39 replies to this topic

[Elana]

Hi everybody, I joined your forum because it appeared that there are a lot of knowledgeable, experienced people here that may be able to help me define some ways to abate my constant anxiety. Here's the background info:
I definitely have some kind of anxiety problem, though never clinically diagnosed, but if I had to guess... maybe something like GAD? I feel tense and anxious all of the time, even when there is no trigger and nothing in particular on my mind. I can be chilling at home just surfing the web, nothing threatening at all and I'll have the panicked stomach and feel on edge and even kind of weepy. This varies in degree, sometimes just a "low hum in the background" that I can tune out, and other times it can get kind of extreme. Occasionally, though far from daily, I experience some pretty intense episodes and of course there is no way to escape the situation because there really is no "situation" other than my body choosing to have a spontaneous freak-out. Of course, if there IS some kind of stressor, even fairly minor, not always but often it hits me hard like a kick to the stomach, and too often embarking upon a social activity is like choking down bad medicine; I make myself do it, because I don't wanna be a recluse, and I do find pleasure in social events, but also as much and sometimes more negativity beside.

Other symptoms include trouble sleeping (tend to wake up throughout the night, or else lack particularly "deep" sleep), constant fatigue, often a sort of mental fog, occasional trouble concentrating due to being "hyped up" with tension, lack of ambition to do things productive or fun (due to no energy), and I've been diagnosed with IBS so it can be said that there is stomach upset. I guess there is some depression, but I don't view it as clinical, and most of it is due to the effects of the aforementioned. Lately there has also been incidents where I feel like it is hard to get an adequate breath. Not like wheezing or hyperventilation, just like my throat is kind of tight. This mostly occurs during late evening and night. I do not suspect a food allergy.

Additionally, anxiety is very prevalent on my dad's side of the family, with most of those relatives having clinical diagnoses for anxiety. Also, my dad is on clonazepam forever and ever, because through years of working with a psychiatrist/psychologist, he and his doctor concluded he could never be off of the stuff and function all right.

I am currently on the following: Omega-3 fatty acid (1+ years), daily multivitamin (1+ years), magnesium citrate supplement (about a month), bacopa monnieri (about 5 weeks), theanine (occasionally as needed, though not very effective), chamomile tea (tasty, but ineffective for my chronic problems), a memory foam pillow (1+ years for improved slumber, though it fails).

I have tried: SAM-e (didn't do much for me), Paxil and Zoloft (was forced onto the stuff in high school due to parental misunderstanding of an email, but stopped taking due to doctor recommendation and the stuff was unhelpful and produced side effects). I used to be big on meditation and that was some great stuff but the anxiety got worse and worse and has overpowered the efficacy that the meditation once presented.

Phew! If you read all that, I really appreciate it! Also, it may be relevant to know that I am on the Pill. Also, some exercise can kind of help, but I think only in the respect that it wears out my body too much to waste energy on being unnecessarily high strung. Once the exhaustion wears off, it is not long before the symptoms return.

Does anybody have any ideas for how I can deal with this persistent anxiety without resorting to benzodiazapines? There are surely a million reasons why I don't want to resort to such medication, and also it is worth noting that something to be taken only at particularly striking instances will have limited value to me, since my anxiety runs debilitatingly in the background all day long. However my anxiety is only getting worse and I'm feeling at the end of my rope here. So if anyone has any last ditch suggestions I can take before diving headfirst into the world of addictive, thought-slowing medications, I would really appreciate the advice. I've heard a lot about Rhodiola, mostly anectodal evidence, but it does not seem like a very promising supplement to me... unless someone else can provide otherwise? I've also heard about BuSpar, and have perhaps undue optimism for it due to its low incidence of risk and side effects... but I believe, like most things I've tried, also a low incidence of effectiveness :(

I don't mean to sound so pessimistic, but at this point I feel like I am faced with the dichotomy of contending with ever-increasing anxiety, or mind-numbing medication. So I'm just scrounging around for some scrap of hope, a safe and effective alternative. Thank you so much for reading and for any insight you can provide!

EDIT: Also, forgot to mention that I generally don't consume caffeine, so that is not the culprit. Thanks!

Edited by Elana, 16 March 2009 - 09:30 PM.

[Lufega]

Welcome and my sympathies to you. It sounds very much like the problem I've been facing over the years. No matter what I've done, the problem of anxiety and fatigue still persists. In time, you'll evaluate many explanation from heavy metal toxicity, candida albicans overgrowth, adrenal fatigue, to chronic fatigue possibly due to Lyme disease or chronic mono infection. Hopefully, in the next few months, you'll find an issue that fits and will find relief. Whatever the cause may be, I've yet to find someone that has, once and for all, conquered anxiety. In my case, I find sort term releif from B-blockers when I absolutely need to feel my best. Also, Glycine, taurine and magnesium (consider switching to ascorbate, taurate, glycinate, orotate, malate) at doses every 5 hours is very helpful.

I've also tried many different herbs but most only offer temporary relief. For some unknown reason, our sympathetic systems are chronically activated, which to me, it's how the body is telling us that something is terribly wrong with it (infection, toxicity?). I think until the cause is adressed, the anxiety will persists. I should note that anxiety runs rampant in my family as well. We call it "locuras".

