17 replies to this topic

[TheFerret]

Hello everyone,

I've really been enjoying the effects of Alpha-GPC and piracetam to help with memory, articulation and general mental acuity. Normally I suffer from brain fog and I've found that these two help tremendously.

But, I have read that piracetam can amplify the effects of other substances, such as amphetamines.

I believe this is happening with the wellbutrin I take daily. When I take piracetam within the same day as the wellbutrin, my face gets hot and flushed; I get general feelings of restlessness and anxiety, upset stomach, etc.

I continued taking both for several weeks hoping that the symptoms would subside, but unfortunately they did not


I enjoy the effects of both the wellbutrin and the piracetam but it seems the physical symptoms keep me from taking them together.

I was wondering if any of the other racetams could be combined with my wellbutrin that would not produce these unpleasant side effects.

Thanks!

[Mr.Bananas]

How about lowering the wellbutrin dose? Does that help?

[TheFerret]

After browsing around on this forum, and reading more about Wellbutrin, I've decided to stop taking it altogether.

When I first started taking it, I was so pleased with it's anti-depressant qualities I didn't notice the fact that my memoryhas turned non-existent! Not to mention I feel it's dulling my personality.

I guess now basically I'm looking for something to replace it with that will cover my NA and dopamine deficiencies. . . So far modafinil seems to be the leading contender.

I hear the good things about modafinil, but what are the negatives? Does your body develop tolerance? Is it addicting in any way?

[edward]

After browsing around on this forum, and reading more about Wellbutrin, I've decided to stop taking it altogether.

When I first started taking it, I was so pleased with it's anti-depressant qualities I didn't notice the fact that my memoryhas turned non-existent! Not to mention I feel it's dulling my personality.

I guess now basically I'm looking for something to replace it with that will cover my NA and dopamine deficiencies. . . So far modafinil seems to be the leading contender.

I hear the good things about modafinil, but what are the negatives? Does your body develop tolerance? Is it addicting in any way?

Just a word of caution, never stop an antidepressant without talking to your doctor as you don't want your depression coming back, your doctor may want to slowly taper you off the wellbutrin if thats what you decide and slowly add another antidepressant.

As far as modafinil their is some tolerance though not as bad as some stimulants, taking magnesium and zinc at night and taking one day off per week from its use helps. The effects wear off too early in the day at least for me which is a pain because re-dosing later tends to prevent sleep. Wellbutrin is much better in this regard as you have the motivation inducing effects all the time and you can still sleep. Wellbutrin is almost perfect (very sad) accept for that cognitive/memory issue, which many people don't experience..... So be really sure it effects you that waybefore you give up a great motivational antidepressant because the alternatives SSRIs etc. arent as great and pure stimulants are not the greatest solutions. Modafinil can be expensive per month without a prescription and insurance.

[TheFerret]

After browsing around on this forum, and reading more about Wellbutrin, I've decided to stop taking it altogether.

When I first started taking it, I was so pleased with it's anti-depressant qualities I didn't notice the fact that my memoryhas turned non-existent! Not to mention I feel it's dulling my personality.

I guess now basically I'm looking for something to replace it with that will cover my NA and dopamine deficiencies. . . So far modafinil seems to be the leading contender.

I hear the good things about modafinil, but what are the negatives? Does your body develop tolerance? Is it addicting in any way?

Just a word of caution, never stop an antidepressant without talking to your doctor as you don't want your depression coming back, your doctor may want to slowly taper you off the wellbutrin if thats what you decide and slowly add another antidepressant.

As far as modafinil their is some tolerance though not as bad as some stimulants, taking magnesium and zinc at night and taking one day off per week from its use helps. The effects wear off too early in the day at least for me which is a pain because re-dosing later tends to prevent sleep. Wellbutrin is much better in this regard as you have the motivation inducing effects all the time and you can still sleep. Wellbutrin is almost perfect (very sad) accept for that cognitive/memory issue, which many people don't experience..... So be really sure it effects you that waybefore you give up a great motivational antidepressant because the alternatives SSRIs etc. arent as great and pure stimulants are not the greatest solutions. Modafinil can be expensive per month without a prescription and insurance.

