17 replies to this topic

[tlm884]

For the past few months I have noticed that after taking a stimulant I usually am plagued with an overwhelming sense of drowsiness. I have taken bacopa, nicotine, modafinil, caffeine to name a few and noticed that they usually make me extremely tired. I am just wondering what this is caused by and what I can do to recieve the benefits of stimulants. I am assuming the reason I feel fatigued is a lack of dopamine?

[Pike]

wait, do you get drowsy ON the stimulant, or are you saying that you get drowsy once the stimulant has worn off?

[tlm884]

wait, do you get drowsy ON the stimulant, or are you saying that you get drowsy once the stimulant has worn off?

On the stimulant.

[Peregrine777]

wait, do you get drowsy ON the stimulant, or are you saying that you get drowsy once the stimulant has worn off?

On the stimulant.

Drowsiness while ON stimulants is supposed to be indicative of ADHD brain chemistry. It's a paradoxical response.

[tlm884]

wait, do you get drowsy ON the stimulant, or are you saying that you get drowsy once the stimulant has worn off?

On the stimulant.

Drowsiness while ON stimulants is supposed to be indicative of ADHD brain chemistry. It's a paradoxical response.

If the treatment for ADHD is stimulants how does that accomplish anything?

I havent been formally diagnosed with ADHD but my psychiatrist has recognized that I have focus/concentration issues and I was on buproprion for a while. However, I was taken off of it for the summer and will be put back on it possibly in September after I give modafinil a trial first.

Would taking Tyrosine help with the drowsiness?

[Pike]

Drowsiness while ON stimulants is supposed to be indicative of ADHD brain chemistry. It's a paradoxical response.

haha, you beat me to it.
the "stimulant-blues" is one of the big markers for ADHD in some, and up to this point, haven't heard of it being a symptom of anything else.

[tlm884]

Drowsiness while ON stimulants is supposed to be indicative of ADHD brain chemistry. It's a paradoxical response.

haha, you beat me to it.
the "stimulant-blues" is one of the big markers for ADHD in some, and up to this point, haven't heard of it being a symptom of anything else.

So what supplements would you reccomend for ADHD?

[brain]

Drowsiness while ON stimulants is supposed to be indicative of ADHD brain chemistry. It's a paradoxical response.

haha, you beat me to it.
the "stimulant-blues" is one of the big markers for ADHD in some, and up to this point, haven't heard of it being a symptom of anything else.

this is kind of true, but the stimulant blues aren't necessarily indicative of adhd, i don't think. the adhd/stimulant paradox is that the stimulants make adhd patients less hyperactive, less impatient, more focused, etc. this doesn't mean they make you sleepy, and it's not uncommon for adhd folks to have even more trouble with insomnia after starting a course of stimulants. the paradox is that adhd brains are under-stimulated to begin with, which causes the appearance of over-stimulation. stimulating them via amphetamines/coffee/nicotine/whatever to a higher level shouldn't make you sleepy, it should still give you more energy. it's just that the manifestation of this energy from the stimulants is existent within an appearance of outer calmness.

i kind of remember from your other posts, tlm884, that you might also be taking some other medications? what are they? they might account for what you're seeing here.

btw, from what i'm aware of caffeine, it doesn't have this paradoxical effect that other adhd drugs do. it still causes a "sped up" feeling in these people.

i'm not sure, but i think there may be something else going on here than the old adhd stimulant paradox.

[brain]

wait, do you get drowsy ON the stimulant, or are you saying that you get drowsy once the stimulant has worn off?

On the stimulant.

Drowsiness while ON stimulants is supposed to be indicative of ADHD brain chemistry. It's a paradoxical response.

If the treatment for ADHD is stimulants how does that accomplish anything?

I havent been formally diagnosed with ADHD but my psychiatrist has recognized that I have focus/concentration issues and I was on buproprion for a while. However, I was taken off of it for the summer and will be put back on it possibly in September after I give modafinil a trial first.