[Elana]

Welcome and my sympathies to you. It sounds very much like the problem I've been facing over the years. No matter what I've done, the problem of anxiety and fatigue still persists. In time, you'll evaluate many explanation from heavy metal toxicity, candida albicans overgrowth, adrenal fatigue, to chronic fatigue possibly due to Lyme disease or chronic mono infection. Hopefully, in the next few months, you'll find an issue that fits and will find relief. Whatever the cause may be, I've yet to find someone that has, once and for all, conquered anxiety. In my case, I find sort term releif from B-blockers when I absolutely need to feel my best. Also, Glycine, taurine and magnesium (consider switching to ascorbate, taurate, glycinate, orotate, malate) at doses every 5 hours is very helpful.

I've also tried many different herbs but most only offer temporary relief. For some unknown reason, our sympathetic systems are chronically activated, which to me, it's how the body is telling us that something is terribly wrong with it (infection, toxicity?). I think until the cause is adressed, the anxiety will persists. I should note that anxiety runs rampant in my family as well. We call it "locuras".

Hi, thank you for the welcome and the reply. I'm sorry to hear you too suffer the same issue. At the same time it is also comforting to hear about someone else on this confusing journey.

"For some unknown reason, our sympathetic systems are chronically activated[.]" That describes the sensation pretty well!

I too looked into "candida overgrowth" and "adrenal fatigue," but it just doesn't look like the science is there so I didn't invest in any remedies for those conditions.

Also, I forgot to ask in my first post although I meant to: Does anyone have a good estimate as to how long one needs to take bacopa before experiencing anxiolytic effects? As stated, I've only been on it for 5 weeks. Should I be noticing a difference by now, or do I need to wait the full three months for anxiety relief (I know the studies showed it took three months for the cognitive benefits).

[rwac]

Hi Elana,

I must say that I used to have symptoms very similar to yours.
Brain fog, anxiety, unrestful sleep.

Right now, my doctor is reasonably sure that I have Lyme.

Here's some things which helped me.

Brain fog: Methyl-B12, CDP-Choline, Alpha-GPC

Anxiety: Zinc, Rhodiola(It definitely works, but it needs to be cycled, or the effect will go away), Ashwagandha

Sleep: Magnesium Taurate(also helps with anxiety), Tryptophan, 5htp(heard good things about it)
You should find out if you have Sleep Apnea.

Sorry, I don't know much about Bacopa.

Edited by rwac, 16 March 2009 - 10:50 PM.

[nowayout]

Have you tried counseling/therapy? Some people with anxiety appear to have great success with cognitive behavioral approaches (For example. I am sure there will be other effective approaches also). Definitely worth a shot before medications.

I'm sure a lot of people will suggest herbs and supplements. These may or may not help, but remember that a herb/supplement is really just a drug with less rigorous (if any) safety and efficacy profile. Experimenting on yourself on the basis of anecdotal evidence is seldom a good idea. Who knows if you might be causing long-term or irreversible imbalances in neurotransmitters this way. I never understood how the same people who are reluctant to take medications will pop supplements or herbs, as if they were not also medications.

You say you take a multivitamin and don't drink coffee. I periodically have some anxiety that is hard to get rid of. When this happens, I find that taking B-vitamins paradoxically makes it worse. Coffee paradoxically lessens my anxiety. But this is an example of the anecdotal evidence you shouldn't pay too much attention to.

Edited by andre, 16 March 2009 - 10:45 PM.

[tlm884]

I had persitent anxiety for 6 years and nothing seemed to work. After 6 years I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and this was causing the anxiety. Once the bipolar was treated the anxiety disappapeared. Talk to your doctor or shrink about the possibility of an underlying condition causing the anxiety and the anxiety being a symptom and not a disease in itself.

[Lufega]

I am going to try some supplements like lithium orotate and relora as a last resort. I've also read anecdotal reports of people beating anxiety by switching to celtic salt (unprocessed with all minerals included). I want to believe that the problems lies in a simple or combined mineral deficiency. Other theories say adrenal fatigue is the problem which leads to a constant sympathetic output. Among the many deficiencies I have which include copper, manganese and mangesium as well as vitamin B1, magnesium seems to be the most prevalent among society today and something as common as GAD surely has a common etiology most likely involving food and nutrients. I've confirmed a magnesium def. in blood but a random urine sample shows normal magnesium excretion. So, after magnesium enters my body, I don't know where it goes from there. I'm inclined to believe there is an infective agent in my body consuming these, such as Lyme disease.

I am a completely different person when I use beta-blockers. These block the activity of adrenaline on their receptors. It's really remarkable how different I become. I'm now toying with the idea of down-regulating Beta-receptors. I've found a few ways, such as using low dose salbutamol (make things worse before they get better) and other means pubmed yielded, but nothing definitive. In the past, 400 mg magnesium every4 hours worked great for me but supplementing orally with an alkaline supplement can have it's drawbacks in terms of finance, convience and unwanted side effects (like elevated LDL and alkalinization of the stomach).

[Lufega]

I have depression, anxiety (as GAD and SAD) and hypotension among other things. All these things are related to decreased dopamine and norepinephrine function. In another forum, we found that social anxiety disorder with it's accompanying lack of motivation, social withdrawal, etc. can be explained in terms of decrease dopamine function while hypotension is directly related to deceased norepinephrine. NE is produced directly from D.

