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A Cautionary Tale


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#1 jimhawkens

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 06:35 PM


I'm a scientist, and I emphasize that this post represents only a subjective interpretation of personal behavior changes. For approximately 10 years I followed a regimen resembling on the whole that of Zoolander, with gradual modifications during that period that have always resulted in "more" rather than "less". Three years ago I invited two cats to live with me, and my severe seasonal allergies turned to chronic nighttime asthma. Refusing to follow allergist's recommendation to take meds, begin immunotherapy, and deport cats, I began experiments with supplement changes. Three years of trial and error led me to following current and vastly simplified, essentially "whole foods" regimen: Daily recommended dose of New Chapter's Every Man, Native Man, Breathe, and Histamine Take Care together with Pure Synergy "superfood" mix, fish oil and milk thistle supplements, and two glasses of organic red wine daily. Results? Asthma gone. Allergies significantly moderated. Running and biking performance significantly improved. Lower sleep requirement. Not certain what this means, if anything. But interesting, I think, nevertheless. Similar experiences out there?

#2 jimhawkens

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 08:02 PM

Also, diet remains modified paleo, consisting mainly of organic vegetables, fruits, sprouted nuts, and modest amounts of wild-caught, sustainable--sustainable at least for the time being--fish. Daily moderate to intense physical activity and meditation complete the mix. So, in keeping with good science, only supplementation has changed. In keeping with bad science, multiple supplementation changes make it difficult to draw focused conclusions, although I suspect that systemic changes in well-being resulted in my case from systemic changes in supplementation.

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#3 jimhawkens

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 08:26 PM

Whoops...forgot that I'm also supplementing with BioSil, which if nothing else has clearly resulted in dramatic increases in growth rate of hair and nails.

#4 nameless

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 09:08 PM

Brewer's yeast in Every Man may have had a similar immune modulatiing effect as Epicor supposedly does. Although I'm not so fond of the forms of vitamins they use in that product.

Or mushrooms + inflammation reduction had a similar benefit. Hard to tell when you took several things at one time. I don't think it was necessarily due to 'whole foods', but more of an immune system effect due to the yeast and/or mushrooms, with fish oil, etc adding a little extra anti-inflammation.

Edited by nameless, 06 June 2009 - 09:09 PM.


#5 jimhawkens

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 09:18 PM

Brewer's yeast in Every Man may have had a similar immune modulatiing effect as Epicor supposedly does. Although I'm not so fond of the forms of vitamins they use in that product.

Or mushrooms + inflammation reduction had a similar benefit. Hard to tell when you took several things at one time. I don't think it was necessarily due to 'whole foods', but more of an immune system effect due to the yeast and/or mushrooms, with fish oil, etc adding a little extra anti-inflammation.


Yea, thanks. I agree that the changes I've made resulted in moderation of systemic inflammatory response caused by...old supplementation paradigm?

Also, what about New Chapter's vitamin forms are you uneasy about?

Thanks again.

#6 nameless

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 09:48 PM

Also, what about New Chapter's vitamin forms are you uneasy about?

Thanks again.

I don't like their mineral choices much. It basically looks like they just fed a 'One-A-Day' to brewer's yeast -- Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Magnesium Oxide, Selenium Oxide/Sodium Selanate. Perhaps it is more bioavailable after being eaten up by yeast, but those are pretty bad forms to use.

#7 jimhawkens

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 10:13 PM

Brewer's yeast in Every Man may have had a similar immune modulatiing effect as Epicor supposedly does. Although I'm not so fond of the forms of vitamins they use in that product.

Or mushrooms + inflammation reduction had a similar benefit. Hard to tell when you took several things at one time. I don't think it was necessarily due to 'whole foods', but more of an immune system effect due to the yeast and/or mushrooms, with fish oil, etc adding a little extra anti-inflammation.


Yea, thanks. I agree that the changes I've made resulted in moderation of systemic inflammatory response caused by...old supplementation paradigm?

Also, what about New Chapter's vitamin forms are you uneasy about?

Thanks again.


