22 replies to this topic

[desperate788]

I show some signs of high copper like being too sensitive and slight paranoiac tendencies ı thought of lowering my copper levels by using vitamim c 1000mg daily but it turns out to lower zinc levels too that may be bad for paranoia. So what are the options taking c vitamin with zinc? I use too many supplements at the moment and don't want to add more. Depending on only vitamin c for this situation will be suitable?

Edited by desperate788, 24 May 2009 - 11:17 AM.

[4eva]

I'm not sure that vitamin C chelates or lowers zinc.

Why not increase your zinc dose? Zinc chelates copper.

I don't understand your thinking that you take too many supplements to be able to add those needed to correct a nutritional problems. It sounds to me you don't think this copper-zinc imbalance is enough of a priority.

B6 helps balance copper and is good for your brain and neurotransmitters. Increasing your B6 dose until dream recall is several times a week is a good general rule. Both p5p and pyridoxine are the forms I would recommend.

[desperate788]

I'm not sure that vitamin C chelates or lowers zinc.

Why not increase your zinc dose? Zinc chelates copper.

I don't understand your thinking that you take too many supplements to be able to add those needed to correct a nutritional problems. It sounds to me you don't think this copper-zinc imbalance is enough of a priority.

B6 helps balance copper and is good for your brain and neurotransmitters. Increasing your B6 dose until dream recall is several times a week is a good general rule. Both p5p and pyridoxine are the forms I would recommend.

I take a b-complex including b6. You say you are not sure vitamin c lowers zinc but it's sure it lowers copper isn't it? If vitamin c is not enough then ı must consider zinc supplementation but ı take about 10 different supplements a day. Thanks.

[desperate788]

I'm not sure that vitamin C chelates or lowers zinc.

Why not increase your zinc dose? Zinc chelates copper.

I don't understand your thinking that you take too many supplements to be able to add those needed to correct a nutritional problems. It sounds to me you don't think this copper-zinc imbalance is enough of a priority.

B6 helps balance copper and is good for your brain and neurotransmitters. Increasing your B6 dose until dream recall is several times a week is a good general rule. Both p5p and pyridoxine are the forms I would recommend.

I take a b-complex including b6. You say you are not sure vitamin c lowers zinc but it's sure it lowers copper isn't it? If vitamin c is not enough then ı must consider zinc supplementation but ı take about 10 different supplements a day. Thanks.

And one thing to add, ı recall every morning about my dreams but ıt's weird that ı dream mostly close to ı wake up or the ones ı remember are so.

[4eva]

There may be some supplements you could stop taking for a while. Do you take vitamin D, vitamin K and magnesium? You might reduce the mg and eliminate the D and K for a time.

If you have high copper you could have high calcium. A hair analysis would be the best lab test to see this.

High copper causes high calcium. I'm not sure how bad your cu-zn imbalance is and how long you've had it; but it might be safe to assume that you've had it long enough to effect your calcium levels. You should avoid supplements that increase calcium levels.

You should work with a doctor who knows how to treat nutritional problems.

Balancing copper and zinc is not as easy as taking a little more of some copper chelates.

Edited by 4eva, 24 May 2009 - 12:54 PM.

[bgwithadd]

If you have high copper it's probably due to low zinc. Zinc is a natural destroyer of MAO-A, so it also makes sense that deficiency would mean problems.

[desperate788]

There may be some supplements you could stop taking for a while. Do you take vitamin D, vitamin K and magnesium? You might reduce the mg and eliminate the D and K for a time.

If you have high copper you could have high calcium. A hair analysis would be the best lab test to see this.

High copper causes high calcium. I'm not sure how bad your cu-zn imbalance is and how long you've had it; but it might be safe to assume that you've had it long enough to effect your calcium levels. You should avoid supplements that increase calcium levels.

You should work with a doctor who knows how to treat nutritional problems.

Balancing copper and zinc is not as easy as taking a little more of some copper chelates.

I2m on 400mg magnesium now. I take very little vitamind and no k vitamin. I concluded that ı may have high copper from things like being too sensitive, having very deep feelings and tendency to have paranoid thoughts.And I'm a heavy smoker these days. Vitamin c is mostly regarded as a safe supplement and ı plan to tak 1000 mg daily. what do you think. It will olso increase absorbtion of iron tablets ı take. Zinc seems the best solution for copper problem but it may interfere with iron absorbtion.

[VespeneGas]

Am I alone in believing that paranoia and sensitivity are insufficient grounds for diagnosing copper deficiency? I'd definitely recommend tracking your dietary intake of zinc and copper using the cron-o-meter before eliminating vitamins d and k, or supplementing either zinc or copper.