If I interpreted it correctly, this study also states that norepinephrine is directly related to anxiety and depression. So if you're looking for a cause of persistant anxiety, it is brain damage of unknown etiology. I just had a brain MRI performed and everything came back normal. Structurally, my brain is fine, at least at a macroscopic level.

Norepinephrine transporter-deficient mice respond to anxiety producing and fearful environments with bradycardia and hypotension.

Keller NR, Diedrich A, Appalsamy M, Miller LC, Caron MG, McDonald MP, Shelton RC, Blakely RD, Robertson D.
Autonomic Dysfunction Center, Division of Clinical Pharmacology, Department of Medicine, Vanderbilt University Medical Center, AA3228 MCN, Nashville, TN 37232-2195, USA. nancy.keller@vanderbilt.edu
The study of anxiety and fear involves complex interrelationships between psychiatry and the autonomic nervous system. Altered noradrenergic signaling is linked to certain types of depression and anxiety disorders, and treatment often includes specific transporter blockade. The norepinephrine transporter is crucial in limiting catecholaminergic signaling. Norepinephrine transporter-deficient mice have increased circulating catecholamines and elevated heart rate and blood pressure. We hypothesized, therefore, that reduced norepinephrine clearance would heighten the autonomic cardiovascular response to anxiety and fear. In separate experiments, norepinephrine transporter-deficient (norepinephrine transporter-/-) mice underwent tactile startle and trace fear conditioning to measure hemodynamic responses. A dramatic tachycardia was observed in norepinephrine transporter-/- mice compared with controls following both airpuff or footshock stimuli, and pressure changes were also greater. Interestingly, in contrast to normally elevated home cage levels in norepinephrine transporter-deficient mice, prestimulus heart rate and blood pressure were actually higher in norepinephrine transporter+/+ animals throughout behavioral testing. Upon placement in the behavioral chamber, norepinephrine transporter-deficient mice demonstrated a notable bradycardia and depressor effect that was more pronounced in females. Power spectral analysis indicated an increase in low frequency oscillations of heart rate variability; in mice, suggesting increased parasympathetic tone. Finally, norepinephrine transporter-/- mice exhibited sexual dimorphism in freeze behavior, which was greatest in females. Therefore, while reduced catecholamine clearance amplifies immediate cardiovascular responses to anxiety- or fear-inducing stimuli in norepinephrine transporter-/- mice, norepinephrine transporter deficiency apparently prevents protracted hemodynamic escalation in a fearful environment. Conceivably, chronic norepinephrine transporter blockade with transporter-specific drugs might attenuate recognition of autonomic and somatic distress signals in individuals with anxiety disorders, possibly lessening their behavioral reactivity, and reducing the cardiovascular risk factors associated with persistent emotional arousal.

On a side note, I've had better results with bacopa 20% than with the 50% variety. It took a couple of weeks to see the effects. Which are you using??

Edited by Lufega, 17 March 2009 - 01:20 AM.

[Ben]

If it makes you feel any better I've been through something similar to what you describe for the last 10 years. Only recently, through supplementation and exercise, have I been able to control it. This is what has worked for me:

- Exercise: Intense cardio at least three times per week. Get your heart really racing, get sweaty, if you feel like you're about to vomit then you're doing ok.

- Magnesium

- Piracetam (Take some CDP-Choline with it)

- St. John's wort helped immensely (different effect to zoloft, though, also 'classed' as an anti-D. Don't be put off.)


I'd like to know what type of pill you are taking. If you're on an oestrogen pill then that could explain why you are feeling the way you are. I believe the progesterone pill has less of that particular side-effect.

Your case seems severe and I wouldn't just suffer the anxiety. If it ever gets too extreme you could consider taking 500 mg of phenibut on occasion. You develop a resistance to this pretty quickly but if taken intermittently it's ok.

[bgwithadd]

Anxiety is hard to treat. I don't think you'll get a lot of out directly bombarding your gaba system. Every drug that does that, including alcohol, just causes lots of dependence and problems with withdrawl. Stuff like phenibut and GABA just seem to work less over time.

CBT sometimes works for anxiety, but that's generally for things like imagining certain scenarios then realizing that they are ridiculous and so being able to realize it's nothing to be afraid of. It sounds more like you have general panic attacks than anything like that.

Beta blockers are not a bad bet, but alpha blockers might be better. They directly block adrenaline. I take guanfacine (for other reasons) and it has a signifigant effect on anxiety and it doesn't have a lot of the bad side effects of a lot of other blood pressure meds. Some of them kill you pretty quickly, actually.

I used to have IBS and reflux, but it seems to have virtually disappeared. I believe it's the ashwaghanda or the bacopa ultimately causing this. Probably due to reducing anxiety or improving digest. IBS and anxiety sort of go hand in hand, and I think sometimes it could actually be the IBS causing anxiety, not the other way around. Having digestive problems can lead to lots of imbalances, which can lead to any number of mental issues. I find a great deal of help from inosotol, but only in large doses like 3-5 grams a day. It's supposed to help with IBS as well (though it seems to cause me some diarhhea if I take it on an empty stomach), so that might help there or might help the anxiety by reducing the IBS. If I take it at night I always wake up in a good mood and I normally NEVER do.