Good point. A quick check of your hypothesis revealed the following:

Tompkins TA, Renard NE, Kiuchi A.
Institut Rosell-Lallemand Inc., 6100 Avenue Royalmount, Montreal, Quebec, H4P 2R2, Canada. ttompkins@lallemand.com
Zinc (Zn)-enriched yeast and gluconate are considered two of the more biologically available supplements. However, there have been few reports comparing the bioavailability of these supplements. The objective of this study was to demonstrate whether Zn was absorbed better by healthy male volunteers when given supplements where the mineral is found organically bound in yeast or as a salt gluconate form. The trial used a randomized, two-way crossover design. Urine, blood, and fecal samples were collected and analyzed over a 48-h period after a single dose of supplement. The net Zn balance and the relative bioavailability were calculated. No differences were observed in urine excretion of the two supplements. Zinc gluconate gave higher Zn concentrations in the blood in the first 6 h but also showed greater losses in the feces. Zinc yeast also increased in blood with time but showed significantly less loss in the feces. Thus, the net Zn balance after 48 h for Zn yeast was 9.46 but for Zn gluconate it was -2.00, indicating that Zn gluconate supplementation contributed to a net loss of Zn. It was concluded that organic Zn yeast supplements are more biologically available than Zn gluconate salts.

#8 jimhawkens

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 11:22 PM

Another paper relative to yeast-bound minerals.

Joe A. Vinson1, Thomas A. Tompkins2 and Gabriel A. Agbor1, 3

(1) Department of Chemistry, University of Scranton, Scranton, PA 18510, USA
(2) Institut Rosell Inc., 6100 Avenue Royalmount, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H4P 2R2
(3) Centre of Research on Medicinal Plants and Traditional Medicine, Institute of Medical Research and Medicinal Plants Studies (IMPM), P.O. Box 6163, Yaounde, Cameroon
Received: 18 October 2006 Revised: 5 December 2006 Accepted: 8 January 2007 Published online: 11 May 2007

Abstract There are many forms of mineral supplements currently available. Among these mineral-enriched gluconates and yeast are considered two of the more biologically available supplements. The purpose of this study was to use zinc (Zn)- or copper (Cu)-deficient rats to determine whether the organically bound mineral in yeast or the salt gluconate form was more bioavailable, i.e., is absorbed and found in a greater concentration in liver. It was demonstrated that Zn-enriched yeast was 3.7 times more bioavailable than the Zn gluconate and that Cu-enriched yeast was 1.4 times more bioavailable than the Cu gluconate.

#9 jimhawkens

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 11:30 PM

One more reason why I am beginning to question high-dose isolated vitamin supplementation: http://www.endocrine....aspx?rid=40170

#10 4eva

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 11:56 PM

I'm a scientist, and I emphasize that this post represents only a subjective interpretation of personal behavior changes. For approximately 10 years I followed a regimen resembling on the whole that of Zoolander...


Your title is "a cautionary tale" and I'm not clear on what you are cautioning against. Is it the regimen you followed based on zoolander's info since you stopped using that?

#11 nameless

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 12:03 AM

Yeah, I didn't quite get the cautionary bit either. Cautioning against over supplementing, or doctor's meds, or ?

I don't think any asthma benefit you received was from reducing supplements (although perhaps that was a good idea anyway), but from the new things you took, namely brewer's yeast/mushrooms/fish oil.

And those yeast bound studies do show improved absorption, but oxides are really crummy choices still.

#12 jimhawkens

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 12:13 AM

I'm a scientist, and I emphasize that this post represents only a subjective interpretation of personal behavior changes. For approximately 10 years I followed a regimen resembling on the whole that of Zoolander...


Your title is "a cautionary tale" and I'm not clear on what you are cautioning against. Is it the regimen you followed based on zoolander's info since you stopped using that?

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify. The "cautionary" reference has to do with my increasing--albeit still mainly hypothetical--concern that a regimen consisting of a complex soup of high-dose isolated supplements might need rethinking. My physics mentor told me early on: "a good scientist wakes up every morning and thinks, 'I might be wrong.'"

#13 dumbbellina

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 12:51 AM

Thank you for posting your experiences and wanting to help others avoid potential mistakes in supplementing.

Can you elaborate on the several year period of trial and error that led you back to a near whole foods diet? Did you cut back gradually or go on the supplement equivalent of an elimination diet, then work supps back in? I am interested to hear the thought processes you had in deciding what to cut out, as well as what you experienced when your regime changed. Thanks for any additional info.

