Replacing Dexedrine with Nootropics. Can it be done? Options

[wildfun]

I'm relatively new to the world of Nootropics and I was hoping for some advice. I have been taking 25mg of Dexedrine (amphetamine) a day for the past 5-6 years. I'm prescribed this for ADHD but lately I haven't been able to stay focused or concentrate, the Dexedrine just keeps me in a anxious state. The problem is when I try to taper it off or stop taking it I'm practically in a coma. I get extremely depressed, I fall asleep just about anywhere or while doing anything, getting out of bed is a huge ordeal, and my work and school life just goes down the toilet.

From what I read about cocaine and amphetamine withdrawal after long term use, this debilitating period could last a year or more, since my dopamine must be so depleted.

I'm trying to figure out a nootropic stack that would help replenish my dopamine stores and get me through the nightmare of dexedrine withdrawal. Previously I managed to take a month long break with L-Glutamine -750mg and DL-Pheynlalanine -500mg (+Vitamin B6&C). This allowed me to decrease my tolerance to Dexedrine so I wouldn't have to increase my dose. It kept me alert and sort of helped with clarity but in a really spacey, personality-altering way. I felt like a robot. I think taking the DL-Phenylalanine instead of L-phenylalanine may have been part of the problem, but it was all I could find at the time.

I am considering some sort of stack of one or more of the following: Piracetam, DMAE, Choline, Acetyl-L-Carnitne, etc. Whatever would be most effective alone or combined. I'm open to all suggestions since I'm still in the early stages of research. I'm If anyone has any experience with discontinuing amphetamine use in exchange for nootropics, please let me know what worked and what didn't.

Other things to note:
I'm vegetarian, so I'd pay more for non-animal sources in supplements.
I'm female, short, 110lbs. (if that factors into dosing suggestions).
My budget is pretty flexible, a max would be $200 a month.
I live in Canada, so whatever can be bought / safely imported here.

If you think you have any knowledge whatsoever that could be helpful, please write! Thanks in advance.

[progressive]

To improve energy, mood, and focus I would recommend Modafinil, Carnitine, Green Tea, and Dark Chocolate (80% or higher). Those won't heavily impact dopamine, but there are few things besides prescriptions that will do that. It wouldn't hurt to continue the amino acids that are working for you. Perhaps chocolate extracts like chocamine or PEA might be the best for safely boosting your dopamine... though be sure to moderate your doses.

Piracetam, DMAE, Choline, etc will do nothing for dopamine or energy levels.

This post has been edited by progressive: Nov 1 2009, 10:26 AM

[steven d]

I'm using the supplement combination high dosage krill oil + phosphatidyl serine/ lecithin against ADD and find it much more effective then dexedrine. Perhaps you should use that instead of dexedrine. Please take a look at my thread.

http://www.imminst.org/forum/High-dosage-K...and-t34189.html

[wildfun]

To improve energy, mood, and focus I would recommend Modafinil, Carnitine, Green Tea, and Dark Chocolate (80% or higher). Those won't heavily impact dopamine, but there are few things besides prescriptions that will do that. It wouldn't hurt to continue the amino acids that are working for you. Perhaps chocolate extracts like chocamine or PEA might be the best for safely boosting your dopamine... though be sure to moderate your doses.

Piracetam, DMAE, Choline, etc will do nothing for dopamine or energy levels.

Thanks I'm looking into the things you suggested, the Dark chocolate is particularly enticing haha. I'm considering this PEA supplement from Neurvana Neurvana Mood Brightener supplement thing

It seems to have a good balance of other vitamins and amino acids as well. One thing that worries me about this product is how it says it can increase libido. I feel like my libido is through the roof lately and it's already driving me nuts. I just got dumped too so no good will come of this! I started taking 5HTP again because I get seasonal depression and it seems to really help. Could this be part of the er, problem?

While the Piracetam, DMAE and choline wont help dopamine or energy, wouldn't they be beneficial for concentration and ADHD issues at all?

[LIB]

I'm using the supplement combination high dosage krill oil + phosphatidyl serine/ lecithin against ADD and find it much more effective then dexedrine. Perhaps you should use that instead of dexedrine. Please take a look at my thread.

http://www.imminst.org/forum/High-dosage-K...and-t34189.html

I'd look into this as well. While I was never formally diagnosed with ADD or anything, and I've only taken dexedrine/adderall on a few occasions, PS + Fish oil is really helping me. I'm going to take krill soon to see if I get even more of a boost.

This post has been edited by LIB: Nov 2 2009, 01:12 AM

[wildfun]

I'm using the supplement combination high dosage krill oil + phosphatidyl serine/ lecithin against ADD and find it much more effective then dexedrine. Perhaps you should use that instead of dexedrine. Please take a look at my thread.

http://www.imminst.org/forum/High-dosage-K...and-t34189.html

This would be better for me if the krill supplements didn't pose such ethical issues for me if I were to take them them. I should get some supplemental oils, but I would prefer a plant based one. Thanks though, I did read the thread. I'm still trying to learn more about lecithin, but I'm considering it.

