29 replies to this topic

[zoolander]

I noticed something the other day. On most days I will have a high protein, no added carb breakfast. The large majority of the time it takes the form of a shake similar to the one below. Sometimes I will have a large breakfast of eggs, salmon, spinach, tomato and so on however, no added carbs. One day last week I got up and did not sleep that well. I was feeling a little lazy and has an egg jaffle. For the rest of the day I felt very fatigued and tired. This was so far removed from how I feel on my high protein days and made me realise how draining the carbs can be on me, especially in the morning.

Anyhow, I thought I would post my morning shake. This really gets me going. It usually keeps me going for a good 4 hours or so.

first on waking:
250mL Grapefruit juice with
1 scoop Green Defense (Jarrow)
+ morning supps

45-60 after: Morning Shake (all ingredients mixed together with bamix)
60g whey protein isolate, research grade, just plain protein with no flavours of additives (Alacen 895)
100g frozen Blueberries
20g powdered raw almonds (powdered with bamix)
20g extra virgin coconut oil
1 scoop of Berry High (Jarrow)
1.5g Oligofructose
1.5g Barley Beta Glucan
1.0g Glucomannan

I replaced 20mL of EVOO with the coconut oil ths morning for the first time. Tasted great! That's why I decided to post it. You gotta try the above shake.

Edited by zoolander, 05 January 2009 - 10:34 PM.
changed no CHO to no added CHO

[DukeNukem]

I noticed something the other day. On most days I will have a high protein, no carb breakfast. The large majority of the time it takes the form of a shake similar to the one below. Sometimes I will have a large breakfast of eggs, salmon, spinach, tomato and so on however, no real carbs. One day last week I got up and did not sleep that well. I was feeling a little lazy and has an egg jaffle. For the rest of the day I felt very fatigued and tired. This was so far removed from how I feel on my high protein days and made me realise how draining the carbs can be on me, especially in the morning.

Anyhow, I thought I would post my morning shake. This really gets me going. It usually keeps me going for a good 4 hours or so.

first on waking:
250mL Grapefruit juice with
1 scoop Green Defense (Jarrow)
+ morning supps

45-60 after: Morning Shake (all ingredients mixed together with bamix)
60g whey protein isolate, research grade, just plain protein with no flavours of additives (Alacen 895)
100g frozen Blueberries
20g powdered raw almonds (powdered with bamix)
20g extra virgin coconut oil
1 scoop of Berry High (Jarrow)
1.5g Oligofructose
1.5g Barley Beta Glucan
1.0g Glucomannan

I replaced 20mL of EVOO with the coconut oil ths morning for the first time. Tasted great! That's why I decided to post it. You gotta try the above shake.

Looks good, Zoo, but IMO a little high on the whey -- I'd reduce it to 40 grams, add 5 grams BCAAs, and cut the blueberries to 50 grams (if you want to add more berries, add another one on top of the blueberries, to increase the variety--like raspberries). Also, why not add 5 grams creatine? And, I'd still add about 5 grams of EVOO, even with the 20 grams EVCO. If you have access to powered hazelnuts, I'd recommend 10g, along with 10g of the almond powder. Hazelnuts have more monounsaturated oil than almost any nut (macadamia nuts are #1, but a lot more expensive), and it's just a good idea anyway to have the variety.

Your shake and mine have a lot in common. Mine doesn't have any berries, nor nut powders (I eat a handful of home made sprouted mixed nuts daily), but I do add AOR's Essential Mix (50% less than the full scoop), BCAAs, creatine (5g), that Diamond/Epicor animal feed (2g), a liquid cal/mag, 6-7 grams Berry Green (New Chapter) powder, and EV palm oil (3-4g). Sometimes my base is water, and sometimes I use 50/50 goat milk & water.

[DukeNukem]

BTW, on the Green Defense, I've just not seen a compelling reason to consume grasses. That's why I love Berry Green. And it almost tastes good.

