44 replies to this topic

[unbreakable]

What do you think are the 20 most important supplements (not drugs)? If you could "just" take 20 which would they be? This is an old but never aging topic IMHO.

[balance]

My top 20 in no particular order for 2009 so far. No specific group or age specified.

curcumin
whole grape
pomegranate + cocoa
black theaflavins + amlamax
green tea
omega 3
magnesium aspartate
vitamin C
resveratrol
vitamin d3
vitamin k2 mk-7
SE-selenium
CoQ10 Ubiquinol
acetyl-l-carnitine arginate
carnosine
Na-Rala
pyridoxamine
quercetin
taurine
dhea

Edited by piet3r, 24 March 2009 - 10:17 AM.

[TianZi]

I take about half of the supplements listed, and some that aren't. However, I'm uncertain about several items on the above list, and I'm not sure if it contains any specific nootropics. To meet that need, I think vinpocetine + gingko biloba should be part of any "top 20" list.

There also don't seem to be any probiotics on the list, and i think there should be at least one.

(My personal list would also include glucosamine + chondritin + MSM, but likely wouldn't if I didn't exercise intensely daily.)


On to the supplements mentioned above whose place in that list I question *OR* that I need more information about; I am completely unfamiliar with a couple of them:

-Vitamin K2--granted it's important for bone health, but do we really need supplemental doses of it?
- pyridoxamine ?
- magnesium aspartate?
- amlamax?
- NA-RALA?

Edited by TianZi, 24 March 2009 - 11:08 AM.

[mikeinnaples]

In no particular order and perhaps a bit specific to me personally:

Na-RALA
ALCAR
Magnesium
K/mk-4/mk-7
D3
Vitamin A
Omega 3
Niacin
CoQ10
Astragaloside IV
Grape Seed / Pycogenol
Resveratrol
Curcumin
Vitamin C
Cocoa
Benfotiamine
Beta Alanine
Pomegranate
Melatonin
IP6



Edit: Dropped the 'drugs' ...though technically we can call resveratrol a drug now too can't we because of GSK/Sirtris?

Edited by mikeinnaples, 24 March 2009 - 07:58 PM.

[maxwatt]

Something to consider: how many of the above mentioned supplements interact in such a way that one may change the requirements or need for another, or even make another redundant or even harmful? What amounts of are desirable? For instance, it is easy to overdose on green tea extracts; more than the equivalent of 5 (large western size) cups of green tea a day may have undesired, even harmful results. Pomegranate and resveratrol and quercetin, in combination, may have an anti-aromatase action hat can lead to joint pain. Some of these act CYP enzymes, with results that vary with one's genetic makeup.

Any of the above may be helpful for some people, but combinations particularly of botanical extracts, need careful self-monitoring. I doubt if many people needs or should be taking all of these. You are welcome to prove me wrong if you think otherwise.

Edited by maxwatt, 24 March 2009 - 02:52 PM.

[unbreakable]

In no specific order:

1) EPA/DHA
2) Green Tea Extract
3) Cocoa
4) Resveratrol
5) R-Lipoic Acid
6) Pycnogenol
7) Pomegranate Extract or Juice
8) Melatonin
9) Silymarin
10) GliSODin
11) NAC
12) Carnosine
13) Sulforaphane + IC3
14) Benfotiamine
15) Vitamin D3
16) MK-7
17) Acetyl Carnitine (Arginate)
18) Ortho-Core
19) Curcumin
20) Grape Seed Extract

[pycnogenol]

magnesium aspartate

In the book, The Magnesium Miracle author Carolyn Dean M.D. says that magnesium
aspartate "may offer the body too much aspartic acid, an amino acid that causes brain
stimulation." She recommends avoiding magnesium aspartate.

I take Carlson Labs brand magnesium glycinate.

Edited by pycnogenol, 24 March 2009 - 03:31 PM.

[pycnogenol]

amlamax?

