4 replies to this topic

[Llama Chris]

I've been slowly adding new supplements to what I take, and as I read more and more here and in other related literature I am finding there are a number of things I hadn't even heard of before that I should consider adding. I am still new at all this, and thus am still researching into what I should be taking, or could be taking.

Also, something to bear in mind is that I am vegan.

Currently Taking Each Day

• B12 Sublingual - 1000mg cyanocobalamin + 400mg folate
• DHA - 200mg docosahexaenoic acid
• Flaxseed Oil - 5caps @ alpha linolenic acid 580mg each
• Alpha-GPC - providing 300mg elemental
• Olive Leaf Extract - about 10ml/day
• Calcium Supplement - (Calcium Citrate 1.1g, Calcium Ororate 250mg - Total Calcium 256mg, Boron 1.5mg, Magnesium Orotate 125mg, Magnesium Oxide 216mg, Zinc Gluconate 15mg, Calcium Ascorbate 50mg, Potassiu aspartate 30mg, fucus vesiculous equiv. to 250mg iodine).
• Melatonin - 1mg time released melatonin, also includes magnesium (from oxide) 100mg, B6 pyridoxine 2mg. - I have slept so much better since taking this (about a month ago).
• Piracetam - Depends how much per day, still 'trialling' this.

I noticed also that the orange juice I drink (which I have cut down on substantially over the last few weeks) is fortified with iron. I've read some bad stuff about iron here. I think the original reason I bought that juice was because after examining my diet it did seem to be low in iron compared to what one apparently should be taking; but this may not be the case? Would it be wise to remove this drom my diet?

Adding Soon

• Resveratrol - seems to be quite popular, I have some already but haven't started taking it yet because I don't like taking a whole bunch of new supps at once, I prefer one at a time so I can see if there are any effects.

Thinking About Adding Soon

• Acetyl L-carnitine - This is "Alcar" right? This is one I hadn't heard of before, but from the sounds of it it is definately something I should be taking.
• Creatine? I'd always thought this was some weird substance used by guys that want oversized muscles. From what I have read here, it is worth taking?
• Vitamin D3 - I am unsure about this, as I don't think it is vegan suitable, but considering I don't get much sunlight it might b good for me and maybe one thing I should make an exception on (though that could be a slippery slope).
• Selenium - I need to know more about this though, as I have the understanding that too much selenium can be really bad?
• BComplex - Thinking about a Bcomplex instead of just the B12

I have a number of others, but the ones above are what I think I should be looking into next. If I could get some confirmation on if I should be adding these ones, and if so how much, or if there are other things I should be adding instead. And on that note, if anything I am currently taking should be removed.

Thanks for reading

[NDM]

if you are a vegan, creatine is a MUST for you - an Australian study from 2003 showed that creatine supplementation for folks who don't eat meat substantially improves performance on IQ tests.

[kismet]

Advise on what to add? Sounds biased towards supplementation. You should consider both adding and cutting out things if necessary.
Those could be worth considering (personally IDK, but creatine is most certainly a solid choice):
"Vegan: taurine (250 mg), creatine (5 g), carnitine (ALCAR pref) (500 mg), carnosine (500 mg), choline (500 mg)." (1)

Obviously you are missing vitamin D and vitamin K (MK-7). Those two are all the rage these days -- interestingly they even show some benefits in actual human subjects, most promising research is only epidemiology, though.
I'd not go for any fixed amount of vitamin D, but rather shoot for 40-45ng/ml (25(OH)D-levels).

Why that much folate? Is there any evidence in favour of folate supplementation I have missed? Isn't a vegan diet naturally rich in folic acid?

The other post (2) is also a good read and there's some mention of vitamin D.


(1) http://www.caloriere...07-summary.html
(2) http://www.caloriere...2650#msg-182650

EDIT:
Sorry if I have to show my strong (maybe childish and not very diplomatic) bias, but I despise vegans who want to stay vegan at the cost of their health. Ergocalciferol is a true vegan "alternative", though. Actually it's not an alternative per se, not to a life extensionist. It is not as well researched as cholecalciferol and it's efficacy varies a lot.

http://www.raysaheli...calciferol.html
"It appears to be true that Vitamin D in the form of cholecalciferol is derived from an animal source such as sheep wool. Therefore, this would make it fine for a vegetarian but not for a very strict vegan who believes that even a vitamin derived from wool is not acceptable. The sheep are not killed. The wool is sheared, and lanolin from the sheep wool is chemically altered in the lab to produce vitamin D3 or cholecalciferol."

