49 replies to this topic

[Vgamer1]

http://www.vhemt.org/

I just thought this was interesting just to show how varied people's opinions are. One one end of the spectrum is imminst and on the other is VHEMT. What a world.

[brokenportal]

A lot of us support both. Maybe not to their same extreme. If the population stayed at about 5 or 6 billion for now that would be alright with me. Then when we have the technology to be sure we can support a 50 or 100 billion person population then we can do that.

[rwac]

A lot of us support both. Maybe not to their same extreme. If the population stayed at about 5 or 6 billion for now that would be alright with me. Then when we have the technology to be sure we can support a 50 or 100 billion person population then we can do that.

Technology doesn't appear out of thin air, you know.
It will be developed as necessary.

Personally, I'm a techno-optimist when it comes to both Life Extension & supporting larger populations.

[AaronCW]

A lot of us support both. Maybe not to their same extreme. If the population stayed at about 5 or 6 billion for now that would be alright with me. Then when we have the technology to be sure we can support a 50 or 100 billion person population then we can do that.

People make the decision of whether to procreate based on a wide range of factors, and population levels will always have an influence in respect to economics. I don't think extreme overpopulation will ever be an issue, and I don't think it will be something that people will think about as an explicit factor in the decision to procreate.

This group seems to represent the full expression of nihilistic environmentalism, and I would be careful not to lend your support to a philosophy that values the non-existence of the only known entity capable of valuing. The idea that the earth somehow could have value outside of the context of humans valuing it is absurd, it seems to me that the movement has deeper roots in the hatred of humanity than in the love of anything outside of it.

[forever freedom]

I also think that humans should be extinct, giving rise to posthumans

[brokenportal]

The idea that the earth somehow could have value outside of the context of humans valuing it is absurd,

I try to tell people that all the time to little avail. That is exactly it.

[Vgamer1]

I also think that humans should be extinct, giving rise to posthumans

Ding ding ding. We have a winner!!

[Mind]

At least they are calling for voluntary action.

Unfortunately, this theme of humans being a cancer/disease/pest on the earth has spread quite a bit and has appeared in the Imminst forums from time-to-time. I don't like how some people devalue human life so much. A person can be for clean energy, conservation, a low-environmental-impact future without having to resort to denigrating the entire human race as a disease. I see it as a dangerous meme that needs to be checked.

[cyborgdreamer]

This group seems to represent the full expression of nihilistic environmentalism, and I would be careful not to lend your support to a philosophy that values the non-existence of the only known entity capable of valuing. The idea that the earth somehow could have value outside of the context of humans valuing it is absurd, it seems to me that the movement has deeper roots in the hatred of humanity than in the love of anything outside of it.

I mostly agree but I think conscious animals can value things, albeit on a primative, hedonistic level. Of course, killing humans (or deliberately letting them die of aging) to protect animals is both twisted and unnecessary. There are better ways to keep animals happy.

[Cyberbrain]

[quote name='http://www.vhemt.org/']Phasing out the human race by voluntarily ceasing to breed will allow Earth's biosphere to return to good health.[/quote]
So letting the human species die out so the earth can survive is a good thing?

lol, I'd rather destroy the earth and save the human species then to let it die.

[Ben Simon]

At least they are calling for voluntary action.

Unfortunately, this theme of humans being a cancer/disease/pest on the earth has spread quite a bit and has appeared in the Imminst forums from time-to-time. I don't like how some people devalue human life so much. A person can be for clean energy, conservation, a low-environmental-impact future without having to resort to denigrating the entire human race as a disease. I see it as a dangerous meme that needs to be checked.

Agreed. It's almost the default position in some circles. It's totally lame and intellectually lazy. Humankind is a credit to evolution, for what we are and what we may one day make of ourselves.

[niner]

At least they are calling for voluntary action.

Unfortunately, this theme of humans being a cancer/disease/pest on the earth has spread quite a bit and has appeared in the Imminst forums from time-to-time. I don't like how some people devalue human life so much. A person can be for clean energy, conservation, a low-environmental-impact future without having to resort to denigrating the entire human race as a disease. I see it as a dangerous meme that needs to be checked.

