28 replies to this topic

[OneScrewLoose]

A year ago some of you may remember this post in which I detail how a supplement temporary fixed all my anxiety problems and then sent me into a complete nervous breakdown. I went from feeling the best I ever had to the worst. No one could explain why or by what mechanism it was happening.

A month ago, I go to this place called Scripps Institute for Alternative Medicine in order to get some answers. After looking over the bottle of stuff I took, he points to chaste berry as a possible culprit as it effects the dopamine system (agonizes D2 receptors). I started taking it about 5 days after I quit propranolol cold turkey when I realized it was upregulating receptors (bad idea). At first it helped a lot, nothing amazing like last time (I think the dose was smaller), but still nice. It made my body a whole lot more numb, which was nice (considering I am usually in a lot of pain from anxiety). But after a few days I stopped taking it. I went into what felt like horrendous withdrawl. And that was a month ago. I'm still in pain. It set me back months in how I've been dealing with my anxiety. What the worst of the anxiety attacks last time was Paxil, but all the SSRIs make my hands shake, not sure what to do.

I can't find a single report where chaste berry or that other supplement I took does anything of this sort to anybody. I feel like a freak.

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 20 April 2009 - 05:19 AM.

[Lufega]

Vitex is an interesting herb. At low doses it works as a Dopamine antagonist while at high doses it's an agonist. I've been wanting to try it for sometime but never got around to it. How much were you using?

[OneScrewLoose]

Vitex is an interesting herb. At low doses it works as a Dopamine antagonist while at high doses it's an agonist. I've been wanting to try it for sometime but never got around to it. How much were you using?

I was taking two to four of these a day for a few days. The bottle says take 1-4 so it's not an abnormal dosage. An interesting thing I noticed is that when I took it at night I didn't get any REM sleep. I was aware of being "asleep" the whole time I slept. When I took the Neogenix thing last year, this happened for the first night or two until it really took effect and I really felt good. I took three a day of those, morning, noon and around night. I think it had a higher dose of the chasteberry because the one I used just now is a whole plant extract.

I thought for a moment that it might have just been the prorpanolol withdrawal, but the real pain didn't begin until I started and stopped the chasteberry.

I feel like my dopamine system is broken. I have high anxiety, ADD and familial tremor. All the anxiety and much of my ADD went away during the period described in the thread above. I don't remember having and tremor issues either. I take selegiline right now, and it doesn't help the tremor nor does it greatly improve my ADD (though it helps some) so it's not an issue of quantitiy. I am not sure what to think.

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 21 April 2009 - 04:48 AM.

[bgwithadd]

Just because he says it is a d2 agonist, don' count on it. Even if that's true,t hat doesn't mean that's its only mode of operation. Truth is, there is little knowledge about what most herbs do or how.

If you were taking it at night and it was affecting your dopamine system much, then it would have given you totally insane dreams.

And on top of that the receptors affecting attention and movement are not the same. You're also going to get little enhancement to attention from dopamine antagonist, if any. It also makes no sense you would get such changes in anxiety.

So, I think that you are on the wrong track.

More likely this stuff bombs your gaba system. What you experiences is the expected result for someone who has anxiety. You feel great and more focused for a while, then it doesn't works so great, then you stop and you have panic attacks and feel like crap for weeks. You might want to try ashwangandha instead. It seems to work along the same lines but without the problems of a direct gaba agonist.

[lynx]

Vitex is progestogenic and progesterone is anxiolytic. Try some over the counter progesterone cream, and see what happens, if you get relief, you are on the right track.

[StrangeAeons]

my understanding of Vitex back when I looked into it was that its MOA is principally endocrine in nature (as per lynx's post). Thing is, it seems to have a dose related polymorphism, this is it seems to do one thing at a lower dose and the opposite at a higher dose. The reason I was looking into it was because of elevated prolactin, but you have to titrate the quantity to get the right effect. I imagine anything affecting your hormones, and especially your prolactin, would impact the efficacy of your Vitex.
EDIT: I should point out, the prolactin is important to understand because it has an antagonistic relationship with dopamine in the brain.

