46 replies to this topic

[ChristianS]

How many days of stack before its safe to consume MDMA?

[Doc Eight or DE]

How many days of stack before its safe to consume MDMA?

Fail, MDMA or MDA isn't safe,even while using nootropics to protect the brain. I'd argue, that your still doing damage to your 5-HT receptors and causing huge oxidation stress on your brain. Plus who knows what else it is cut with, since their isn't much in the way of safety standards producing illegal drugs.

Edited by Doc Eight or DE, 09 June 2009 - 05:44 PM.

[ChristianS]

How many days of stack before its safe to consume MDMA?

Fail, MDMA or MDA isn't nootropic, while using nootropics protects the brain. I'd argue that your still doing damage to your 5-HT receptors and causing huge oxidation stress on your brain.

wrong section

Yeah I am fully aware of that. Just a theoretical question..

I refrase:

How many days pause before its "safe" to ingest MDMA?
And not as a part of noot-stack..

Oxidation stress? Hows that?

[russianBEAR]

I think a lot of yall are being hypocritical by saying one chemical is "safe" and the other is not. So, Adderall can help some people with ADHD greatly, but MDMA (which is a modified methamphetamine) causes "oxidative stress"? Somethin ain't right here.

Can someone also explain to me why there's a widespread belief that taking loads of different pills in sometimes huge dosages is actually GOOD for you?!?! Moreover, some people think that by stressing your body daily with pills (that's an additional load on the liver, kidneys, and gallbladder, not to mention a remote possibility of a stomach ulcer) they'll actually live longer?

I really just fail to understand that. If you want to improve your cognition, get the most out of your brain, fine. But everything comes at a price. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

----------------------

Now to answer your question. I'm guessing you're probably planning on "rolling" in the evening or at night, since that's when most people who are non-daily users do it

So if you want to have a "clean" effect (there's no other reason to wait really) then just don't take whatever you got in your "stack" the whole day prior to the experience, and if you can manage, go without your "evening/night" dose (whatever it is you're doing) the day before. That is if you're not taking stuff for sleep, then you still wanna take it because good rest will give you a better "roll".

Even combining MDMA with nootropics like even the good-ol-nasty Piracetam does not really give you any additional side effects, but you won't really get the "pure bliss" out of your experience, it'll be a more speedy trip where you think alot and yap about stupid stuff a whole ton.

^
As the person above me pointed out, that's considering you're actually getting pure MDMA. I had the luxury to get the purest stuff in powder form, and I don't know how you'll handle it if it's cut with, say, meth. Good luck to you then not chewing off your tongue buddy.

Edited by russianBEAR, 09 June 2009 - 08:15 PM.

[ChristianS]

I think a lot of yall are being hypocritical by saying one chemical is "safe" and the other is not. So, Adderall can help some people with ADHD greatly, but MDMA (which is a modified methamphetamine) causes "oxidative stress"? Somethin ain't right here.

Can someone also explain to me why there's a widespread belief that taking loads of different pills in sometimes huge dosages is actually GOOD for you?!?! Moreover, some people think that by stressing your body daily with pills (that's an additional load on the liver, kidneys, and gallbladder, not to mention a remote possibility of a stomach ulcer) they'll actually live longer?

I really just fail to understand that. If you want to improve your cognition, get the most out of your brain, fine. But everything comes at a price. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

----------------------

Hear hear. M8!

@ Doc Eight or DE

Really!!!! Were all adults here I guess!!??
And have a liberal view on alot of "stuff" , right?
We experimenting and developing, and dont equalize sociatys meanings with the one and only truth of whats good or bad for you.. right??
Dont really wanna go there right now cauze its so OFF topic.

FYI:

My gut-feeling tells me that a "roll", is just as toxic as alcohol etc. I can feel it! ya know?

We can take that discussion in another thread. PLEASE!

and please be serious, I am!

----------------------



.....As the person above me pointed out, that's considering you're actually getting pure MDMA. I had the luxury to get the purest stuff in powder form, and I don't know how you'll handle it if it's cut with, say, meth. Good luck to you then not chewing off your tongue buddy.

Thank you very much, RussianBear for answering my question..
It was helpfull. and yes its clean stuff.

Think I will stop taking piracetam a couple of days before then - LOL :D

thnx again.

Edited by ChristianS, 10 June 2009 - 07:57 AM.

[Doc Eight or DE]

I think a lot of yall are being hypocritical by saying one chemical is "safe" and the other is not. So, Adderall can help some people with ADHD greatly, but MDMA (which is a modified methamphetamine) causes "oxidative stress"? Somethin ain't right here.

Can someone also explain to me why there's a widespread belief that taking loads of different pills in sometimes huge dosages is actually GOOD for you?!?! Moreover, some people think that by stressing your body daily with pills (that's an additional load on the liver, kidneys, and gallbladder, not to mention a remote possibility of a stomach ulcer) they'll actually live longer?

I really just fail to understand that. If you want to improve your cognition, get the most out of your brain, fine. But everything comes at a price. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

----------------------

Hear hear. M8!

@ Doc Eight or DE

Really!!!! Were all adults here I guess!!??
And have a liberal view on alot of "stuff" , right?
We experimenting and developing, and dont equalize sociatys meanings with the one and only truth of whats good or bad for you.. right??
Dont really wanna go there right now cauze its so OFF topic.

FYI:

My gut-feeling tells me that a "roll", is just as toxic as alcohol etc. I can feel it! ya know?

We can take that discussion in another thread. PLEASE!

and please be serious, I am!

----------------------



.....As the person above me pointed out, that's considering you're actually getting pure MDMA. I had the luxury to get the purest stuff in powder form, and I don't know how you'll handle it if it's cut with, say, meth. Good luck to you then not chewing off your tongue buddy.

Thank you very much, RussianBear for answering my question..
It was helpfull. and yes its clean stuff.

Think I will stop taking piracetam a couple of days before then - LOL :D

thnx again.

o lord lol

[ChristianS]

o lord lol

Maybe I misunderstood you?
But I found it difficult to understand your answer, and WHY you answered as you did.

I am actually trying to understand how the various nootropics and moodenhancers work!

Please inlighten! That if U Are able to..

[Arc]

If you were going to take MDMA I would take ALCAR with it:

Acetyl-L-carnitine provides effective in vivo neuroprotection over 3,4-methylenedioximethamphetamine-induced mitochondrial neurotoxicity in the adolescent rat brain.

3,4-Methylenedioximethamphetamine (MDMA, ecstasy) is a worldwide abused stimulant drug, with persistent neurotoxic effects and high prevalence among adolescents. The massive release of 5-HT from pre-synaptic storage vesicles induced by MDMA followed by monoamine oxidase B (MAO-B) metabolism, significantly increases oxidative stress at the mitochondrial level. l-Carnitine and its ester, acetyl-l-carnitine (ALC), facilitate the transport of long chain free fatty acids across the mitochondrial membrane enhancing neuronal anti-oxidative defense. Here, we show the potential of ALC against the neurotoxic effects of MDMA exposure. Adolescent male Wistar rats were assigned to four groups: control saline solution, isovolumetric to the MDMA solution, administered i.p.; MDMA (4x10 mg/kg MDMA, i.p.); ALC/MDMA (100 mg/kg 30 min of ALC prior to MDMA, i.p.) and ALC (100 mg/kg, i.p.). Rats were killed 2 weeks after exposure and brains were analyzed for lipid peroxidation, carbonyl formation, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) deletion and altered expression of the DNA-encoded subunits of the mitochondrial complexes I (NADH dehydrogenase, NDII) and IV (cytochrome c oxidase, COXI) from the respiratory chain. Levels of 5-HT and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) were also assessed. The present work is the first to successfully demonstrate that pretreatment with ALC exerts effective neuroprotection against the MDMA-induced neurotoxicity at the mitochondrial level, reducing carbonyl formation, decreasing mtDNA deletion, improving the expression of the respiratory chain components and preventing the decrease of 5-HT levels in several regions of the rat brain. These results indicate potential benefits of ALC application in the prevention and treatment of neurodegenerative disorders.

