71 replies to this topic

[hamishm00]

Interesting suggestions Pike.

On the noots side, just adding to what Pike said I also think there is definitely scope to replace the Choline (like Bitartrate etc) you see in standard multis with CDP Choline, and also maybe instead of ALCAR or L-Carnitine we could take a punt on Acetyl L Carnitine Arginate (i.e. as brokenportal said to "set this mix apart and give it a reason").

Ach boosters + acetylcholinesterase inhibitors together in the same formulation could potentially be controversial.

[brokenportal]

Pike, right, exactly, we would want to stick with the most uncontroversial of the noots, and this is just for a proposal. We can work in the most acceptable workable ones and then go over it before the final cuts. Maybe we would find that it would just be a bad idea to include any kind of noot, but then maybe something can be worked in.

I know that some people say that there is too much dispute over how much resveratrol is good, so if a lot of people think that a high dose of resveratrol is good, but the liability is still too questionable then it seems like we could keep negotiating the amount down until we find something that is acceptable. Again, this would just be for a proposal and would also be subject to discussion and final cuts.

[Anthony_Loera]

Lets work on the multi for now, as most people voted for it.

At a later time, we can revisit this to include other things.

A

[Mind]

I agree. Let us start with an "improved" basic formula/multi. If it is successful - people actually buy it - then we can move on to more specialized formulations.

[scottl]

ajnast4r,

Everything old is new again eh?

I discussed this with ajnast4r ages ago but gave up when I found out what minimum quantities of the multi I would have to have made. Hope you folks have better luck.

PS ajnast4r hope all is well.

Edited by scottl, 29 October 2009 - 10:46 PM.

[maxwatt]

I like the way the project is heading. It looks very close to what I've been trying to find for my own use.

[Pike]

it just occurred to me that separating the water-solubles with the fat solubles would probably be crucial to gaining the support of skeptical life-extenionists and to avoid the scrutiny of nay-sayers who would look for a reason to argue against supplementation. that, combined with the fact that certain vitamin analogues (like gamma tocopherol, benfotiamine, p-5-p, etc) which may be more expensive than others to incorporate into the supplement, certain people might be put off if they feel that their vitamins are not being absorbed as well as they should be or are being made ineffective by the composition.

[neogenic]

I think if you want to do the best forms and the best doses, being that I formulate supplements for a living, you'd be surprised how quickly your dream product becomes impossible.

Everyone is going at this backwards. You need to agree on the cost, not necessarily MSRP (you can work backwards from that), but what would you spend? And what exactly the product is that your spending it on (e.g. no nootropics, separate fat soluble multi, etc.).

Then from there, I usually slip a better higher end formula by creating flexible dosing...allowing the product to be sold to more people and be profitable, but allowing those that truly appreciate the complexity, the forms, the amounts, etc. to dose higher. This has been a successful formula for me.

Methylcobalamin for example is around $3500 a kilo. And if you guys want to use patented forms, things get more costly, as most here like the cadillac versions, so to speak. Metafolin is pretty much your only chance of 5-MTHF and they're extremely hard to work with and get put in.

Just some thoughts.

[wootwoot]

What is the ETA for this to be ready?

[Mind]

Looks like January. The last small details are being ironed out and now the holidays are upon us, so this will delay things just a bit.

[renwosing]

What's the update on this?

Amount per bottle? Price?

[Mind]

Thanks for asking renwosing. The formulation is done. We are working with a manufacturer right now to determine packaging, labeling, and price.

[renwosing]

Can't wait. Keep me posted where its available.

[Chaos Theory]

Thanks for asking renwosing. The formulation is done. We are working with a manufacturer right now to determine packaging, labeling, and price.

Is the formulation being kept a secret for patent reasons or to keep preemptive complaining to a minimum?

There seems to be quite a bit of interest in what the final draft looks like.

[niner]

Thanks for asking renwosing. The formulation is done. We are working with a manufacturer right now to determine packaging, labeling, and price.

Is the formulation being kept a secret for patent reasons or to keep preemptive complaining to a minimum?

There seems to be quite a bit of interest in what the final draft looks like.

It's not being kept secret as far as I know. It isn't entirely finalized in that manufacturing problems or compound incompatibilities may require some changes in the formulation.

[Chaos Theory]

It's not being kept secret as far as I know. It isn't entirely finalized in that manufacturing problems or compound incompatibilities may require some changes in the formulation.

I understand that but at the same time there isn't even a rough final draft available yet, and in addition every single thread in the "amounts" subforum gets closed/moved/deleted.

[niner]

It's not being kept secret as far as I know. It isn't entirely finalized in that manufacturing problems or compound incompatibilities may require some changes in the formulation.

I understand that but at the same time there isn't even a rough final draft available yet, and in addition every single thread in the "amounts" subforum gets closed/moved/deleted.

Yeah, sorry, I see what you're saying. We haven't been very good about publicizing it. I don't think anyone was trying to be secret, but no one took the time to post it.