[zoolander]

Considering what I do for a living i.e scientist, I've been rather lazy in reducing it down piece by piece to maximise the value of the overall. I consume the higher amounts of whey mainly for the appetite suppressant effect. It has often been cited (1,2) that the appetite suppressing effects of protein occur when their is an excess of protein above and beyond the requirement of protein synthesis. The excess protein/amino acids stimulate various processes (both in the periphery and centrally) that inhibit food intake.

Thanks for the recommendations Dukes.

I only use water in my shakes.

I have BCAAs, Creatine and a few other things on hand. I can powder the hazelnuts, macadamias and almonds fresh each couples of days or so. It literally takes 10 seconds with the bamix.

Cheers for the heads up re. EVCO and the other smaller chain saturated fatty acids.

One final note, my colon rules at the moment.

1. Westerterp-Plantenga, M.S., et al., High protein intake sustains weight maintenance after body weight loss in humans. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord, 2004. 28(1): p. 57-64
2. Diepvens, K., D. Haberer, and M. Westerterp-Plantenga, Different proteins and biopeptides differently affect satiety and anorexigenic/orexigenic hormones in healthy humans. Int J Obes (Lond), 2008. 32(3): p. 510-8.

Edited by zoolander, 04 January 2009 - 03:47 AM.

[DukeNukem]

Considering what I do for a living i.e scientist, I've been rather lazy in reducing it down piece by piece to maximise the value of the overall. I consume the higher amounts of whey mainly for the appetite suppressant effect. It has often been cited (1,2) that the appetite suppressing effects of protein occur when their is an excess of protein above and beyond the requirement of protein synthesis. The excess protein/amino acids stimulate various processes (both in the periphery and centrally) that inhibit food intake.

Thanks for the recommendations Dukes.

I only use water in my shakes.

I have BCAAs, Creatine and a few other things on hand. I can powder the hazelnuts, macadamias and almonds fresh each couples of days or so. It literally takes 10 seconds with the bamix.

Cheers for the heads up re. EVCO and the other smaller chain saturated fatty acids.

One final note, my colon rules at the moment.

1. Westerterp-Plantenga, M.S., et al., High protein intake sustains weight maintenance after body weight loss in humans. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord, 2004. 28(1): p. 57-64
2. Diepvens, K., D. Haberer, and M. Westerterp-Plantenga, Different proteins and biopeptides differently affect satiety and anorexigenic/orexigenic hormones in healthy humans. Int J Obes (Lond), 2008. 32(3): p. 510-8.

I suspect that fats are even more satiating than whey (which, in fact, does increase insulin -- PMID: 18679613). That's why I'd cut back a little on the whey, and go higher on the fats/oils.

[Mind]

100g blueberries ~ 12g carbs
20g almonds ~ 5g carbs

Not exactly "no carb", but quite low (and "good carbs")

What I find when I am going very low on carbs for a while is that sugary/carbalicious foods will make me high like some sort of drug, for maybe a half hour or hour, then I feel sluggish. It is quite an amazing reaction. About 5 to 10 years ago, I used to eat and drink a lot more sugar/carbs and it was if my body got used to them and there wasn't much of a reaction.

[DukeNukem]

>>> 100g blueberries ~ 12g carbs

Wow! That's all! My guess would have been a lot higher.

[mitkat]

Thanks for the update on your shake zoo. Great ideas from you and Duke as always, our shakes look quite similar actually except no nuts in mine - I eat several handfuls of almonds everyday, at least a few macadamias and exactly one brazil nut (haha, serious as always). My shake is whey, inulin, various berries, creatine...I'm mixing a small amount of taurine in mine although Krillin had some interesting info against it a while ago re: impaired adrenaline release if I recall correctly, but as a vegetarian I feel it's worth a gram or so. Also recently I added a powdered Ester-C, it's tolerable and I need to finish the bottle.

How is everyone mixing in their Coconut oil? Zoolander? Duke? Bueller?

edit: Mind, I agree with you 100% on the carb/drug tip. Ever since I did my little ketogenic experiment for a few months in the summer I feel I understand more the effects of and have become way more sensitive to carbs. I used to love cereal, but now when I wake up I feel like just looking at it makes me fear the crash.