PMID: 19015003

[russianBEAR]

And on the same topic - some people like to "pre load" their MDMA experience with say, 200-250mg of 5-HTP taken 4-6 hours before the trip to fill up their serotonin since MDMA "floods" your serotonin receptors with happiness it can have a significant effect. 

However again, it changes the course of your trip - when I did that I couldn't even get up from the floor from a relatively modest 150mg's, what you call "plastered", more similar to MDA in that regard (now if you're talking major neurotoxicity, MDA is much worse anyways).

So again, it's an option I guess though I liked me as pure an experience as possible before I "lost the magic" of that drug and it stopped working completely.

[NootropicEU]

And on the same topic - some people like to "pre load" their MDMA experience with say, 200-250mg of 5-HTP taken 4-6 hours before the trip to fill up their serotonin since MDMA "floods" your serotonin receptors with happiness it can have a significant effect. 

However again, it changes the course of your trip - when I did that I couldn't even get up from the floor from a relatively modest 150mg's, what you call "plastered", more similar to MDA in that regard (now if you're talking major neurotoxicity, MDA is much worse anyways).

So again, it's an option I guess though I liked me as pure an experience as possible before I "lost the magic" of that drug and it stopped working completely.

With all respect, but I don't really like discussions about illegal drugs here. It's supposed to be a forum for the Research of Unlimited lifespans

Those druggy topics will give a negative image to imminst.

[russianBEAR]

^

That would be something you need to tell to the threadstarter. I'm simply answering his question in this context. 

Although the difference between a drug and a helpful remedy is only in the dosage they say...

[Duke]

MDMA is safer than alcohol and tobacco, prolonged used of the latter notwithstanding.

As for the serotonergic arguments

http://www.mdma.net/depsave.htm

Exercise, fish oil, diet (i.e. decent lifestyle) will in general protect you from bodily damage. I see nothing wrong with occasional MDMA use.

[mdma]

quote]


With all respect, but I don't really like discussions about illegal drugs here. It's supposed to be a forum for the Research of Unlimited lifespans

Those druggy topics will give a negative image to imminst.

wow. threadstarter was asking for possible impacts of NOOTROPICS on recreational mdma usage, so its totally related and is in the right place. Imminst forum dont talk ONLY about life extension if you look around.

Good knowledge on recreational drugs can lead to better health in the end, and therefore avoiding damage to the human brain and body.

Erowid.org aint only for drug addict, it serves as a health and decision helper for those interested in recreational drug but looking to minimize negative impacts on their brain and mind, so is this forum dedicated on nootropic.

[Doc Eight or DE]

I think the issue here isn't the drug use, it's the responsible drug use. Please check posters threads he seems like he's a bit young from his writing style to be "taking stacks".


To thread starter, you don't want to burn out your brain. Secondly speaking from experience; you can do some damage or at least cause yourself OCD which can make you very annoying to everyone around you.

Hopkins Study Shows Brain Damage Evidence In "Ecstasy" Users

"...people who use (it) unwittingly put themselves at risk"

The common street drug "ecstasy" causes brain damage in people, according to a new Johns Hopkins study. In a report in The Lancet released this week, Hopkins scientists show that the drug -- known chemically as MDMA -- damages specific nerves in the brain that release serotonin, the nerve transmitter thought to play a role in regulating mood, memory, pain perception, sleep, appetite and sexual activity.

"We had long suspected MDMA was dangerous, based on our earlier studies in primates that showed nerve damage at doses similar to those taken by recreational drug users," says neurologist George Ricaurte, M.D., Ph.D., who led the research team. Additional studies by the team examined drug users' spinal fluid for levels of a serotonin by product; reduced amounts strongly suggested brain damage in humans.

"But this is the first time we've been able to examine the actual serotonin-producing nerve cells directly in the brain," Ricaurte says. Using a nerve-specific technique that took more than five years to develop, the scientists took PET scans of 14 men and women who reported heavy use of ecstasy. With a radio-labeled probe, the team targeted molecules -- serotonin transporters -- that normally reabsorb serotonin into nerve cells after it has done its job.

Like certain antidepressants, MDMA also attaches to serotonin transporters. The transporters lie embedded in the membranes of nerve cells, at the tips of fingerlike extensions called axons.

In the study, the PET scans showed MDMA users had far fewer serotonin transporters than controls who didn't use the drug. Also, the greater the use of MDMA -- some of the subjects had used it 200 or more times -- the greater the loss. "These losses are significant, and, along with our early studies in animals, suggest that nerve cells are damaged," says Ricaurte. Whether or not the cells are permanently damaged, he says, is uncertain. But in studies in animals, including primates, the losses are long-lasting and may be permanent in some brain regions.

The area of brain damage is diffuse but involves the endings of serotonin-releasing nerves that reach throughout the forebrain -- the "higher" brain that includes the cerebral cortex and adjacent areas, parts of the brain involved in thought, memory and emotion.

Ecstasy is a designer drug hybrid of the hallucinogen mescaline and the stimulant amphetamine. Users report a heightened sense of closeness with others, increased awareness of emotion and ability to communicate.

"They find these effects unique," says Ricaurte, "and we hope to use this new technique to explore the basis for good feelings, as well as for depression and anxiety. But our immediate concern is that people who use MDMA recreationally are unwittingly putting themselves at risk of developing brain injury."

As for direct behavioral signs of brain damage in heavy users of the drug, Ricaurte says, studies to evaluate possible differences in thought and behavior are well under way. "We have some early indications there may be changes in memory and cognition."

The PET technique in this study is the first that allows researchers to pick serotonin-producing nerves out of millions of others in the brain and view them directly, says Ricaurte. The team is already looking into applications of the method to study depression and Parkinson's disease.

Ecstasy is especially popular at "raves," the late-night, music-driven parties that attract hundreds of young adults.

Other researchers on the team are Robert Dannals, Ph.D., Ursula Scheffel, Ph.D., and Zsolt Szabo, M.D., Ph.D., of Hopkins; and Una McCann, Ph.D., of the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH).
Funding for the study was from the National Institute on Drug Abuse.


http://www.antidepre...ro-ecstacy.html

Edited by Doc Eight or DE, 11 June 2009 - 03:31 PM.

[mdma]

I think the issue here isn't the drug use, it's the responsible drug use. Please check posters threads he seems like he's a bit young from his writing style to be "taking stacks".


To thread starter, you don't want to burn out your brain. Secondly speaking from experience; you can do some damage or at least cause yourself OCD which can make you very annoying to everyone around you.

Hopkins Study Shows Brain Damage Evidence In "Ecstasy" Users

"...people who use (it) unwittingly put themselves at risk"

The common street drug "ecstasy" causes brain damage in people, according to a new Johns Hopkins study. In a report in The Lancet released this week, Hopkins scientists show that the drug -- known chemically as MDMA -- damages specific nerves in the brain that release serotonin, the nerve transmitter thought to play a role in regulating mood, memory, pain perception, sleep, appetite and sexual activity.

"We had long suspected MDMA was dangerous, based on our earlier studies in primates that showed nerve damage at doses similar to those taken by recreational drug users," says neurologist George Ricaurte, M.D., Ph.D., who led the research team. Additional studies by the team examined drug users' spinal fluid for levels of a serotonin by product; reduced amounts strongly suggested brain damage in humans.

"But this is the first time we've been able to examine the actual serotonin-producing nerve cells directly in the brain," Ricaurte says. Using a nerve-specific technique that took more than five years to develop, the scientists took PET scans of 14 men and women who reported heavy use of ecstasy. With a radio-labeled probe, the team targeted molecules -- serotonin transporters -- that normally reabsorb serotonin into nerve cells after it has done its job.

Like certain antidepressants, MDMA also attaches to serotonin transporters. The transporters lie embedded in the membranes of nerve cells, at the tips of fingerlike extensions called axons.

In the study, the PET scans showed MDMA users had far fewer serotonin transporters than controls who didn't use the drug. Also, the greater the use of MDMA -- some of the subjects had used it 200 or more times -- the greater the loss. "These losses are significant, and, along with our early studies in animals, suggest that nerve cells are damaged," says Ricaurte. Whether or not the cells are permanently damaged, he says, is uncertain. But in studies in animals, including primates, the losses are long-lasting and may be permanent in some brain regions.