Edited by PetaKiaRose, 23 April 2009 - 01:43 AM.

[OneScrewLoose]

Vitex is progestogenic and progesterone is anxiolytic. Try some over the counter progesterone cream, and see what happens, if you get relief, you are on the right track.

Doesn't seem to be a very safe idea as a guy.

And Ashwagandha does almost nothing for me.

What is so curious to me is the unique effects the chaste berry has on me. And the even more unique effect that that entire supplement had on me which is linked here. For all I know, chaste berry is only part of the answer.

If chaste-berry assailed my gaba system, then I doubt I would be the only one to feel it.

[StrangeAeons]

Hormone panel? (got one? get one?)

[OneScrewLoose]

Hormone panel? (got one? get one?)

Got one immediately after the first incident. All normal with a high-normal test.

[Raccoon]

I've taken both Vitex and Propranolol. Didn't get any withdrawal symptoms from Vitex, but had a hard time with propranonol withdrawal with symptoms like jitters, head pressure and increased anxiety.

Vitex is a completely different story Awesome herb and my best uplifter, but very short lived. It's a D2 dopamine and mu-opiate receptor activator Iv'e took a drug with a low dose similar to Yours of a polish standarised extract: Herbapol, Castagnus

Mu-opiate receptor reference:

Activation of the mu-opiate receptor by Vitex agnus-castus methanol extracts: implication for its use in PMS.

Webster DE, Lu J, Chen SN, Farnsworth NR, Wang ZJ.
Department of Biopharmaceutical Sciences, College of Pharmacy, 833 South Woods Street, Room 335, University of Illinois, Chicago, IL 60612, USA.
The dried ripe fruit of Vitex agnus-castus L. (VAC) is widely used for the treatment of premenstrual syndrome (PMS). A previous study reported that extracts of VAC showed affinity to opiate receptors; however, functional activity was not determined. We tested two different VAC extracts in receptor binding and functional assays. Our objectives were: (1) to confirm the opiate affinity; (2) to rule out interference by free fatty acids (FFA); (3) to determine the mode of action of VAC at the mu-opiate receptor. Methanol extracts of VAC were prepared either before (VAC-M1) or after (VAC-M2) extraction with petroleum ether to remove fatty acids. Both extracts showed significant affinities to the mu-opiate receptor, as indicated by the concentration-dependent displacement of [3H]DAMGO binding in Chinese hamster ovary (CHO)-human mu-opiate receptor (hMOR) cells. The IC50 values were estimated to be 159.8 microg/ml (VAC-M1) and 69.5 microg/ml (VAC-M2). Since the defatted extract not only retained, but exhibited a higher affinity (p<0.001), it argued against significant interference by fatty acids. In an assay to determine receptor activation, VAC-M1 and VAC-M2 stimulated [35S]GTPgammaS binding by 41 and 61% (p<0.001), respectively. These results suggested for the first time that VAC acted as an agonist at the mu-opiate receptor, supporting its beneficial action in PMS.

The symptoms observed by me were: higher mood, a feeling that everything (including problems) is in right place, motivation, strong social anxiety decrease, feeling of comfort within my body, sometimes "mellow mood" at night, and on the first day a twilight sleep Is't it a opiate symptom?

That was a semi subtle effect (dose 3 tablets of Castagnus), but definitely not placebo.. The effect diminishes ...or You get used to it with time. It lessens in approx. in 3-5 day's from my observations.

Many women with PCOS in Poland (where i live) are getting pregnant by using Vitex (some times alone). It lowers LH, increases dopamine, progesterone and activates mu-opiate. What is funny, is that some of the same effect's are observed while fasting (alone) -> LH lowering, progesterone increase, opioid activation etc. Fasting give's me some kind of Vitex/Opite high, maybe the 1/3 of it, but without the energy (dopamine kick?).

Fasting impairs LH secretion in female rats by activating an inhibitory opioid pathway.