Indeed, the wellbutrin is just about perfect in all other aspects besides that one.

I've been taking it for over a year, and only recently had I started connecting the dots as to what had been the cause of my impaired cognitive function. Reading used to be one of my favorite activities prior to starting this medication. Now, even when I can strain myself to read, I get headaches, and I don't retain any information that I take in. It's as though my memory has become a sort of revolving door - Things I wish to learn go in, but nothing sticks! This is very frustrating for me, and since I'm starting college again soon, continuing to function in this manner is simply not an option.

I've been reading a lot on this forum, and of course everyone's opinion is subjective, but what else would you recommend for me? Normally, when I'm not taking wellbutrin, I suffer from low motivation, fatigue, sometimes slightly withdrawn in social situations, and slight depression.

I would take this up with a doctor, but I believe a lot of them don't view the full spectrum of options. A doctor is not very likely to consider a lot of the "alternative" options discussed on this site I don't think, instead sticking with the more well known and researched medications. Not to mention I'm in Iraq at the moment, so I kind of have to figure this out for myself for now. Which I have no problem doing, I have a good understanding of how things affect my body and mood in general.

I already know SSRI's are NOT my cup of tea, having been on a few of them in my younger years.

As I said, it's mostly my dopamine and Noradrenaline areas that need targeting.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Edited by TheFerret, 01 January 2009 - 11:26 PM.

[bgwithadd]

For depression, I really think supplements are your best bet and should be your first stop, not last. St john's wort and lithium orotate help me a lot, and omega 3s do somewhat. Lots of other ones have been shown effective to varying degrees as well, such as ashwaghanda and rhodiola rosea. I've gone from deep depression for 20+ years to no problems at all just from supplements.

I do take some wellbutrin, too, but I take wellbutrin but more because it ramps up my motivation quite a bit than for its antidepressive effects, though it does help with that in a roundabout way. It seems it mostly helps with depression only at a high enough dose to cause some other side effects, though.

You might be blaming wellbutrin incorrectly. I suspect that's more likely because of the timeframe here. Too much choline will immediately put you into a brain fog.

[TheFerret]

For depression, I really think supplements are your best bet and should be your first stop, not last. St john's wort and lithium orotate help me a lot, and omega 3s do somewhat. Lots of other ones have been shown effective to varying degrees as well, such as ashwaghanda and rhodiola rosea. I've gone from deep depression for 20+ years to no problems at all just from supplements.

I do take some wellbutrin, too, but I take wellbutrin but more because it ramps up my motivation quite a bit than for its antidepressive effects, though it does help with that in a roundabout way. It seems it mostly helps with depression only at a high enough dose to cause some other side effects, though.

You might be blaming wellbutrin incorrectly. I suspect that's more likely because of the timeframe here. Too much choline will immediately put you into a brain fog.

No, it's not the timing, I've been taking wellbutrin for over a year, and it's been affecting me thusly since I first started taking it. I just never made the connection because initially I was so pleased with it's effect on my energy level and mood I wasn't noticing that particular side effect. I only started experimenting with piracetam and Choline in the last few months.

The rhodiola REALLY interests me from the accounts I've read on the internet, it basically touches on the areas I feel my body needs help in. The only drawback though is some people report that it stops working after a while. I'm looking for something that will fit me on a permanent basis.

[edward]

For depression, I really think supplements are your best bet and should be your first stop, not last. St john's wort and lithium orotate help me a lot, and omega 3s do somewhat. Lots of other ones have been shown effective to varying degrees as well, such as ashwaghanda and rhodiola rosea. I've gone from deep depression for 20+ years to no problems at all just from supplements.

