27 replies to this topic

[Wandering Jew]

This is a completely hypothetical question. The hypotheical situation is inspired by an old news story, and the fact that I have a few enemies (over money and stuff, of course I'm in the right and they're in the wrong) who may wish to do me harm. I doubt anyone'd attempt murder or robbery.

I read in a news story that a Johns Hopkins medical student battled thief/robber to his garage, using a samurai sword, and ended up killing the would-be intruder (unknown guy to the med student).

The med student faced charges. I didn't read the follow up stories since didn't find it in the archive, but heard from new story comments that the killer "would-be-doc" ended up spending 3 years in jail. my question is: Would you ever kill to defend something/someone?

If it's me, I'd hate to face lawsuits, I'd aim to kill and not aim-to-disable. If I aim-to-maim intruder, I may get sued by the bad-guy. If I kill, I may get sued by bad-guy's fam, AND I may get jailed like that Hopkins student.

So if I kill a complete unknown, perfect crime, (very little window and any neighboring house dozens of yards away), should I dispose of the body myself to avoid the troubles and penalities?


What if I own lots of sulfuric acids, etc, and chop to chunks, and can dispose of bodies better than the TV-show Bay Harbor Butcher Dexter Morgan? what should I do? turn myself in or dispose body? Let's hear what the smart people hear may suggest to protect their lives, haha

Edited by Wandering Jew, 16 September 2009 - 08:01 PM.

[Wandering Jew]

Sorry for the long post. For the best case of survival and legal defenses, it boils down to this: should one aim-to-kill or aim-to-maim?

If I face the evil music and I aim-to-kill insteading of aim-to-harm the perp, with no link of me to "disappearing" of the perp, should I destroy body or turn myself in?

[rwac]

You should live in a state which has the castle doctrine. Then there's nothing to worry about reporting it.

http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

Edited by rwac, 17 September 2009 - 03:24 AM.

[castrensis]

You should respond with a level of force appropriate to the situation & as permitted by law. I would imagine that most burglars could be frightened off with a few shots fired over their head, however if they responded with potentially deadly force you should respond with the same - and hopefully beat them to the punch, as it were - in the interest of preserving the viability of your organism. Although I live in a state with a Castle Law I probably wouldn't make someone "leak like a watering can" unless a verbal warning & warning shots were ineffective. In all cases of imminent danger to your life you shouldn't waste time trying to maim your attacker (you're more likely to miss if you're shooting for an arm or a leg) aim for the main body mass & let them reap the consequences of their actions.

[Wandering Jew]

You should respond with a level of force appropriate to the situation & as permitted by law. I would imagine that most burglars could be frightened off with a few shots fired over their head, however if they responded with potentially deadly force you should respond with the same - and hopefully beat them to the punch, as it were - in the interest of preserving the viability of your organism. Although I live in a state with a Castle Law I probably wouldn't make someone "leak like a watering can" unless a verbal warning & warning shots were ineffective. In all cases of imminent danger to your life you shouldn't waste time trying to maim your attacker (you're more likely to miss if you're shooting for an arm or a leg) aim for the main body mass & let them reap the consequences of their actions.

good answer. Obviously, I hate to forever take away a human life, unless my life or loved ones' lives are in danger. I also hate vindictive criminals to exact revenge on me, my house/properties etc if they got off on a warning shot or verbal threats.

That Johns Hopkins student killed the intruder (career criminal that had 30 previous arrests) just a couple of days ago, and the intruder's family is pressing charges, which would ruin the student (John Pontecillo?) that may be a doctor someday. The dead guy's sister said over-defense, unnecessary force and self-defense etc. I sympathesize the kid a bit, since the criminal might have tried again and again, bringing even more property and personal harm


If I'm in that shoe, I'd of course call police and then fight the criminal myself. Before criminal is released from prison again, then I try to move away, if he's the vindictive type or repeats the target choice. If an unknown guy and I'm certain of no linkage, I'd be forced with the "perfect murder" since most wouldn't find a scumbag, kinda like Jack the Ripper killed the prostitutes, never caught. That's worst-case type.

