18 replies to this topic

[Lazarus Long]

The other day one of us posted a link to an important discovery. I can't find that thread in particular to give a proper link and acknowledgment but if someone does, please post it.

The reason for this thread is to discuss the possible applications of that discovery. Previously we started a variety of threads that cataloged as many of the longest lived species we could find but some of those are now buried deep in the past but here are a few I did find.

Oldest tree

40,000 year old shrub

Sea Urchin live 200 years



This is the article that got me thinking about the subject again.

Meet the Only Immortal Species on Earth

The subject of that last is a type of jellyfish that appears to be able to trigger a return to polyp phase instead of dying.

Oh they can still be eaten and they still reproduce but they have been around for a very long time because Hayflick limits and mitochondrial aging don't work the same way with them.

So my thought is why can't we test the ability to just re-engineer mitochondria for the moment using what appears to be a gene in this species that can reset the mitochondria in its cells when it goes through its rejuvenation phase?

I can think of a few more good ideas for studying this species and I expect many of you can also, so please contribute these ideas here but for the moment please think about this approach because it might be way of developing a cancer proof cell for specific tissues and organs. The approach would be to design a new type of mitochondria genome that is still compatible with human tissues and then as the stem cell process is developed to grow organ replacements to insert this gene into those organs at initialization of the process.

Approaching the problem this way would allow a dominate genetic match for the nuclear genes with the host but alter the mitochondria genetics and mask that within the DNA of the host. This may also allow many tissues to be replaced with revitalized mitochondria throughout the body by culturing bone marrow and altering the mitochondria during that process before transplanting the bone marrow back into he patient.

By working with such a primitive species there is another advantage, the gene map of the entire genome and the mitochondria are going to extremely simple, hence it should not be an insurmountable task to isolate the specific genes responsible for this phenomenon. Another reason this approach is potentially a very good source of genetic material is the species in question is not that rare and is relatively cheap and easy to locate, isolate, and obtain from the environment.

Lastly, I would even consider a contest for the best paper written from all Imminst users with a true scientific background that develops a practical model and experimental protocol to test this idea or a related one developed inside this thread.

If there is interest in pursuing the idea of such a contest I will discuss it in a different thread, not this one however. Let's not confuse the issues.

[Lazarus Long]

More on Turritopsis nutricula, the immortal hydrozoan. There are a few varieties and the one that may hold the best promise for study is located in the Mediterranean.

Cheating Death: Developmental Biology

wikipedia Turritopsis nutricula

Life Cycle


Abstracts

Reversing the Life Cycle: Medusae Transforming into Polyps and Cell Transdifferentiation in Turritopsis nutricula (Cnidaria, Hydrozoa)

Morphological and ultrastructural analysis of Turritopsis nutricula during life cycle reversal

Distinction of Two Morphotypes of Turritopsis nutricula Medusae (Cnidaria, Hydrozoa, Anthomedusae) in Japan, with Reference to their Different Abilities to Revert to the Hydroid Stage and their Distinct Geographical Distributions

Full text of first article in a PDF

[Prometheus]

If there is interest in pursuing the idea of such a contest I will discuss it in a different thread, not this one however. Let's not confuse the issues.[/i][/size][/font]

Start the thread. My understanding is that Zoolander, for one, has developed a technique for studying one aspect of the biochemistry of mitochondrial function..

[Prometheus]

From a genomics perspective it would only cost $5-$10k to sequence the entire genome of turritopsis. Perhaps imminst could fund the sequencing and write a neat little paper with some comparative genomics, which most accomplished genetics graduate students could participate in..

[Lazarus Long]

If there is interest in pursuing the idea of such a contest I will discuss it in a different thread, not this one however. Let's not confuse the issues.[/i][/size][/font]

Start the thread. My understanding is that Zoolander, for one, has developed a technique for studying one aspect of the biochemistry of mitochondrial function..

I actually already have started the negotiations, the thread is coming. I want some feedback from a few of my peers first.

[Lazarus Long]

From a genomics perspective it would only cost $5-$10k to sequence the entire genome of turritopsis. Perhaps imminst could fund the sequencing and write a neat little paper with some comparative genomics, which most accomplished genetics graduate students could participate in..

I agree with this suggestion though I am uncertain if the cost estimate you give is not a little optimistic. Nevertheless that is an advantageous aspect for a species like this, which should help keep costs down. Mapping its genome and then developing it as a test subject should be no harder than flatworms and perhaps much easier than fruit flies.

[Lazarus Long]

To take the suggestion further Dr. Strange I think there are two separate initiatives that deserve distinct focus, one is to emulate the already occurring interest in matching fund approaches and develop a fund specifically for the purpose of funding the genome map of the target species and second is to develop a set of proposals (experimental protocols) for how to best proceed with that information once it is obtained.

[Forever21]

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=27555

cool indeed

[Lazarus Long]

I should add that the idea of using DNA transcription to insert characteristics from reptiles for example, to prevent cancer, encourage limb regrowth and extend the cellular and mitochondrial life cycle has been discussed before. I have even suggested using genes from chloroplasts transcribed onto mitochondria for a variety of possible benefits but all of those were more complex genomes to start with.

One very exciting advantage here is the simplicity of the genome in question.

[Lazarus Long]

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=27555

cool indeed

BTW thanks for that original reference Forever. Sharing knowledge to stimulate ideas is what we are all about.

[Aphrodite]

Here's a link to some of the research done on long-lived animals with "negligible senescence"

http://www.agelessanimals.org/cv.htm

[Prometheus]

To take the suggestion further Dr. Strange I think there are two separate initiatives that deserve distinct focus, one is to emulate the already occurring interest in matching fund approaches and develop a fund specifically for the purpose of funding the genome map of the target species and second is to develop a set of proposals (experimental protocols) for how to best proceed with that information once it is obtained.