Edited by mitkat, 05 January 2009 - 10:18 PM.

[zoolander]

I'm not to overly concerned about the very low carbs. I'm just cutting out primary carbs in my diet. You know, breads, grains, rice. So when I say 'no' carbs I was referring to added carbs.

Inulin, Tim? Are you a bit on the gaseous side?

I put my EVCO in a small bowl and sit it in hot water until it melts.

Re. ketogenic diets.....a lot of people mitaken ketogenic diets as being high-protein and virtually no carbs. This is not true because 100g of protein can produce close to 60g of carbohydrates via gluconeogenesis. Ketogenesis is usually achieved when the protein content in at or below 10% of total energy. It should be also noted that ketogenesis can be achieve, depending on the individual, with CHO in the range of 40-200g CHO. (1-4)

1. Coleman, M.D. and S.M. Nickols-Richardson, Urinary ketones reflect serum ketone concentration but do not relate to weight loss in overweight premenopausal women following a low-carbohydrate/high-protein diet. J Am Diet Assoc, 2005. 105(4): p. 608-11.
2. Foster, G.D., et al., A controlled comparison of three very-low-calorie diets: effects on weight, body composition, and symptoms. Am J Clin Nutr, 1992. 55(4): p. 811-7.
3. Lewis, S.B., et al., Effect of diet composition on metabolic adaptations to hypocaloric nutrition: comparison of high carbohydrate and high fat isocaloric diets. Am J Clin Nutr, 1977. 30(2): p. 160-70.
4. Meckling, K.A., et al., Effects of a hypocaloric, low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss, blood lipids, blood pressure, glucose tolerance, and body composition in free-living overweight women. Can J Physiol Pharmacol, 2002. 80(11): p. 1095-105.

Edited by zoolander, 05 January 2009 - 11:16 PM.

[DukeNukem]

a lot of people mitaken ketogenic diets as being high-protein and virtually no carbs.

Yup. There's really no such thing as a high-protein diet, not in the same way as there can be a high-carb or a high-fat diet. There is no health issue with a high-fat diet exceeding 80% of total cals. But, it's toxic for protein calories to exceed ~35% of total cals. A high-carb diet can exceed 80% total cals, but it would quickly result in unhealthy fat gain, not to mention ongoing hunger. Really, fat is the safest at highest levels by a large margin. It wouldn't surprise me if several days a week I get 70%+ cals from fats/oils.

How is everyone mixing in their Coconut oil?

Like Zoo, I put mine into a glass bowl, then put that bowl into hot water until it melts. And, I often do this starting with a cup of melted EVCO: Once it's liquid, I then add a quarter cup of EV red palm oil (read because of the beta carotene), and two scoops of natural vanilla flavored whey protein powder (no sweetener in the whey). This will cool and harden within an hour, but it will be much soften than normal coconut oil, and easy to spoon out. So, 2-3 times a day I'll put a spoonful onto a square of extra dark (75% cocoa) chocolate, and trust me it's delicious. And totally healthy.

[rwac]

Thanks for the update on your shake zoo. Great ideas from you and Duke as always, our shakes look quite similar actually except no nuts in mine - I eat several handfuls of almonds everyday, at least a few macadamias and exactly one brazil nut (haha, serious as always). My shake is whey, inulin, various berries, creatine...I'm mixing a small amount of taurine in mine although Krillin had some interesting info against it a while ago re: impaired adrenaline release if I recall correctly, but as a vegetarian I feel it's worth a gram or so. Also recently I added a powdered Ester-C, it's tolerable and I need to finish the bottle.

How is everyone mixing in their Coconut oil? Zoolander? Duke? Bueller?

edit: Mind, I agree with you 100% on the carb/drug tip. Ever since I did my little ketogenic experiment for a few months in the summer I feel I understand more the effects of and have become way more sensitive to carbs. I used to love cereal, but now when I wake up I feel like just looking at it makes me fear the crash.