Vitamin C tends to be depleted in smokers :

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ogdbfrom=pubmed

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ogdbfrom=pubmed

vitamin C supplementation might help protect smokers:

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8964118
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16458200
http://www.circ.ahaj...tract/107/3/410
http://ajpheart.phys...act/279/3/H1172

I would also look into nicotine replacement, the patch definitely helped me quit.

[cumberlilly]

High paranoic tendencies can also be due to excess dopamine. Maybe you should eat more carbs and supplement with 5-htp.

[VespeneGas]

High paranoic tendencies can also be due to excess dopamine. Maybe you should eat more carbs and supplement with 5-htp.

citations needed.

internet diagnoses ftl.

[niner]

I2m on 400mg magnesium now. I take very little vitamind and no k vitamin. I concluded that ı may have high copper from things like being too sensitive, having very deep feelings and tendency to have paranoid thoughts.And I'm a heavy smoker these days. Vitamin c is mostly regarded as a safe supplement and ı plan to tak 1000 mg daily. what do you think. It will olso increase absorbtion of iron tablets ı take. Zinc seems the best solution for copper problem but it may interfere with iron absorbtion.

Keep taking the magnesium, and I'd recommend that you take a minimum of 1000 IU of D3. Some K2 would be a very good idea as well. There is no way that you can diagnose a copper deficiency from your thoughts and feelings; it just doesn't work that way. Listen to VespeneGas. Are you taking iron for a reason, like a diagnosed deficiency? Iron is a pretty dangerous supplement for males, and probably for post-menopausal women as well. Combining iron and vitamin C can be a bad idea depending on the amount of iron.

[cumberlilly]

High paranoic tendencies can also be due to excess dopamine. Maybe you should eat more carbs and supplement with 5-htp.

citations needed.

internet diagnoses ftl.

I should've emphasized the word CAN, I merely made a suggestion that he can follow to see if he improves.

[4eva]

He said he has been a smoking more recently so it is not just based on his symptoms.

Evidence indicates that multiple mechanisms may be involved in the production of reactive oxygen species involving metal ions in tobacco smoke. Similar mechanisms involving redox cycling with the production of superoxide anion, hydrogen peroxide, and hydroxyl radical appear to be involved for iron, copper, and chromium.
http://www.informaph...089583797197926

[VespeneGas]

He said he has been a smoking more recently so it is not just based on his symptoms.

Evidence indicates that multiple mechanisms may be involved in the production of reactive oxygen species involving metal ions in tobacco smoke. Similar mechanisms involving redox cycling with the production of superoxide anion, hydrogen peroxide, and hydroxyl radical appear to be involved for iron, copper, and chromium.
http://www.informaph...089583797197926

First, your link (titled: TOXICITY OF TRACE ELEMENTS IN TOBACCO SMOKE) doesn't say that cigarette smoking depletes copper; it considers copper a toxic trace element. It's saying that copper ions ingested through smoking contribute to oxidative stress. The next sentence states:

"However, some metal ions, such as nickel, lead, cadmium, mercury, arsenic, and antimony, deplete glutathione and protein-bound sulfhydryls, thus contributing to an oxidative stress in this manner."

Second, heavy smoking is a symptom of hypersensitivity and a tendency toward paranoid thoughts, not a cause. See http://apt.rcpsych.o...nt/full/6/5/327 . Nicotine is a potent anxiolytic.

Third, it appears that smokers may suffer from copper excess rather than deficiency:

Plasma copper and lipid peroxidation in cigarette smokers.
Lapenna D, Mezzetti A, de Gioia S, Pierdomenico SD, Daniele F, Cuccurullo F. Istituto di Fisiopatologia Medica, Universitá G. D'Annunzio, Facoltá di Medicina e Chirurgia, CHieti, Italy.

Plasma levels of copper and lipid peroxidation were evaluated in 14 smokers as compared to 14 nonsmokers. Plasma copper concentrations were higher in smokers than in nonsmokers (122.5 +/- 19.15 vs. 101.5 +/- 16.2 micrograms/dl, P < .01). Plasma lipoperoxidation, evaluated as fluorescent damage products of lipid peroxidation (FDPL), also was higher in smokers than in nonsmokers (20.35 +/- 2.6 vs. 17.1 +/- 2.95 units of relative fluorescence/ml, P < .01). A significant and positive correlation between the number of cigarettes smoked, expressed as pack years, and the levels of either FDPL (r = .61, P < .025) or copper (r = .55, P < .05) was found. Moreover, a significant and positive relationship between copper and FDPL values was observed in smokers (r = .64; P < .025), but not in nonsmokers. These data indicate that cigarette smoke-related plasma oxidant load may be partly due to enhanced levels of the prooxidant metal cooper, potentially suggesting the supplementation of specific antioxidants (e.g., zinc) to counteract cigarette smoke-induced oxidative stress in smokers.