Don't take too long pondering the details .. how many other good ideas have forever vanished in the quicksand of (well-intentioned) deliberation?

Ideas are everywhere but without a champion to see them through they may as well be flights of fancy..

Step 1 - Appoint a champion to the turritopsis project

[treonsverdery]

So my thought is why can't we test the ability to just re-engineer mitochondria

When you view mitochondria they are full of nested membranes known as cristae I think that changing the lipids these membranes are made from will muchly change the amount of free radical leakage as well as the rate of enzyme productivity
bacteria produce the commercial plastic polylactic acid now Perhaps having mitochondria code that cristae be made from either lipid molecules with say twice the usual mass or polylactic acid would create a mitochondria as leakless battery thing


a side idea that compares free radical aging with programmed death is to look for temperature effects on muscle I have read that each 20 degrees Fdoubles the activity of enzymes The core temperature of a mammal at near 100 f with distal temperatures of things like toes at perhaps 80 f suggest that a persons toes age half as rapidly as their psoas muscle. microscopy of tissue as well as mitochondria n telomeres could confirm or deny that If toes really are half as worn out if they are then that is strong support of an enzymatic degradation free radical model If toes are the same cytoage as psoas muscle then tissue aging is more a preprogrammed effect

tissues have localized adaption to cold I have read that siamese cats have colored ear n tail tips as a result of reaction to cold Rockfish have lives of more than 2 centuries this is thought to have to do with less food plus particuluarly cold water

[Prometheus]

Don't take too long pondering the details .. how many other good ideas have forever vanished in the quicksand of (well-intentioned) deliberation?

(... the quicksand strikes again ...)

[astrout]

I should add that the idea of using DNA transcription to insert characteristics from reptiles for example, to prevent cancer, encourage limb regrowth and extend the cellular and mitochondrial life cycle has been discussed before. I have even suggested using genes from chloroplasts transcribed onto mitochondria for a variety of possible benefits but all of those were more complex genomes to start with.

One very exciting advantage here is the simplicity of the genome in question.

HA, I know there may or not be a lot of comic buffs in the room, but isn't that the exact scientific experimentation that leads to Marvel Comics "The Lizard", bane of Spiderman's scientific existence next to doc-oc.
Forgive my geek attack, let's get back to the subject at hand.

I think that first and foremost we are heading into an age of questionable ethics. How do we morally/ethically decide what genetic modifications cross a boundary that is "bad" and who will make that decision?

It's going to be really interesting. I for one hope I become immortal so I can see it all develop Looking forward to my genetic modifications that allow me to grow lots of muscle and trim fat without strenuous workouts.

[technetium]

From a genomics perspective it would only cost $5-$10k to sequence the entire genome of turritopsis. Perhaps imminst could fund the sequencing and write a neat little paper with some comparative genomics, which most accomplished genetics graduate students could participate in..

Has a complete genome sequence been obtained yet for this?

[Lazarus Long]

I haven't had a chance to post a lot lately but this is one discovery that deserves mention and further investigation. It parallels the other threads here that are involved in lysosens. I found it a few weeks ago and had to search for it again; the subject is hi stones. The subject deserves a thread (or more) unto itself but I think it also belongs here as a part of the mechanism subject to manipulation that can extend cell life or allow for better fidelity of replication. Actually there have been a few recent developments that bear close scrutiny that I will list, including a map of epigenetic switches: Scientists unveil map of genome's chemical switches

The subject of histones and the study I am about to reference from the Journal Nature: Cell Biology is particularly important because it is not only about the discovery of a new cellular property, it alters subtly how we understand the process of cell death, by filling in a blank space in our understanding. This discovery also fills a gap in our understanding of mitochondrial function and cell respiration. The following video was made prior to the recent discovery but is useful to help explain the importance of histones in regard to cell gene expression and replication.

Here are some wiki and other references to also help outline what the function and place of histones are in the process.

Histones and Nucleosomes

Histone Sequence Database

Histone Protein Structure

Histone Acetylation

Histones:Wiki


The discovery that lies at the heart of this post involves recognition of a new class of histones that are not as stable as previously thought. This discovery will impact not only how we understand cell replication and development but cell metabolism and oxidation.It could even offer clues to how we might better manipulate telomeres to extend cell life.

Study finds how the body handles histones

Histone levels are regulated by phosphorylation and ubiquitylation-dependent proteolysis

[Penderyn]

http://www.reuters.c...E61G4SC20100217

Is this of any interest to any of you and is this the right thread?


I read in a paper released january 2010 (but I cannot find it again :( ) that they had created a skin stem cell colony bombarded with what they called telomerants and other chemicals. The colony was non cancerous and lived hundreds of times longer than other colonies in the same 'dish'. The colony was still living as of Jan 2010. The thing was they had no idea why this colony had such a long lifespan over the overs, further research was being conducted they claim. The apar was about 30 dollars to read, I only read the background which came with it unfortunately.

Anyone know the link for this paper...I cannot find it anymore with same search criteria, it was led by a prominent female professor at a USA institute I believe.

[babcock]

Here's an article I just found today about scientists who have created immortal RNA.

http://www.dailygala...-test-tube.html

For the first time, scientists have synthesized RNA enzymes – ribonucleic acid enzymes also known as ribozymes - that can replicate themselves without the help of any proteins or other cellular components.These simple nucleic acids can act as catalysts and continue the process indefinitely.

Not an immortal cell per se but a step in the right direction.