Agreed. It's almost the default position in some circles. It's totally lame and intellectually lazy. Humankind is a credit to evolution, for what we are and what we may one day make of ourselves.

Yes, I am of this mind as well. Mostly, anyway. I think the world would be a better place, and humans would be better off, if there were about a billion of us instead of six times as many. If some day in the future we get to the point that technology expands the carrying capacity of the world, and people really want to reproduce more, then that's great, but for now we have more people than we need, IMHO. The idea that humans are special because we're the only species capable of valuing seems a bit off to me. Almost hubristic, or something. If we really "phased out" humans, then where would the world be? We would just have to endure another ten or fifty or a hundred million years of "nasty, brutish, and short" before a new intelligent species arose, and made all the same stupid mistakes we did on our way to today. I think it would be way better if we didn't blow this amazing opportunity.

[FunkOdyssey]

The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement... sounds like a fun group eh? I bet those guys don't get many New Years Eve invitations.

But there is good news: as they age, fail to reproduce, and welcome death, their meme will die right along with them. Problem solved!

[eternaltraveler]

But there is good news: as they age, fail to reproduce, and welcome death, their meme will die right along with them. Problem solved!

you mean like the catholic priesthood

memes don't need their hosts to reproduce if there are fresh hosts to infect.

[brokenportal]

The idea that humans are special because we're the only species capable of valuing seems a bit off to me.

Well, I mean what if we could come back after a potential end of the universe and listen to a narrator go over a summary of it. If there were no intelligent beings like humans then what would they talk about? "And the amimals of the earth, the ducks, the bears, the giraffes and so on walked around for a couple million years. They died off. The rest of the planets spun on, mixing their various gases together and colliding from time to time." If thats all that happens and then the universe ends then who cares?

But if it goes something like, "and then the humans all but erased the plague of ignorance that fell upon their species by reaching indefinite life spans. This also brought a sense of unity to the world as they all but ended their ritual of war and accelerated their drive to pioneer all of existence. They managed to colonize 8 billion 732 million planets in their time, mastering the use of worm holes, pioneering the effects of submersable virtual reality and discovering the nature of infinity. The humans catalogued 2 million planets full of libraries of knowledge, they learned to live in peace with their amazingly intelligent and versatile robot creations, and they did many other amazing things in the reign of the many epochs of the great human race."

and made all the same stupid mistakes we did on our way to today. I think it would be way better if we didn't blow this amazing opportunity.

"same stupid mistakes" seems to be the wrong take on it to me. We are born ignorant, of course we are going to make "mistakes". Even mistakes are glorious. We face challenges and evolve. Most of the ignorance comes because people are born completely ignorant, and have to learn from all their mistakes as they grow, then just when they start getting a handle on knowledge and reality they are killed off and replaced by a new ignorant generation.

Edited by brokenportal, 10 December 2008 - 11:04 PM.

[JediMasterLucia]

The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement... sounds like a fun group eh? I bet those guys don't get many New Years Eve invitations.

But there is good news: as they age, fail to reproduce, and welcome death, their meme will die right along with them. Problem solved!

or they attract new people with a death wish

[brokenportal]

or they attract new people with a death wish

The death meme is viral and was a needed and vital peice of a time period in humanity that is in a transition to a transhuman time period. The life meme is viral to though, and its much stronger. It will eventually over take the death meme. We just have to be diligent in going about our rounds of innoculating people with it.

[niner]

and made all the same stupid mistakes we did on our way to today. I think it would be way better if we didn't blow this amazing opportunity.

"same stupid mistakes" seems to be the wrong take on it to me. We are born ignorant, of course we are going to make "mistakes". Even mistakes are glorious. We face challenges and evolve. Most of the ignorance comes because people are born completely ignorant, and have to learn from all their mistakes as they grow, then just when they start getting a handle on knowledge and reality they are killed off and replaced by a new ignorant generation.

Yes, that's true to a certain extent, but there are books, flash drives, culture, oral history... so the blank slates that are being born today will make a lot of the same stupid mistakes that many of us made (or are making) in our youth, but they probably won't be clamoring to burn witches at the stake. Though not as fast as we might like, our culture and science move forward. If our collective knowledge were to die, that would be a loss of unprecedented proportion.