I copied this out of the working document, but it is not final and is subject to change. I think it's safe to say, however, that this is fairly close to a final formulation. Sorry about the horrid formatting; the forum software doesn't handle tables very conveniently.

Vitamin A
3000 RAE Mixed Carotenoids
150 mcg Retinol
b1 1.2mg thiamine mononitrate
b2 1.3mg riboflavin
b3 16mg nicotinic acid
b5 5 mg ca pantothenate
b6 1.3mg p hydrochloride
folate 100mcg methyltetrahydrofolate
b12 24mcg *
biotin 45mcg biotin
vitamin C 90mg ascorbic acid
vitamin D 1100iu cholecalciferol
vitamin E
30iu A-tocopherol
1.5mg B-tocopherol
125mg G-tocopherol
42mg D-tocopherol
10 mg mixed tocotrienols
vitamin K
45 mcg k2 mk-7
120 mcg k1
boron 3 mg as glycinate
chromium 100 mcg as niacinate
copper 500 mcg as glycinate
iodine 150 mcg potassium iodide
magnesium 200 mg glycinate
selenium 55mcg methylselenocysteine
silicon 10 mg sodium metasilicate
zinc 11mg glycinate
choline 550mg bitartrate
lutein 10 mg esters
lycopene 10mg
lithium 1mg

[MachineGhostX]

Assuming the RDA, I can't see much to this formula that gives a competitive advantage in the current marketplace. The only thing of note is the mixed A's, E's and K's. Other than folate/B12, the rest of the B's are poorly bioavailable, synthetic junk. The minerals aren't Albion chelates, wheres the missing trace minerals such as molybdenum and vanadium, and the magnesium is wasting space (nor is the RDA). The lycopene and lutein is wasting space also and are they branded ingredients or cheap Chinese crap?

Boy, I'm disappointed. It's just seems to be so hard for anyone to formulate a bare basic multi-vitamin and trace minerals that isn't made out of crap ingredients, at least until this past year. If you need inspiration, then improve upon New Chapter's food-based Daily One or Garden of Life's food-based RAW One and junk all of the fairy dusting so the very few ingredients that aren't at 100% RDA can become thus.

Sorry to be so harsh, but I'm calling it as I see it.

MG

Edited by Machine_Ghost, 05 February 2010 - 11:05 PM.

[Chaos Theory]

Thanks for posting that, niner. I'm actually glad to see the B-Vitamins have such low dosages. That definitely sets this multi apart from everything else on the market.

Being able to drop additional choline supplementation is also a bonus.

The only ingredient that really surprised me was the lithium. I've taken Li-orotate before and it made me feel dulled down at 3-5mg (elemental Li) per day. I'm hoping this is low enough for me to not experience that effect.

I also see letting the list out has predictably elicited some anonymous criticism.

Edited by Chaos Theory, 06 February 2010 - 12:39 AM.

[RighteousReason]

Vitamin A
3000 RAE Mixed Carotenoids
150 mcg Retinol
b1 1.2mg thiamine mononitrate
b2 1.3mg riboflavin
b3 16mg nicotinic acid
b5 5 mg ca pantothenate
b6 1.3mg p hydrochloride
folate 100mcg methyltetrahydrofolate
b12 24mcg *
biotin 45mcg biotin
vitamin C 90mg ascorbic acid
vitamin D 1100iu cholecalciferol
vitamin E
30iu A-tocopherol
1.5mg B-tocopherol
125mg G-tocopherol
42mg D-tocopherol
10 mg mixed tocotrienols
vitamin K
45 mcg k2 mk-7
120 mcg k1
boron 3 mg as glycinate
chromium 100 mcg as niacinate
copper 500 mcg as glycinate
iodine 150 mcg potassium iodide
magnesium 200 mg glycinate
selenium 55mcg methylselenocysteine
silicon 10 mg sodium metasilicate
zinc 11mg glycinate
choline 550mg bitartrate
lutein 10 mg esters
lycopene 10mg
lithium 1mg

Interesting..

Where the heck did lithium come from? That isn't listed anywhere in the community supplement design forums.

Edited by RighteousReason, 27 February 2010 - 03:46 PM.

[Mia K.]

It's not being kept secret as far as I know. It isn't entirely finalized in that manufacturing problems or compound incompatibilities may require some changes in the formulation.

I understand that but at the same time there isn't even a rough final draft available yet, and in addition every single thread in the "amounts" subforum gets closed/moved/deleted.

Yeah, sorry, I see what you're saying. We haven't been very good about publicizing it. I don't think anyone was trying to be secret, but no one took the time to post it.

I copied this out of the working document, but it is not final and is subject to change. I think it's safe to say, however, that this is fairly close to a final formulation. Sorry about the horrid formatting; the forum software doesn't handle tables very conveniently.