Dyer RG, Mansfield S, Corbet H, Dean AD.
Two experiments were undertaken to investigate the way that fasting impairs LH secretion and to assess whether endogenous opioid mechanisms might be responsible for the impairment. In the first experiment, pulsatile LH secretion was measured in a total of 51 chronically ovariectomized female rats. Initially 29 rats were subjected to food withdrawal for 24, 48, 72 or 120 h before the experiment. When compared with data collected from eight unfasted control rats, the 120-h fast was found to reduce significantly the mean peak and trough values of the LH pulses measured. However, in a subsequent study, the inhibition of pulsatile LH secretion by a 120-h fast was prevented in a group of eight rats given the opioid antagonist naloxone hydrochloride before the start of the blood-sampling period. Naloxone was without effect on pulsatile LH secretion in eight unfasted control rats. In the second experiment, plasma LH concentrations were measured before and after unilateral electrical stimulation of the ventral noradrenergic tract (VNAT) in ovariectomized female rats pretreated with oestradiol benzoate. In 17 rats VNAT stimulation caused a significant rise in plasma LH, but after a 72-h fast this rise was significantly less than in unfasted control rats. However, pretreatment of fasted rats with naloxone (n = 9) significantly enhanced the VNAT-stimulated release of LH to the control values. Naloxone did not potentiate VNAT-stimulated LH release in unfasted animals (n = 6) or LH release in control unstimulated rats (n = 12). The experiments indicate that both pulsatile LH secretion, and LH release caused by VNAT stimulation, are impaired by an acute fast. (ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

I think this topic is getting more and more intersting

Edited by Raccoon, 23 April 2009 - 12:15 PM.

[OneScrewLoose]

I've taken both Vitex and Propranolol. Didn't get any withdrawal symptoms from Vitex, but had a hard time with propranonol withdrawal with symptoms like jitters, head pressure and increased anxiety.

Vitex is a completely different story Awesome herb and my best uplifter, but very short lived. It's a D2 dopamine and mu-opiate receptor activator Iv'e took a drug with a low dose similar to Yours of a polish standarised extract: Herbapol, Castagnus

Mu-opiate receptor reference:

Activation of the mu-opiate receptor by Vitex agnus-castus methanol extracts: implication for its use in PMS.

Webster DE, Lu J, Chen SN, Farnsworth NR, Wang ZJ.
Department of Biopharmaceutical Sciences, College of Pharmacy, 833 South Woods Street, Room 335, University of Illinois, Chicago, IL 60612, USA.
The dried ripe fruit of Vitex agnus-castus L. (VAC) is widely used for the treatment of premenstrual syndrome (PMS). A previous study reported that extracts of VAC showed affinity to opiate receptors; however, functional activity was not determined. We tested two different VAC extracts in receptor binding and functional assays. Our objectives were: (1) to confirm the opiate affinity; (2) to rule out interference by free fatty acids (FFA); (3) to determine the mode of action of VAC at the mu-opiate receptor. Methanol extracts of VAC were prepared either before (VAC-M1) or after (VAC-M2) extraction with petroleum ether to remove fatty acids. Both extracts showed significant affinities to the mu-opiate receptor, as indicated by the concentration-dependent displacement of [3H]DAMGO binding in Chinese hamster ovary (CHO)-human mu-opiate receptor (hMOR) cells. The IC50 values were estimated to be 159.8 microg/ml (VAC-M1) and 69.5 microg/ml (VAC-M2). Since the defatted extract not only retained, but exhibited a higher affinity (p<0.001), it argued against significant interference by fatty acids. In an assay to determine receptor activation, VAC-M1 and VAC-M2 stimulated [35S]GTPgammaS binding by 41 and 61% (p<0.001), respectively. These results suggested for the first time that VAC acted as an agonist at the mu-opiate receptor, supporting its beneficial action in PMS.

The symptoms observed by me were: higher mood, a feeling that everything (including problems) is in right place, motivation, strong social anxiety decrease, feeling of comfort within my body, sometimes "mellow mood" at night, and on the first day a twilight sleep Is't it a opiate symptom?