Life Extension has Amlamax in one of their products:

http://www.iherb.com...?pid=14501&at=0

AmlaMax (Emblica officinalis)
25:1 Water Extract (fresh fruit) [standardized to 35% hydrolysable gallo ellagic tannins (175 mg) by HPTLC

[spaceistheplace]

d3
Pycnogenol
EPA/DHA
Vit A
Astragalus
Vit C
Vit E mixed tocopherols
R-lipoic acid
Acetyl Carnitine Arginate
Magnesium
Taurine
Calcium MCHA
Vit k2 mk-7
Resveratrol
Cocoa
Green tea
Melatonin
Wild Blueberries (does food count?)
Coconut Oil
Bacopa

[mikeinnaples]

Something to consider: how many of the above mentioned supplements interact in such a way that one may change the requirements or need for another, or even make another redundant or even harmful? What amounts of are desirable? For instance, it is easy to overdose on green tea extracts; more than the equivalent of 5 (large western size) cups of green tea a day may have undesired, even harmful results. Pomegranate and resveratrol and quercetin, in combination, may have an anti-aromatase action hat can lead to joint pain. Some of these act CYP enzymes, with results that vary with one's genetic makeup.

Any of the above may be helpful for some people, but combinations particularly of botanical extracts, need careful self-monitoring. I doubt if many people needs or should be taking all of these. You are welcome to prove me wrong if you think otherwise.

Also something to consider is the 'when' .... for example, don't take resveratrol with or near your Astragaloside IV.

[steelsky]

These are the obvious ones:
R-lipoic acid
Acetyl l-carnitine (arginate if available)
Vitamin D, E and C (there are other important vitamins, but there are the front runners)
Selenium / Magnesium (I prefer orotate) / chromium (again, there are others, but these are the essentials for me)
CoQ10
Green Tea / Grapeseed / pomegranate / Curcumin (listed together as very potent antioxidants, but each has their own other benefits)
Resveratrol
Astragaloside IV (we've been hearing much about it lately, so it's in)
EFAs of course

Others:
l-Taurine
Carnosine
Melatonin
Chlorella and Spirulina (really under-appreciated, or at least not talked about as much as they should... has many vitamins in natural form and also chlorophyll and methylators and chelators and all kinds of nice stuff)

...I'm sure I forgot some.

[jessicantique]

"Something to consider: how many of the above mentioned supplements interact in such a way that one may change the requirements or need for another, or even make another redundant or even harmful? What amounts of are desirable? For instance, it is easy to overdose on green tea extracts; more than the equivalent of 5 (large western size) cups of green tea a day may have undesired, even harmful results. Pomegranate and resveratrol and quercetin, in combination, may have an anti-aromatase action hat can lead to joint pain. Some of these act CYP enzymes, with results that vary with one's genetic makeup.

Any of the above may be helpful for some people, but combinations particularly of botanical extracts, need careful self-monitoring. I doubt if many people needs or should be taking all of these. You are welcome to prove me wrong if you think otherwise."


this is very true. i remember somewhere i read that green tea interact with certain food and minerals (Ca ?) , becoming some forms of precipitate?

[JLL]

Could you also briefly mention why you're taking a specific supplement? People may have different reasons for taking them. Thanks.

[balance]

Hi pycnogenol,

That's (magnesium asparate) the very reason I was taking the aspartate version. That and that it's supposedly the best asorbable. I don't doubt that magnesium orotate and glycinate are great forms too though. I need to be awake and focused, so I don't take the glycinate. I take glycine separately sometimes before bed, and magnesium orotate isn't available in my area.

I don't see why some people put pycnogenol and grape seed in their list. I know a lot of the studies were done with pycnogenol, but paid by the manufacturer. Grape seed is essentially the same thing, and the whole grape I put in my list seems the most "whole spectrum" of them all, and far more potent. I didn't put I3C and sulphoraphane in my list even though I like them, the reason is that most supplement sellers are dosing them WAY below what they should be. Compare life extension's dual action cruciferous formula to a high quality I3C supplement... 14mg is just not gonna do the job. Also, I'm wondering whether Jarrow's Broccomax really is all that MAX. Benfotiamine I didn't put in my list because in non diabetic individuals it doesn't impress, and because I feel lipoic acid, pyridoxamine, chromium, carnosine, green tea, curcumin etc can all replace it.