Taurine and magnesium taurate are also great suggestions. Glutamine might help, as well.

I wouldn't try NE for anxiety, if anything that will cause massive anxiety. most ADD people have tons of anxiety, but adderall can help with that. It increases the transporter functions of the brain. the problem is that you can't really do that 24 hours a day (if you can even get it prescribed). However, guanfacine has some of the same mechanism (why I take it) so it might actually help with that.You might also get a lot out of deprenyl for similar reasons.

Lately I've realized a lot of my problems are likely anxiety related, so I am researching that a lot more lately. Still not any magic bullet for treating it, though.

[Lufega]

Wiki has a really good article on norepinephrine....

http://en.wikipedia..../Norepinephrine

"Banana peels contain significant amounts of norepinephrine and dopamine."

http://www.medindia....ion-26598-1.htm

..boil banana peels and drink the water.

High content of dopamine, a strong antioxidant, in Cavendish banana.

Kanazawa K, Sakakibara H.
Laboratory of Food and Nutritional Chemistry, Faculty of Agriculture, Kobe University, Rokkodai, Nada-ku, Kobe 657-8501, Japan. kazuki@kobe-u.ac.jp
A strong water-soluble antioxidant was identified in the popular commercial banana Musa cavendishii. It is dopamine, one of the catecholamines. For suppressing the oxygen uptake of linoleic acid in an emulsion and scavenging a diphenylpicrylhydrazyl radical, dopamine had greater antioxidative potency than glutathione, food additives such as butylated hydroxyanisole and hydroxytoluene, flavone luteolin, flavonol quercetin, and catechin, and similar potency to the strongest antioxidants gallocatechin gallate and ascorbic acid. Banana contained dopamine at high levels in both the peel and pulp. Dopamine levels ranged from 80-560 mg per 100 g in peel and 2.5-10 mg in pulp, even in ripened bananas ready to eat. Banana is thus one of the antioxidative foods.

Edited by Lufega, 17 March 2009 - 02:47 AM.

[treonsverdery]

I read a cosmopolitan photo blurb once that said most people have just two friends Thus it might be well to make an (another) friend or two to provide a kind of deep reassurance meetup.com has affinity groups you could visit http://www.meetup.com/ Naturally as a crazed hermit I looked up hermit to find what appears to be a dozen socializing opportunities with other hermits near me http://hermit.meetup.com/

You might do pretty well typing meditation at meetup.com to find a calmness practice friend


I think i also read a study or pubmed.org reference that said the same thing
ask your benzodiazapene prescriber to consider propanolanol first http://en.wikipedia....iki/Propranolol

recent press releases gathered at the AAAS, the science society that publishes Science Magazine http://search.eureka...l...l&qc=ev3rel notes such things as


An end to fear... by administering the beta-blocker propranolol. Interestingly, the fear response does ... were administered the beta-blocker propranolol. On the third day it ... volunteers who had been administered propranolol no longer exhibited a fear

Stress interferes with problem-solving; Beta-blocker may help
... stress could be improved by propranolol, a beta-blocker associated with ... which is blocked by the propranolol. " ... manner: placebo + control, placebo + stress, propranolol + control and propranolol + stress. The stress was induced


propranolol is multiply published as reducing anxiety fear n tremors
phenytoin is kind of like a neuroactive placebo panacea if it works, it works, but read about it at wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilantin

rapid version:

get friends http://www.meetup.com/
ask prescriber about propranolol as well as phenytoin

Edited by treonsverdery, 17 March 2009 - 03:15 AM.

[Lufega]

"Noradrenaline has higher receptor affinity than has adrenaline, which, in turn has much higher affinity than isoprenaline.[4]" ...for alpha -1 receptors. This can explain why, if our norepinephrine levels are low, we would have a dominant sympathetic activity.

Adrenergic hyperactivity and metanephrine excess in the nucleus accumbens after prefrontocortical dopamine depletion.

Espejo EF, Miñano J.
Departamento de Fisiologia Medica y Biofisica, Facultad de Medicina, Universidad de Sevilla, E-41009 Seville, Spain. efespejo@cica.es
Selective dopamine depletion within the medial prefrontal cortex in rats is known to enhance dopamine and norepinephrine levels in the nucleus accumbens and to induce characteristic behavioral disturbances. The present study was designed to determine levels of adrenaline, apart from dopamine and norepinephrine, and metabolites in the nucleus accumbens after prefrontocortical dopamine depletion. Prefrontocortical dopamine depletion was carried out by injecting 6-hydroxydopamine, and it was validated through: the emergence of behavioral disturbances such as amphetamine-induced stereotypies, spontaneous motor hyperactivity, and enhanced "anxiety-like" responses and through postmortem quantification of catecholamine levels by using high-performance liquid chromatography. The findings indicated that lesioned rats exhibited more oral stereotypies after amphetamine, were hyperlocomotive, and showed more pronounced anxiety-like behaviors than controls. Following prefrontocortical dopamine depletion, postmortem concentrations of dopamine and norepinephrine, along with the metabolites 3,4-dihydroxyphenylacetic acid and vanillylmandelic acid, were reliably enhanced in the nucleus accumbens as expected, and dopamine turnover was decreased. Furthermore the nucleus accumbens contained higher levels of adrenaline and its transmethylated metabolite metanephrine. To sum up, prefrontocortical dopamine depletion induces motor and emotional disturbances in rats and alters the neurochemical profile of the nucleus accumbens, not only inducing dopaminergic and noradrenergic hyperactivity but also leading to adrenaline and metanephrine excess.