The area of brain damage is diffuse but involves the endings of serotonin-releasing nerves that reach throughout the forebrain -- the "higher" brain that includes the cerebral cortex and adjacent areas, parts of the brain involved in thought, memory and emotion.

Ecstasy is a designer drug hybrid of the hallucinogen mescaline and the stimulant amphetamine. Users report a heightened sense of closeness with others, increased awareness of emotion and ability to communicate.

"They find these effects unique," says Ricaurte, "and we hope to use this new technique to explore the basis for good feelings, as well as for depression and anxiety. But our immediate concern is that people who use MDMA recreationally are unwittingly putting themselves at risk of developing brain injury."

As for direct behavioral signs of brain damage in heavy users of the drug, Ricaurte says, studies to evaluate possible differences in thought and behavior are well under way. "We have some early indications there may be changes in memory and cognition."

The PET technique in this study is the first that allows researchers to pick serotonin-producing nerves out of millions of others in the brain and view them directly, says Ricaurte. The team is already looking into applications of the method to study depression and Parkinson's disease.

Ecstasy is especially popular at "raves," the late-night, music-driven parties that attract hundreds of young adults.

Other researchers on the team are Robert Dannals, Ph.D., Ursula Scheffel, Ph.D., and Zsolt Szabo, M.D., Ph.D., of Hopkins; and Una McCann, Ph.D., of the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH).
Funding for the study was from the National Institute on Drug Abuse.


http://www.antidepre...ro-ecstacy.html

you are quoting a text on the mdma usage for HEAVY CHRONIC USER, tough the threadstarter was asking for advice on a SINGLE USE of mdma in the only goal or REDUCING POSSIBLE HEALTH DAMAGE.

mdma is a substance on its own, with specific and proper effects, so the hybrid thing with mescaline, yeah right...
There is hundreds of studies saying that ecstazy is BAD, and there is Hundreds of studies that says the complete opposite.

mdma= C₁₁H₁₅NO₂
Mescaline=C₁₁H₁₇NO_{3 similar chemistry; different properties....just like NH3 and NH4 are similar but totally different}

[bgwithadd]

Oh boy. You go into a rage about people pointing out the obvious about MDMA, but the original question and the later blathering really doesn't do anything to dissuade us from thinking it causes brain issues (which, if you think it doesn't, you are an idiot).

But to answer your super vague question - as for supplements, you should be fine with pretty much anything but probably not on same day. For prescription drugs, the warnings should be about the same as for adderall so you can just look that up on drugs.com. Basically, don't take it with anything at all, but especially not MAOs or most antidpressants (including deprenyl) for about a month.

[Doc Eight or DE]

I think the issue here isn't the drug use, it's the responsible drug use. Please check posters threads he seems like he's a bit young from his writing style to be "taking stacks".


To thread starter, you don't want to burn out your brain. Secondly speaking from experience; you can do some damage or at least cause yourself OCD which can make you very annoying to everyone around you.

Hopkins Study Shows Brain Damage Evidence In "Ecstasy" Users

"...people who use (it) unwittingly put themselves at risk"

The common street drug "ecstasy" causes brain damage in people, according to a new Johns Hopkins study. In a report in The Lancet released this week, Hopkins scientists show that the drug -- known chemically as MDMA -- damages specific nerves in the brain that release serotonin, the nerve transmitter thought to play a role in regulating mood, memory, pain perception, sleep, appetite and sexual activity.

"We had long suspected MDMA was dangerous, based on our earlier studies in primates that showed nerve damage at doses similar to those taken by recreational drug users," says neurologist George Ricaurte, M.D., Ph.D., who led the research team. Additional studies by the team examined drug users' spinal fluid for levels of a serotonin by product; reduced amounts strongly suggested brain damage in humans.

"But this is the first time we've been able to examine the actual serotonin-producing nerve cells directly in the brain," Ricaurte says. Using a nerve-specific technique that took more than five years to develop, the scientists took PET scans of 14 men and women who reported heavy use of ecstasy. With a radio-labeled probe, the team targeted molecules -- serotonin transporters -- that normally reabsorb serotonin into nerve cells after it has done its job.

Like certain antidepressants, MDMA also attaches to serotonin transporters. The transporters lie embedded in the membranes of nerve cells, at the tips of fingerlike extensions called axons.

In the study, the PET scans showed MDMA users had far fewer serotonin transporters than controls who didn't use the drug. Also, the greater the use of MDMA -- some of the subjects had used it 200 or more times -- the greater the loss. "These losses are significant, and, along with our early studies in animals, suggest that nerve cells are damaged," says Ricaurte. Whether or not the cells are permanently damaged, he says, is uncertain. But in studies in animals, including primates, the losses are long-lasting and may be permanent in some brain regions.

The area of brain damage is diffuse but involves the endings of serotonin-releasing nerves that reach throughout the forebrain -- the "higher" brain that includes the cerebral cortex and adjacent areas, parts of the brain involved in thought, memory and emotion.

Ecstasy is a designer drug hybrid of the hallucinogen mescaline and the stimulant amphetamine. Users report a heightened sense of closeness with others, increased awareness of emotion and ability to communicate.

"They find these effects unique," says Ricaurte, "and we hope to use this new technique to explore the basis for good feelings, as well as for depression and anxiety. But our immediate concern is that people who use MDMA recreationally are unwittingly putting themselves at risk of developing brain injury."

As for direct behavioral signs of brain damage in heavy users of the drug, Ricaurte says, studies to evaluate possible differences in thought and behavior are well under way. "We have some early indications there may be changes in memory and cognition."

The PET technique in this study is the first that allows researchers to pick serotonin-producing nerves out of millions of others in the brain and view them directly, says Ricaurte. The team is already looking into applications of the method to study depression and Parkinson's disease.

Ecstasy is especially popular at "raves," the late-night, music-driven parties that attract hundreds of young adults.

Other researchers on the team are Robert Dannals, Ph.D., Ursula Scheffel, Ph.D., and Zsolt Szabo, M.D., Ph.D., of Hopkins; and Una McCann, Ph.D., of the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH).
Funding for the study was from the National Institute on Drug Abuse.


http://www.antidepre...ro-ecstacy.html

you are quoting a text on the mdma usage for HEAVY CHRONIC USER, tough the threadstarter was asking for advice on a SINGLE USE of mdma in the only goal or REDUCING POSSIBLE HEALTH DAMAGE.

mdma is a substance on its own, with specific and proper effects, so the hybrid thing with mescaline, yeah right...
There is hundreds of studies saying that ecstazy is BAD, and there is Hundreds of studies that says the complete opposite.

mdma= C₁₁H₁₅NO₂
Mescaline=C₁₁H₁₇NO_{3 similar chemistry; different properties....just like NH3 and NH4 are similar but totally different}

Cool, care to share these studies?

Attached Files

•  funny_lookback.jpg   38.13KB   3 downloads

[mdma]

Ok...See im not saying taking mdma is GOOD for your brain, but the actual damage of a single intake is at least questionable.

the above text was mentioning heavy chronic user using mdma frequently for 5 years, while thread started as a single usage question on possible HEAVIER damage because of on going nootropics regimen. Also text says that mdma is an hybrid chemical of mescaline which it isnt, mescaline IMO is far more dangerous for a single use.

But to answer the threadstarter, Piracetam is known to lower mdma tolerance so your actual experience might be a lot stronger than expected.
Also MAOI`s are known to be quite dangerous when mixed with mdma.

[Arc]

Oh boy. You go into a rage about people pointing out the obvious about MDMA, but the original question and the later blathering really doesn't do anything to dissuade us from thinking it causes brain issues (which, if you think it doesn't, you are an idiot).

But to answer your super vague question - as for supplements, you should be fine with pretty much anything but probably not on same day. For prescription drugs, the warnings should be about the same as for adderall so you can just look that up on drugs.com. Basically, don't take it with anything at all, but especially not MAOs or most antidpressants (including deprenyl) for about a month.

Currently studies show that using deprenyl is probably a better way to go to mitigate at least some of the neurotoxicity of MDMA use:

Monoamine oxidase-B mediates ecstasy-induced neurotoxic effects to adolescent rat brain mitochondria.