Melatonin is impressive, but it had to be 20, not 21 items.

Chlorella and Spirulina I somehow fail to be impressed with... I have read a lot about it, but simply not convinced.

Blueberries, great food, not supplement. Here we have learned on the forum that the potency is simply ridiculous. Unless you're taking 25 blueberry capsules per day, it's useless. And even taking 25 is financially dumb.

As item 22 I would probably have added full spectrum vitamin E where u make sure it's a 2:1 gamma E to alpha E tocopherol ratio, only natural vitamin E and it has the tocotrienols in there. I find Life extension's full spectrum E to be the most potent, more potent than Jarrow's version.

Some people listed Metformin, but I thought he asked for supplements only.

Edited by piet3r, 24 March 2009 - 06:50 PM.

[unbreakable]

Some people listed Metformin, but I thought he asked for supplements only.

Yes, please no Metformin, Selegiline...

[delmet]

Niacin - because it is known to lower cholestrol at the least
CoQ10- to restore it to youthful levels (I am almost 40)
Vitamin C- I know for a fact (well almost a fact) that the reason I NEVER get sick any more is because I take as much of this as I can (ascorbic acid powder).
Cocoa- The research looks good, plus it makes me feel good. I eat the nibs, and drink the powder.
Melatonin- If for nothing else, it makes me sleep well, which in itself is an important thing.
Vitamin D- I think the research is pretty convincing at this point that it is important to supplement with vit D for a whole variety of reasons.
Vit K2- Seems important for vascular as well as bone health.
Omega 3- I think the case for this one is becoming sealed as it is for Vit D.
Pycnogenol- You know, the research looks good, but I think this is also driving my sex drive up the roof. It might be one of the other supplements though, like cocoa.

I also want to put resveratrol in there, as pretty good circumstantial evidence is building up for it. I think it will be the next thing for me.

[TianZi]

more than the equivalent of 5 (large western size) cups of green tea a day may have undesired, even harmful results.

What are you relying on in making that statement? This 2007 study?

"Possible Controversy over Dietary Polyphenols: Benefits vs Risks"

The study mentions that liver toxicity results from enormously high doses of Teavido, which in itself is a highly concentrated substance containing 90% EGCG. The toxic dose of Teavido in rats was 2 grams per kg of body weight. For an 80 kg man, that's 160 grams daily of Teavido. It is specifically stated in the study that no case of liver or other toxicity in a human has ever been reported in a controlled green tea intervention.

Further, the most significant positive benefits from drinking green tea seem to come at higher doses than 5 cups per day.

A landmark Japanese cohort study with 8,552 subjects that was published in the journal Preventive Medicine in 1997 found that green tea had a protective effect against cancer in all organs including the stomach, lung, colorectum and liver. This effect was most pronounced among females drinking 10 cups of green tea per day.

According to a 1998 Japanese study appearing in Cancer Causes Control, consumption of seven or more cups of green tea per day decreased the risk of stomach cancer 31 percent.

A study published in 1998 involving Stage I and Stage II breast cancer patients in Japan showed that subjects who drank more than five cups of green tea a day had a lower recurrence rate and longer disease-free period than subjects who drank four or less cups per day. This study, in which it was also shown that green tea consumption did not affect recurrence among Stage III breast cancer patients, was published in the Japanese Journal of Cancer Research.

We should keep in mind that Japanese tend to have a significantly lower body weight than Americans when interpreting these results. Granted, the tea cup may be 50% smaller, but not always. As a long-term resident of Taiwan, I can tell you that many of the people here drink far more than 5 cups of green tea per day. In this respect, many Taiwanese (like Japanese) believe it is unhealthy to drink cold liquids (a myth, but never mind), and so drink hot tea constantly throughout the day.