[OneScrewLoose]

First of all OP, I've been exactly like you, but my anxiety is finally going down. My stomach used to be in pain for 10 years without end and my anxiety was terrible. Turned out the cause was celiac disease. Since you have IBS, check out celiac disease on wikipedia and enterolab.com. I got all the tests there and not only did I have celiac disease but intolerances to diary and soy as well. I must stress the celiac disease is not a food allergy, but an intolerance. In the case of celiac disease it is a terrible immune reaction in the small intestine upon ingestion of gluten that causes damage to the villi and malnutrition. This can lead to any number of problems, of course. It is painful for some, and not for others. 1/4300 are diagnosed, 1/133 have it. Check it out.

Now, I am left with the anxiety programming from this disease. You don't spend 10 years in hell without being f***ed up. There are 5 main things that help me. Supplements and prescriptions, meditation, exercise, "bath therapy" and accupuncture. I recommend keeping up with the meditation a couple times a week if that's all that you can muster. It has really changed my life. Note that meditation isn't necessarily sitting down and breathing, but can be anything that helps you be more mindful in life (instead of running on automatic). Find a good accupuncturist, I've spent $1500 on it so far without regret (it's not like I have money either, I spend all my money on my health instead of the usual fun things a normal 21-year-old would spent it on).

As for "bath therapy," here's how the person who recommended it to my told me it works. You submerge yourself completely in water as hot as you can take it. Your body starts to panic and around the 5-7 minute mark and then releases endorphins. This cycle happens about 3 times per bath, for around 21 minutes, and then your body sorta just gives in. You do this for 21 days or so and your body changes it default anxiety level to something lower. As for my experience, when I first did it it was one of the worst experiences in my life, I was crying as I watched each painful second go by on the clock. But I pulled through and did it for more then 21 days. It's definitely helped a lot and I still do it a few times a week. Though now I enjoy it. In retrospect, I think it causes the downregulation of NE receptors because when you do this your body is gonna get flooded with adrenaline.

I've had bad experiences with long term propranolol use. It ended up making my anxiety worse, even when I was still on it after a month of use. Check out this thread here.

Hope I've helped some.

[Elana]

WOW, thank you so much for the replies everyone! I really appreciate the insight. I'm probably going to fail to respond to a lot of people in this reply, but trust me I did read what you wrote me and appreciate it

*I am not inclined to suspect Lyme Disease or something like Bi-Polar Disorder because a) I do not present the characteristic symptoms of those conditions and b) there is clearly a presence of anxiety disorder in my family gene pool, making something contracted like Lyme Disease, or even being on the Pill (which for me is a combined pill of estrogen and progestin) a highly unlikely source of this anxiety. It is, of course, slightly more possible that my relatives were misdiagnosed with anxiety disorder when there was in fact some deeper underlying cause.

*I am not opposed to therapy in principle, however I am also not enthusiastic about it because my anxiety symptoms are very physical in nature, and not particularly brought on by bad mental habits. I'm sure something like CBT couldn't hurt, but it also doesn't seem like my "miracle cure."

*I notice that many people have suggested forms of magnesium other than the form I am taking. I chose to take magnesium citrate because all my research indicated that it was the most easily absorbed by the body. The only sources to contradict this were websites selling other forms of the supplement. Are there benefits to the other forms of the magnesium, other than absorbability, that would make them preferable for the treatment of anxiety?

*Because the anxiety symptoms are so chronic and largely physical in presentation, I too have hope/am hoping that the problem is of a physical nature (i.e. nutritional), rather than one requiring psychotropic medications to treat. Of course, it could equally be said that a chemical imbalance in the brain is "physical in nature"...

*I am disinclined to take prescription medications because generally those which are prescribed for anxiety are benzodiazapines, which are fairly addictive and should only be taken in the short term, and only taken at times of significant panic (making it somewhat useless for persistent anxiety, unless I want to be doped out of my head most of the time). Alternatives to benzodiazapines include SSRIs, which as I mentioned I have tried before, and found to be useless and unpleasant. I am kind of afraid to try something like a beta-blocker. The only prescription med that entices me is BuSpar, as it seems safe, but as it seems with all low risk meds, possibly significantly less effective than other options.

*St. John's Wort is out because it is reputed to interfere with the effectiveness of the Pill. I have learned that the true interaction is somewhat debatable, but it certainly won't help my anxiety if I have to be worrying about whether or not my birth control is working, and I don't want to find out the hard way Also, the Pill was prescribed to me to help with debilitating menstrual pain, so simply choosing another form of birth control isn't really on my mind.

*As mentioned by bgwithadd, I sometimes suspect that the anxiety and the IBS are closely linked. My biggest evidence for suspicion is, in the past I have laid in bed with a hot laptop on my stomach, and for some reason after being exposed to that kind of discomfort for more than a few minutes a significant anxiety "flare up" would occur. It seems a ridiculous notion but perhaps it is something in the stomach causing these problems.