3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA)-induced neurotoxicity and the protective role of monoamine oxidase-B (MAO-B) inhibition were evaluated at the mitochondrial level in various regions of the adolescent rat brain. Four groups of adolescent male Wistar rats were used: (1) saline control, (2) exposed to MDMA (4 x 10 mg/kg, i.p.; two hourly), (3) treated with selegiline (2 mg/kg, i.p.) 30 min before the same dosing of MDMA, and (4) treated with selegiline (2 mg/kg, i.p.). Body temperatures were monitored throughout the whole experiment. Animals were killed 2 weeks later, and mitochondria were isolated from several brain regions. Our results showed that "binge" MDMA administration causes, along with sustained hyperthermia, long-term alterations in brain mitochondria as evidenced by increased levels of lipid peroxides and protein carbonyls. Additionally, analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) revealed that NDI nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate dehydrogenase subunit I and NDII (nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate dehydrogenase subunit II) subunits of mitochondrial complex I and cytochrome c oxidase subunit I of complex IV suffered deletions in MDMA-exposed animals. Inhibition of MAO-B by selegiline did not reduce hyperthermia but reversed MDMA-induced effects in the oxidative stress markers, mtDNA, and related protein expression. These results indicate that monoamine oxidation by MAO-B with subsequent mitochondrial damage may be an important contributing factor for MDMA-induced neurotoxicity.

PMID: 17881526

3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, ecstasy)-mediated production of hydrogen peroxide in an in vitro model: the role of dopamine, the serotonin-reuptake transporter, and monoamine oxidase-B.

3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, ecstasy) has been shown to induce long-term deficits in serotonergic function in animal models. Several studies have suggested that dopamine (DA) uptake into serotonin (5-HT) terminals by the 5-HT reuptake transporter (SERT) and subsequent deamination by monoamine oxidase-B (MAO-B) leads to the formation of hydrogen peroxide and may be major contributors to this serotonergic toxicity. In the present study, when human choriocarcinoma (JAR) cells were exposed to MDMA (1.2 mM) for 6h, followed by treatment with DA (0.1 mM), hydrogen peroxide production increased over a 24 h period, peaking at 420% over baseline and decreasing cell viability by 30%. DA alone increased hydrogen peroxide production 84% over baseline, but did not significantly decrease cell viability. Incubation of MDMA treated cells with the SERT inhibitor, fluoxetine (500 nM) or the MAO-B inhibitor, L-deprenyl (0.1 mM) for 30 min prior to DA, significantly blocked free radical production and cell death. These findings support the hypothesis that the deamination of DA by MAO-B within the serotonergic cell can lead to hydrogen peroxide formation and ultimately cell death.

PMID: 15308297

The monoamine oxidase-B inhibitor L-deprenyl protects against 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine-induced lipid peroxidation and long-term serotonergic deficits.

3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA)-induced serotonergic neurotoxicity was assessed in the striatum, hippocampus and frontal cortex of rats by using [3H]paroxetine binding to label serotonin (5-HT) uptake sites and 5-HT and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) levels as markers of serotonergic function. NMDA (40 mg/kg) induced a significant decrease in both [3H]paroxetine binding Bmax and 5-HT and 5-HIAA levels 7 days after treatment. The monoamine oxidase-B inhibitor L-deprenyl (2 mg/kg) administered 30 min before MDMA blocked these decreases. MDMA (40 mg/kg) also maximally increased the formation of thiobarbituric acid reactive substances (an indicator of lipid peroxidation) 12 hr after treatment in all three brain regions studied. This increase in malondialdehyde formation was also blocked by pretreatment with L-deprenyl. Tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH) activity was also significantly reduced 18 hr after MDMA. L-Deprenyl reversed this decrease in TPH activity. Another experiment confirmed that a significant fraction of [3H]dopamine uptake into hippocampal synaptosomes was blocked by 500 nM fluoxetine, a selective 5-HT uptake inhibitor. These data suggest that the deamination by monoamine oxidase-B of excessive dopamine within the 5-HT terminal generates hydrogen peroxide that may lead to membrane lipid peroxidation, and perhaps other oxidative insults, resulting in selective 5-HT terminal degeneration subsequent to MDMA treatment.

PMID: 7538579

I'm certainly not arguing that MDMA use (or any amphetamine use for that matter) isn't neurotoxic or that it should be used at all.
But if someone was going to go ahead and use it regardless then the literature supports at least using ALCAR and L-Deprenyl as a means of migigating some of the neurotoxic damage.

As you said though MAO inhibitors in general and SSRI's should never be used as the most likely outcome will be serotonin syndrome.

[mdma]

Arc: those are quite interesting studies and thats an amazing site about brain chemistry thanks for posting it

http://www.ionchannels.org/

[kilgoretrout]

These studies on the neuro damage caused by MDMA that were so ballyhooed by the puritanical anti-drug/anti-pleasure assholes have been TOTALLY DISCREDITED!!! These researchers FUCKED UP BIG TIME, then went all over the media talking up and promoting over and over and over their GARBAGE RESEARCH. You see, really the whole thing was all about INFLATING THE EGOs of the "researchers" involved, plus an attempt to get more contracts, more money and more fame. They figured that adding fuel to the anti-drug bandwagon was a good way to do it. It was not about research at all, it was about ADVANCING THEIR OWN CAREERS, as evidenced by the TOTAL lack of care and controls in the way the did their stupid WRONG "research":

http://www.erowid.or...research2.shtml

Major Error in Ecstasy Research
Ricaurte's Team Accidentally Gave Monkeys Methamphetamine instead of MDMA
by Erowid
v1.0 - Sep 2003
In September 2002, a Johns Hopkins research team (led by George Ricaurte) published new research results in a controversial paper in Science titled Severe Dopaminergic Neurotoxicity in Primates After a Common Recreational Dose Regimen of MDMA. They reported that MDMA, when injected into non-human primates (monkeys) in doses similar to those used by some recreational ecstasy users, caused "severe" damage to the dopamine (DA) system of the brain. But in a major blow to their credibility, the Johns Hopkins researchers have now issued a full retraction of the article stating that all but one of the monkeys were accidentally injected with methamphetamine, not MDMA.

The original article stirred controversy for several reasons. The alarming results, which contradicted previous research and data about actual human use, suggested that even a single evening of MDMA use could lead to permanent and devastating problems. Despite the unexpected results, the Science article was worded to have a political effect and was used to help push through legislation aimed at punishing owners of venues where drugs such as ecstasy are used. The research was strongly supported by Alan Leshner, the former head of the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA). Leshner was head of NIDA when the Johns Hopkins research proposal was approved, and was then appointed chief executive officer of the organization that publishes Science prior to the research being accepted for publication.

As critics have questioned the results over the past year, the authors have vigorously defended their unprecedented findings. But in early September 2003, Ricaurte and his research team submitted a full retraction of the article to Science, stating that the monkeys had not been injected with MDMA at all. Rather, they had been injected with methamphetamine, a well-known dopamine system toxin taken at doses substantially lower than those of MDMA. The results, after injecting the monkeys with what turned out to be very high doses of methamphetamine, were dramatic but not unexpected given the actual substance used: two of the primates died from the injection, others were close to death, and there was serious damage to their dopamine systems.

This retraction highlights some troubling questions about the politics of science and its effect on the data that make it into peer reviewed literature.

Rick Doblin and the team at MAPS are following this issue closely and keeping a list of news articles and responses at: http://www.maps.org/...dyresponse.html. Some of these articles are listed below.