PMID: 8582658 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

and from http://apt.rcpsych.o...nt/full/6/5/327
"Smokers had significantly lower serum concentrations of retinol, alpha-tocopherol, selenium, and zinc and increased concentrations of copper."

So if anything, a heavy smoker would want to supplement zinc, if anything at all.

[4eva]

I show some signs of high copper like being too sensitive and slight paranoiac tendencies ? thought of lowering my copper levels by using vitamim c 1000mg daily but it turns out to lower zinc levels too that may be bad for paranoia. So what are the options taking c vitamin with zinc?

QUOTE
First, your link (titled: TOXICITY OF TRACE ELEMENTS IN TOBACCO SMOKE) doesn't say that cigarette smoking depletes copper;??????

[VespeneGas]

I show some signs of high copper like being too sensitive and slight paranoiac tendencies ? thought of lowering my copper levels by using vitamim c 1000mg daily but it turns out to lower zinc levels too that may be bad for paranoia. So what are the options taking c vitamin with zinc?

QUOTE
First, your link (titled: TOXICITY OF TRACE ELEMENTS IN TOBACCO SMOKE) doesn't say that cigarette smoking depletes copper;??????

The article fragment you cited is discussing the pro-oxidative, carcinogenic effects of inhaled metal ions in tobacco smoke. From the article:

"The potential to cause cellular damage by metal ions in conjunction with other constituents of tobacco smoke is enormous. Various studies have demonstrated the role of reactive oxygen species in the toxicity of transition metals, and the presence of many highly reactive metal ions in high concentrations in tobacco smoke indicates a role for metal ions in the subsequent toxicity and carcinogenicity of tobacco smoke."

Inhaled iron, copper, and chromium are implicated in the "production of superoxide anion[s], hydrogen peroxide, and hydroxyl radical[s]"

They go on in the very next breath (as I already cited) to discuss how several other metallic constituents of tobacco smoke induce oxidative stress and deplete GSH.

Some links which substantiate my position, which I thought was immediately obvious from reading the essay you cited:

Inhaled Iron from Cigarettes induces oxidative damage:
http://ajrccm.atsjou...ract/153/4/1353

Cigarette smoke contains chromium:
http://www.weitzlux....fhealt_707.html

Inhaled chromium is carcinogenic:
http://www.epa.gov/t...f/chromium.html

Cigarettes contain copper and increases serum copper:
From PMID: 8582658
"Cigarettes contain copper; moreover, cigarette smoking may alter copper metabolism through specific cigarette smoking mediated hormonal mechanisms."

http://cat.inist.fr/...&cpsidt=2163571

Elevations in serum copper, erythrocytic copper, and ceruloplasmin concentrations in smokers.
Davidoff GN, Votaw ML, Coon WW, Hultquist DE, Filter BJ, Wexler SA.

Previous investigators have reported significant elevations of serum copper and ceruloplasmin levels in lymphoma patients and subjects using estrogen, but have not taken into account the smoking habits of these populations. In order to determine whether smoking had any effect on these variables, the authors examined five groups for serum and erythrocytic copper and ceruloplasmin levels: 40 healthy subjects, 14 users of oral contraceptives, 25 smokers, 14 nonsmoking pretreatment lymphoma patients, and eight treated lymphoma patients. Significant elevations of serum copper and ceruloplasmin in pretreatment lymphoma patients, treated patients, and estrogen users were found, confirming previous reports. In addition, all groups had elevations of erythrocytic copper compared with the healthy subjects. Also, significant elevations of serum copper (P less than .0053) and ceruloplasmin (P less than .0001) were found in smoking relative to nonsmoking subjects. No correlation between duration of smoking and these elevations was found.

PIP: Levels of serum and erythrocytic copper and ceruloplasmin are compared among groups of smoking and nonsmoking individuals, some of whom have taken oral contraceptives 97 subjects were studied. 40 were healthy subjects who were nonsmokers, and 4 users of oral contraceptives, 25 smokers, and 4 nonsmoking pretreatment lymphoma patients, and 8 patients under treatment for lymphoma were also studied. There were elevations of serum copper and ceruloplasmin activity for all 5 groups. By Student's t test, there were elevations of serum copper, erythrocytic copper, and ceruloplasmin in all 4 groups compared with healthy nonsmoking subjects at least at the P.01 level,; it was P.05 for erythrocytic copper smokers. Significant correlations of linear relationship between serum copper and ceruloplasmin were noted for all populations except smokers. No correlation was apparent between duration of smoking, or frequency of usage and elevations of serum copper, erythrocytic copper, or ceruloplasmin.