Would taking Tyrosine help with the drowsiness?

would you say that the drowsiness has a depressive element to it?

[tlm884]

wait, do you get drowsy ON the stimulant, or are you saying that you get drowsy once the stimulant has worn off?

On the stimulant.

Drowsiness while ON stimulants is supposed to be indicative of ADHD brain chemistry. It's a paradoxical response.

If the treatment for ADHD is stimulants how does that accomplish anything?

I havent been formally diagnosed with ADHD but my psychiatrist has recognized that I have focus/concentration issues and I was on buproprion for a while. However, I was taken off of it for the summer and will be put back on it possibly in September after I give modafinil a trial first.

Would taking Tyrosine help with the drowsiness?

would you say that the drowsiness has a depressive element to it?

I am currently on cipralex, propranolol, and diovan. However, The propranolol is a recent edition and I have expierenced the drowsiness before the addition of the beta blocker. I do not believe there is a depressive component to the drowsiness.

[Peregrine777]

Drowsiness while ON stimulants is supposed to be indicative of ADHD brain chemistry. It's a paradoxical response.

haha, you beat me to it.
the "stimulant-blues" is one of the big markers for ADHD in some, and up to this point, haven't heard of it being a symptom of anything else.

this is kind of true, but the stimulant blues aren't necessarily indicative of adhd, i don't think. the adhd/stimulant paradox is that the stimulants make adhd patients less hyperactive, less impatient, more focused, etc. this doesn't mean they make you sleepy, and it's not uncommon for adhd folks to have even more trouble with insomnia after starting a course of stimulants. the paradox is that adhd brains are under-stimulated to begin with, which causes the appearance of over-stimulation. stimulating them via amphetamines/coffee/nicotine/whatever to a higher level shouldn't make you sleepy, it should still give you more energy. it's just that the manifestation of this energy from the stimulants is existent within an appearance of outer calmness.

i kind of remember from your other posts, tlm884, that you might also be taking some other medications? what are they? they might account for what you're seeing here.

btw, from what i'm aware of caffeine, it doesn't have this paradoxical effect that other adhd drugs do. it still causes a "sped up" feeling in these people.

i'm not sure, but i think there may be something else going on here than the old adhd stimulant paradox.

This is true, and I myself have occasionaly experienced sleepiness from stimulants like cocaine.

I'm not ADHD.

There must be something about dopamine (relaxation of smooth muscle) that causes it.

I know caffeine and cocaine make me take a shit.

What is the cause?

[tlm884]

Drowsiness while ON stimulants is supposed to be indicative of ADHD brain chemistry. It's a paradoxical response.

haha, you beat me to it.
the "stimulant-blues" is one of the big markers for ADHD in some, and up to this point, haven't heard of it being a symptom of anything else.

this is kind of true, but the stimulant blues aren't necessarily indicative of adhd, i don't think. the adhd/stimulant paradox is that the stimulants make adhd patients less hyperactive, less impatient, more focused, etc. this doesn't mean they make you sleepy, and it's not uncommon for adhd folks to have even more trouble with insomnia after starting a course of stimulants. the paradox is that adhd brains are under-stimulated to begin with, which causes the appearance of over-stimulation. stimulating them via amphetamines/coffee/nicotine/whatever to a higher level shouldn't make you sleepy, it should still give you more energy. it's just that the manifestation of this energy from the stimulants is existent within an appearance of outer calmness.

i kind of remember from your other posts, tlm884, that you might also be taking some other medications? what are they? they might account for what you're seeing here.

btw, from what i'm aware of caffeine, it doesn't have this paradoxical effect that other adhd drugs do. it still causes a "sped up" feeling in these people.

i'm not sure, but i think there may be something else going on here than the old adhd stimulant paradox.

This is true, and I myself have occasionaly experienced sleepiness from stimulants like cocaine.

I'm not ADHD.

