-biolpsy@meduniwien.ac.at

The efficacy and safety of Hypericum extract WS 5570 in preventing relapse during 6 months' continuation treatment and 12 months' long-term maintenance treatment after recovery from an episode of recurrent depression were investigated in a double-blind, placebo controlled multicenter trial. Adult out-patients with a recurrent episode of moderate major depression, a 17-item Hamilton Depression Rating Scale (HAMD) total score > or =20 and > or =3 previous episodes in 5 years participated. After 6 weeks of single-blind treatment with 3 x 300 mg/day WS 5570 patients with score < or =2 on item 'Improvement' of the Clinical Global Impressions (CGI) scale and a HAMD total score decrease > or =50% versus baseline were randomized to 3 x 300 mg/day WS 5570 or placebo for 26 weeks. 426 patients were evaluated for efficacy. Relapse rates during continuation treatment were 51/282 (18.1%) for WS 5570 and 37/144 (25.7%) for placebo. Average time to relapse was 177+/-2.8 and 163+/-4.4 days for WS 5570 and placebo, respectively (time-to-event analysis; p=0.034; alpha=0.025 one-sided). Patients treated with WS 5570 showed more favorable HAMD and Beck Depression Inventory time courses and greater over-all improvement (CGI) than those randomized to placebo. In long-term maintenance treatment a pronounced prophylactic effect of WS 5570 was observed in patients with an early onset of depression as well as in those with a high degree of chronicity. Adverse event rates under WS 5570 were comparable to placebo. WS 5570 showed a beneficial effect in preventing relapse after recovery from acute depression. Tolerability in continuation and long-term maintenance treatment was on the placebo level.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 21 November 2008 - 02:57 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

(Shawn, leave my threads alone. Go back to your Kool-Aid.)

If you want to push an anti-supplement agenda here on the forums, that's fine -- in fact, I would actually encourage it. A skeptical perspective can add value to the discussion and keep us grounded. Opales used to fulfill that role in a very effective way. He is a professional researcher and reveled in shooting down our hopes and dreams of what supplements are capable of.

However, you are going to have to do better than posting a poorly written article that found one specific risk in taking the wrong form of Vitamin E, concluding "supplements don't work", and then attacking me personally rather than defending your position. And telling me to stay out of your threads because your last post did not hold up well under scrutiny is immature and simply unacceptable.

I doubt that many people on this board still believed ginkgo was effective. It has been shot down repeatedly, in study after study, for years now. The same goes for echinacea. St. John's Wort has many positive studies and its efficacy could provide the basis for a productive discussion if you are interested. Kava kava is a known liver killer and ephedrine does exactly what you expect a powerful stimulant to do with regard to side effects and potential dangers. Some heavy metals were found in ayurvedic products awhile back, not in supplements from reputable suppliers, but from random herbs found in Indian grocery stores and South Asian markets in the Boston area. So, the relevance of this finding to all of us here is negligible.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 21 November 2008 - 04:22 PM.

[Forever21]

can't shut your piehole eh?

i thought you're not going to dignify these threads.

i won't be your opales. its a lost cause in a supplement-sponsored forum.

members and team members who are opposed to supplements (in private)
are quiet about it (in the forum) for a reason.

i consider their judgement not some 28 year old dick's.

Edited by Forever21, 21 November 2008 - 04:32 PM.

[Shepard]

If you wish to discuss the failings of supplements rationally, it's quite encouraged. Letting your threads devolve like this is not. This one is done.