26 replies to this topic

[edward]

Seems like an interesting twist. Would reduce total methionine (or at least cycle it (depending on your protein consumption on the up days) which may have a benefit, potentially reduce dietary AGEs (or cycle them allowing your body to catch up), along with the purported benefits such as increased Autophagy, increased SIRT etc.

I recommending reading the WHOLE linked book/article

Furthermore if the very low to no protein days consisted only of fruits and vegetables with a mild CR other benefits could be had.

You could even throw in carb cycling if you wanted. IE high protein days would be high protein high fat low carbs and the low to no protein days could be well pure carbs of course from fruits and vegetables would be optimal.

Give it a read and see what you think.

I am very very very busy with school right now, one class is kicking my butt (first time this has occurred) so I haven't had much time to post on here and may not have much time to follow up

Just an update on my diet adventures. Just got done with a trial of CR using various eating schedules, the warrior diet style eating plan seemed to work the best but I have found that CR at the level to make a difference is just not for me. Everyone remarked at how thin I got sunken cheeks etc. Gym performance tanked. I looked shredded but in a concentration camp way. And D@mn was I COLD ALL THE TIME!!!


***Protein Cycling Diet***
http://knol.google.c...e...&locale=en#

Edited by edward, 04 March 2009 - 01:20 AM.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

Seems like an interesting twist. Would reduce total methionine (or at least cycle it (depending on your protein consumption on the up days) which may have a benefit, potentially reduce dietary AGEs (or cycle them allowing your body to catch up), along with the purported benefits such as increased Autophagy, increased SIRT etc.

...

Just an update on my diet adventures. Just got done with a trial of CR using various eating schedules, the warrior diet style eating plan seemed to work the best but I have found that CR at the level to make a difference is just not for me. Everyone remarked at how thin I got sunken cheeks etc. Gym performance tanked. I looked shredded but in a concentration camp way. And D@mn was I COLD ALL THE TIME!!!


***Protein Cycling Diet***
http://knol.google.c...e...&locale=en#

And the author of that has posted here about it on Feb 23rd... see page 2 of the Autophagy thread:

http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=302880

I'm been doing very similar to this to reduce AGEs.

Edited by frankbuzin, 04 March 2009 - 01:25 AM.

[edward]

Well Im behind in my imminst reading anyway I'd love to hear what everyone thinks of this approach.

[niner]

Well Im behind in my imminst reading anyway I'd love to hear what everyone thinks of this approach.

I think it's brilliant. I think we should all be looking the book over and commenting on it while it's still under construction. It gives you a new way to control autophagy without starvation. I'll have to get my head around eating carbs again, but that's ok. I need to work on that anyway. Regarding your comment about looking shredded but in a concentration camp sort of way, I've got that going on too. (Cold, too!) I really like the way my torso looks, but the rest of me needs more meat. (Well, fat really, but you know what I mean.) I hope you survive school edward. What class is the killer? (If you should see this.)

[edward]

Well Im behind in my imminst reading anyway I'd love to hear what everyone thinks of this approach.

I think it's brilliant. I think we should all be looking the book over and commenting on it while it's still under construction. It gives you a new way to control autophagy without starvation. I'll have to get my head around eating carbs again, but that's ok. I need to work on that anyway. Regarding your comment about looking shredded but in a concentration camp sort of way, I've got that going on too. (Cold, too!) I really like the way my torso looks, but the rest of me needs more meat. (Well, fat really, but you know what I mean.) I hope you survive school edward. What class is the killer? (If you should see this.)

OB/Neonatal Care is kicking my butt its just so foreign. Give me physics, chemistry or calculus any day lol. My end goal in school is Nurse Practitioner or CRNA (Anesthetist). Btw. I went the nursing route rather than Med school due to time/family and financial constraints.

[ta5]

I found this old thread. This seems like a good idea to me. I thought of it myself and searched and found this. I found nothing on pubmed though. I wonder why no one else is studying it?

It seems like a good idea because I want to do two things: promote autophagy to clear out diseased protein for life-extension and disease prevention, but I also want to promote muscle and collagen, and possibly other health benefits that certain amino acids might have. So, it makes perfect sense to alternate between autophagy and higher protein and/or supplementation in order to get the benefits of both.