#14 4eva

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 01:03 AM

How long have you had good, consistent results from the "whole foods" supplements?

Do you have any lab results that corroborate your subjective experiences?

Its possible your supplement choices made your histamine levels worse, your inflammatory response worse, your immune system more overactive.

We have no idea what kind of supplements you were taking and the dosages or your previous diet.

I'm not sure why this article you posted is relevent.
Health promoting effects of excercise diminished by vitamin c, e in people with diabetes.

You don't mention diabetes as a conditon you have.

#15 RoadToAwe

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 02:54 AM

Also, what about New Chapter's vitamin forms are you uneasy about?

Thanks again.

I don't like their mineral choices much. It basically looks like they just fed a 'One-A-Day' to brewer's yeast -- Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Magnesium Oxide, Selenium Oxide/Sodium Selanate. Perhaps it is more bioavailable after being eaten up by yeast, but those are pretty bad forms to use.


Yeast convert most of the inorgainic forms to organic forms just like plants.  For example in case of Selenium, yeast organisms convert Selenate to Selenomethionine which is highly bioavailable. 

#16 nameless

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 03:42 AM

Yeast convert most of the inorgainic forms to organic forms just like plants. For example in case of Selenium, yeast organisms convert Selenate to Selenomethionine which is highly bioavailable.

Interesting... I knew that yeast forms of vitamins might be more bioavailable, but assumed the form given the yeast mattered. How well does brewer's yeast absorb the oxides and what is it converted to?

#17 niner

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 04:23 AM

I knew that yeast forms of vitamins might be more bioavailable, but assumed the form given the yeast mattered. How well does brewer's yeast absorb the oxides and what is it converted to?

I don't know the exact degree to which oxides would be absorbed by yeast, but the pharmacokinetics in a simple single-cell organism will be wildly different than in a complex organism with multiple organs and highly evolved ways of dealing with xenobiotics.

Also note, our guts are full of bacteria. In fact, humans have more bacteria than they do human cells, so strictly based on cell count, we are mostly bacteria. (bacteria are small.) Those bacteria absorb and frequently modify the substances that we eat.

It's interesting that yeast can be used to make a more bioavailable form of various minerals, but how would it compare to something like an Albion chelate or other organic anions?

#18 RoadToAwe

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 05:28 AM

Yeast convert most of the inorgainic forms to organic forms just like plants. For example in case of Selenium, yeast organisms convert Selenate to Selenomethionine which is highly bioavailable.

Interesting... I knew that yeast forms of vitamins might be more bioavailable, but assumed the form given the yeast mattered. How well does brewer's yeast absorb the oxides and what is it converted to?

When it comes to selenium, yeast converts selenate/oxide to selenomethionine and selenocysteine. The final yeast product contains very little of oxide or selenate. You can find details here:


http://www.wcaslab.c...omethionine.htm

#19 EmbraceUnity

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 05:37 AM

I too have been helped in the allergy department the advice from people like zoolander, mitkat, etc. Just want to stress the importance of oral hygiene in reducing inflammation.

#20 nameless

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 05:39 AM

But what about Zinc Oxide and Magnesium Oxide? My concern would be since people absorb oxides pretty horribly, brewer's yeast will just look at it and go 'Bleh', not absorb it very well... and the end result will be oxide minerals in the final product.

And when yeast converts selenate/oxide to selenomethionine, what yeast is used? All types of yeast convert it in the same way?

Edited by nameless, 07 June 2009 - 05:42 AM.


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#21 kismet

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 10:30 AM

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify. The "cautionary" reference has to do with my increasing--albeit still mainly hypothetical--concern that a regimen consisting of a complex soup of high-dose isolated supplements might need rethinking. My physics mentor told me early on: "a good scientist wakes up every morning and thinks, 'I might be wrong.'"

Yeah, but that's not even hypothetical. That line ("I might be wrong") should embedded in your head, otherwise it will be embedded on your tombstone... However, I believe your story is also a cautionary tale against ignoring doctor's advise without getting a second or third opinion.
Our understanding of biology, drug interactions, drug metabolism, etc is pretty bad. Caution is necessary when supplement anything, but when you have a huge regimen it's even more important.

Edited by kismet, 07 June 2009 - 10:31 AM.





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