I use coconut milk instead of coconut oil. It has a high percentage of saturated fat(>90%).
But then, I 'm not quite as hardcore as some people ...

[JLL]

My morning smoothie (except every other day, when it's my day/evening smoothie, because I'm doing IF):

100g blackcurrants
50g raspberries
50g strawberries
1 banana

2 tbsp ground flax seeds
1 tbsp sesame seeds
a handful of rolled oats

yoghurt (10% fat) or milk
water

I take my supplements while sippin on this stuff. The milk and banana aren't there for health reasons, they're there just for the taste.

[zoolander]

JLL, it would probably be of more benefit for you to post your morning shake into another thread. This avoids confusion and it's so much easier when the focus is on one topic as opposed to 5 or six different shakes. On top of that, you will get some great recommendations if you start your own thread

[Brainbox]

60g whey protein isolate, research grade, just plain protein with no flavours of additives (Alacen 895)

If I remember correctly, you previously used a protein blend from true protein. I'm in the process of ordering a new supply and was wondering why you switched to another blend / source. A reason I could think of right away is the good documentation of the Alacen 895, but maybe there's more.
I'm currently thinking of switching to a whey / micellar caseïne mix.

[zoolander]

I switched because I can buy the straight whey at a substantially lower cost. Alacen895 is made by Fonterra who are a large Dairy Multinational. They do not sell direct to consumer (I think) however I would recommend people contact their local dairy.

[Centurion]

I switched because I can buy the straight whey at a substantially lower cost. Alacen895 is made by Fonterra who are a large Dairy Multinational. They do not sell direct to consumer (I think) however I would recommend people contact their local dairy.

I will definitely be looking around for a UK source for this stuff. I'm particularly interested in claims it dissolves completely in water without clouding.

[woly]

Hey zoo, what was your reasoning behind adding coconut oil to your shake in place of olive oil?

[zoolander]

I use coconut oil for the medium chain triglycerides/fatty acids.

Medium chain fatty acids do not undergo degradation and re-esterification processes and are directly used in the body to produce energy. Even though coconut oil is almost 100% saturated they are not as 'bad for health' as the long chain saturated fats. As a result of lowering my daily carbohydrate content substantially I added another energy source.

[woly]

Ive been reading a lot of coconut oil lately since everyone on this board has been making the switch but I still can’t find much evidence to support its touted benefits nor evidence that debunk its potential negatives. I found this review, which I have admittedly not read in entirety, but it explores a lot of the effects medium chain triglycerides have on the body. Now perhaps I have interpreted these results incorrectly but two things that stand out is that 1) its effect on weight loss seem very marginal and 2) its effect on raising triglycerides and possibly other cholesterol alterations seem to be a recurring theme.

A couple of human studies taken from the references of the review are:

Plasma lipids and lipoproteins during 6 d of maintenance feeding with long-chain, medium-chain, and mixed-chain triglycerides
This study assessed fasting plasma lipids and lipoproteins and postprandial plasma lipids in healthy male subjects fed liquid-formula diets containing 40% of total energy as long-chain (LCT, primarily C18:1 and C18:2), medium-chain (MCT, C8:0-C10:0), or mixed-chain (structured lipid, STL, mostly C8:0, C10:0, and C22:0) triglycerides for 6 d. None of the diets altered plasma cholesterol concentrations. HDL cholesterol was decreased 14% by the STL diet (P < 0.044) and 15% by the MCT diet (P < 0.004) but was unchanged by the LCT diet. Plasma triglycerides were elevated 42% by the MCT diet (P < 0.006), but were unaltered by either the STL or LCT diets. Neither the STL nor the MCT diets produced changes in fasting lipoprotein lipid composition; however, during the LCT diet, VLDLs became enriched in triglyceride and LDLs became enriched in cholesterol. Postprandial triglyceridemia was significantly greater after subjects consumed the LCT diet than it was after they consumed either the STL or MCT diets, which were similar. Short-term feeding of MCT and STL diets produces significant changes in lipid metabolism. An understanding of the long-term effects of these diets awaits further study.

link

Hyperglyceridemia Resulting from Intake of Medium Chain Triglycerides
Ingestion of medium chain triglycerides in place of calorically equivalent amounts of long chain fats under conditions of isocaloric intake is associated with significant and maintained hyperglyceridemia. Such an effect was not observed under conditions of hypocaloric intake. In the subjects studied, no hypocholesterolemic effect was observed as the result of substitution of medium chain triglycerides for other types of fat.

link

Once again we ask, do the benefits outweigh the potential risks?