That's not to say you aren't right to caution prudence when deciding on a dosage for green tea, or whether to take it at all, as with any supplement. But I believe your maximum recommended dosage is too low for green tea.

[k10]

1. Fish Oil
2. Vitamin C
3. CoQ10 Ubiquinol
4. D3
5. Alpha Lipoic Acid
6. Magnesium Taurate
7. Resveratrol
8. Olive Leaf Extract
9. Grapeseed Extract
10. Calcium D-Glucarate
11. Molybdenum
12. Forskolin
13. Lithium Orotate
14. ASHWAGHANDA
15. Acetyl L-carnitine
16. Vitamin E
17. Zinc/Copper
18. Vitamin A
19. Vitamin K
20. L-Glutamine

[maxwatt]

more than the equivalent of 5 (large western size) cups of green tea a day may have undesired, even harmful results.

What are you relying on in making that statement? This 2007 study?

"Possible Controversy over Dietary Polyphenols: Benefits vs Risks"

The study mentions that liver toxicity results from enormously high doses of Teavido, which in itself is a highly concentrated substance containing 90% EGCG. The toxic dose of Teavido in rats was 2 grams per kg of body weight. For an 80 kg man, that's 160 grams daily of Teavido. It is specifically stated in the study that no case of liver or other toxicity in a human has ever been reported in a controlled green tea intervention.

Further, the most significant positive benefits from drinking green tea seem to come at higher doses than 5 cups per day.

A landmark Japanese cohort study with 8,552 subjects that was published in the journal Preventive Medicine in 1997 found that green tea had a protective effect against cancer in all organs including the stomach, lung, colorectum and liver. This effect was most pronounced among females drinking 10 cups of green tea per day.

According to a 1998 Japanese study appearing in Cancer Causes Control, consumption of seven or more cups of green tea per day decreased the risk of stomach cancer 31 percent.

A study published in 1998 involving Stage I and Stage II breast cancer patients in Japan showed that subjects who drank more than five cups of green tea a day had a lower recurrence rate and longer disease-free period than subjects who drank four or less cups per day. This study, in which it was also shown that green tea consumption did not affect recurrence among Stage III breast cancer patients, was published in the Japanese Journal of Cancer Research.

We should keep in mind that Japanese tend to have a significantly lower body weight than Americans when interpreting these results. Granted, the tea cup may be 50% smaller, but not always. As a long-term resident of Taiwan, I can tell you that many of the people here drink far more than 5 cups of green tea per day. In this respect, many Taiwanese (like Japanese) believe it is unhealthy to drink cold liquids (a myth, but never mind), and so drink hot tea constantly throughout the day.

That's not to say you aren't right to caution prudence when deciding on a dosage for green tea, or whether to take it at all, as with any supplement. But I believe your maximum recommended dosage is too low for green tea.

This study (full text free)

Chem Res Toxicol. 2007 Apr;20(4):583-5. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
Possible controversy over dietary polyphenols: benefits vs risks.

Lambert JD, Sang S, Yang CS.
Department of Chemical Biology, Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy, Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, Piscataway, New Jersey 08854, USA.
PMID: 17362033

two lines of evidence that suggest that EGCG can induce oxidative stress in vivo. First, intraperitoneal administration of EGCG resulted in the formation of two cysteine conjugates of EGCG (EGCG-2‘-cysteine and EGCG-2‘ ‘-cysteine) (17). These compounds were only formed at toxic doses of EGCG (200 and 400 mg/kg ip), and we propose that they arise from the formation of an EGCG quinone (Figure 1), which then reacts with the sulfhydryl group on cysteine and likely other cysteine-containing molecules such as glutathione. Second, treatment of lung tumor-bearing nude mice with either daily injections of 40 mg/kg ip EGCG for 40 days resulted in increased expression of phosphorylated histone 2AX (a marker of DNA damage) and metallothionein (a marker of response to oxidative stress) in the liver and tumors relative to vehicle-treated mice (Hou et al., unpublished results).