Edited by Wandering Jew, 17 September 2009 - 05:50 AM.

[forever freedom]

If I face the evil music and I aim-to-kill insteading of aim-to-harm the perp, with no link of me to "disappearing" of the perp, should I destroy body or turn myself in?

IMO, depends on the circumstance. If the intruder attempted to harm you then shooting to kill was justified and you could report to the police. Even if the intruder didn't really attempt to harm you, but just wanted to steal something, you could still kill him and tell the police he attacked (or was trying to attack) you when he saw you. So i think reporting to the police is wiser either way.

[KalaBeth]

should one aim-to-kill or aim-to-maim

The doctrinal answer to that question (at least according to everyone I've met in the law enforcement and defensive fields) is "neither.. you aim to stop the threat." That said, with present technology the most reliable, expedient means to stop an active threat means (ideally) disrupting the CNS, or (secondarily) the heart/lung area so as to disrupt blood flow to the brain. In other words "shoot (or stab in this case I guess) for the center of mass."

This is generally lethal. Whether that's an unfortunate after effect or a Darwinian side benefit is a matter of debate.

with no link of me to "disappearing" of the perp, should I destroy body or turn myself in?

Generally speaking, there are few better ways to look like a criminal than to act like one.

That answer does presuppose of course that you live in area where self-defense is not in itself regarded as a criminal act.



Finally... if this is an active concern for you, seek out an instructor who can give you the best legal and practical information for your situation. In most of the US, a concealed carry class is I think a great route for this whether you intend to carry a weapon or not - you'll get a good overview of the relevant laws of your state, and likely meet a lot of people with more specialized knowledge you can ask most anything. It's the better place to ask the kinds of questions you're asking I think.

[Wandering Jew]

Aim-2-Kill makes me sound like a murderer. I shall always say to the Law: I aimed to stop! Stopped loss of my stuff and my life!



with no link of me to "disappearance" of the perp, should I destroy body or turn myself in?

[/quote]
Generally speaking, there are few better ways to look like a criminal than to act like one.

That answer does presuppose of course that you live in area where self-defense is not in itself regarded as a criminal act.


[/quote]


Yeah depends on the circumstance. Most crimes are not perfect b/c most criminals are sorta dumb. If I can assume it's safe to dispose of the matter for all with my IQ, I'd maybe do it. Then again, many cops are as smart or may be smarter than me, then your "there are few better ways to look like a criminal than to act like one" puts me to a "Destruction of Evidence" crime though I live in a US state with Castle Law

[kismet]

What has this to do with immortality? Whatever you do it's pretty irrelevant - if you get caught you go to jail, otherwise not. Just make sure you do not live in any of those damn barbaric countries still employing the death sentence.

[Wandering Jew]

What has this to do with immortality?

Has a lot to do with immortality. If the intruder gets startled finding I'm home, and he gets mad and evil (taking both my properties and my life), a confrontation results. Fight the intruder to the death, or get police? Cops will arrive at my house in minutes when milli-seconds count. Cops are not dependable. I have choices to make:

Choice one: In order to make this one battle to end all future battles, should I fight intruder to the death, hitting him in all lethal body-parts

Two: To avoid law-suits and future agony, and assume it can be done, should I do the best to erase evidence like it never happened.

I don't want to live immortality in jail and with lawsuits suing me wounding bad-guy in my house

Edited by Wandering Jew, 18 September 2009 - 09:31 PM.

[Reno]

When one person kills another they are taking all that person has, and all he will ever have. Being immortal doesn't change that.

You should live in a state which has the castle doctrine. Then there's nothing to worry about reporting it.

http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

Yup, I live in Texas. We may have problems, but this is not one of them.

Edited by bobscrachy, 19 September 2009 - 02:05 AM.

[Wandering Jew]

Yup, I live in Texas. We may have problems, but this is not one of them.

good for you, at least Texas is one of the enlightened states to Castle Doctrine

[Wandering Jew]

Other advice for self defense if I have known enemy(ies)?

