18 replies to this topic

[ozmonster]

Want to give you'all a breakdown of my CRON routine so that maybe someone can find some weaknesses that may cause problems down the road.

37 years
75 inches
160 pounds
male
moderate activity
vegetarian with dairy
raw (with exception of milk, coffee and protein powder)

total consumption of all chemicals (except water and air below)

CR:
40% reduction of calories
1700 k/cal per day
40% fresh or dried fruit
30% walnuts, almonds or peanuts
30% protein powder
eat every 4-5 hours

ON:
omega 3
vitamin D
resveratrol
grape seed extract
B6-B12-folic acid
alpha lupoic acid

hygiene:
Dr. Bronners (very sparingly)
thoms touthpaste
thoms deoderant (very sparingly)

drugs:
caffeine (often)
thc (often)

Edited by ozmonster, 30 November 2008 - 04:40 PM.

[athrahasis]

Hey ozmonster,

Some questions for you:

Why take Resveratrol while on CRON, isn't it redundant?
What type of B12 are you taking?
What type, and how much, of O3 (or proportion) are you taking?
Have you tested for peanut inflammation markers?

Edited by athrahasis, 02 December 2008 - 10:40 PM.

[Shepard]

hygiene:
Dr. Bronners (very sparingly)
thoms deoderant (very sparingly)

drugs:
thc (often)

You can't make this stuff up, kids.

[ozmonster]

Hey ozmonster,

Some questions for you:

Why take Resveratrol while on CRON, isn't it redundant?
What type of B12 are you taking?
What type, and how much, of O3 (or proportion) are you taking?
Have you tested for peanut inflammation markers?

only taking 160 mg/day for blood
trader darwin under the tongue b6-b12-folic multi
trader darwin 3mg/day
no

[edward]

you can jack up the ON part and tinker with it all day but here are some gaps worth filling:

first off you need a good multi, AOR would be the best bet, or Supernutriiton USA Perfect Blend Iron Free (only take half the recommended dose)

I'd throw in some timed release melatonin

as far as your b-12 I would go with methyl b-12, there is a big difference in my opinion

some green tea might be beneficial as well

Edited by edward, 03 December 2008 - 02:54 AM.

[Michael]

Want to give you'all a breakdown of my CRON routine so that maybe someone can find some weaknesses that may cause problems down the road.

CR:
40% reduction of calories

Relative to what -- and how measured?

1700 k/cal per day
40% fresh or dried fruit
30% walnuts, almonds or peanuts
30% protein powder

I'm glad to see you're getting what I assume is lots of protein, which is the big mistake of a lot of CR people (especially early on), veg(etari)ans, and raw foodies. However, you are saying here that you are eating no vegetables. Is that accurate? Vegetables are the most important class of food for anyone to eat, let alone a CR person; on CR, they should make up almost all of your carb Calories.

More broadly, there's no real way to evaluate how you're doing on the ON side without a nutrition analysis, run on software like CRON-O-Meter. It's a really bad idea to even attempt CR without this kind of data, especially as a person combining CR with additional dietary restrictions.

ON:

Quibble: supplements aren't nutrition ...

thc (often)

Hopefully not administered by inhaling burning-hot fibers ...

Hey ozmonster,

Some questions for you:

Why take Resveratrol while on CRON, isn't it redundant?

Not redundant, no -- the whole 'resveratrol as CR mimetic' thing is blown out of the water by its failure to extend lifespan in normal, healthy mammals (1) and much other data besides; rather, resveratrol is evidently of little benefit, and it doesn't much matter whether you're on CR or not. In fact, however, if any of the animals in this study benefited from resveratrol, it was precisely the ones who were also put on an alternate-day fasting regimen .

-Michael

1. Pearson KJ, Baur JA, Lewis KN, Peshkin L, Price NL, Labinskyy N, Swindell WR, Kamara D, Minor RK, Perez E, Jamieson HA, Zhang Y, Dunn SR, Sharma K, Pleshko N, Woollett LA, Csiszar A, Ikeno Y, Le Couteur D, Elliott PJ, Becker KG, Navas P, Ingram DK, Wolf NS, Ungvari Z, Sinclair DA, de Cabo R.
Resveratrol Delays Age-Related Deterioration and Mimics Transcriptional Aspects of Dietary Restriction without Extending Life Span.
Cell Metab. 2008 Jul 2. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 18599363 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Edited by Michael, 04 December 2008 - 03:12 PM.

