Why are immortalists mostly men?, originally asked by Mind Rating Options

[Bruce Klein]

Discussion carried over from topic "Jace Unveiled"(full member access only, or also found here for basic members)



by Mind

Why are immortalists mostly men? The ones here anyway. I don't want to be sexist, but is it because there is a lot of science involved in our discussions? Too much logic? Women of ImmInst, feel free to pummel me for those questions, but I am just searching for an answer. The Jace persona, was very interesting to me mostly because of the gender. I found it refreshing that a woman was so involved in the forums.

--Mind

[Bruce Klein]

I've found Evolutionary Psychology to be the most satisfying answer in that it explains fundamentally the differences between men and women.

[advancedatheist]

Women have traditionally defined themselves in terms of their role in baby making, which is necessary to keep the human species in business as long as we remain vulnerable to senescence, fatal diseases and death by misadventure.

All this talk of "immortality" implies that we wouldn't need to make babies at anything near the rate we have required historically. That prospect immediately throws into question the value of being female, as I've noticed from my association with cryonicists. While a few traditional families with children have signed up for cryonic suspension, childfree men seem to predominate. Gay men, who don't value women even for sex, much less baby making, seem over-represented. Of the relatively few women who have signed up, childfree ones seem over-represented. (In fact I know of one who had her tubes tied in her early 20's because she knew back then that she had no interest in having children.)

Moreover, men tend to define themselves in terms of their values, personal philosophies, skills and knowledge, which you can take with you wherever you go, even if you jump into the future via cryotransport. Women, by contrast, tend to define themselves in terms of their relationships, which bind them in space and time. Cognitive goods as a source of personal definition lend themselves more readily to thoughts of really long lifespans than transitory emotional arrangements.

[DJS]

My girl friend says the quest for immortality is all about power and that men are more likely to be drawn to concepts of power. I don't neccesarily agree because I see so many members on this forum with the purest of hearts, much purer than mine I might add. [sfty]

I'm not familiar with the arguments regarding EP, but I will make it a point to better familiarize myself with them. My initial response to this would be that women are more "caught up" in the reproductive process than men. They have a very strong biological imperative to reproduce, much stronger than men, and as such they are inclined to support the "natural order of things".

I hope I am not coming off as a sexiest.

[Bruce Klein]

Don, I think your on the right track in your thinking. EP give solid clues as to "why" women are more "caught up" in the reproductive process.

Please know also, that I've created this poll as a way to help us understand how women can become more involved with ImmInst and what they want.

Brainstorming, what can we do to involve more women?



IF - Infinite Females

Thus Far, IF seems to have had a good start with monthly chats on the last Sunday of each month. Susan has enjoyed connecting with a number of other female immortalist.

I'm wondering if there are other software solutions which may help to bring us and more women together. Perhaps something with a more visual edge. Natasha Vita-More's TAC as an example/model:



Transhumanist Arts & Culture
Transhumanist Arts was introduced as an "art theory" in 1982. The "Transhumanist Arts Statement" establishes a poetic doctrine of transhumanist expression.

By 1990 Transhumanist Arts had become an arts period reflecting the timeframe of transhumanity—the global transhumanist culture. By the late 1990s, Transhumanist Arts was recognized as an art period and an organization for artistic and innovative thinkers worldwide.

[Cyto]

I think Evo. Psych. of the maternal/paternal figures to nurture a future "want" to reproduce (ie: giving girls toy babies) also plays a good part.

[chestnut]

Chat Topic: Why are immortalists mostly men?
Chat Time: Sunday Feb 29 @ 6 PM EST
More Info: http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=...ST&f=141&t=3079

[sfbihope]

As one of the mysterious "females" myself...

I think it has more to do with the idea that through thier children women are immortal, or at least they feel that way. Also there is more acceptance of the "natural" cycles life death etc. There is something to do power in that also. I for one am very power-hungry you might say. Also socially women are forced into roles that do not provide an incentive for living long (that makes it sound like all women are suicidal but that's not what I mean). However, some are able to break free of society.

[chestnut]

For me it is simply not as easy to have discussions via a computer. I much prefer face-to-face interaction. I enjoy the contact and thrive on personal-social interaction. EP would say this is the result of how the role of women evolved to shape what i find enjoyable today.

[Anne]

I have no idea why there aren't more female immortalists. I'm female, and I can't fathom why there aren't more females in my field (engineering) or in science in general. Sure there are some social pressures and traditions that might be offputting to *some* women, but truly I've never understood the apparent majority of my own gender. I don't believe that having children would satisfy my desire for immortality -- after all, my consciousness will not be carried by them. Someone could keep my DNA in a sealed test tube for years, after all, yet that would not be the same as extending my lifespan as a person. Plus, there's no guarantee that one's children are going to have children.

-anne

[gustavo]

surely there is some truth in most of the postings on this page
- many women have traditionally defined themselves in terms of their role in baby making, which would be superfluous in a world of immortals
- many women look for immortality through having children
- many women define themselves in terms of their relationships, which bind them in space and time.
- the quest for immortality is all about power and that men are more likely to be drawn to concepts of power.
- many women are inclined to support the "natural order of things" (which they probably feel in their bodies - repeating itself in 28 day cycles - a reminder of time, natural order, and ultimately death).

However the idea that all these traits belong to women in some fundamental, unchanging or essential way is wrong.

Believing that one can understand differences between men and women by means of some scientific study or philosophical speculation, that one can understand how women or men essentially are, is a hopeless entrerpise.

And the danger of sexism is there all the time: once you say that women are "naturally" this way because of evolution, then women who are interested in science, power, immortality, AI or whatever (rather than children) appear as "not femenine".