[cyborgdreamer]

I say aim to disable; a criminal is still a human being. Of course, the best solution is to avoid the situation all together. I reccomend getting a good security system, locking your windows and doors at night, and (if its legal in your area) keeping some pepper spray on hand.

[rwac]

I say aim to disable; a criminal is still a human being.

Legally that's a bad idea. If an intruder scares you enough, you aim to stop him. (center mass)

Plus, you'd be more likely to miss if you're not aiming for center mass.

Also, you'd be more likely to be sued.

That's just the way it is.

[cyborgdreamer]

I say aim to disable; a criminal is still a human being.

Legally that's a bad idea. If an intruder scares you enough, you aim to stop him. (center mass)

Plus, you'd be more likely to miss if you're not aiming for center mass.

The center of mass is around the stomach, right? Could a person survive a shot to the stomach if you called for an ambulance right away?

Also, you'd be more likely to be sued.

That's just the way it is.

Seriously? That's messed up!

[rwac]

The center of mass is around the stomach, right? Could a person survive a shot to the stomach if you called for an ambulance right away?

You seriously overestimate the stopping power of a bullet.
If somebody coming at you high on adrenaline, he can ignore a stomach wound, pretty much.
Even if you shoot him in the heart, he can probably keep going for atleast a few (5-10?) seconds ...

Shooting a leg or arm, might make more sense, but they're much smaller targets.

Also, you'd be more likely to be sued.
That's just the way it is.

Seriously? That's messed up!

I agree, it's unfortunate.

[Wandering Jew]

cyborgd you say "The center of mass is around the stomach, right? Could a person survive a shot to the stomach if you called for an ambulance right away?"
You're technically right. It's near the stomach. I'd go for the chest in a male though, since it has bigger surface area.



Yeah it's messed up, but there's some evilness in some people's nature. It's human nature. Kinda like a heart of darkness. I hate confrontations of this type, so I'll take your idea of pepper spray, and maybe consider building a panic room to hide and have police take on intruders to my property. To prevent frivolous lawsuits and revenge from the bad-guys would be another matter. I don't think anyone in a polite society would have many enemies who would just kill (except if terrorists doing the killing)... if I face one and deep down just know it's his life or mine, then I kill him first, if comes to that

Edited by Wandering Jew, 21 September 2009 - 02:28 AM.

[Wandering Jew]

You seriously overestimate the stopping power of a bullet.
If somebody coming at you high on adrenaline, he can ignore a stomach wound, pretty much.
Even if you shoot him in the heart, he can probably keep going for atleast a few (5-10?) seconds ...

Shooting a leg or arm, might make more sense, but they're much smaller targets.

If it's not a powerful gun, stopping power won't be much. The intruder would be in Fight/Flight mode. If runs away, then he can either seek revenge later or forget to do evil things to people. If he fights on, then home-owner has the advantage to finish one off.

THis is the politics and law sub-forum, what to deal with the law would be a bigger problem.

[Wandering Jew]

an interesting morality probelm: Does anything ever justify the killing of a person?

I personally have honor and some morals, but the intruders may not. The potential perps have morals of a goat. If anything ever comes to that, I would look out for number one, for my life.

[castrensis]

The center of mass is around the stomach, right? Could a person survive a shot to the stomach if you called for an ambulance right away?

You seriously overestimate the stopping power of a bullet.
If somebody coming at you high on adrenaline, he can ignore a stomach wound, pretty much.
Even if you shoot him in the heart, he can probably keep going for atleast a few (5-10?) seconds ...

Stopping power is dependent on the gun. A .22 or 9mm probably won't stop someone who really wants to kill you but could certainly mortally wound them, in contrast the .45 has a knockback factor that'll blow over most men.

One of the first rules my father taught me was "Never point a gun at someone unless you intend to kill them." This is a safety rule, a way to program a conditioned response when life is threatened & a reminder of what kind of power you wield with a firearm. If you shoot someone your intention should be to kill them & you should be prepared for that eventuality.