Related Documents
Text of Retraction
News Stories & Commentary
Ecstasy Agonistes, Feb 27 2004
Bad Trip on E, Dec 6 2003
Out of the Club, onto the Couch, Dec 5 2003
Ecstasy Researcher's Work Questioned, Dec 5 2003
The Agony of Ecstasy Research, Bailey - Reasononline Dec 3, 2003
An Ouchie For George, Mark Kleiman Dec 2 2003
Research on Ecstasy is Clouded by Errors, Dec 2 2003 NYTimes
RTI Denies Switch was their mistake, Nov 7 2003
Independent inquiry demanded into Ecstasy affair, The Scientist - Sep 18 2003
Retracted Ecstasy paper "an outrageous scandal", The Scientist - Sep 16 2003
It'll kill you -- wait, no it won't, SF Chronicle (Editorial) - Sep 15, 2003
E-fer Madness, Salon - Sep 15 2003
Scientists retract second drug study, Sunspot.net - Sep 12, 2003
Your Brain on Bad Science, LA Weekly - Sep 12 2003
Scientist: Research Error Undermines Drug Warnings, Reuters - Sep 11 2003
Withdrawal Symptoms: A controversial paper on the effects of Ecstasy is retracted, fuelling debate, The Economist - Sep 11 2003
'Killer' Ecstasy Claim was False, BBC - Sep 8 2003
Ecstasy study used wrong drug, withdrawn, Washington Times - Sep 8 2003
Controversial ecstasy research used wrong drug, New Scientist - Sep 8 2003
Journal retracts study on Ecstasy brain damage, CBC News - Sep 8 2003
Results Retracted on Ecstasy Study, Washington Post - Sep 8 2003
Scientists admit: we were wrong about 'E', Guardian UK - Sep 7 2003
Bottles Mixed up in Ecstasy Study, Wired News - Sep 7 2003
Report of Ecstasy Drug's Great Risks Is Retracted, New York Times - Sep 7 2003
RTI says Ricaurte is wrong about mislabelling

Audio / Video
The Science Show (Australia), Sep 20 2003 (real audio)

18 September 2003 Volume 425 Issue no 6955
Ecstasy's after-effect
Following the retraction of a high-profile paper, the US research agency that supports research on drug abuse needs to ensure its independence from intense political pressure to prove that recreational drugs are harmful.

It was a pretty peculiar result in the first place.Neuroscientist George Ricaurte and colleagues at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine in Baltimore,Maryland, reported that they had injected monkeys and baboons with the equivalent of three recreational hits of ecstasy, with shocking consequences. Two of the ten animals died, and nearly all the rest had damage to neurons involved in movement and mood.

It turns out that the researchers had injected the animals with methamphetamine â€" commonly known as speed â€" by mistake (see Nature 425, 109; 2003). The team deserves credit for the prompt retraction of its paper in Science. But there remains a bad smell that the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), which publishes Science, and the National Institute of Drug Abuse (NIDA),which funded the research,have done little to clear up.

The reverberations of the original publication â€" which was subjected to far more US media coverage than this month’s retraction â€" are considerable. The mislabelled bottle that the authors say caused their mistake contained 10 grams of methamphetamine, only about a gram of which was used in that particular study.Ricaurte told Nature that at least one more study will need to be retracted. The rest of the bottle’s contents were used in experiments that are as yet unpublished.

The retracted paper left the public with the impression that ecstasy is far more hazardous than it may actually turn out to be. This perception may have influenced the fate of the Reducing Americans’ Vulnerability to Ecstasy Act. The act, which was appended to another bill and signed into law in April, holds club owners responsible for drug use on their premises. Critics say it is unlikely to reduce ecstasy use, but may discourage club owners from voluntary measures to protect users, such as cool-off rooms for the dangerous overheating that can occur with ecstasy, as these are tantamount to admission that drug use is going on.The legislation might have passed anyway, even if Ricaurte’ s study had never been published, but the news certainly lent it urgency.

The impression that low doses of ecstasy,or MDMA,are extremely dangerous â€" misleadingly borne out by Ricaurte’s study, but not by two decades of observing the drug being used â€" will hamper legitimate research to determine whether MDMA could have useful psychotherapeutic properties.Proponents claim that MDMA can be a powerful adjunct to psychotherapy for conditions such as posttraumatic stress disorder,because it promotes self-awareness.At least three studies of this are now under way in Europe. But funding for such work isn’t forthcoming in the United States, and proponents say that part of the blame rests with Ricaurte’s now-discredited study. Another remarkable aspect of this episode is the public endorsement of the study, at the time of its publication, by Alan Leshner, chief executive of the AAAS and former director of NIDA. It isn’t clear why an officer of the AAAS should be involved at all in publicly promoting a particular result published in its journal, least of all one whose outcome was questioned at the outset by several experts. The AAAS issued the retraction late in the afternoon on Friday 5 September, resulting in low-key media coverage, which contrasts sharply with the hype surrounding the initial paper.

Some observers have in the past questioned NIDA’s ability to maintain its independence in the face of the immense pressures brought to bear by those who stand behind America’s interminable ‘war on drugs’. Now that Leshner is at the AAAS, he needs to safeguard its independence, rather than pander to the Bush administration’s jihad against recreational drug use.It falls to the new director ofNIDA,Nora Volkow, to bolster NIDA’s reputation.She might start with a thorough public review of the circumstances and participants’ roles in one of the more bizarre episodes in the history of drug research.



Nature: Nature 425, 109 (11 September 2003)

Agony for researchers as mix-up forces retraction of ecstasy study

JONATHAN KNIGHT

[SAN FRANCISCO] Drug researchers are this week hitting out at scientists who accidentally injected monkeys with methamphetamine or 'speed' when they were supposed to be studying the effects of the drug ecstasy.

In results published last September, a team at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore, Maryland, showed for the first time that repeated small doses of ecstasy damaged brain cells that produce the neurotransmitter dopamine in monkeys (G. A. Ricaurte et al. Science 297, 2260-2263; 2002). Deficiencies in dopamine are linked to neurological disorders including Parkinson's disease. But the researchers will retract their study in this week's issue of Science, after concluding that they injected the wrong drug.

Now critics charge that the team led by George Ricaurte was too eager to publish its high-profile finding in this case.

The original study was accompanied by a blaze of publicity in the United States, where it was widely interpreted as evidence that taking ecstasy can lead to brain damage. Johns Hopkins, the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) in Bethesda, Maryland, which funded the study, and Science's publisher, the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), each heavily promoted the result. Unusually, Alan Leshner, chief executive of the AAAS and former director of NIDA, publicly endorsed the study, saying: "It sends an important public-health message don't experiment with your own brain."

In their retraction, the authors say that they have been unable to repeat their results. After months of trying to trace the problem, they concluded that all but one of the monkeys had actually received methamphetamine, a powerful stimulant known to damage dopamine-making cells.

The mix-up occurred before the drugs arrived at the lab, the authors say. Similar quantities of the two drugs were ordered and arrived on the same day, their labels apparently reversed. Although the original vial labelled ecstasy has been discarded, tests on the methamphetamine vial show that it contained pure ecstasy, the retraction says.

But the authors should have been suspicious sooner, says Charles Grob, a psychiatrist at the Harbor-UCLA Medical Center in Los Angeles who studies ecstasy, also known as MDMA. "It was implausible that MDMA could have caused those findings," he says. Critics have argued that the study, in which the injections resulted in the sudden death of two out of ten monkeys, could not be representative of recreational ecstasy use by people.

Grob and other critics have in the past argued that other studies by Ricaurte, drawing on brain scans, were equally inconclusive. "This is part of a pattern in Ricaurte's work," Grob alleges.

John Henry, a psychoactive-drug researcher at Imperial College, London, characterizes the retraction as a carefully worded plea for more money. He points out that the last sentence leaves open the possibility that the basic result is right, despite failed attempts to repeat the experiment. "It's extremely arrogant," he says. Henry claims that NIDA favours studies that are liable to prove the toxicity of recreational drugs.

Ricaurte could not be reached for comment but his wife and co-author, Hopkins researcher Una McCann, defended the basic hypothesis that ecstasy use can cause Parkinson-like symptoms. She says that it is clearly toxic to dopamine cells in mice, for instance. "We thought we were getting the high levels of dopamine toxicity seen in other species," she says.

Michael Taffe, who studies MDMA at the Scripps Research Institute in La Jolla, California, says that it would have been a tough call whether to publish the original paper, given the potential importance of the finding. Nor would anyone normally test the contents of a labelled bottle from a manufacturer: "I don't know what I would have done," he says.

Ricaurte's group ordered the drugs from NIDA, which supplies approved researchers through a contractor, RTI International of Research Triangle Park, North Carolina. RTI said in a statement that it was reviewing procedures, but has no evidence that it had made a mistake.

NIDA associate director Timothy Condon says that NIDA will assist RTI in the review, but that there would be no further investigation of how the mix-up occurred. "We have asked RTI to look at their procedures," he says. "I don't know what else we could do."