That was a semi subtle effect (dose 3 tablets of Castagnus), but definitely not placebo.. The effect diminishes ...or You get used to it with time. It lessens in approx. in 3-5 day's from my observations.

Many women with PCOS in Poland (where i live) are getting pregnant by using Vitex (some times alone). It lowers LH, increases dopamine, progesterone and activates mu-opiate. What is funny, is that some of the same effect's are observed while fasting (alone) -> LH lowering, progesterone increase, opioid activation etc. Fasting give's me some kind of Vitex/Opite high, maybe the 1/3 of it, but without the energy (dopamine kick?).

Fasting impairs LH secretion in female rats by activating an inhibitory opioid pathway.

Dyer RG, Mansfield S, Corbet H, Dean AD.
Two experiments were undertaken to investigate the way that fasting impairs LH secretion and to assess whether endogenous opioid mechanisms might be responsible for the impairment. In the first experiment, pulsatile LH secretion was measured in a total of 51 chronically ovariectomized female rats. Initially 29 rats were subjected to food withdrawal for 24, 48, 72 or 120 h before the experiment. When compared with data collected from eight unfasted control rats, the 120-h fast was found to reduce significantly the mean peak and trough values of the LH pulses measured. However, in a subsequent study, the inhibition of pulsatile LH secretion by a 120-h fast was prevented in a group of eight rats given the opioid antagonist naloxone hydrochloride before the start of the blood-sampling period. Naloxone was without effect on pulsatile LH secretion in eight unfasted control rats. In the second experiment, plasma LH concentrations were measured before and after unilateral electrical stimulation of the ventral noradrenergic tract (VNAT) in ovariectomized female rats pretreated with oestradiol benzoate. In 17 rats VNAT stimulation caused a significant rise in plasma LH, but after a 72-h fast this rise was significantly less than in unfasted control rats. However, pretreatment of fasted rats with naloxone (n = 9) significantly enhanced the VNAT-stimulated release of LH to the control values. Naloxone did not potentiate VNAT-stimulated LH release in unfasted animals (n = 6) or LH release in control unstimulated rats (n = 12). The experiments indicate that both pulsatile LH secretion, and LH release caused by VNAT stimulation, are impaired by an acute fast. (ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

I think this topic is getting more and more intersting

Indeed. But why would the effect be so much stronger on me?

[tlm884]

By saying your Dopamine system is broken are you refering to you don't have enough dopamine or too much dopamine? If the case is you don't get enough have you tried Wellbutrin (Dopamine Reuptake Inhibitor) or Pramipexole (Dopamine Agonist)?

If you are having ADD symptoms then I would suggest Wellbutrin. Its doing amazing things for me. My grades went up dramatically as a result of taking Wellbutrin and my focus increased dramitcally, not to mention it helped my sleeping patterns immensley

[StrangeAeons]

Out of curiosity, have you ever tried selegiline or an out-and-out DA agonist?

[OneScrewLoose]

Out of curiosity, have you ever tried selegiline or an out-and-out DA agonist?

I am just getting off of 5mg of selegiline. It does help my ADD some but not enough and I think it ups my anxiety. When I said dopamine system broken I was thinking maybe some mutant genes for my receptors or a transport problem. The selegeline just seems to bludgeon my brain into focusing a little more. Will be moving to guanfacine for that.

The opioid receptor theory is really interesting, because there are few pains I have gone through worse than the breakdown I had last year. I would have rather been beaten everyday. But, again, why affect me so uniquely?

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 25 April 2009 - 02:16 AM.

[OneScrewLoose]

bump, anyone else?

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 28 April 2009 - 04:12 AM.

[OneScrewLoose]

I just wanted to add that I am still recovering from this. I was put on Buspar which made the anxiety a little better but sapped all my motivation. I was now just put on imipramine and I seem to be approaching normal functioning, though not quite yet. What's bugging me is whether or not it was the chasteberry alone that worked the first time around or the chasteberry and another ingredient(s) in the supplement.