*Thanks for the general info, OneScrewLoose

Also, I resubmit my question regarding the bacopa. Has anyone had experience with this stuff in the treatment of anxiety? I've read some of the other posts here regarding the herb but haven't seen anyone indicate a timeframe in which the anxiolytic effects are to occur.

Thanks!

Edited by Elana, 17 March 2009 - 04:29 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

At the risk of talking about Lyme too much I would just like to mention that anxiety can be the only presenting symptom of Lyme, and my mother suffered with anxiety alone for about 10 years before she started developing other symptoms, and was only diagnosed with Lyme 25 years later. It can present as a variety of psychiatric conditions.

I'm not saying you have it, just that your rationale for ruling it out is flawed (you should not be ruling it out if you have not been tested).

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 17 March 2009 - 04:29 PM.

[Matt]

Anxiety was a big problem for me since I was 9 years of age. It would generally come back every summer when I was out of school, and go away when with friends at school again. It came back around 2005 after some family stuff going and a few other issues. Well it took a year before I could learn to effectively control it. It took a lot of time and persistence. I understand the adrenaline rushes you get, these can happen over 100 times per day and come on for any thought that comes into your head. Almost everyone on my mothers side of the family also have issues with depression and anxiety. So I seem to have ben prone to it from a very young age, when nothing should have worried me! (almost).

I managed to somehow beat mine on my own, one of my problems was probably a mild magnesium deficiency, but also Ashtanga Yoga played the biggest part of getting over it. I recommend that you try Yoga. At first even while doing it I would get these adrenaline rushes and feel 'anxiety' feelings but then after a few sessions you should feel that you concentrate more on your breath and what you're doing rather than the random negative thoughts in your head. Youtube Ashtanga yoga and see if this is something you could try out.

Yoga May Elevate Brain GABA Levels, Suggesting Possible Treatment For Depression
http://www.scienceda...70521145516.htm

Edited by Matt, 17 March 2009 - 04:55 PM.

[edDe]

Have you ever tied going low carb?

For some people it can really help with anxiety.

[Luna]

Hey ^^

I had quite similar thing! I used to always feel impending doom and night terrors.
Sometimes panic attacks.

But it was most likely because I was thinking about death almost all the time without being able to put it out of my head.

Once I started being a bit more active in fun things and a bit of socializing, the anxiety was quite fast to disappear.

Can point to any thoughts that bother you that you might focus on, even just on the surface or right under it?

If you can, it will be easier to work it out.
The idea is to replace those thoughts by letting new thoughts in, positive ones (or just not scary).
Easy said! but doing that is hard, it's not just "in and out", you need to get yourself involved in something for it to happen on its own and it is easier if you get yourself involved in something without of hoping to do so in order to get rid of the anxiety.

Hope it makes sense! good luck

[bgwithadd]

Magnesium citrate is not very absorbale absorbable. It's used as a laxative, like magnesium oxide, though not as bas as that. Magnesium taurate also has taurine in it so really you are getting two great supplements in one. Inoic fizz, ioniz magnesium, is the most absorbable form, though, and a pretty decent price.

[nowayout]

*I am not opposed to therapy in principle, however I am also not enthusiastic about it because my anxiety symptoms are very physical in nature, and not particularly brought on by bad mental habits. I'm sure something like CBT couldn't hurt, but it also doesn't seem like my "miracle cure."

Many anxiety or panic disorders feel primarily physical, in that you are not necessarily aware of a specific cognitive trigger.

Especially when symptoms are felt to be primarily physical, CBT can be very effective. The B part of CBT would involve learning techniques or habits to deliberately address the physical symptoms. Also, even if you feel your problem is primarily physical, once you feel the anxiety coming on, there is very likely a cognitive component (feeling of dread or panic or whatever) where you catastrophize it and this feeds back into the physical symptoms.

The good thing about CBT is that, once you have successfully retrained yourself, you will not need medications. If it works for you, it is a much more robust and lasting solution than medications.

Having said that, CBT is not necessarily a quick fix, and would require work on your part. If you are not willing to be patient and put in the legwork, then CBT is not for you.

Edited by andre, 17 March 2009 - 07:19 PM.

[shaggy]

I agree with Andre CBT is worth a try, needs a lot more effort than popping a pill but the reward is the permanent easing of symptoms, at no cost, besides your time and effort.

As regards pills I have used propranalol - although moderately effective, the side effects it gives are awful. Long term use increases the risk of diabetes, damages lipid profile, reduces endogenous melatonin... I had terrible insomnia, lethargy, mood swings, brain fog on the stuff. Ultimately it up regulates receptors which worsens symptoms should you reduce the dosage or come off the stuff. Steer clear of it!!!!!!

I moved over to carvedilol for a time while I sorted my mental state out and found it was as effective at controlling my anxiety with a lot less side effects. I have since stopped taking that and rely on Theanine serene from source naturals and 5 htp for my calming agents. Seem to work well in combination. Although I might have to drop the 5 htp dosage back as I've had an elevated 5-HIAA result on a recent urine test. Will speak to my encrinologist about this.

Good luck!

Edited by shaggy, 17 March 2009 - 07:55 PM.

[OneScrewLoose]

I agree with Andre CBT is worth a try, needs a lot more effort than popping a pill but the reward is the permanent easing of symptoms, at no cost, besides your time and effort.