The book linked to above is impressive. The author suggests avoiding protein 1 to 4 days every week. The free book seems to be gone. Strange, it was just there a couple days ago. I was actually thinking of avoiding protein for 1-2 weeks every 1-2 months. But, from what I remember of the article, the author gives a pretty good argument for his 1-4 days per week.

This isn't my idea of protein cycling, but another interesting variation:
http://www.bodybuild...ng-benefits.htm
The article suggests that a lower-higher protein cycle could actually promote more muscle than constant supplementation.
More links here:
http://www.livestron...n-cycling-diet/

I want to start this. Is anyone else here doing it? Can anyone share more info or additional research?

Thanks.

[JLL]

The protein cycling diet is based on the hypothesis that intermittent fasting increases lifespan -- which it doesn't, unless it includes CR. It might increase autophagy, of course, just like IF might, but as for pure life-extension, I think it's not worth the effort.

[Chupo]

The free book is alive and well. http://proteincyclingdiet.wordpress.com/

You have to access each chapter from this page though. The other links still refer to the defunct Knol. I do a ketogenic version. Instead of starch, I eat vegetables and butter on the protein restricted days. Alzheimer's runs in my family so mega-autophagy wouldn't hurt.

Edited by Chupoman, 11 May 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[ta5]

The protein cycling diet is based on the hypothesis that intermittent fasting increases lifespan -- which it doesn't, unless it includes CR. It might increase autophagy, of course, just like IF might, but as for pure life-extension, I think it's not worth the effort.

Good point. I would say PC is based on the hypothesis that autophagy increases lifespan. IF and PC are based on similar ideas. You suggest that because IF does not increase lifespan, neither will PC. Maybe. It certainly doesn't help support it. I wonder if there could be detrimental effects from IF that would not be shared by PC.

Even if it doesn't increase lifespan, I like the idea of increasing autophagy by just skipping protein occasionally.

I'm surprised you say it's not worth the effort. I see very little effort. Just don't eat meat that day.

I'm skeptical that fast cycling protein, a few days every week, will induce autophagy long enough to do much good. I imagine it's like erosion. If you erode away a thin layer and replace it every few days, you won't get to deeper levels. Is that silly?

[ta5]

The free book is alive and well. http://proteincyclingdiet.wordpress.com/

You have to access each chapter from this page though. The other links still refer to the defunct Knol. I do a ketogenic version. Instead of starch, I eat vegetables and butter on the protein restricted days. Alzheimer's runs in my family so mega-autophagy wouldn't hurt.

Oh, you're right. Cool. Thanks.

[Chupo]

I'm skeptical that fast cycling protein, a few days every week, will induce autophagy long enough to do much good. I imagine it's like erosion. If you erode away a thin layer and replace it every few days, you won't get to deeper levels. Is that silly?

Chapter 11 talks about the rate of accumulation and the ability to recycle junk proteins at different ages. I know what you mean though. Doing all your protein restricted days consecutively would be better than doing them alternately. If it takes 12 hours before autophagy occurs and you protein restrict 3 days per week alternately, you'll have (72-(12*3)= 36 hours of autophagy. If you do the three days consecutively, you'll end up with 72-12=60 almost double the time in autophagy!

Edited by Chupoman, 13 May 2012 - 05:36 AM.

[ta5]

Chapter 11 talks about the rate of accumulation and the ability to recycle junk proteins at different ages. I know what you mean though. Doing all your protein restricted days consecutively would be better than doing them alternately. If it takes 12 hours before autophagy occurs and you protein restrict 3 days per week alternately, you'll have (72-(12*3)= 36 hours of autophagy. If you do the three days consecutively, you'll end up with 72-12=60 almost double the time in autophagy!

I'm thinking even longer than that. For example, instead of every-other-day, eat low-protein-vegetarian for 2 weeks straight every month. Or, even every-other-month.

[Lufega]

This is a fantastic idea. Been wanting to do something like this and came here to see if it was discussed before. I'm doing the leangains approach and I find it difficult to stuff my face with protein all day. I feel like I'm missing out on more fruits and veggies since I fill up on so much protein. Been doing alternate days already with no problems at all. I'll switch and omit protein 2 consecutive days a week and 1 week off every 2 months. This will be in addition to the 16-8 fast/eat cycle I already do.

edit: Keeping in mind that the point of doing this is to enhance autophagy, it would be wise to avoid things that would inhibit it. One example is anything that increases cAMP like caffeine and forskolin but i'm finding contradictory evidence. Anyone know ?