I do take some wellbutrin, too, but I take wellbutrin but more because it ramps up my motivation quite a bit than for its antidepressive effects, though it does help with that in a roundabout way. It seems it mostly helps with depression only at a high enough dose to cause some other side effects, though.

You might be blaming wellbutrin incorrectly. I suspect that's more likely because of the timeframe here. Too much choline will immediately put you into a brain fog.

No, it's not the timing, I've been taking wellbutrin for over a year, and it's been affecting me thusly since I first started taking it. I just never made the connection because initially I was so pleased with it's effect on my energy level and mood I wasn't noticing that particular side effect. I only started experimenting with piracetam and Choline in the last few months.

The rhodiola REALLY interests me from the accounts I've read on the internet, it basically touches on the areas I feel my body needs help in. The only drawback though is some people report that it stops working after a while. I'm looking for something that will fit me on a permanent basis.

You could talk to your doctor about Cymbalta, yes its an ADD drug, but its a non stimulant, increase norepinephrine (reuptake inhibitor) in the prefrontal cortex and dopamine by some secondary means. It is actually a very good antidepressant by itself. See similar drug Reboxetine which is used in Europe for the same thing. I took this awhile and it was very good, no depression, no anxiety, motivation to spare, cognitive boost.... only catch is for me terrible sexual side effects. Apparently this only happens to a minority of men so if I were you I would give it a shot. Or you could go for Effexor or Cymbalta but those are even more prone to side effects.

[FunkOdyssey]

You could talk to your doctor about Cymbalta, yes its an ADD drug, but its a non stimulant, increase norepinephrine (reuptake inhibitor) in the prefrontal cortex and dopamine by some secondary means. It is actually a very good antidepressant by itself. See similar drug Reboxetine which is used in Europe for the same thing. I took this awhile and it was very good, no depression, no anxiety, motivation to spare, cognitive boost.... only catch is for me terrible sexual side effects. Apparently this only happens to a minority of men so if I were you I would give it a shot. Or you could go for Effexor or Cymbalta but those are even more prone to side effects.

I think you meant to suggest Strattera, not Cymbalta. How does strattera compare to wellbutrin?

[edward]

You could talk to your doctor about Cymbalta, yes its an ADD drug, but its a non stimulant, increase norepinephrine (reuptake inhibitor) in the prefrontal cortex and dopamine by some secondary means. It is actually a very good antidepressant by itself. See similar drug Reboxetine which is used in Europe for the same thing. I took this awhile and it was very good, no depression, no anxiety, motivation to spare, cognitive boost.... only catch is for me terrible sexual side effects. Apparently this only happens to a minority of men so if I were you I would give it a shot. Or you could go for Effexor or Cymbalta but those are even more prone to side effects.

I think you meant to suggest Strattera, not Cymbalta. How does strattera compare to wellbutrin?

Yes, I meant Strattera (atomoxetine). First off you have to give it two weeks and ramp up slowly, you will feel something from the first dose but there will be a period of time where it seems to make you tired, perhaps norepinephrine burn out. This is temporary though. After that the mental energy is comparable to Wellbutrin however it doesn't have that "physical" energy aspect that Wellbutrin always gave me. You will also know in a couple of weeks whether you are one of the unlucky ones who gets sexual side effects from Strattera.

[bgwithadd]

I had immediate painful orgasm + urinary retention + dangerously high bp when I tried strattera. Plus, it's very expensive. There is a cheaper drug that has fewer side effects that works in a similar fashion but I forget its name.

[VampIyer]

I'll add my anecdotal experience with wellbutrin.

I've been on 150mg x 2 Wellbutrin SR for ~10 weeks. I'm also on 10mg ambien.

I'm not sure what is causing my decreased cognitive performance, but I've suspected the wellbutrin for some time now.