Vitamin A
3000 RAE Mixed Carotenoids
150 mcg Retinol
b1 1.2mg thiamine mononitrate
b2 1.3mg riboflavin
b3 16mg nicotinic acid
b5 5 mg ca pantothenate
b6 1.3mg p hydrochloride
folate 100mcg methyltetrahydrofolate
b12 24mcg *
biotin 45mcg biotin
vitamin C 90mg ascorbic acid
vitamin D 1100iu cholecalciferol
vitamin E
30iu A-tocopherol
1.5mg B-tocopherol
125mg G-tocopherol
42mg D-tocopherol
10 mg mixed tocotrienols
vitamin K
45 mcg k2 mk-7
120 mcg k1
boron 3 mg as glycinate
chromium 100 mcg as niacinate
copper 500 mcg as glycinate
iodine 150 mcg potassium iodide
magnesium 200 mg glycinate
selenium 55mcg methylselenocysteine
silicon 10 mg sodium metasilicate
zinc 11mg glycinate
choline 550mg bitartrate
lutein 10 mg esters
lycopene 10mg
lithium 1mg

Any idea(s) when this will come to market? 

Thanks, Mia

[Mind]

We are discussing the different delivery technology available - how to package things in order to make it the most bio-available - and checking the cost of various ingredients. Lithium is the last ingredient being debated.

It could be a month or two yet before it is available for sale, hopefully sooner.

[Mia K.]

It could be a month or two yet before it is available for sale, hopefully sooner.

Very good; thanks for the prompt reply.  I hope "sooner," too.     

Regards, Mia

[ajnast4r]

any questions on lithium can be answered by reading this: http://www.jacn.org/...nt/full/21/1/14
there is an established intake and suggested rda for lithium

Assuming the RDA, I can't see much to this formula that gives a competitive advantage in the current marketplace. The only thing of note is the mixed A's, E's and K's. Other than folate/B12, the rest of the B's are poorly bioavailable, synthetic junk. The minerals aren't Albion chelates, wheres the missing trace minerals such as molybdenum and vanadium, and the magnesium is wasting space (nor is the RDA). The lycopene and lutein is wasting space also and are they branded ingredients or cheap Chinese crap?

Boy, I'm disappointed.

synthetic B's are nearly completely bioavailable, usually much higher than from food. we are using albion chelates in most cases, molybdenum is included just not listed, vanadium is not essential, and magnesium is far from wasting space. lycopene and lutein have, moreso than most other supplement, clear and established benefits. branded doesnt mean better... forms, delivery mechanisms, etc are more important than brand names. we are taking the necessary steps to ensure that every ingredient is scrutinized down to the nitty gritty.

[DukeNukem]

How many capsules is this expected to be? My guess is that it'll need 2.

Overall, as a super basic vitamin/mineral formula, it looks quite good. Most people should additionally supplement extra D3, magnesium, calcium, and C.

[RighteousReason]

any questions on lithium can be answered by reading this: http://www.jacn.org/...nt/full/21/1/14
there is an established intake and suggested rda for lithium

It's an interesting study but is not responsive to the question... seriously, can we create a sub-forum for this nutrient like all the others and have a real discussion? That one study certainly does not answer all possible questions! So much for "community design"

Edited by RighteousReason, 07 March 2010 - 04:35 PM.

[ajnast4r]

How many capsules is this expected to be? My guess is that it'll need 2.

Overall, as a super basic vitamin/mineral formula, it looks quite good. Most people should additionally supplement extra D3, magnesium, calcium, and C.

probably 6! some of the ingredients are super bulky... choline, magnesium etc.

any questions on lithium can be answered by reading this: http://www.jacn.org/...nt/full/21/1/14
there is an established intake and suggested rda for lithium

It's an interesting study but is not responsive to the question... seriously, can we create a sub-forum for this nutrient like all the others and have a real discussion? That one study certainly does not answer all possible questions! So much for "community design"

certain aspects and ingredients were decided by the 'expert panel'...

Edited by ajnast4r, 07 March 2010 - 04:58 PM.

[niner]

It could be a month or two yet before it is available for sale, hopefully sooner.

Very good; thanks for the prompt reply.  I hope "sooner," too.     

Considering the time required to source all ingredients and have the capsules filled and bottled, 2 months is extremely aggressive. In addition, we are still finalizing the design. I expect "later".

[RighteousReason]

any questions on lithium can be answered by reading this: http://www.jacn.org/...nt/full/21/1/14
there is an established intake and suggested rda for lithium

It's an interesting study but is not responsive to the question... seriously, can we create a sub-forum for this nutrient like all the others and have a real discussion? That one study certainly does not answer all possible questions! So much for "community design"

certain aspects and ingredients were decided by the 'expert panel'...

Totally non-responsive to the question. Thanks for your mindless, pointless non-response.

[nameless]

Hmm... I do wish lithium was discussed outside of the expert panel. Even though it's a small amount, certain common drugs do interact with it, such as ace inhibitors.

How safe is 2-4x RDA for lithium? Seeing as I am on an ace inhibitor, I can't say I'm fond of the decision to include it. If someone felt 'dulled down' (as posted above) at 3-5 mg, you may wish to warn people taking ace inhibitors and other drugs about the interaction, as I think ace inhibitors can cause a 2-4x increase in lithium levels.