Edited by Lufega, 21 May 2012 - 03:31 AM.

[Brett Black]

Is there any actual evidence that a protein cycling diet has desirable/beneficial outcomes? Even just in rodents or other non-human mammals? I'm not aware of any. Without relevant and sufficient evidence it's nothing but extreme speculation.

[ta5]

Is there any actual evidence that a protein cycling diet has desirable/beneficial outcomes? Even just in rodents or other non-human mammals? I'm not aware of any. Without relevant and sufficient evidence it's nothing but extreme speculation.

We have evidence that autophagy has benefits and evidence that protein restriction induces autophagy.

[xEva]

I also have doubts that a few days of protein restriction will do anything. The body has lots of protein, with so many uses. Like for ex. transporters for various molecules in the bloodstream. Will it dip into this pool first? Or last? I'd like to know.

Also, on high protein diet the body uses protein differently. It does not economize on it at all. Different set of genes is expressed than when protein is in low supply. If you suddenly switch to no protein, it will take a few days for the body to adjust accordingly and express a different set of genes. Just then you switch back to high protein diet. -?!

And even suppose Mignery is right and just a 1-4 days without protein will upregulate autophagy. I don't see how restricting protein without CR can help, because high glucose/high insulin directly impede autophagy, regardless.

On the other hand, as ta5 proposes, limittting protein for a stretch of time may actually work. With CR that is. I believe it's called raw food vegan diet. It's a good thing to go on for a month or so. I saw an older woman go on it once and the results were phenomenal. She dropped 10-15 years in a matter of weeks. From what I've seen, many people get confused at this point and start believing that raw food vegan diet is it for life. But that's a mistake of course. They do need to replenish their protein reserves at some point. This sort of protein cycling I saw work.

[niner]

And even suppose Mignery is right and just a 1-4 days without protein will upregulate autophagy. I don't see how restricting protein without CR can help, because high glucose/high insulin directly impede autophagy, regardless.

High glucose/insulin may do that, but what about normal levels? And what about in the face of a protein shortage? If you leave the body no choice, it will have to get the amino acids it needs from somewhere- the only question is: where? We'd like to see autophagy of old, damaged proteins, but would we lose new muscle tissue instead? Hasn't this been evaluated experimentally?

[xEva]

If you leave the body no choice, it will have to get the amino acids it needs from somewhere- the only question is: where?

That's the question.

I too would like to know. I think it largely depends on the background level of average daily protein consumption and also for how long protein is restricted. I doubt there could be a definitive answer to this question equally applicable to all.

Traditionally christians restrict protein on 2 days a week and for longer stretches of time during lent and other fasts. I saw several Ramadan studies, so there must be some studies dealing with lent and other christian fasts, which actually are diets. But my interests lie not in dieting but fasting (aka therapeutic starvation). None of the human studies I saw dealt with autophagy. I doubt there is a reliable method to study it in vivo. Rodents are killed to assess it.

Rodent data is not directly transferable to humans though, as was already discussed in 2 other threads. The headlines ~2 years ago dealing with the issue announced that 2 days of fasting was enough to greatly upregulate autophagy in mouse neurons. I seriously doubt the same effect is achievable in humans in 2 days. Humans take ~48h to deplete their liver glycogen and start switching to ketones. I believe whatever protein is "lying around" is used up for gluconeogenesis at about the same time. And that's starvation data. If you eat, it gotta take so much longer.

Mice loose 20% of their weight after 48h of starvation. It will take over a month for an average non-obese human to loose that much weight and by then, rest assured, autophagy will clean up each and every of his cells. That you can actually see.


PS
Forgot to mention that one underappreciated protein pool is lymphatics. That's protein that is used first IMO, before the intracellular stores are tackled.

Edited by xEva, 29 May 2012 - 02:40 AM.

[ta5]

None of the human studies I saw dealt with autophagy. I doubt there is a reliable method to study it in vivo. Rodents are killed to assess it.

Some guy here says he "measure[s] it all the time clinically". I don't know how.
http://paleohacks.co...k/102506#102506
(It seems some folks there missed the studies showing detrimental effects from IF.)

[xEva]

Some guy here says he "measure[s] it all the time clinically". I don't know how.
http://paleohacks.co...k/102506#102506
(It seems some folks there missed the studies showing detrimental effects from IF.)