[Pike]

magnesium, the b-vitamins, vitamin b-6 in particular, and fish oil+vitamin e have are all supplements that are all cheap as dirt and have all shown great efficacy in treating ADHD; some performing just as well as methylphenidate. STAY AWAY from glutamine if you're taking anything dopamine acting (i.e. dexedrine, tyrosine, phenylalanine, ETC.)

magnesium is probably the cheapest of them all, get any form you want EXCEPT the magnesium-oxide for, which i guess isn't really absorbed by your body that well.

pyridoxamine used to be on the market, but it's getting scarce now. it WAS the best vitamin b-6 out there, though. p-5-p is still a really cheap form of b-6.

fish oils take a while to build up in your system. i think all of the studies show it took 6 weeks to notice an effect. it used to be thought that DHA was the more important of the omega-3s for ADHD, but as it was shown in one study, the DHA-heavy omega 3 supplements were largely ineffective for ADHD treatment, and the higher EPA ratio omega-3 supplements faired way better.

in terms of nootropics, if you're not experienced with them yet, i'd start mild. give yourself at least 2-3 weeks before introducing a new one into your supplement regimen. a lot of beginners make the mistake of taking way too many nootropics for their body to handle, and then post up here complaining about side effects. so avoid the risk and just take it slow and easy with noots.

i'd say acetyl-l-carnitine is a very good way to start out. 500mg on an empty stomach 3 times a day should be a good way to dose it out. you wont want to take more than 500mg at one time, because your body won't even absorb it. if you have the extra cash to fork out, acetyl-l-carnitine-arginate has shown some promise over it's older cousin. if you really want to get spicy, you can have a little carnitine-ensemble and throw propionyl-l-carnitine into the mix (but PLC hasn't shown any cognitive benefits so far, only cardiovascular benefits).

if you're going to go with cholines, don't use them just for the sake of taking them with a 'racetam. have experience with some of the more mild noots before you get into racetams and whatnot. if you don't mind the taste of them, choline citrate and bitartrate are cheap as hell. CDP-Choline isn't too bad, depending on where you buy it from. Alpha-GPC is a waste of money. Centrophenoxine is a choline in a class of its own. if you like DMAE, then give Centophenoxine a try, because centro is kind of like DMAE's 6'5 really buff younger cousin. if you find that you're really sensitive to supplementing cholines, well lucky you, you can save yourself a ton of money and just stick to good ol' lecithin!

i'd give piracetam a try after you've already had some experience with using nootropics and have already done like 2 weeks of solid research on it and generally know what you're getting into.

anyway, good luck! nootropics have helped me come a long way with my ADHD. hope they do for you!

[Zoroaster]

This would be better for me if the krill supplements didn't pose such ethical issues for me if I were to take them them. I should get some supplemental oils, but I would prefer a plant based one. Thanks though, I did read the thread. I'm still trying to learn more about lecithin, but I'm considering it.

There's always flax seed oil for a plant-based omega-3 option. Not as good as krill oil or fish oil but for women it actually works decently well.

[yowza]

You'd have to take mega amounts of certain precursors to even get an effect probably.

Check out http://www.chknutrition.com/. They have a telephone number listed that you can call and ask about their products. They deal specifically with "nuerotransmitter replacement therapy" so they may be somewhat helpful since they often times deal with people ordering supplements from them as an alternative to stimulants.

I for some reason don't think that there really is an alternative to dexedrine. Even if you take these supplements they're not going to really have the interfering mechanism that a medication like dexedrine would have. In other words they're not going to force dopamine to be released if a person's brain chemistry for some reason doesn't want to. Supplements may be helpful more for some people than others. The best bet is to try and find maybe if galantamine (brand name reminyl not the generic supplement stuff) works for you... This works as an agonist on nicotine receptors (one of the 2 types of acetylcholine receptors) which can release dopamine indirectly.

Other than that there's nothing really out there. Other Cholinergic inhibitors (besides galantamine) are out there; however, these don't act as agonists along nicotine receptors really and tend to inhibit acety.]lcholine too potently. Aricept has a really long half life (although at least it only selectively tends to inhibit acetylcholinesterase) and rivastigmine shouldn't be used by anyone without parkinsons (this one inhibits butycholinesterase, which is a liver enzyme and is not good).

Any other options such as Ampakines are supposed to be helpful but they're a long way from the market. They work via glutamergic pathways (via the Ampa receptor).

However, one particular drug that some people seem to have found helpful for attention issues is Cerebrolysin (this possibly could be the best bet). Not too many people know about this but this is said to have a pretty potent affect that can be felt unlike a lot of nootropics out there. Phenotropil may be another option but this is relatively expensive (although there are some people from Russia here on this thread that may be willing to cut a deal with you) and tolerance can build up pretty quickly from what I've been told. I've had the chance to try phenotropil and there is a real effect unlike the other racetams but it may die off pretty quickly.

Of course, there's also modafinil although this still has some sides similar to stimulants to some degree (even though it doesn't interfere with brain chemistry as much). It's best for maintaining a state of wakefullness and does help with attention to some degree.

This post has been edited by yowza: Nov 3 2009, 08:46 AM

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