Examples: I'm great at the Dual N-back game. I picked it up on the 1st try probably because I had done similar exercises in my youth. This was usually the case with cognitive games + IQ tests + standardized tests.
My performance was better a few years ago. However, for the past 6+ years I have had a seemingly linear decline in cognitive performance which has reflected the state of my health. (significant variable) The aggregate loss of cognitive function was large, but the experience was gradual.

Now: After starting wellbutrin/ambien there has been a sudden and dramatic drop in my cognitive performance greater than that of the past 6 years. The Dual N-back game is impossible. Reading comprehension (even with leisure reading), learning, memory, and verbal fluency have uh...uh... see? WTH is that? I'm having so much difficulty writing this post when I should be able to continuously write an "A" level paper for nearly any subject with little to no effort or planning (for any UC school). I'm supposed to be some sort of highly skilled E.Engineer, but I can't remember a damned thing. I'm not only referring to memory of specifics (at which I was admittedly great), but also to basic concepts which I should to be able to fully explain to anyone. There is no way I can work out any complex math proofs/logic anymore.

I don't understand what the hell is going on, but I'll be notifying my psychiatrist of these changes. He had shared his research papers and a psychiatric drug review. He'll be interested in this experience I'm sure.

Hopefully I'll find a substitute for the Wellbutrin so I can rule out ambien or an unknown cause.

On a high note: it does seem to improve energy levels slightly.

Edit: Resting heart rate increased from 50-60 to 70-75. BP slightly increased.

Edited by VampIyer, 05 January 2009 - 02:53 AM.

[TheFerret]

Strattera, I'll look into that one. Any further suggestions? 

[TheFerret]

Hey guys -

Still awaiting further cost-effective suggestions to combat my low energy/motivation and low sociability. . .

Provigil REALLY sounds like a winner to me thus far, but I'm concerned about the price and the authenticity of the cources I would need to get it from.

Any suggestions along the lines of a substance like this would be greatly appreciated. . . MAOI inhibitors (deprenyl) EXCLUDED!

Thanks!

[Orajel]

Its no surprise that wellbutrin can produce some positive cognitive effects. I was on it for 2 years, and stopped taking it about 2 months ago. Since I've stopped taking it, I've noticed a decrease in my anxiety (thats why I stopped) and a little bit less energy. I've been told by various doctors that wellbutrin can induce neurogenesis, and while I was taking it, I was able to complete college level developmental psychology class, with a grade of over 100%, with ease. I'm not trying to toot my own horn or anything, but wellbutrin definately added some sort of mental power I didn't know I had. So what I'm wondering is, since I still have a bunch, would it be helpful if I took it just on days that I have exams? Anybody have experience using wellbutrin once in a while?

also, it should be noted that I noticed no improvement in memory. I did, however, notice improvement in focus, concentration, and overall reasoning abilities. I was suffering from depression and some drug-induced cognitive issues before starting wellbutrin, so someone with a normal brain may not see the kind of improvement I saw. 2 years later, I'm confident my brain is back to normal, so is it possible I wouldn't see any improvement from using it infrequently?

Edited by Orajel, 05 March 2012 - 11:39 PM.

[tritium]

The cognitive decline which some people noticed may be due to Wellbutrin's anticholinergic effect and/or its inhibition of the dopamine transporter.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14550679
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10991997
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9862757

[tritium]

Bupropion, an atypical antidepressant, induces endoplasmic reticulum stress and caspase-dependent cytotoxicity in SH-SY5Y cells

[Jq82]

Two cents here: I scripted up on this(150xr) today after having taken a break for almost 6+ months. Mostly for the symptoms OP mentioned, all back and worse than ever...the bupropion always functioned
well in my system -I just hate the idea of an "antidepressant"...I've tried adjusting my supp regimen but that only helps short term...than I'm irritable beyond acceptable levels...

rather not, but for now...maybe the most consistent, cost effective solution...?

speaking of the OP: Why so desperate to hold on to the Piracetam? Or even the Alpha GPC...there are down sides to both along with the up sides...?