Edited by woly, 07 January 2009 - 03:44 AM.

[JLL]

JLL, it would probably be of more benefit for you to post your morning shake into another thread. This avoids confusion and it's so much easier when the focus is on one topic as opposed to 5 or six different shakes. On top of that, you will get some great recommendations if you start your own thread

Sorry. I mistook the thread for "what's your morning power shake".

Woly, there are studies that suggest coconut lowers LDL, VLDL & triglycerides but raises HDL. My understanding is that hydrogenated coconut oil and unrefined coconut oil may have opposite effects.

[zoolander]

Cheers JLL

[woly]

JLL, it would probably be of more benefit for you to post your morning shake into another thread. This avoids confusion and it's so much easier when the focus is on one topic as opposed to 5 or six different shakes. On top of that, you will get some great recommendations if you start your own thread

Sorry. I mistook the thread for "what's your morning power shake".

Woly, there are studies that suggest coconut lowers LDL, VLDL & triglycerides but raises HDL. My understanding is that hydrogenated coconut oil and unrefined coconut oil may have opposite effects.

Yes i have seen this link before but to me it just adds to the controversy rather than dispelling it. Additionatly, a few questions that i have about those studies are:
1) in the Trinidad et al study, they used coconut flour. coconut flour has a huge fiber content with a relatively small MCT content, this may have accounted for some/all of the effect it had on cholesterol levels. Coconut flour contains ~14% oil AFAIK so if they were supplementing the meals with 15% and 25% coconut flour then that would have made for a pretty small oil content right?
2) the Cox et al, they used a sequential study design (same subjects fed each meal with a washout period in between) depending on the order it would seem pretty possible for a bit of an overlap in the effects of each oil.
Now compared to the studies that were in the review i posted, they seem like they do not have as strong a study design (not that the ones i posted were at all perfect either).

[Ben]

Big question for you Zoo: When you've finished blending your ingredients and have let the mixture sit for a little while does the fat come to the surface, like chicken soup?

[woly]

Hey zoo, it sounds like youve made a massive diet overhaul. itd be really interesting to see your updated diet regimen if you have some time.

[zoolander]

Big question for you Zoo: When you've finished blending your ingredients and have let the mixture sit for a little while does the fat come to the surface, like chicken soup?

I drink it immediately so I have witnessed the fat settling on the surface as yet

[zoolander]

I will get to answering questions about the MCT's and my diet some time soon

Edited by zoolander, 18 January 2009 - 10:23 PM.

[AlbertN]

But, it's toxic for protein calories to exceed ~35% of total cals.

With a 2000 calorie diet, 35% of calories = 700. At 4.2 calories per gram of protein you're talking about only 167 grams of protein.

Is the level for toxicity really that low?

Albert

[Skötkonung]

My morning shake:

- 25g chocolate whey protein isolate
- 1 banana
- 2/3 c froze blueberries
- 1/3 c frozen blackberries
- 1 leaf kale, de-stemmed
- 2 tbsp almond butter
- water

Makes roughly two full glasses. I drink one immediately and take the other on my commute.

I'm not concerned about carbohydrate either as I skip anything processed or containing gluten. Plus I am very active, I do enjoy sweet potatoes with my vegetables and beef, though.

[Sillewater]

Mine always changes, but it always includes:

Matcha
Coconut Milk
Almond Butter
Blueberries
Kale/Broccoli/Spinach
Egg Yolk

[mike250]

sadly coconut milk and my stomach don't agree so i use milk for most of my shakes. thanks for the info Zoo