As regards pills I have used propranalol - although moderately effective, the side effects it gives are awful. Long term use increases the risk of diabetes, damages lipid profile, reduces endogenous melatonin... I had terrible insomnia, lethargy, mood swings, brain fog on the stuff. Ultimately it up regulates receptors which worsens symptoms should you reduce the dosage or come off the stuff. Steer clear of it!!!!!!

I moved over to carvedilol for a time while I sorted my mental state out and found it was as effective at controlling my anxiety with a lot less side effects. I have since stopped taking that and rely on Theanine serene from source naturals and 5 htp for my calming agents. Seem to work well in combination. Although I might have to drop the 5 htp dosage back as I've had an elevated 5-HIAA result on a recent urine test. Will speak to my encrinologist about this.

Good luck!

Would you say that carvedilol upregulates receptors less? Was it easier to come off of

Also, I take Ashtanga Yoga as well and really recommend it (or any yoga) for anxiety. I always finish my session feeling great.

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 17 March 2009 - 09:07 PM.

[shaggy]

I agree with Andre CBT is worth a try, needs a lot more effort than popping a pill but the reward is the permanent easing of symptoms, at no cost, besides your time and effort.

As regards pills I have used propranalol - although moderately effective, the side effects it gives are awful. Long term use increases the risk of diabetes, damages lipid profile, reduces endogenous melatonin... I had terrible insomnia, lethargy, mood swings, brain fog on the stuff. Ultimately it up regulates receptors which worsens symptoms should you reduce the dosage or come off the stuff. Steer clear of it!!!!!!

I moved over to carvedilol for a time while I sorted my mental state out and found it was as effective at controlling my anxiety with a lot less side effects. I have since stopped taking that and rely on Theanine serene from source naturals and 5 htp for my calming agents. Seem to work well in combination. Although I might have to drop the 5 htp dosage back as I've had an elevated 5-HIAA result on a recent urine test. Will speak to my encrinologist about this.

Good luck!

Would you say that carvedilol upregulates receptors less? Was it easier to come off of

Also, I take Ashtanga Yoga as well and really recommend it (or any yoga) for anxiety. I always finish my session feeling great.

Carvedilol does not up regulate any receptors, period. Not as numbing against anxiety attacks as propranolol, but still pretty good for me anyway. Never suffered any sinus tachycardia or palpitations of note when I was on it. Does not mess with lipids, probably improves them, as well as not decreasing melatonin production so sleep doesn't suffer either.

It's also a very powerful antioxidant having numerous benefits on cardiac function...I also found it a painless transistion moving from propranalol to it as well.

Oh and yes I had no problems coming off it, dropped the dosage gradually, from 50mg daily in divided doses to 12.5mg and then went cold turkey.

Edited by shaggy, 17 March 2009 - 10:14 PM.

[OneScrewLoose]

I agree with Andre CBT is worth a try, needs a lot more effort than popping a pill but the reward is the permanent easing of symptoms, at no cost, besides your time and effort.

As regards pills I have used propranalol - although moderately effective, the side effects it gives are awful. Long term use increases the risk of diabetes, damages lipid profile, reduces endogenous melatonin... I had terrible insomnia, lethargy, mood swings, brain fog on the stuff. Ultimately it up regulates receptors which worsens symptoms should you reduce the dosage or come off the stuff. Steer clear of it!!!!!!

I moved over to carvedilol for a time while I sorted my mental state out and found it was as effective at controlling my anxiety with a lot less side effects. I have since stopped taking that and rely on Theanine serene from source naturals and 5 htp for my calming agents. Seem to work well in combination. Although I might have to drop the 5 htp dosage back as I've had an elevated 5-HIAA result on a recent urine test. Will speak to my encrinologist about this.

Good luck!

Would you say that carvedilol upregulates receptors less? Was it easier to come off of

Also, I take Ashtanga Yoga as well and really recommend it (or any yoga) for anxiety. I always finish my session feeling great.

Carvedilol does not up regulate any receptors, period. Not as numbing against anxiety attacks as propranolol, but still pretty good for me anyway. Never suffered any sinus tachycardia or palpitations of note when I was on it. Does not mess with lipids, probably improves them, as well as not decreasing melatonin production so sleep doesn't suffer either.

It's also a very powerful antioxidant having numerous benefits on cardiac function...I also found it a painless transistion moving from propranalol to it as well.

Oh and yes I had no problems coming off it, dropped the dosage gradually, from 50mg daily in divided doses to 12.5mg and then went cold turkey.

Can you provide a link about the lack of upregulation with carvedilol?

[bgwithadd]

The problem I have with therapy is that it's basically a coping mechanism. Aside from relatively rare cases of PTSD, major problems are not caused because you got laughed at in gym class that time in 6th grade or because your daddy didn't say he loved you enough. It's almost like telling people they have black humours or thetans. It has some use but there's generally some real problem underlying things. You can have someone with bipolar disorder count to ten as a coping mechanism or chew a piece of gum any time they feel violent, and it can help, but it's just a bandaid on the real problem. Your brain's no different than your body, and there's still a big stigma to mental illness, but as with physical health there's very few people out there who will be remotely close to being in perfect health for their whole life (no immortals yet).

http://en.wikipedia....dose_naltrexone

Might want to check into this, too, btw. The pills come in 50mg tablets so they last ten days each. I just started on it today, and I am not sure if it's working but the science behind it is promising, and so is the fact it works so well for crohn's and IBS. In fact, I have never heard of something claiming to be so effective for either one. I would think this would help with anxiety, as well, due to the way it works.