[ozmonster]

Relative to what -- and how measured?

i just used the CRON calculator that compared it to my "twin" of certain BMI.

However, you are saying here that you are eating no vegetables. Is that accurate? Vegetables are the most important class of food for anyone to eat, let alone a CR person; on CR, they should make up almost all of your carb Calories.

That is correct. I hate veggies. won't eat them. All my carbs from fruit only. Why is this a big problem. Fruit is vegetable matter at the molecular level and it binds to many of the same micronutients as veggies. same with nuts. Also much harder to clean off the pathogenic bacteria found on many leafy veggies due to increased surface area. Cooking them strips them of the micro nutrients you were eating them in first place.

And lets get a perspective on this. The most important thing people can eat is not any particular "class" of food. The foundation comes from proper macro nutrient distribution. Your body is a protein syhthesizing machine, mind. No amount of veggies will make up for a macro nutrient deficiency.

More broadly, there's no real way to evaluate how you're doing on the ON side without a nutrition analysis, run on software like CRON-O-Meter. It's a really bad idea to even attempt CR without this kind of data, especially as a person combining CR with additional dietary restrictions.

I'll check it out. thanks.

Hopefully not administered by inhaling burning-hot fibers ...

Absolutely.

"The function of vice is to keep virtue within reasonable bounds." - Samuel Butler

Edited by ozmonster, 04 December 2008 - 05:05 PM.

[kismet]

That is correct. I hate veggies. won't eat them. All my carbs from fruit only. Why is this a big problem. Fruit is vegetable matter at the molecular level and it binds to many of the same micronutients as veggies. same with nuts. Also much harder to clean off the pathogenic bacteria found on many leafy veggies due to increased surface area. Cooking them strips them of the micro nutrients you were eating them in first place.

Are you suicidal? THC, no cronometer, no veggies, huge amounts of carb-loaded fruits? CR w/o the ON part is just starvation, it will shorten your life, not extend it.

And lets get a perspective on this. The most important thing people can eat is not any particular "class" of food. The foundation comes from proper macro nutrient distribution. Your body is a protein syhthesizing machine, mind. No amount of veggies will make up for a macro nutrient deficiency.

Erm... do you want to bet on this one? Try eating only macro-nutrients and see how long you survive (no, please don't!) Most macro-nutrients are not even essential, most amino-acids and glucose could be synthesized by your body. There are only a few essential amino-acids and fats as far as I know.
Lots of micro-nutrients are essential (to bare surival, don't even start me on life extension), there is no such thing as "more essential" (thus macro-nutrients cannot be more essential than micro-nutrients, you just need less of the latter).

No amount of macro nutrients will make up for micro nutrient deficiency! No essential nutrients, you die. That is pretty basic knowledge.

Edited by kismet, 04 December 2008 - 05:33 PM.

[ozmonster]

Are you suicidal? THC, no cronometer, no veggies, huge amounts of carb-loaded fruits? CR w/o the ON part is just starvation, it will shorten your life, not extend it.

We must favor verifiable evidence over private feeling. Otherwise we leave ourselves vulnerable to those who would obscure the truth. - Richard Dawkins

I'm not sure whether to justify this with a serious response. I guess I'll step in it.

So let's talk science.

1)cannabinoids have been shown to increase production of brain cells and reverse damage caused by Alzheimer disease. Also act to reduce stress and anxiety.
2)in re cronometer, you want me to rely on computer software with limited parameters and no real world experience to predict health effects as opposed to my own homeostatic markers and feelings of well being? makes perfect sense.
3)How is 30% calories from "huge amounts of carb-loaded fruits" contain any more carbs than 30% from veggies? walk me through the math on that one please.

Erm... do you want to bet on this one? Try eating only macro-nutrients and see how long you survive (no, please don't!) Most macro-nutrients are not even essential, most amino-acids and glucose could be synthesized by your body. There are only a few essential amino-acids and fats as far as I know.
Lots of micro-nutrients are essential (to bare surival, don't even start me on life extension), there is no such thing as "more essential" (thus macro-nutrients cannot be more essential than micro-nutrients, you just need less of the latter).

No amount of macro nutrients will make up for micro nutrient deficiency! No essential nutrients, you die. That is pretty basic knowledge.