Phylloquinone too, is vastly inferior to MK-4 and MK-7 (which is derived from fermentation IIRC - is it actually wrong to harm micro organisms?) in my opinion. At least there is some solid data on high dose Phy., but I would not say it's sufficiently convincing to be an alternative to the MKs.

Why a B-complex? There's not much data in favour of b-complex supplementation (I venture to say there is no convincing data at all). Benfotiamine (Thiamine) and P5P (Pyridoxamine) are worth considering for their own sake. Benfotiamine/Thiamine supplementation may be slightly pro-carcinogenic in the long term (it's all just conjecture at this time, though). I'm not aware of any possible risks of P5P supplementation, but I'm not really into b6 derivatives.

Edited by kismet, 06 March 2009 - 04:47 PM.

[Llama Chris]

if you are a vegan, creatine is a MUST for you - an Australian study from 2003 showed that creatine supplementation for folks who don't eat meat substantially improves performance on IQ tests.

Hm, this is interesting. In all the things I've read I haven't really ever heard creatine mentioned at all, and I'm pretty sure I haven't read about it in any of the vegan/vegetarian dietary books. Do you have a link/source where I can find this study? I better get into some more reading on creatine. Is creatine an essential something that people get from meat?

Advise on what to add? Sounds biased towards supplementation. You should consider both adding and cutting out things if necessary.
Those could be worth considering (personally IDK, but creatine is most certainly a solid choice):
"Vegan: taurine (250 mg), creatine (5 g), carnitine (ALCAR pref) (500 mg), carnosine (500 mg), choline (500 mg)." (1)

Oh, definately. If there is something I am taking that I don't need to be taking, or shouldn't be taking, then I would have no qualms about removing anything. I am open to input. I don't know of anything currently that I need to remove from my current list, except I am looking at removing the calcium later on depending on the results of my next bone density scan.

I will look into the ones you suggested, what can you, or someone, tell me about taurine? I thought that was just something added to energy drinks. Again, I haven't heard about this in the context of a healthy diet.

Why that much folate? Is there any evidence in favour of folate supplementation I have missed? Isn't a vegan diet naturally rich in folic acid?

The folate is just incidental. The B12 I am taking for B12 has folate in it, same with the calcium I am taking.

Sorry if I have to show my strong (maybe childish and not very diplomatic) bias, but I despise vegans who want to stay vegan at the cost of their health. Ergocalciferol is a true vegan "alternative", though. Actually it's not an alternative per se, not to a life extensionist. It is not as well researched as cholecalciferol and it's efficacy varies a lot.

Hey, that is fine. I am after information here, whether it is something that disagrees with my current philosophy or not. That's why I went vegan originally - because it can be a healthy diet. My understanding always has been that sunlight (especially here in sunny Australia) is an adequate source of Vitamin D, but now that I am interested in life extension and from what I have been reading here then it may be worth looking into if it's effects can be significant. I just don't want take dissonant or hypocritcal views, being vegan and also taking D3.

Phylloquinone too, is vastly inferior to MK-4 and MK-7 (which is derived from fermentation IIRC - is it actually wrong to harm micro organisms?) in my opinion. At least there is some solid data on high dose Phy., but I would not say it's sufficiently convincing to be an alternative to the MKs.

I don't have an issue with micro organisms.

Why a B-complex? There's not much data in favour of b-complex supplementation (I venture to say there is no convincing data at all).

I may have got my findings confused, I thought there was. I will look into this.

Thanks both of you for your help and suggestions.

[kismet]

(1) Bender A et al. Creatine improves health and survival of mice. Neurobiol Aging. 2008 Sep;29(9):1404-11. Epub 2007 Apr 9.Department of Neurology, University of Munich, Klinikum Grosshadern, Marchioninistr. 15, Munich D-81377, Germany.
(2) Rae C et al. Oral creatine monohydrate supplementation improves brain performance: a double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over trial. Proc Biol Sci. 2003 Oct. http://www.pubmedcen...bmedid=14561278
(3) McMorris T et al. Creatine supplementation and cognitive performance in elderly individuals. Neuropsychol Dev Cogn B Aging Neuropsychol Cogn. 2007 Sep.

B vitamins so far have failed for CVD prevention (via homocysteine lowering) and prevention of dementia. (2) is the trial in vegetarians.