There must be something about dopamine (relaxation of smooth muscle) that causes it.

I know caffeine and cocaine make me take a shit.

What is the cause?

Bump

[rwac]

Have you tried using a choline source ?

Caffeine used to make me shaky, but then cdp-choline helped a lot.

[tlm884]

Have you tried using a choline source ?

Caffeine used to make me shaky, but then cdp-choline helped a lot.

The only choline source I have tried was lecithin. However, that is a poor source at best. So it would be better saying no I havent tried choline. What is the basis of choline in this situation?

[rwac]

The only choline source I have tried was lecithin. However, that is a poor source at best. So it would be better saying no I havent tried choline. What is the basis of choline in this situation?

It's a hunch, but the idea is that somehow you're not making sufficient AcetylCholine, but the stimulant increases uptake, so you're getting sleepy.
If you want to give this theory a try, maybe get some Alpha-GPC or CDP-choline.

The other possibility is simply inflammation (allergies or infection or ... ?).
Do you take Magnesium ?

Edited by rwac, 20 August 2009 - 04:38 AM.

[tlm884]

The only choline source I have tried was lecithin. However, that is a poor source at best. So it would be better saying no I havent tried choline. What is the basis of choline in this situation?

It's a hunch, but the idea is that somehow you're not making sufficient AcetylCholine, but the stimulant increases uptake, so you're getting sleepy.
If you want to give this theory a try, maybe get some Alpha-GPC or CDP-choline.

The other possibility is simply inflammation (allergies or infection or ... ?).
Do you take Magnesium ?

Inflamation could be a good possibility. Could explain the fatigue/ADHD like brain fog I have been experiencing. Possibly EBV?

I take magnesium on an irregular basis. Pretty much when I remember its sitting there or I need a little help sleeping I take about 500mg of mixed magnsesium salts by Jamison. I am not sure how bio available it is. It contains oxide and a few other forms.

If it is inflamation could it be treated with Omega 3s and some herbal anti inflamitories such as ginger or boswellia.

[rwac]

Inflamation could be a good possibility. Could explain the fatigue/ADHD like brain fog I have been experiencing. Possibly EBV?

I take magnesium on an irregular basis. Pretty much when I remember its sitting there or I need a little help sleeping I take about 500mg of mixed magnsesium salts by Jamison. I am not sure how bio available it is. It contains oxide and a few other forms.

If it is inflamation could it be treated with Omega 3s and some herbal anti inflamitories such as ginger or boswellia.

Hmmm, "Brain fog" is almost by definition some sort of choline deficiency. That's one thing thats definitely worth checking out.

EBV, Lyme, ... etc.

Absorption of Oxide is pretty bad. You should get a more bioavailable form of Magnesium. Say Malate, or chelate, and try to take it every night.

What's the rest of your stack like ?

I have no experience with Boswellia, sorry.

Edited by rwac, 20 August 2009 - 02:52 PM.

[frederickson]

extreme drowsiness from stimulants is not, in and of itself, an indicator of adhd. perhaps a calm focus, but not the overwhelming fatigue the poster is talking about. other than the fact that people with adhd would be more likely to take stimulants, there is no causal relationship between adhd and this kind of reaction.

i suffered the same paradoxical reaction to stimulants during a period of extreme stress. after years of no problems, taking caffeine, adderall, ephedrine, etc. would cause me to become so tired right after administration that i would have to take a nap.

it was suggested by some colleagues that this overwhelming fatigue was simply "glutamatergic overload" as a result of too much stress. during the period i was having this problem, the combination of phd qualifying exams + family illness + dog dying + not sleeping + stimulant (a very powerful stressor) overwhelmed me and produced an incapicatating need to shut the system down (i.e. sleep).

i stayed away from stimulants for a few months, the multiple stressors subsided (r.i.p. jack), and i can now take stimulants again without the paradoxical fatigue.

Edited by frederickson, 10 October 2009 - 04:24 AM.