I just have to laugh at the absurdity of this response. Please go read a book or something. Macronutrients and micronutrients are seperate things in your brain are they? Well in real world, you can't eat one and not the other (unless i suppose you food was artificially sythezised in a laboratory from basic molecules stripped of all micronutrient content.

Like, what do the teach you in school nowadays, like?

[kismet]

Are you suicidal? THC, no cronometer, no veggies, huge amounts of carb-loaded fruits? CR w/o the ON part is just starvation, it will shorten your life, not extend it.

We must favor verifiable evidence over private feeling. Otherwise we leave ourselves vulnerable to those who would obscure the truth. - Richard Dawkins

I'm not sure whether to justify this with a serious response. I guess I'll step in it.

Do you really get offended that easy? Please don't, it will only cause bad blood. 

So let's talk science.

1)cannabinoids have been shown to increase production of brain cells and reverse damage caused by Alzheimer disease. Also act to reduce stress and anxiety.
2)in re cronometer, you want me to rely on computer software with limited parameters and no real world experience to predict health effects as opposed to my own homeostatic markers and feelings of well being? makes perfect sense.
3)How is 30% calories from "huge amounts of carb-loaded fruits" contain any more carbs than 30% from veggies? walk me through the math on that one please.

1) I don't care about the THC science, but smoking it will not extend your life. If you have found another way to ingest it and you're confident in the science, fine. Your S. Butler quotation makes my interpretation, you smoking it, seem quite likely (why should it be a vice if you're not smoking it and the sciences backs you up?)
It was the overall impression of your diet and tone of your response (you were educating Michael about vegetable consumption without providing any scientific data, your reason for not consuming them seems childish, etc.) that made me think you don't know all the necessary basics . Sorry if I'm mistaken.
2) Yes, I want you to rely on cronometer or at least your own calculations regarding nutrients. I really hope you're not serious about judging your health only or mostly by "homeostatic markers and feelings of well being" instead of scientific fact.
3) You should know there's a lot of controversy regarding fructose and fruits in general. Dried fruit is basically candy. I hope you do know there are different kinds of carbs, so obviously there will be a difference.

Erm... do you want to bet on this one? Try eating only macro-nutrients and see how long you survive (no, please don't!) Most macro-nutrients are not even essential, most amino-acids and glucose could be synthesized by your body. There are only a few essential amino-acids and fats as far as I know.
Lots of micro-nutrients are essential (to bare surival, don't even start me on life extension), there is no such thing as "more essential" (thus macro-nutrients cannot be more essential than micro-nutrients, you just need less of the latter).

No amount of macro nutrients will make up for micro nutrient deficiency! No essential nutrients, you die. That is pretty basic knowledge.

I just have to laugh at the absurdity of this response. Please go read a book or something. Macronutrients and micronutrients are seperate things in your brain are they? Well in real world, you can't eat one and not the other (unless i suppose you food was artificially sythezised in a laboratory from basic molecules stripped of all micronutrient content.

Like, what do the teach you in school nowadays, like?

Did you notice that this was prompted by your own outrageous claim? "The foundation comes from proper macro nutrient distribution. Your body is a protein syhthesizing machine, mind. No amount of veggies will make up for a macro nutrient deficiency."
The term macro nutrient most often describes protein/fat/carbs/alcohols as isolated nutrients and tells one nothing (or barely anything) about the health potential of a diet,  so I think my response was justified, even if only for clarification.
Most macro nutrients are not even essential, so there's absolutely no need to make up for their lack.
A given macro nutrient distribution (even if you were not talking about isolated macro nutrients per se, but the foods that provide them) will not result in the most favourable micro nutrient distribution. A particular macro nutrient distribution could be severly lacking in essential micro nutrients. You could easily arrive at any given macro nutrient distribution, even with a diet that would kill you in the mid-long term.

Edited by kismet, 04 December 2008 - 09:17 PM.

[ozmonster]

Do you really get offended that easy? Please don't, it will only cause bad blood.

I really am not offended just felt to return your tone in kind. I know you were just being dramatic but you accused me of trying to kill myself. Not a joking matter under any circumstances, IMHO. No bad blood here tho. Let's move on with idea of getting all the facts before jumping to conclusions.