But Grob doubts whether there will be a real attempt to get to the bottom of the episode. "I think NIDA needs to answer some questions," he says.

© 2003 Nature Publishing Group

Cartoon Idea:
Monkey #1: Dude, how was that E you scored last week?
Monkey #2: It was f*cking speed. Again.
Monkey #1: Bummer, dude.
carter (metafilter.com) sep 2003

[kilgoretrout]

**** BE SURE TO READ:
**** "Deconstructing Ecstasy" by Dr. Charles Grob.
**** http://www.maps.org/...grob_1139_1.pdf


http://www.maps.org/...dyresponse.html

George Ricaurte retracts his paper published in Science claiming that Ecstasy causes severe dopaminergic depletion and can lead to Parkinson's disease.

For a paper critiquing the methodology and conclusions of some of Dr. Ricaurte's other papers, read "Deconstructing Ecstasy" by Dr. Charles Grob.

Learn more about this amazing development:

December 23, 2005. An article by Reuters news service, "Medical frauds: Korean scientist hardly the first", lists several previous articles that have had to be withdrawn from major medical journals. Included in the list is the 2002 paper in /Science/ by Ricaurte/McCann claiming that MDMA damaged dopamine neurons and could cause Parkinson's, retracted since the animals had actually been administered methamphetamine and not MDMA.

August 2, 2005. Ironically, after NIDA-funded researchers Drs. McCann and Ricaurte claimed that MDMA damaged dopamine neurons and could cause Parkinson's disease, a claim that they later had to retract, new research conducted at Duke University Medical Center has shown that MDMA is the most effective of 60 drugs tested in reversing the symptoms of Parkinson's disease! This research was discussed in an article in News-Medical.Net; note also a brief commentary on this and other related research into MDMA as an anti-Parkinson's disease treatment.

October 12, 2004. As a result of a FOIA request made earlier this year, MAPS now has information on National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) funding awarded to Dr. George Ricaurte and Dr. Una McCann in 2003 for the study of MDMA (Ecstasy) neurotoxicity and functional consequnces of Ecstasy use. The pair of Johns Hopkins researchers were awarded over $1.8 million dollars during 2003. This brings their total government funding to more than $16.4 million since 1989.

September 14, 2004. The journal Movement Disorders has recently published two letters in response to a report of parkinsonism in a former ecstasy user, and include a reply from the authors of the case report. The two letters include a letter authored by MAPS' Lisa Jerome and Rick Doblin and MDMA/PTSD study principal investigator Michael Mithoefer, and a report of a transient dystonia appearing after Ecstasy use. In their reply to both letters, the authors acknowledge the likely rarity of movement disorders associated with Ecstasy use, but fail to discuss the lack of evidence for a relationship between Ecstasy use and movement disorders.

July 25, 2004. A front page article in the Sunday Baltimore Sun discussed MAPS' MDMA psychotherapy research in a favorable light, illustrated with a photo of Rick Doblin. Of special note is the conclusion, in which Dr. George Ricaurte says that MDMA may one day find a place as an accepted medication. On July 29, the Sun published a clarification to the article.

July 21, 2004. Nature publishes an excellent editorial about the conflict between science and politics at NIDA, using as an example exaggerations of the risks of MDMA by Dr. Alan Leshner, ex-Director of NIDA.

May 13, 2004. Nature publishes a lengthy article and editorial about MDMA psychotherapy research. The articles, about which Rick Doblin has written a lengthy commentary, are supportive of MAPS' research efforts. Alex Gamma wrote a letter to the editor responding to claims of insufficient knowledge of extent of risks in human trials made in the piece and providing greater detail on a human trial of MDMA described in the article.

April 9, 2004. MAPS issues a report based on documents obtained through Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests showing that from 1989-2002, Drs. Ricaurte and McCann received federal grants totaling over $14.6 million dollars for MDMA and MDMA-related research. (A FOIA request for 2003 data has been submitted.) This is a rather amazing amount of money and suggests that Drs. Ricaurte and McCann had some powerful incentives to exaggerate the risks of MDMA. This also speaks volumes about our society's warped priorities in that not a single penny of federal money has been awarded to explore any of the therapeutic uses of MDMA. This is an imbalance that MAPS hopes to rectify over the coming years.

April 6, 2004. In an article on good practices and proper conduct of biomedical research published in EMBO reports ("a print and online publication dedicated to providing a variety of sharply focused and rapidly published short papers and review articles in all areas of molecular biology"), Dr. Ricaurte's retraction of his MDMA/Parkinson's paper in Science is used as an example of how "even world-renowned researchers must be vigilant about properly verifying and documenting their work."

In an article in Talon News (bringing the conservative message to America), the fundamentalist drug warrior, Rep, Mark Souder, Chairman of the House Government Reform Subcommittee on Criminal Justice, Drug Policy, and Human Resources and author of the infamous law that denies educational loans to students with a prior drug conviction, has strongly criticized Peter Jennings's Ecstasy Rising documentary. Rep. Souder's criticisms of Peter Jennings' "lack of a moral compass" demonstrate yet again that the Drug War is a holy, moral crusade where facts are subjugated to ideology.

April 5, 2004. Video archives of the Peter Jennings special, Ecstasy Rising, are now available.

April 1, 2004. Ecstasy Rising. Federal Campaign to Curb Club Drug Use Hasn't Dimmed Its Popularity, ABCNEWS.

Club Drug Tested as Treatment for Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder By Bob Woodruff, ABCNEWS.

Here are Mark Kleiman's comments on the ABC TV documentary.

March 10, 2004. The Ecstasy Factor - Bad Science Slandered a Generation's Favorite Drug. Now a New Study Aims to Undo the Damage, by Carla Spartos, Village Voice.

This is a strong, hard-hiting article.

March 2, 2004. DEA Accedes to Ecstasy Test by Kristen Philipkoski, Wired News. This article contains a remarkable quote from George Ricaurte giving qualified support for the MDMA/PTSD study.

DEA Approves Trial Use Of Ecstasy in Trauma Cases, Rick Weiss, The Washington Post

also see comments on and corrections to the WP article by Ilsa Jerome, PhD and Rick Doblin, PhD.

February 25, 2004. CNN announces that Ecstasy is Approved for Medical Study.

Corrections and comments on the CNN announcement by Ilsa Jerome, Ph.D and Rick Doblin, Ph.D.

February 23, 2004. Ecstasy Agonistes A retracted study on a controversial substance raises questions about the reliability of government-sponsored research on drugs, By Thomas Bartlett, Chronicle of Higher Education

The Chronicle of Higher Education's February 25, 2004 colloquy live email chat with Rick Doblin is available in the Chronicle archive.

January 26, 2004. NIDA responds to MAPS' FOIA request for documents about Dr. Ricaurte's MDMA research.
We received three documents:

NIDA's cover letter,
Ricaurte's July 15, 2003 Progress Report to NIDA
Ricaurte's October 10, 2003 letter to NIDA
Read comments on these documents by Rick Doblin.
January 16, 2004. Rick Doblin has written a paper discussing how the risks of MDMA neurotoxicity have been exaggerated by government officials and government-funded scientists in a manner that has been used to support prohibitionist policies.

December 10, 2003. A Bad Batch, by Rebecca Alvania. Baltimore City Paper (Issue #50,12/10-12/16). This is yet another long, powerful article about the flawed MDMA neurotoxicity research of Drs. Ricaurte and McCann. The article is sprinkled with excellent quotes from Rick Doblin and Dr. Charles Grob.

December 5 2003. Newsweek Online publishes an interview with psychiatrist Julie Holland on the psychotherapeutic use of MDMA.:

December 3, 2003. THE AGONY OF ECSTASY RESEARCH:
Science Gets Recruited in the Drug War, by Ronald Bailey. Reason Magazine Online.

December 2, 2003. Research on Ecstasy Is Clouded by Errors - The New York Times, by Donald G. McNeil Jr.

Rick Doblin, President of MAPS, published these comments on the NYT article.

The Drug Policy Alliance have issued this related press release today.