Niestzche, a famous misogynous, once said something like "when a woman has intellectual interests, then something is wrong with her sexuality" (I'm quoting by heart, i think the quote is in "beyond good and evil").

I believe we should not underestimate the extent to which women and men are this way because of social ideology. From the day we are born, men are trained to be competitive, ambitious, self-assertive. Women are trained to be sensitive, caring, etc. All the time, through family members, school mates, role models, mass media, etc., this stereotypes are reinforced and interiorized by children. If your personality doesn't match the stereotype, you are harshly punished by society.

So, yes: there is sexism in saying that women are not interested in immortality because of "natural reasons".

That is, at best, only a minor part of the explanation. The main part of the explanation lies on social representations of how women or men are supposed to be.

If you then use science (or perhaps pseudo-science) to "confirm" such social expectations, you create rigid stereotypes of men and women, you reinforce the cycle of prejudice – and you are a sexist.

My wife didn’t want to have children, I did. My wife is not interested in immortality, she is only interested in pleasure here and know, in living a good life; I am desperately interested in immortality. My wife is doing a Ph. D. in clinical psychology, I’m a stay-at-home dad. We do fit part of the stereotype – but not all of it! I guess the same is true of almost everybody here. And when one starts to try to understand how one became this way, the reasons are always distinctive, unique – we are how we are because of our personal histories, not because of some rules of evolutionary psychology. We are semiotic beings, culturally and symbolically mediated beings (Lacan, Heidegger, Foucault, etc.)

BJK: to think that evolutionary psychology can explain the differences between men and women, that's itself a typical form of male reasoning!

gustavo

[chubtoad]

I chose other. I think it is a mix of #2 and #3. I see many women (I think) in online forums; there is just a lack of them here.

[David]

I think the statistics I saw last time on internet usage were pretty clear that men use it far more than women currently. Pretty simple really! Besides, who knows what sex people here are? Really?

Dave

[chubtoad]

Internet usage is much higher with men, but I was comparing the amount of women on this forum to those on others. For example on techtv forums about 1/25 people are women. Here it seems more like 1/80. Also, I think the people that don't show their real sex on the forums are a huge minority.

[DJS]

So, yes: there is sexism in saying that women are not interested in immortality because of "natural reasons".

That is, at best, only a minor part of the explanation. The main part of the explanation lies on social representations of how women or men are supposed to be.

If you then use science (or perhaps pseudo-science) to "confirm" such social expectations, you create rigid stereotypes of men and women, you reinforce the cycle of prejudice – and you are a sexist.

This reminds me of a conversation I had a few weeks ago where I was told that Herrnstein and Murray (The Bell Curve) were racists. I fundamentally disagree with this contention, as well as the allegations of sexism which have been leveled here on this thread. There can be no doubt that memetics play a pivotal role in determining both behavior and preference, but this does not mean that scientists who arrive at different conclusions should be BRANDED. In fact, I would contend that there is a substantial interconnection between memetics and evolutionary psychology, to such an extent that it would be premature to make conclusions one way or the other.

From my perspective this is nothing more than political correctness and a first step towards social engineering. It is not the ideas (or the scientists who espouse them) which we should be afraid of but the intent of their usage. This course of action would accomplish nothing except to sacrifice the pursuit of truth for the temporary feeling of moral righteousness.

Dissent within the scientific community should never be stifled unless it is unscientific. Can you prove that the whole field of evolutionary psychology is unscientific? After you hurl out allegations of “pseudo science” you should be prepared to back them up.

[Bruce Klein]

gustavo: to think that evolutionary psychology can explain the differences between men and women, that's itself a typical form of male reasoning!

Yikes, so it is... help me, i'm oozing with testosterone!

[Kalepha]

There seems to be many sensible hypotheses, none of which are easily refutable. I would have to say that the sheer act of discussing immortality is an aristocratic-type luxury few people have, fewer so with females. Everyone is busy, and if the average person asked him- or herself what they can do about physical immortality today, the answer is not readily available.

Pressures of natural selection still abound even though we’re able to identify social roles for deeming them right or wrong in academia. The men undoubtedly work very hard at their careers and even toward their hobbies. But the women have a deeper desire for a pristine environment, which means that most spare time is focused on the household and philanthropic endeavors that are more direct and less abstract.

Immortalism is extremely abstract philanthropy—the key reason for great disparity.

[Saille Willow]

I chose other. I think that really the question is why there are not more women represented on this site. Immortalists only form a very small proportion of the general population. Between those there seem to be a division between scientifically based and metaphysically based opinions. There are of course those with open minds, who keep a balance between the two. Most women I have come across with immortalist inclinations, are metaphysically based. So the question could be asked why are women more inclined towards metaphysics than men.

[dfowler]

I chose other I think the power of immortalism intimidates and scares women away. Plus it is a movement which goes against societal norms something unfortunately more taboo in the female community than in the male simply because women have been chastised in the past for not conforming to the way society would like them to be.

Don't forget women haven't been afforded all the rights that men traditionaly have had , why not ask why aren't their more black immortalists? Unfortunately this is a white dominated elite that are afforded more freedoms than other minorities are.

Men have traditionaly been the status quo breakers in the sense of the adventurer and conquerer women have rarely been allowed to be put in that role. Also as Gustavo said women are brought up and conditioned by society to become more domesticated which is something that will hopefully change in the near future.

[chubtoad]

On a whole immortalists (in the physical sense) tend to be less religious. Men also tend to be less religious (here is a poll http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNew....oll020301.html).

[Googlebot]

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