PMID: 717285 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

High serum copper increases mortality risk:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=16570028

High serum iron and copper are pro-oxidative:
http://www.springerl...666618q748uh55/

Please present a more lucid argument if you disagree with my analysis.

Edited by VespeneGas, 28 May 2009 - 06:04 AM.

[4eva]

Am I alone in believing that paranoia and sensitivity are insufficient grounds for diagnosing copper deficiency?

Yes, I think you're alone in thinking that a copper deficiency is likely to cause paranoia and sensitivity in a person who smokes.

[VespeneGas]

Am I alone in believing that paranoia and sensitivity are insufficient grounds for diagnosing copper deficiency?

Yes, I think you're alone in thinking that a copper deficiency is likely to cause paranoia and sensitivity in a person who smokes.

1. You've ignored virtually everything I've said.
2. I've never suggested that copper deficiency causes paranoia or sensitivity.
3. I said that paranoia and sensitivity are insufficient evidence to diagnose copper deficiency, to which you replied that increased cigarette smoking was more evidence of the likelihood of a copper deficiency. I then demonstrated that increased smoking was would result in increased serum copper, rather than copper depletion, and that his/her symptoms (paranoia, sensitivity, etc) would give rise to smoking, rather than smoking giving rise to copper deficiency, subsequently giving rise to his/her symptoms.

Your replies since then have been to stack question marks and misconstrue my statements.

[4eva]

"I show some signs of high copper" is clear. I never said anything about a copper deficiency. You did.

He had good reason to think he had a copper toxicity because of his smoking and his symptoms.

He also said he was smoking more (recently). What would cause chain smoking? My guess would be stress. Stress lowers zinc and therefore can make copper relatively higher.

There is no copper deficiency. Is that clear?

[VespeneGas]

"I show some signs of high copper" is clear. I never said anything about a copper deficiency. You did.

He had good reason to think he had a copper toxicity because of his smoking and his symptoms.

He also said he was smoking more (recently). What would cause chain smoking? My guess would be stress. Stress lowers zinc and therefore can make copper relatively higher.

There is no copper deficiency. Is that clear?

glah. Yes. I misinterpreted your earlier post, because I had accidentally typed copper deficiency in my original post rather than excessive copper. Though smoking does appear to be a risk factor for high serum copper, I'm still of the opinion that copper toxicity is merely a possibility, and that we aren't in a position to diagnose copper status at all.

[desperate788]

many thanks for your time and info guys. Yes there is really a confusing point, ı thought high copper may cause my symptoms like paranoid thoughts and suggested that vitamin c can lower copper levels as stated in some websites. Zinc turns out tobe the best way for this but ı think 100mg of c vitamin daily won't do any harm. I'm concerned at an other point, its written above that iron supplementation can be very dangerous for men why? We are already taking iron from foods so some extra iron supplement why would be dangerous? Anyways ı felt iron makes me stronger and ı'll go on with it..

[4eva]

many thanks for your time and info guys. Yes there is really a confusing point, ? thought high copper may cause my symptoms like paranoid thoughts and suggested that vitamin c can lower copper levels as stated in some websites. Zinc turns out tobe the best way for this but ? think 100mg of c vitamin daily won't do any harm. I'm concerned at an other point, its written above that iron supplementation can be very dangerous for men why? We are already taking iron from foods so some extra iron supplement why would be dangerous? Anyways ? felt iron makes me stronger and ?'ll go on with it..

It used to be thought that if you had too much iron stored in your body there wasn't any way of getting rid of it. I don't know if that is true though. Resv chelates copper and iron I've read. But iron stores can be toxic to the liver if the amount of iron is high enough.

You may have a problem that is related to iron or hemoglobin. And you may not need iron. If you become constipated from it that might be an indication that you're not absorbing it.

There are many other nutrients that might be the problem. Folic acid chelates copper. Folic acid can help with certain types of anemia.

Molybdenum chelates copper and helps with iron metabolism. Some supplements are a combo of molyb and iron.

You could have some other problem besides an iron deficiency.

You really need to work with a qualified doctor. You may create more problems than you solve by treating yourself, besides the potential problem with iron.

If you don't have insurance you might at least try a hair mineral analysis at least.

[nameless]

You can check ferritin/iron via serum (which I advise). A real bad idea for men to purposely consume iron, unless they are anemic.