Mark Kleiman's weblog, "An Ouchie for George"

November 28, 2003. The politics of rEsearch by Harry Shapiro, is published in the Nov/Dec issue of the British magazine, Druglink.
This article reports that Ricaurte's mislabeling error "came to light when a student attempted to replicate the study and then made an official complaint when permission to publish the new findings was denied." In order to verify if this was accurate, Rick Doblin called the Johns Hopkins press office and was informed that Dr. Ricaurte says that there is no substance whatsoever to this allegation.

November 26, 2003. MAPS sent a letter today to NIDA Director Nora Volkow, Ph.D., responding to a November 18, 2003 letter from Dr. Volkow to Rick Doblin. This exchange of letters was part of a package of material that MAPS sent today to members of NIDA's National Advisory Council on Drug Abuse (NACDA) requesting that NACDA recommend to NIDA that it release information about the MDMA research of Dr. Ricaurte.

Dr. Volkow indicated in her thoughtful but careful letter that she didn't think it was necessary for NIDA to proactively release the information about the MDMA research of Dr. Ricaurte that MAPS requested and noted that MAPS will obtain some information as a result of its Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. In reply, Rick Doblin noted that, " NIDA should be forthcoming with the information requested. To do otherwise leaves the impression that NIDA is not actively and aggressively trying to clear up this disturbing episode that has damaged the credibility of NIDA's educational efforts regarding the risks of MDMA and other illegal drugs."

November 21, 2003. Editorial published in Movement Disorders by Stephen Kish, Ph.D., [PDF format] "What is the Evidence that Ecstasy (MDMA) Can Cause Parkinson's Disease?" This strong editorial examines the evidence that ecstasy can cause Parkinson's and suggests that the evidence is very weak. It also critiques the flawed McCann/Ricaurte PET evidence that MDMA causes substantial reductions in serotonin transporter.
Read commentary on this editorial here.

November 18, 2003. Letter from Dr. Volkow to Rick Doblin.

November 10, 2003. RTI denies it made mistake that torpedoed results of a $1.3M study. Triangle Business Journal, by Leo John.

October 20, 2003. MAPS sends a letter to all members of the National Institute on Drug Abuse's National Advisory Council on Drug Abuse, requesting that it recommend that NIDA release all the information about Dr. Ricaurte's research that MAPS has requested in its Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. (also in Word format)

October 18, 2003. When to retract?
Reserve retraction for fraud and major error - Richard Smith, Editor BMJ 2003;327:883-884

October 14, 2003. Concern over research reawakens ecstasy neurotoxicity debate, Kelly Morris, Lancet: Neurology Vol 2, November 2003 (also in pdf)

October 9, 2003. Nature publishes a short news story (PDF and HTML) on the MAPS sponsored MDMA/PTSD study. Nature 425, 552 (09 October 2003)
MAPS has a few comments on the article.

October 8, 2003. Could MDMA help people with Parkinson's disease ? A recently published study in marmosets suggests that MDMA can reduce side effects of some medications used in the treatment of PD.

October 2, 2003. MAPS Responds to Ricaurte et al.'s retraction letter.
MAPS addresses the evidence that Ricaurte et al. cite in their retraction letter in which they fail to give up the ghost and make a feeble attempt to claim that MDMA could, after all, actually cause dopaminergic neurotoxicity and Parkinson's Disease.

October 1, 2003. MAPS Submits FOIA Request to NIDA. MAPS receives a confirmation letter from NIDA's Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) staff that it has received our request for specific information about the studies that Drs. Ricaurte et al. conducted with genuine MDMA that failed to find dopaminergic neurotoxicity, and about the studies that were conducted with the mislabeled bottles of MDMA and methamphetamine. The letter seems to indicate that there is a good chance that NIDA will release most or all of the information we requested, but that remains to be seen.

September 30, 2003. False Drug Information Harms Kids Marsha Rosenbaum, Research Scientist, Seattle Post Intelligencer, Op-Ed

September 26, 2003. Independent Inquiry Demanded Into Ecstasy Study Debacle, Drug Policy Alliance News

September 23, 2003. MAPS obtains approval for its MDMA/PTSD study from the Institutional Review Board (IRB) reviewing the protocol.

September 19, 2003. Ecstasy scandal grows as second study retracted DRC-Net Drug War Chronicle

September 18, 2003. Independent inquiry demanded into Ecstasy affair - Robert Walgate, The Scientist

MAPS letter to NIDA Director Nora Volkow
MAPS sends a letter to NIDA Director Nora Volkow noting the many unanswered questions in the Ricaurte et al. retraction and requesting the release of additional information. MAPS states that the credibility of NIDA is at stake. These sentiments are also expressed in a powerful editorial just released by the scientific journal, Nature.

"Ecstasy's After Effects" Editorial, Nature

MAPS correction to the Nature Editorial

September 17, 2003. Additional drug research affected by drug mix-up - Robert Walgate, The Scientist

September 16, 2003. Retracted Ecstasy paper an "outrageous scandal" - Robert Walgate, The Scientist

E-fer Madness - Larry Smith, Salon

September 15, 2003. It'll kill you -- wait, no it won't - Jon Carroll, San Francisco Chronicle

September 13, 2003. Ecstasy study is erroneous - El Mundo (pdf format)

Science forced to retract article on Ecstasy - British Medical Journal, Stephen Pincock (also available in pdf format)

September 12, 2003. "Scientists retract second drug study; Mislabeled vial used again in new Ecstasy research at Johns Hopkins lab" - Jonathan Bor, Baltimore Sun
This article was also reprinted by the LA Times on Sept. 15, 2003.

Letter to the Editor: Retraction - "Severe dopaminergic neurotoxicity in primates after a common recreational dose regimen of MDMA ('ecstasy')" - George A. Ricaurte, et al., Science (PDF version)

"Paper on Toxic Party Drug Is Pulled Over Vial Mix-Up" - Constance Holden, Science (PDF version)

Oops ! -- 'Killer Ecstasy' study retracted, NIDA credibility on the line, RAVE Act Still Law - DRC-NET

September 11, 2003. "Agony for researchers as mix-up forces retraction of ecstasy study" - Jonathan Knight, Nature (also in PDF format)

"Your Brain on Bad Science: Leading Ecstasy researcher retracts critical study" - Judith Lewis, L.A. Weekly

Study of ecstasy dangers used wrong drug El Correo (pdf format)

September 9, 2003. "Researchers Retract Study on Ecstasy Brain Damage" - NPR's "All Things Considered"
Listen to it | Read the transcript

"Congress Passed Ecstasy Law on Flawed Science/Johns Hopkins Researchers Admit Dramatic Error in Study" - Drug Policy Alliance Press Release

"MDMA Toxicity and Scientific Integrity" - Mark Kleiman, Ph.D., http://markarkleiman.blogspot.com

September 8, 2003. "'Killer' Ecstasy claim was false" - BBC News Online

Transcript: "World News Tonight with Peter Jennings" (6:30 pm ET) - ABC

Alex Gamma confronts Ricaurte in Basel at his public retraction - Alex Gamma

Controversial Ecstasy research used wrong drug - News Service, New Scientist

September 7, 2003. DrugSense FOCUS Alert: Bad Science Drives Drug War Hysteria

"Scientists admit: we were wrong about 'E'" - Jo Rivell, The Observer
also published in the Guardian on Sept 6th

September 6, 2003. "Results Retracted On Ecstasy Study" - Rick Weiss, Washington Post

"Report of Ecstasy Drug's Great Risks Is Retracted" - Donald G. McNeil, Jr., New York Times

"Ecstasy Study Botched, Retracted" - Kristen Philipkoski, WiredNews.com

"Researchers retract study tying Ecstasy to Parkinson's" - Frank D. Roylance and Dennis O'Brien, Baltimore Sun

"Drug Labeling Error Forces Scientific Journal to Publish Retraction" - Randolph E. Schmid, AP Wire Service *
"Scientists Retract Story on Ecstasy Brain Damage" - Reuters News Service *

(* - these articles were written without any input from MAPS)

September 5, 2003. George Ricaurte, Ph.D.'s September 5, 2003 retraction - published in Science - of "Severe dopaminergic neurotoxicity in primates after a common recreational dose regimen of methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA)"

Here is a comprehensive list of newspapers that have covered the Ricaurte retraction story

August 1, 2003. MAPS replies to Dr. Ricaurte and Science, arguing once again that a correction needed to be made to Dr. Ricaurte's letter of June 6, 2003.