Ha! That's Dr. Jack Kruse, lol. He is known for spinning wild tales. But. For making me finally start taking cool baths I forgive him everything Especially now that the weather is so hot and our pool is still broken... and the ocean so far away.... don't know why I have not thought of this myself.

detrimental effects from IF - was it rodent studies? I don't believe in detrimental effects of fasting in a culture of gluttons. Whatever fasting one can do is always good. Long term fasting can be tricky. But hardly anyone does that.

[ta5]

detrimental effects from IF - was it rodent studies? I don't believe in detrimental effects of fasting in a culture of gluttons. Whatever fasting one can do is always good. Long term fasting can be tricky. But hardly anyone does that.

http://www.longecity...post__p__473475

[Brett Black]

Is there any actual evidence that a protein cycling diet has desirable/beneficial outcomes? Even just in rodents or other non-human mammals? I'm not aware of any. Without relevant and sufficient evidence it's nothing but extreme speculation.

We have evidence that autophagy has benefits and evidence that protein restriction induces autophagy.

Ta5, your two statements might be correct if applied in an extremely narrow sense for a very limited number of outcomes and using a questionable mechanistic definition of "benefit."

"Benefit" in that sense however is entirely irrelevant to most humans. Most humans are not deeply concerned about essentially abstract changes that are only visible through a microscope and that otherwise have absolutely no known directly perceivable experiential health outcomes. So far as conventional experiential health is concerned, I'm unaware of any evidence that a protein cycling diet is of positive effect.

And, even if one were to make the extremely simplistic and unfounded assumption that protein-cycling-induced autophagy is of net benefit to humans, a protein cycling diet would no doubt also concurrently induce a vast multitude of other mind-bogglingly complex and poorly-understood reactions in the body far beyond just autophagy. Thus it is unknown what the net outcome to health of such a diet would be.

"Whether autophagy protects from or causes disease is unclear......Autophagy probably factors into both the promotion and prevention of cancer.........There are many connections between autophagy and human physiology; however, our understanding of autophagy, and particularly its role in human health and disease, is at a very early stage. Even the most fundamental question—whether autophagy plays a protective or a harmful role—is not clearly established for most diseases."[1]

REFERENCES

1: Shintani T, Klionsky DJ. Autophagy in health and disease: a double-edged
sword. Science. 2004 Nov 5;306(5698):990-5. Review. PubMed PMID: 15528435; PubMed
Central PMCID: PMC1705980.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1705980/

Edited by Brett Black, 30 May 2012 - 07:54 AM.

[Lufega]

On the other hand, as ta5 proposes, limittting protein for a stretch of time may actually work. With CR that is. I believe it's called raw food vegan diet. It's a good thing to go on for a month or so. I saw an older woman go on it once and the results were phenomenal. She dropped 10-15 years in a matter of weeks. From what I've seen, many people get confused at this point and start believing that raw food vegan diet is it for life. But that's a mistake of course. They do need to replenish their protein reserves at some point. This sort of protein cycling I saw work.

I inadvertently did a diet similar to this back in 2006. For 3-4 months I ate nothing but tropical fruits including coconut meat and water, some veggies for dinner and two eggs for breakfast. For supplements, I used curcumin, rhodiola and drank green tea. I also did some morning cardio. fasted consisting of walking 11 flights of stairs 2-3 times. I have never looked as good as I did during that time. Everyone complemented me on how healthy, vibrant and rejuvenated I looked and this effect wasn't simply because of the weight I lost. Also, my bowel movements were squeaky clean. I've attributed that effect to many things over the years, i.e avoiding grains, sugars, etc. However, now I realized the low protein diet and autophagy probably played a big role. Eventually, I went back to my normal eating patterns and went back to my previous state.

I have before and after pics that document this radical change, but I probably wont post them seeing as the internets are forever

[xEva]

Lufega, oh please do post them! Just use Photoshop to cover your eyes with a black bar, like they do in med literature

I attribute very obvious rejuvenation after periods of fasting or raw food diet precisely to the effects of autophagy. So it is incorrect to say that you can't see it work. When it goes on long enough, you can see it in the glow of the skin and brightness of the eyes. With such interventions though, autophagy invariably comes with some weight loss and this may be confusing to some people.