Also, how could I forget to mention gotu kola? It is very effective for me, but the problem is it makes my stomach upset and it works TOO strongly. Most people seem not to get these effects, though. For me I take so much stuff it's hard to tell what's potentiating what. I'd also try valerian, which I use on and off, mainly for sleep but it's very calming in general without really causing drowsiness - just relaxation.

Phenibut is ok if you don't take it every day, as well. It's very strong (but nondrowsing) so I don't take very much or often.

I'd not recommend kava because it causes liver damage and it is also just kind of...not good. It will put me to sleep but it's very sedating, not really helpful. I will also pop back up 2 hours later on the dot if I use it as a sleep aid, so while it's used a lot it's just not very useful compared to many other things.

[Lufega]

I'm seriously going to try the banana peel tea as an antidepressant...I'll let ya'll know my results. In more interested in the causes of anxiety. So far, it seems that low norepinephrine leads to epinephrine dominance and this leads to the anxiety we know. While NE also activates the fight or flight, it doesn't act on B2 receptors. B2 are what propranolol block so I think Epi. is really the bad guy here not NE. It's all very confusing.

This is what I think happens, at least in my case. Low NE leads to E dominance and also to low BP. Low BP activates epineprhine further, which explains the "attacks" you feel throughout the day. Today , I was taking butcher's broom all day. I have low BP which leads to low cerebral perfusion and possible adrenergic activation. BB causes constriction of arteries raising BP. While on BB, I was more alert, sharper, processed info. better and had less anxiety. Could be placebo as it is the first day. We'll see if these results repeat. I noticed that after 4-5 hours, the effect of BB decreased, my BP dropped and I again felt brain dead and anxious. 20-30 minutes after another dose, anxiety went away and I felt fine.

[bgwithadd]

I'm seriously going to try the banana peel tea as an antidepressant...I'll let ya'll know my results. In more interested in the causes of anxiety. So far, it seems that low norepinephrine leads to epinephrine dominance and this leads to the anxiety we know. While NE also activates the fight or flight, it doesn't act on B2 receptors. B2 are what propranolol block so I think Epi. is really the bad guy here not NE. It's all very confusing.

This is what I think happens, at least in my case. Low NE leads to E dominance and also to low BP. Low BP activates epineprhine further, which explains the "attacks" you feel throughout the day. Today , I was taking butcher's broom all day. I have low BP which leads to low cerebral perfusion and possible adrenergic activation. BB causes constriction of arteries raising BP. While on BB, I was more alert, sharper, processed info. better and had less anxiety. Could be placebo as it is the first day. We'll see if these results repeat. I noticed that after 4-5 hours, the effect of BB decreased, my BP dropped and I again felt brain dead and anxious. 20-30 minutes after another dose, anxiety went away and I felt fine.

You might have low NE, but it might be a separate issue that causes your anxiety. Do you have trouble with concentration? Do you sweat very little? Dialated pupils? Maybe you do have low NE if so.

If what you want is to raise NE, then eating banana peels is kind of ridiculous to be honest. Do you even know how well absorbed NE is or what its halflife is? A big spike of NE is the last thing in the universe someone with anxiety problems wants.

I think that anxiety is more often likely due to broken glutamate system, perhaps problems with synthesyzing glutamine or else overactive glutamate system kind of driving your brain in overdrive in some areas. Of course, that's just sort of speculation, and like I said I am guessing there's a hundred potential causes. That, or not enough phenylethylamine or some other trace amine. I can't tell you how completely calm and impervious I feel on PEA and deprenyl. Only problem is it seems impossible to dose it just right so that you get the good effects without risking killing yourself.

If you do want to raise NE, the best thing to take is EGCG (sp?), a COMT inhibitor, or better yet wellbutrin. I can feel the NE pulsing and I get very irritable when I take EGCG but that's in addition to wellbutrin which I already take. The vast majority of the action of wellbutrin comes because it ups NE dramatically. It helps me with concentration but I find it makes me extremely anxious if I take too much, and my guess is that you will go through the roof. No one takes wellbutrin for anxiety relief, that's for sure.

[nowayout]

The problem I have with therapy is that it's basically a coping mechanism. Aside from relatively rare cases of PTSD, major problems are not caused because you got laughed at in gym class that time in 6th grade or because your daddy didn't say he loved you enough.

You're confusing CBT with psychoanalysis.

[Elana]

I forgot to mention (and forgot that I have taken) Valerian already. I'll edit the first post to mention that.

I looked into stuff like Kava Kava and Gotu Kola, and saw the potential for liver damage so I counted those out.

I don't really see myself as one of those people inducing subsequent panic attacks over worry about panic attacks (or over-reacting to initial symptoms), and in any case CBT is only reputed to significantly help one third of anxiety patients, moderately help another third, and provide no improvement for the final third. :-/

EDIT: Never mind, I guess I can't edit the first post.

Edited by Elana, 18 March 2009 - 04:22 PM.