July 31, 2003. The letters editor at Science forwards a feeble reply from Dr. Ricaurte to our questions about misleading statements in his June 6, 2003, letter to Science.

June 19, 2003. Drs. Mithoefer, Jerome and Doblin have written a reply to the Ricaurte et al. letter (PDF format) published in Science on June 6, 2003. We have submitted our reply to Drs. Ricaurte and McCann and indicated that we would be happy to post their response to the MAPS website if they want to continue this debate.

June 6, 2003. Science, Vol. 300, p. 1503-4. Mithoefer, Jerome, Doblin letter and response by Ricaurte, Yuan, Hatzidimitrioli, Cord, McCann.

COMMENT: The letter from Ricaurte et al. understates by 100% the mortality rate of their primates administered their sequential dosing regimen of MDMA as reported in their paper. One out of 10 are reported to have died in the letter but 2 out of 10 were reported to have died in the paper. While Ricaurte et al. are among the main proponents of the argument that even one dose of MDMA carries substantial risks and that MDMA use can significantly impair memory, it seems that they are showing symptoms of this deficit in that they seem to have forgotten that just 8 1/2 months ago, they clearly reported in their paper that two animals died. Fortunately, we did not forget.
On June 9, 2003, I brought this to the attention of the letters editor for Science and requested a correction be printed in a subsequent issue. The letters editor said that such a correction did seem required by the obvious difference between the higher mortality rate reported in the paper and the surprisingly lower mortality rate that was reported in the letter. What I suspect happened is that Ricaurte et al. treated more animals than they reported on in their paper, so that they perhaps did have a group of 10 animals out of which only one died. If that is the case, that still doesn't mean that they can just ignore the other monkey they inadvertently killed prematurely.

Ricaurte et al. stated in the letter that "one of ten monkeys that we treated with our sequential dosing regimen of MDMA that we used died of complications of severe hyperthermia." Yet their paper reports two deaths related to hyperthermia in the ten monkeys treated. They first reported data from five squirrel monkeys, noting "the fifth [squirrel] monkey developed malignant hyperthermia and died within hours of receiving the last dose of MDMA." Later on, they reported data from five baboons, writing "Again, one of five animals [baboon] died, this time shortly after receiving only two doses of MDMA. Malignant hyperthermia (up to 41.6 C) was again an important factor."

This is an important issue since the mortality rate can be used to help evaluate whether the dose Ricaurte et al. administered to their primates actually is a "common" human dose, as they alleged in the title of their paper. Furthermore, the paper reports that another two primates showed symptoms of behavioral toxicity after just two of the three injections and weren't administered the third injection, data not mentioned in the letter. They reported that "One [squirrel] monkey became less mobile and had unstable, tentative gait after the second dose, and therefore was not given the third planned dose." They also reported that "A second baboon appeared unstable after the second dose of MDMA, and therefore received only two of the three planned doses."

MDMA neurotoxicity is a controversial issue. The credibility of Science and of the Ricaurte et al. team is at stake when the number of animals they say died from the doses of MDMA administered declines over time.

October 8, 2002. MAPS' reply to the paper published in Science by George Ricaurte, et. al "Severe Dopaminergic Neurotoxicity in Primates After a Common Recreational Dose Regimen of MDMA ('Ecstasy')"

Media Reports

September 30, 2002. "On Ecstasy, Consensus Is Elusive" — Rick Weiss, Washington Post

September 27, 2002. "Study in Primates Shows Brain Damage From Doses of Ecstasy" — Donald G. McNeil, Jr., New York Times

September 26, 2002. "Ecstasy users 'risk Parkinson's disease'" — David Concar, New Scientist

September 26, 2002. "Study: Ecstasy Doses Can Hurt Brain" — Paul Recer, Associated Press

September 26, 2002. MAPS Press Release — "Scientists Sharply Criticize Conclusions of New MDMA (Ecstasy) Report"

Edited by kilgoretrout, 24 June 2009 - 03:33 PM.

[mdma]

Wow, well there you go.

Could not find these, but i knew they were several studies going against the mdma-is-destroying-your-brain studies.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Edited by mdma, 24 June 2009 - 04:05 PM.

[technique]

I had the luxury to get the purest stuff in powder form,

dont want to be a wise ass, but pure mdma is crystals, not powder

[kilgoretrout]

I had the luxury to get the purest stuff in powder form,

dont want to be a wise ass, but pure mdma is crystals, not powder

Unless someone has ground the pure crystals into pure powder to facilitate easier measuring or pressing into pill form.

Wiseass.

Edited by kilgoretrout, 24 June 2009 - 09:57 PM.

[wild2side]

I used to take MDMA recreationally back in the day (oh about 7 years ago)... biggest mistake.

Dont be fooled mate... there will always be ppl claiming mdma is no more dangerous than alcohol or cigarettes. Though it may not give you cancer or liver damage as much as the latter, it will definitely give you brain damage 1000x faster. No matter how warm and lovey it makes you feel now, it's not worth it when down the line you cant remember the simplest of shit or when your feeling depressed for no reason at all.

Just smoke some weed and enjoy life ...

[kilgoretrout]

I used to take MDMA recreationally back in the day (oh about 7 years ago)... biggest mistake.

Dont be fooled mate... there will always be ppl claiming mdma is no more dangerous than alcohol or cigarettes. Though it may not give you cancer or liver damage as much as the latter, it will definitely give you brain damage 1000x faster. No matter how warm and lovey it makes you feel now, it's not worth it when down the line you cant remember the simplest of shit or when your feeling depressed for no reason at all.

Just smoke some weed and enjoy life ...

Did you only use it a few times a year (once to 3 or 4 times)? Did you do research and take antioxidants to protect against oxidative damage, and neurotransmitter-restoring amino acids? Did you only use MDMA that had been tested with a test kit to see what was in it and that others you knew were well aquatinted with it had tried and verified was pure?

Or did you gobble whatever pills the dealer at the bar CLAIMED were "X" once or twice a week for months at a time?

And while I love weed, if I use more than a tiny amount of it once every couple weeks, I start forgetting everything and getting depressed.

My guess would be (1) you used mdma (or whatever it was.. probably often contained lots of speed?) way to often, (2) probably redosed once or twice throughout the night which is known to increase bad side-effects (3) never took any protective measures, (4) never made sure someone who had some of the batch being used actually ran it through a test kit to see what you were really using.

[synaesthetic]

I'd recommend not taking MDMA. Wait until a new safer compound comes out!

In the mean while, if you must roll, taking tianeptine at the end of the MDMA session will be beneficial for your brain.

Edited by synaesthetic, 25 June 2009 - 05:08 AM.

[mdma]

I used to take MDMA recreationally back in the day (oh about 7 years ago)... biggest mistake.

Dont be fooled mate... there will always be ppl claiming mdma is no more dangerous than alcohol or cigarettes. Though it may not give you cancer or liver damage as much as the latter, it will definitely give you brain damage 1000x faster. No matter how warm and lovey it makes you feel now, it's not worth it when down the line you cant remember the simplest of shit or when your feeling depressed for no reason at all.

Just smoke some weed and enjoy life ...

yeah right, dont take mdma but smoke weed instead...ever tought that your memory issue and the state of depression you are describing could be linked with your marijuana use?

PS: And for obvious reason, i would buy a tesk kit before even buying the X.

Edited by mdma, 25 June 2009 - 01:15 PM.

[bgwithadd]

A couple bad studies doesn't mean anything. MDMA is pretty much the lynchpin of your brain and using it can have extreme effects. It has the most receptors in your brain and this erroneously makes internet twits think that makes it safe. The problen is that it has very very low natural levels and they they come into play it has a profound effect. Any ethylamines will have a profound effect and will dramatically increase dopamine transpoint. When this happens you get a huge wave of euphoria but it's basically your braincells being worked to death til they literally explode in pleasure. At high enough doses serotonergic damage begins and that has serious issues. Tha said I still take adderall at low doses, but you are raking your brain in your own hands if you take mdma.



AT low doses deprenyl might help with neurotoxicity, but at MAO-B inhibition level it will cause problems.