If you're uncomfortable with killing someone then less-lethal options may be an option, but won't terminate a threat as effectively.

Edited by castrensis, 24 September 2009 - 12:12 AM.

[Wandering Jew]

The center of mass is around the stomach, right? Could a person survive a shot to the stomach if you called for an ambulance right away?

You seriously overestimate the stopping power of a bullet.
If somebody coming at you high on adrenaline, he can ignore a stomach wound, pretty much.
Even if you shoot him in the heart, he can probably keep going for atleast a few (5-10?) seconds ...

One of the first rules my father taught me was "Never point a gun at someone unless you intend to kill them." This is a safety rule, a way to program a conditioned response when life is threatened & a reminder of what kind of power you wield with a firearm. If you shoot someone your intention should be to kill them & you should be prepared for that eventuality.

yeah, when you point a gun, you trigger the live target's native programmed response. The intruder would then act instinctively on high adrenaline, a dangerous situation since it will briefly give the intruder seemingly superhuman powers to fight or flight, so hide weapon until intended to shoot-to-kill as final option

[rephore]

What about using a Taser? Or have they invented sleep darts?

[forever freedom]

What about using a Taser? Or have they invented sleep darts?

I'm not sure but i think sleep darts would take too long to have an effect on the criminal considering every second is precious in these cases. A taser is a good idea, if it's the new one that has three shots. I'd still prefer to shotgun the head out of the intruder, though.

[Wandering Jew]

What about using a Taser? Or have they invented sleep darts?

I'm not sure but i think sleep darts would take too long to have an effect on the criminal considering every second is precious in these cases. A taser is a good idea, if it's the new one that has three shots. I'd still prefer to shotgun the head out of the intruder, though.

If I own a shotgun, that would be my first choice. Blast in the upper body or head. Every case is different, if intruder is a 'humble' cowardly type that's been driven to steal and rob out of necessity, then I'd just scare him away, but if he has the look that gives me chills which would mean repeat offender or take revenge on my precious life, I try to kill first. How he takes revenge? Maybe place bomb inside mailbox and openning lid is the trigger. Maybe send me bombs. Maybe robs again or violate my house. If no-kill, Who knows what he'll do to me when he's out of jail again???!

Where do I get tasers lol. It's more silent and not as deadly as shotgunning the intruder down. I suggest place a weapon within reach whenever you sleep. It can save your life!

Edited by Wandering Jew, 25 September 2009 - 06:53 PM.

[Wandering Jew]

you say
"I'm not sure but i think sleep darts would take too long to have an effect on the criminal considering every second is precious in these cases. A taser is a good idea, if it's the new one that has three shots. I'd still prefer to shotgun the head out of the intruder, though."

good idea

If I own a shotgun, that would be my first choice. Blast in the upper body or head. Every case is different, if intruder is a 'humble' cowardly type that's been driven to steal and rob out of necessity, then I'd just scare him away, but if he has the look that gives me chills which would mean repeat offender or take revenge on my precious life, I try to kill first. How he takes revenge? Maybe place bomb inside mailbox and openning lid is the trigger. Maybe send me bombs. Maybe robs again or violate my house. If no-kill, Who knows what he'll do to me when he's out of jail again???!

Where do I get tasers? It's more silent and not as deadly as shotgunning the intruder down. If I use simply a knife for defense and then destroy intruder body, avoid revenge, avoid headache, keep anonymous,

I suggest" : place a weapon within reach whenever you sleep. It can save your life!

Edited by Wandering Jew, 25 September 2009 - 06:58 PM.

[forever freedom]

Yeah, nothing like the stopping power of a shotgun in short range. It's likely to stop the criminal if it hits any area of the body (other than the extremities of the arms maybe).

[rephore]

I'd still prefer to shotgun the head out of the intruder, though.

Shotgun the head out of the intruder. lol. classic. decapitated by shotgun blast.

Edited by rephore, 28 September 2009 - 08:23 AM.