[brokenportal]

and made all the same stupid mistakes we did on our way to today. I think it would be way better if we didn't blow this amazing opportunity.

"same stupid mistakes" seems to be the wrong take on it to me. We are born ignorant, of course we are going to make "mistakes". Even mistakes are glorious. We face challenges and evolve. Most of the ignorance comes because people are born completely ignorant, and have to learn from all their mistakes as they grow, then just when they start getting a handle on knowledge and reality they are killed off and replaced by a new ignorant generation.

Yes, that's true to a certain extent, but there are books, flash drives, culture, oral history... so the blank slates that are being born today will make a lot of the same stupid mistakes that many of us made (or are making) in our youth, but they probably won't be clamoring to burn witches at the stake. Though not as fast as we might like, our culture and science move forward. If our collective knowledge were to die, that would be a loss of unprecedented proportion.

This has helped me understand a connection between our brains and the universe. Isnt one single brain as or more important than the universe? I mean, it might be more complex. Is it? I mean, what good is an entire universe if its dead? Kind of like what good is a brain if its not alive? We are the life of the universe. We are the eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and sense of touch of the universe. In fact we are the universe peering into itself right? Its like the universe is trying to grow a collective brain, if indeed it is, maybe to try to understand what there is beyond the universe. Wait, we are the universes brain so let me check.. ..yup, its trying to understand whats beyond the universe.

[Heliotrope]

At least they are calling for voluntary action.

Unfortunately, this theme of humans being a cancer/disease/pest on the earth has spread quite a bit and has appeared in the Imminst forums from time-to-time. I don't like how some people devalue human life so much. A person can be for clean energy, conservation, a low-environmental-impact future without having to resort to denigrating the entire human race as a disease. I see it as a dangerous meme that needs to be checked.

Human is no disease, but the best thing that may have happened for earth and beyond, we'd turn it into "computer" like thing and pilot it around, let it gain freedom and be aware. we;re the species that can change environment for the better.

The other meme IS mad, so MAD: Mutually Assured Destruction. It be be MAD for human and earth (+ system and galaxY) , we can extend the span of both.

fight against MAD: Mutually Assured Destruction of planet earth and its dominant species.

No More MAD memes!!

[VictorBjoerk]

Is this some kind of a joke?

[aikikai]

My simple question for the supporters of VHEMT; why don't you kill yourself when you support human extinction? I mean, you can't argue for extinction if you don't set a good example of the idea.

( )

[TheFountain]

With regard to the supposed overpopulation issue. The thing people need to remember is that most people who speak of overpopulation live in congested cities or suburbs, where there is, indeed an overpopulation issue. Not because the world, as a whole, is overpopulated, but because the area they choose to, or by circumstance, must inhabit, tend to be overridden with a population that pushes the capacity of these environments.

New york city alone has more inhabitants than the states of Iowa, Montana, Wyoming, Alaska and Missouri all put together. That is New york City, not new york state, mind you. The populations of these other states are spread out a lot more sparsely, I promise you. Visit wyoming whenever you have a chance. Another thing that people do not take into account is the fact that two thirds of the earth is ocean. If we could build underwater habitats we could support a population 500 times that of what we current have.

If we could build underground habitats we could support a population 2000 times that of this estimate. Even with the current land masses, we could support approximately 20 times as many people and still have plenty of room to breathe and for privacy IF we spread habitats out evenly instead of concentrating all economic activity in one of many specifically zoned areas, like major cities. The truth of the matter is, the technology to build underwater habitats is available, the technology to build super structures, both above and below the surface of the earth, is there.

The thing holding us back is this limited western economy. Greed will get you cars, houses, fortunes. But it will seldom get you progress. For that you need cooperation, respect for your environment, and a mutual incentive for surviving beyond our established perameters. The world is not overpopulated at all. We simply need to deal with our population in a more all encompassing, compassionate way that does not lead to hording, but to cooperation and respect.

[brokenportal]

Good point about there being more people in New York city than in many states combined.