This totally destroyed my quarter right now at UCSD (we have quarters instead of semesters). Last quarter I got an A+ in calc. This quarter I had to drop the class. I have a group project class that I've had to offload to my thankfully understanding groupmates up till now. The other class I am thankfully doing alright.

Just utter destruction in my life this thing has caused.

Does anyone object to trying the progesterone cream that one user mentioned?

[TigerMask]

OneScrewLoose, I'm sorry about what has happened to you. I've sometimes felt like I've done damage to myself either through odd supplements or through medicines prescribed by doctors, and I know how it can feel to not feel like your old self. Keep a positive attitude, that's the best thing.

I don't have any other advice but I was curious about Vitex as well. I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but can anyone reccomend a good brand or explain their experiences? I've been wondering about this for a while to treat anxiety/depression (opiates do this well), but maybe the whole estrogen thing is too risky.

[Happy Gringo]

From what I am reading, Vitex increases LH, which would tend to increase testosterone in men. I take it with P5P to keep progesterone down when taking prohormones that tend to increase it. I wonder if there could be vast differences in how it affects men as opposed to women, as far as manipulating hormones?

[OneScrewLoose]

It took a few months of recovery but I am a lot better now. I am also on Low-Dose Naltrexone which is doing really well with me. Has almost cured my ADD and made me a lot more composed.

As far as Vitex, I would say go for it. As far as I can tell, the effect is has on me is unique, so you should be fine.

[blind12]

Vitex is progestogenic and progesterone is anxiolytic. Try some over the counter progesterone cream, and see what happens, if you get relief, you are on the right track.

Or if you develop extremely stubborn gyno, get fat and lose libido and testosterone for months ? Progesterone is not something a guy would want in his system, unless his "male thing" was bulletproof.
I had an unexplained long episode of high endogenous progesterone and it was a nightmare. I was depressed and anxious, so progesterone certainly didn't seem anxiolytic.

[OneScrewLoose]

I tried the progesterone cream about 5 months back. Didn't do anything.

[blind12]

I have indeed noticed that some people are immune to the negative aspects of progesterone, and also progestins, e.g. deca used in bodybuilding. I figured it had something to do with either high dopamine, or high DHT.

[neogenic]

Vitex is progestogenic and progesterone is anxiolytic. Try some over the counter progesterone cream, and see what happens, if you get relief, you are on the right track.

Or if you develop extremely stubborn gyno, get fat and lose libido and testosterone for months ? Progesterone is not something a guy would want in his system, unless his "male thing" was bulletproof.
I had an unexplained long episode of high endogenous progesterone and it was a nightmare. I was depressed and anxious, so progesterone certainly didn't seem anxiolytic.

Not sure I'd use this at all. Increased prolactin (improved lactation is its primary use, PMS and menopausal issues are others), increased progesterone, HIGHLY phytoestrogenic (one of the highest plants in existence)...

Evaluation of estrogenic activity of plant extracts for the potential treatment of menopausal symptoms.
J Agric Food Chem 2001 May;49(5):2472-9
Eight botanical preparations that are commonly used for the treatment of menopausal symptoms were tested for estrogenic activity. Methanol extracts of red clover (Trifolium pratense L.), chaste berry (Vitex agnus-castus L.), and hops (Humulus lupulus L.) showed significant competitive binding to estrogen receptors alpha (ER alpha) and beta (ER beta). With cultured Ishikawa (endometrial) cells, red clover and hops exhibited estrogenic activity as indicated by induction of alkaline phosphatase (AP) activity and up-regulation of progesterone receptor (PR) mRNA. Chasteberry also stimulated PR expression, but no induction of AP activity was observed. In S30 breast cancer cells, pS2 (presenelin-2), another estrogen-inducible gene, was up-regulated in the presence of red clover, hops, and chasteberry. Interestingly, extracts of Asian ginseng (Panax ginseng C.A. Meyer) and North American ginseng (Panax quinquefolius L.) induced pS2 mRNA expression in S30 cells, but no significant ER binding affinity, AP induction, or PR expression was noted in Ishikawa cells. Dong quai [Angelica sinensis (Oliv.) Diels] and licorice (Glycyrrhiza glabra L.) showed only weak ER binding and PR and pS2 mRNA induction. Black cohosh [Cimicifuga racemosa (L.) Nutt.] showed no activity in any of the above in vitro assays. These data suggest a potential use for some dietary supplements, ingested by human beings, in the treatment of menopausal symptoms.