Of course the dose makes the poison. Yang Chung (one of the above authors) suggested up to 10 small cups of green tea were beneficial, not harmful, which I translated to 5 large western style mugs. Popping multiple green tea EGCG capsules to excess could lead to the kind of toxicity they describe.

[wayside]

more than the equivalent of 5 (large western size) cups of green tea a day may have undesired, even harmful results.

What are you relying on in making that statement? This 2007 study?

"Possible Controversy over Dietary Polyphenols: Benefits vs Risks"

There was a whole thread on this a while ago, there were cases of liver toxicity found when ingesting in the 700-2000 mg range of catechins:

Warning: Green tea supplements

[Barksdale]

1. Fish Oil
2. Vitamin C
3. CoQ10 Ubiquinol
4. D3
5. Alpha Lipoic Acid
6. Magnesium Taurate
7. Resveratrol
8. Olive Leaf Extract
9. Grapeseed Extract
10. Calcium D-Glucarate
11. Molybdenum
12. Forskolin
13. Lithium Orotate
14. ASHWAGHANDA
15. Acetyl L-carnitine
16. Vitamin E
17. Zinc/Copper
18. Vitamin A
19. Vitamin K
20. L-Glutamine

Good list:), but why do you have ASHWAGHANDA there? Does it really have any effect..

[Lufega]

I didn't feel any noticeable effects from ashwaghanda. In fact, I think it made me more irritable. I'm sure there's an explanation for that since my biochemistry is all messed up.

I could list the top 20 RIGHT NOW but that list will surely change as I fine-tune my regime based on MY needs.

Magnesium (glycinate, taurate, orotate, malate) (yes, I use all of them)
forskolin
bacopa
blueberry extract (some may say no, but I feel the effects)
Boron - highly underrated
Taurine
ALCAR
Phosphatydil serine
MACA
Royal Jelly
L-glutamine
Allithiamine (TTFD)
Coconut Oil
Celtic Salt
Colostrum
Chlorella/Spirullina
Quercetin (cured schamberg's disease which is supposed to be incurable)
Curcumin
MSM
Chanca Piedra (I've witnessed many unnecessary cholecystectomies)

[FunkOdyssey]

Of course the dose makes the poison. Yang Chung (one of the above authors) suggested up to 10 small cups of green tea were beneficial, not harmful, which I translated to 5 large western style mugs. Popping multiple green tea EGCG capsules to excess could lead to the kind of toxicity they describe.

I think this idea of 10 small cups = 5 large western mugs fails to consider the fact that a teabag is a teabag no matter how much water you use to fill a cup with.

[JLL]

Of course the dose makes the poison. Yang Chung (one of the above authors) suggested up to 10 small cups of green tea were beneficial, not harmful, which I translated to 5 large western style mugs. Popping multiple green tea EGCG capsules to excess could lead to the kind of toxicity they describe.

I think this idea of 10 small cups = 5 large western mugs fails to consider the fact that a teabag is a teabag no matter how much water you use to fill a cup with.

Indeed. But what many of the studies based on questionnaires don't report is whether "X cups of green tea" means X cups made by brewing fresh leaves each time (or using a new tea bag) or whether it includes using the same leaves several times.

[Dmitri]

I only use the following: supplements, herbs and teas

--Dr. Weil Mulit-vitamin/mineral tablet
--Green Tea (Tea bags; 1-2 cups daily)
--Hibiscus Tea (high in Vitamin C; 3 times a week)
--Vitamin K2 (100 mcg w/400 IU D3 and 100mg Bacillus subtilis Natto Extract)
--Vitamin D3 (2,000 IU)

I plan to buy another multi though, while I like the dosages Dr. Weil offers his tablets are huge and hard to swallow.