The population question always seemed short sited to me, as it does most of you, but I never was able to convey exactly why I think the question is stupid, and now I think I found the semi obvious phrasing for it.

Lets say that time they speak of when the Earth is just too overpopulated were happening right now. There were so many people that the average income for everybody dropped to half of what it was. People could only afford half of what they have. Gasp, they only have 20 inch tvs and 10,000 dollar cars. Gasp, they can only afford enough food to throw away part of it when they are finished instead of 2/3rds of it etc..... People are only allowed to have one kid, and if they try to have more than that the citizens help prosecute them because they dont want people having more kids than is allowed and taking away from their already diminished paychecks.

Thats the world of "over population" that the deathists are talking about avoiding. Ok, so if that were happening today, then that doesnt have anything to do with stopping indefinite healthy life spans. Lets say that only us current life extensionists still accepted the concept of life extension and we all had it but the deathists still didnt. What are they going to say? Tom and Suzy here are getting ready to have their quota of one baby, one of you life extensionists over here is going to have to die. Of course not. Life extension doesnt have anything to do with over population. It will be over birthing short sited ninnies that will have the problem to deal with.

I blogged an analogy related to this if anybody would care to comment on it. Its here.

[JediMasterLucia]

or they attract new people with a death wish

The death meme is viral and was a needed and vital peice of a time period in humanity that is in a transition to a transhuman time period. The life meme is viral to though, and its much stronger. It will eventually over take the death meme. We just have to be diligent in going about our rounds of innoculating people with it.

eh, the death meme is indeed very strong by some people I know. I am talking at this moment with someone who sees the human race as a plague
this person is very stubborn. *sigh*

Edited by JediMasterLucia, 11 December 2008 - 11:07 PM.

[brokenportal]

or they attract new people with a death wish

The death meme is viral and was a needed and vital peice of a time period in humanity that is in a transition to a transhuman time period. The life meme is viral to though, and its much stronger. It will eventually over take the death meme. We just have to be diligent in going about our rounds of innoculating people with it.

eh, the death meme is indeed very strong by some people I know. I am talking at this moment with someone who sees the human race as a plague
this person is very stubborn. *sigh*

Some of those people have a "Napolean Dynomite" complex as we're calling it. Just avoid those people, they will say anything about anything to make it sound as if they are right. Just convince all the people around them and they will eventually come around, and then claim that they were with the program all along. We are adding ideas like that to a "cpat" combatting the pro aging trance project on lines 36-38 at the google doc of life extension exposure expedition projects.

[REGIMEN]

My simple question for the supporters of VHEMT; why don't you kill yourself when you support human extinction? I mean, you can't argue for extinction if you don't set a good example of the idea.

( )

...which is the draw for anyone with a Grand Idea be it religion, war, Trickle-Down job, etc. They get to point out how everyone should be doing things
correctly" while they get to sit back on the funding that allows their pyramid scheme to perpetuate. "Not what I do, but what I say!", is their mantra.

[Heliotrope]

Human is no disease, but the best thing that may have happened for earth and beyond, we'd turn it into "computer" like thing and pilot it around, let it gain freedom and be aware. we;re the species that can change environment for the better.

The other meme IS mad, so MAD: Mutually Assured Destruction. It be be MAD for human and earth (+ system and galaxY) , we can extend the span of both.

fight against MAD: Mutually Assured Destruction of planet earth and its dominant species.

No More MAD memes!!

I still maintain that death-meme is a MAD meme, absolutely mad, that can accelerate Mutually Assured Destruction of Human & planet EARTH

[Centurion]

The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement... sounds like a fun group eh? I bet those guys don't get many New Years Eve invitations.

But there is good news: as they age, fail to reproduce, and welcome death, their meme will die right along with them. Problem solved!

I think you might be right. Even if I agreed with their notions, Id love to have kids some day, not gonna fight that just for some bizarre ideal.

[Heliotrope]

But there is good news: as they age, fail to reproduce, and welcome death, their meme will die right along with them. Problem solved!

not completely. They'll leave writings and the site, they'll tell friends and some families. ppl'll read their book n stuff, some may end up w/ offspring, gen after gen.

it'll be weaker than our meme