Brett, I saw that article a while back, but will read it now again just in case. I totally disagree with it. Autophagy is generally good for us and with age needs to be stimulated. My personal take on it is that with the passage of time we slowly accumulate intracellular infections that impede autophagy in cells they colonize as a survival strategy. This leads to persistence of infected cells in a senescent state, as the intracellular microbes also block their apoptosis. Eventually such senescent cells accumulate, poisoning the existence for the surrounding cells and organs, not to mention that they remain the source of infection that slowly spreads to other cells.

In cases of cancer, it is true that autophagy allows cancer cells to survive chemo. But it is also true that autophagy can prevent cancer from occurring in the first place. Recently I bumped into an infectious theory of cancer and must admit that I am amazed that people continue to ignore this old theory even now that we finally have technology to show DNA of intracellular microbes in the infected cells (the cells inside the organs of the body which until recently was believed to be sterile).

Stimulation of autophagy can help rid body of such infections. So, in 99% of the cases, I believe stimulation of autophagy is a very good thing.

[Lufega]

I'll try to put something together and post it in the next couple days. This also lends a little support to some of the benefits of Juicing. Protein fasting is a big part of a juicing diet so autophagy would also be at work. If I were to repeat this diet again, which I'm very tempted to do (I just don't want to lose the hard earned muscle I've gained! : p), i would also include vegetable juicing, berries, trehalose and some fat source like coconut or olive oil. Berries were not available to me last time.

[Chupo]

Lufega,

I was a low fat raw vegan for a year. It started out well but then I went down hill. My teeth turned translucent and then eroded and I lost way too much weight. Simply thinking became a real chore. Even eating 4,000+ calories of fruit, I couldn't gain weight. On the other hand, some people tend to get fat on it. I guess it depends on if you can absorb raw vegan calories or not. People are starting to document it on their own site since the raw vegan forums are heavily censored. http://30bananasaday...is-not-working/

Personally, I'd stick to juice fasting. It's less risky.

Edited by Chupoman, 30 May 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[ta5]

Is there any actual evidence that a protein cycling diet has desirable/beneficial outcomes? Even just in rodents or other non-human mammals? I'm not aware of any. Without relevant and sufficient evidence it's nothing but extreme speculation.

We have evidence that autophagy has benefits and evidence that protein restriction induces autophagy.

Ta5, your two statements might be correct if applied in an extremely narrow sense for a very limited number of outcomes and using a questionable mechanistic definition of "benefit."

I can agree that my use of the word benefits was stretching the definition. Autophagy is a function of the body. It does what it does. And, we don't know all what it does yet. Like so many things, I may not have time to wait for the conclusive evidence. Here's a recent review:

Ageing' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://pmid.us/22504405']Ageing Res Rev. 2012 Apr 6. [Epub ahead of print]
Autophagy, polyphenols and healthy ageing.
Pallauf K, Rimbach G.
Autophagy is a lysosomal degradation process that evolved as a starvation response in lower eukaryotes and has gained numerous functions in higher organisms. In animals, autophagy works as a central process in cellular quality control by removing waste or excess proteins and organelles. Impaired autophagy and the age-related decline of this pathway favour the pathogenesis of many diseases that occur especially at higher age such as neurodegenerative diseases and cancer. Caloric restriction (CR) promotes longevity and healthy ageing. Currently, the contributing role of autophagy in the context of CR-induced health benefits is being unravelled. Furthermore recent studies imply that the advantages from polyphenol consumption may be also connected to autophagy induction. In this review, the literature on autophagy regulation by (dietary) polyphenols such as resveratrol, catechin, quercetin, silibinin and curcumin is discussed with a focus on the underlying molecular mechanisms. Special attention is paid to the implications of age-related autophagy decline for diseases and the possibility of dietary countermeasures.
PMID: 22504405

→ source (external link)

"Whether autophagy protects from or causes disease is unclear......Autophagy probably factors into both the promotion and prevention of cancer.........There are many connections between autophagy and human physiology; however, our understanding of autophagy, and particularly its role in human health and disease, is at a very early stage. Even the most fundamental question—whether autophagy plays a protective or a harmful role—is not clearly established for most diseases."[1]

I'm not surprised that a function of the body may be involved in pathology. I imagine every function of the body can be in certain people or situations. I doubt that periodically eating a low-protein vegetarian diet would cause disease.

Edited by ta5, 30 June 2012 - 08:04 PM.