[maxwatt]

Of course the dose makes the poison. Yang Chung (one of the above authors) suggested up to 10 small cups of green tea were beneficial, not harmful, which I translated to 5 large western style mugs. Popping multiple green tea EGCG capsules to excess could lead to the kind of toxicity they describe.

I think this idea of 10 small cups = 5 large western mugs fails to consider the fact that a teabag is a teabag no matter how much water you use to fill a cup with.

Good point, and not a simple issue. If one were eating teabags, certainly, but we are drinking tea. Asian's don't traditionally use tea bags. Tea is brewed to a certain consistency, over-brewed tea is easily recognized as bitter, under-brewed as tasteless. Sometimes water is added to make it drinkable, diluting it. One teabag in a large mug versus one teabag in a smaller mug? One may compensate by longer steeping, but I also think that more water will dissolve more of poorly soluble substances such as EGCG, so that the volume of liquid will tend to correlate with the amount of polyphenols. It is still guesswork, approximation, and rule of thumb. In any case it would take a hell of a lot of tea drinking to consume unhealthy amounts of polyphenols.

Extracts are different. I suspect most supplement makers are aware enough not to put too much in a capsule, or their insurers are. It may be possible to overdose on EGCG supplements, but you'd have to work at it. Combinations of supplements? For instance EGCG + Curcumin + resveratrol + silymarin/milk thistle + quercetin? No one knows for sure what interactions, what doses are additive, which interfere with each other, how much is too much.

[TianZi]

Of course the dose makes the poison. Yang Chung (one of the above authors) suggested up to 10 small cups of green tea were beneficial, not harmful, which I translated to 5 large western style mugs. Popping multiple green tea EGCG capsules to excess could lead to the kind of toxicity they describe.

I think this idea of 10 small cups = 5 large western mugs fails to consider the fact that a teabag is a teabag no matter how much water you use to fill a cup with.

FYI Japanese and Chinese tea drinkers generally don't brew green tea from tea bags.

It's a multi-step process where the tea leaves are brewed in one pot, then strained into another, and strained again into a tea cup.

Edited by TianZi, 26 March 2009 - 02:57 PM.

[TianZi]

Of course the dose makes the poison. Yang Chung (one of the above authors) suggested up to 10 small cups of green tea were beneficial, not harmful, which I translated to 5 large western style mugs. Popping multiple green tea EGCG capsules to excess could lead to the kind of toxicity they describe.

I think this idea of 10 small cups = 5 large western mugs fails to consider the fact that a teabag is a teabag no matter how much water you use to fill a cup with.

Another problem with human studies in Japan and Taiwan (these two countries have done the principal work on green tea research as far as I know) relying on self-reporting by the participants based on the number of "cups" consumed is that the size of the tea cup is uncertain. This is because many people (outside the older generation) in both countries either prefer western dishware, or use both traditional and western dishware. I can say that my Taiwanese girl friend's entire family, outside of the oldest members, drink green tea using a western mug, and this is common in my experience (I've lived in Taiwan for over 15 years). That's not to say that many people don't continue using tea cups of the traditional size.

Residents in both Japan and Taiwan are much smaller in size (height and especially BMI at a given height) than Americans, which makes translating the results of a study with people on average at least 50 pounds lighter than their obese American neighbors across the ocean difficult.

[TianZi]

Moving away from green tea, what is a recommended daily dosage of curcumin based on a cumulative review of the host of studies showing its various and assorted benefits?

[HOTCells]

1. Astragaloside IV and Astragalus
2. Resveratrol
3. Curcumin with a bioavialibility enhancer
4. D3
5. MK7
6. CoQ10
7. ALCAR
8. low dose RALA
9. A good whole food muli without iron.
10. full spectrum E
11. Green Tea
12. IP6
13. Grape Seed
14. DHA/EPA
15. melatonin
16. DHEA
17. Copper/zinc
18. mag
19. selenium
20. lycopene