1) I don't care about the THC science

A bit shortsighted, wouldn't you agree. One should care about all science to varying degrees.

but smoking it will not extend your life. If you have found another way to ingest it and you're confident in the science, fine. Your S. Butler quotation makes my interpretation, you smoking it, seem quite likely (why should it be a vice if you're not smoking it and the sciences backs you up?).

This is a sound argument. The Butler quote, however, only applies to the act of smoking. Once the molecule is in your blood, brain science tells us it has rejuvenating properties in re brain cells. And the brain science says the molecule operates to reverse a major death/deteriorating disease i.e Alzheimer. You do realize that disease is a major detriment to life extention, don't you?

It was the overall impression of your diet and tone of your response (you were educating Michael about vegetable consumption without providing any scientific data, your reason for not consuming them seems childish, etc.) that made me think you don't know all the necessary basics . Sorry if I'm mistaken.

Apology accepted. And I was educating Michael in so far as he was unaware that all the same good micronutrients that are in veggies are also on fruit. Veggie/fruit/nut/seed are all from plants. They are all vegetable matter. The distinction is more culinary than scientific. Now fruit has been given a bad wrap because of its high glycemic index. I will address this below to my response to #3.

2) Yes, I want you to rely on cronometer or at least your own calculations regarding nutrients. I really hope you're not serious about judging your health only or mostly by "homeostatic markers and feelings of well being" instead of scientific fact.

We have done this since we evolved from single celled bacteria millions of years ago. How long has the cronometer been working again?

3) You should know there's a lot of controversy regarding fructose and fruits in general. Dried fruit is basically candy. I hope you do know there are different kinds of carbs, so obviously there will be a difference.

Actually the sugar molecule the body makes during carb digestion is the same whether you eat swiss chard or swiss chocolate. The swiss chard is just watered down (if you know what i mean). So the question really is about the speed of absorbtion. Swiss chard is said to be healthier because it does not cause a sugar then insulin spike (which is very unhealthy). The great thing about fat is that binds to sugar molecules and thus will slow down the glycemic reaction.

So, had you asked, you would have found out that I consume my protein first, then all the fat and only then do i eat my carbs. These macronutrients (that are loaded with micronutrients) combine in my stomach and are digested together. No insulin spike.

Did you notice that this was prompted by your own outrageous claim? "The foundation comes from proper macro nutrient distribution. Your body is a protein syhthesizing machine, mind. No amount of veggies will make up for a macro nutrient deficiency."

I don't make outrageous claims. I stand by that statement 100%. The fact you think it is outrageous demonstrates your lack of understanding. Your body must have the four basic macronutrients to survive: protein, fat, carbs and water. If you choose the right macronutrients and administer them wisely, the micronutrients come naturally in the food. For the most part this is true. But I like to supplement just to top off the vitamins/minerals I may not get enough of.

[ozmonster]

3) You should know there's a lot of controversy regarding fructose and fruits in general. Dried fruit is basically candy. I hope you do know there are different kinds of carbs, so obviously there will be a difference.

Antioxidant and micronutrient quality of fruit and root vegetables from the Indian subcontinent and their comparative performance with green leafy vegetables and fruits

^{http://www3.intersci...933523/abstract}


So you see, there is really no distinction between fruits and vegetables with regard to micronutrient value. fruits just have more sugar molecules and are absorbed faster (which is a separate issue and easily remedied as i have pointed out in a previous post). So this fruit bashing you'all engage in has no foundation in science, whatsoever.

Edited by ozmonster, 07 December 2008 - 07:56 PM.

[kismet]

I don't make outrageous claims. I stand by that statement 100%. The fact you think it is outrageous demonstrates your lack of understanding. Your body must have the four basic macronutrients to survive: protein, fat, carbs and water. If you choose the right macronutrients and administer them wisely, the micronutrients come naturally in the food. For the most part this is true. But I like to supplement just to top off the vitamins/minerals I may not get enough of.

I just think that both micro- and macro-nutrients are equally important, very important that is. This is where cronometer and such can be helpful.
A 'feeling of well-being' is very important, but in no way the only marker or a completely authorative marker when it comes to health. Many people eating 'unhealthy diets' can feel quite well and healthy for some time, due to various reasons e.g. the mind deceiving the body, damage taking some time to accumulate or maybe endorphine release due to sugar over-consumption?
The point being made, was that you should not rely on one or the other, but both science and feelings! In general feeling healthy on a well-established, scientifically proven, controlled (e.g. cronometer) diet seems safer to me than just feeling healthy.