[dilenja]

It took a few months of recovery but I am a lot better now. I am also on Low-Dose Naltrexone which is doing really well with me. Has almost cured my ADD and made me a lot more composed.

As far as Vitex, I would say go for it. As far as I can tell, the effect is has on me is unique, so you should be fine.

OneScrewLoose, are you still taking LDN? I'm curious to know how LDN has worked out for you with regard to attention, focus, clarity of thought, motivation? I too am working my way through a degree with ADD (Inattentive). I've been considering LDN as a prospective alternative for a few months now, and am very interested to know about your experience.

[OneScrewLoose]

When I was tking 4.5mg of LDN, I couldn't eat. When I was taking 3, I couldn't eat much. My Dad starting taking it too a while back for other things. He took 1.5mg for three weeks, and then when he went up to 3, he had the same symptoms I had. He went back down and went back up again 3 months later without those symptoms. So a while back I went off for a month, and now I have been on 1.5mg for 1 1/2 months. I am gonna wait another 1 1/2 and then go to three again and see if I get the symptoms or not. I'll tell you how it goes.

What I am doing for my concentration right now is this:
http://www.imminst.o...Log-t36852.html

[dilenja]

When I was tking 4.5mg of LDN, I couldn't eat. When I was taking 3, I couldn't eat much. My Dad starting taking it too a while back for other things. He took 1.5mg for three weeks, and then when he went up to 3, he had the same symptoms I had. He went back down and went back up again 3 months later without those symptoms. So a while back I went off for a month, and now I have been on 1.5mg for 1 1/2 months. I am gonna wait another 1 1/2 and then go to three again and see if I get the symptoms or not. I'll tell you how it goes.

What I am doing for my concentration right now is this:
http://www.imminst.o...Log-t36852.html

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate you sharing your experiences. I too will let you know of anything I'm able to find which leads to progress. Also, if you haven't yet visited prohibitionkills.com, I think it is something you may find to be of interest with regard to LDN: http://www.prohibitionkills.com/ - very interesting site.


I personally suspect that many of the symptoms associated with Inattentive add could be related to decreased density/activation of the D4 receptor (which is of the D2 class of receptors). I've read that the D4 receptor interacts heavily with Glutamate in the striatum, and although my scientific background is limited, I would infer that D4 receptors play a role in the inhibition of Glutamate in the prefrontal cortex. I'm wondering if it is this suppression of Glutamate which facilitates selective processing within the brain, thereby leading to enhanced executive function and cumulative learning - Personally I find that when I take certain types of stimulants, ALCAR, Caffeine, for example, that although my brain is able to 'activate' information for usage far more rapidly, that my brain is not able to sift through the information quickly enough - which seem to mirror in many ways what are described as racing thoughts. The D4 receptor can purportedly also be potentialized by both NE and Dopamine, which could explain the limited success reported of 'both' Neurotransmitters when they've been delivered to the appropriate location.

Although there are a number of D4 receptor agonists used in research study, I'm not aware of anything, Medication or Supplement which is available that could facilitate upregulation of the D4 receptor. I'm kind of wondering based on your experience, if the upregulation effects of D2 by Chasteberry could also be extended to D4...

[OneScrewLoose]

The strangest thing though, the first time around, I didn't change the dose of what I was taking. I was feeling great and then broke down, all on the same dose.

[OneScrewLoose]

By the way, I got my prolactin tested a couple weeks back and it was almost at the top of the reference range for men, but not above it.

[panhedonic]

What was your prolactin level exactly?