Edited by kismet, 12 December 2008 - 02:52 PM.

[ozmonster]

I don't make outrageous claims. I stand by that statement 100%. The fact you think it is outrageous demonstrates your lack of understanding. Your body must have the four basic macronutrients to survive: protein, fat, carbs and water. If you choose the right macronutrients and administer them wisely, the micronutrients come naturally in the food. For the most part this is true. But I like to supplement just to top off the vitamins/minerals I may not get enough of.

I just think that both micro- and macro-nutrients are equally important, very important that is. This is where cronometer and such can be helpful.
A 'feeling of well-being' is very important, but in no way the only marker or a completely authorative marker when it comes to health. Many people eating 'unhealthy diets' can feel quite well and healthy for some time, due to various reasons e.g. the mind deceiving the body, damage taking some time to accumulate or maybe endorphine release due to sugar over-consumption?
The point being made, was that you should not rely on one or the other, but both science and feelings! In general feeling healthy on a well-established, scientifically proven, controlled (e.g. cronometer) diet seems safer to me than just feeling healthy.

I can dig it. Thanks.

But I still assert that we start with making sure we have proper macro distribution and then, and only then, can we look into micro.

If you cut out any given micro-nutrient, the body can likely adjust for the most part.

However, if you cut out protein altogether, or carbs, or fat, or water, you will die sooner rather than later.

And remember, ALL macronutrients contain micronutrients, with rare exceptions.

[VictorBjoerk]

If you are eating 1700 kcals a day and stand 6'3 tall you would starve to death and not weigh 160 pounds.

If you weigh 160 pounds at 6'3 you are not doing calorie restriction, just avoiding obesity.

In the cr way a moderate amount of protein is recommended. However some recommend a lot of protein.

Stay away from fruit and instead eat berries and vegetables.

The dangers of saturated fat is overestimated.

how long have you been doing cr?

[ozmonster]

If you are eating 1700 kcals a day and stand 6'3 tall you would starve to death and not weigh 160 pounds.

If you weigh 160 pounds at 6'3 you are not doing calorie restriction, just avoiding obesity.

Not sure what you are saying here. might be the translation. Please explain.

I am at 164 now. I consume 1700 kcal/day. I have been hardcore for the last 5 months but started CR 8 months ago. Starting weight 8 months ago was 220. I have been below 170 for probably 6 months. Every week or so I have an extra meal (580 calories) as my weight drifts down towards 160.

But I assure you, I am not dead. Nor am I obese.

In the cr way a moderate amount of protein is recommended. However some recommend a lot of protein.

Stay away from fruit and instead eat berries and vegetables.

30% protein is not a lot, it is what is necessary. otherwise i may starve to death.

And again ... fruits, berries, nuts veggies ARE ALL vegetable matter. I repeat, fruits, berries, nuts, seeds veggies ARE ALL vegetable matter. All of them contain the building blocks of life in the form of micronutrients.

[ozmonster]

UPDATE:

had to increase caloric intake to about 1850 x 2 weeks. As I would dip below 160 lbs., i would begin to go ketonic (health effects: excessive urination, fatigue, increased ketones in urine, high urine ph (if vegetarian), dry skin). Even with this increase, I still have to ad about 600 calories per week to maintain current weight of 168. Now use methyl B12, super nutrition multi (1/4 dose), and increased my D3 to 3000 x 3 months. Cut coffee intake by 1/2 x 2months. No other changes.

[JLL]

I'd be interested in reading more about the idea that the order in which you eat protein, fat and carbs is important. How long should the breaks be?

[ozmonster]

How long should the breaks be?

There really should be no breaks. You don't want to take the chance of the pyloric sphincter opening before you eat everything. It is very important for macronutrients to combine in the stomach. However, the macronutrient, water, should not be ingested for 20 minutes after meal to allow the stomach acids and digestive enzymes to get started before dilution.

So ingest protein slowly, then ingest fat slowly, then carbs slowls. enjoy, savor and chew each bite (if you are practicing CR this will be easy). wait 20 minutes, then drink water. fat will act as the glue to bind all macronutrients together to be digested together. optimum fuel for the body.

Edited by ozmonster, 13 March 2009 - 02:03 AM.