Adderall/piracetam, Thoughts.. Rating Options

[Legal_Imbroglio]

Is there a problem with this combination? I recall reading something negative about combining the two, but I could not track the thread. Anyhow, I've taken each independently, but never together. Thoughts?

[msied]

Go for it. It's good.

[Pike]

Go for it. It's good.

you have no idea what you're talking about.


piracetam will turn the afterburners on for your NMDA receptors. amphetamine elicits glutamate release. prolonged calcium influx through NMDA recetors = NEUROTOXICITY.

if you're interested in some insane tolerance fast, then try it.

[msied]

Go for it. It's good.

you have no idea what you're talking about.


piracetam will turn the afterburners on for your NMDA receptors. amphetamine elicits glutamate release. prolonged calcium influx through NMDA recetors = NEUROTOXICITY.

if you're interested in some insane tolerance fast, then try it.

Really? I had no idea... I always thought phenylpiracetam + adderall was a pretty great team of the big tanks. But that's anecdotal only. I'll look into your extrapolation for my own sake.

[Legal_Imbroglio]

Go for it. It's good.

you have no idea what you're talking about.


piracetam will turn the afterburners on for your NMDA receptors. amphetamine elicits glutamate release. prolonged calcium influx through NMDA recetors = NEUROTOXICITY.

if you're interested in some insane tolerance fast, then try it.

I'm not to be rude... but do you have anything to back this up? What's your definition of "prolonged" and "fast?" Again, I'm not trying to be rude, but rather, find some info.

I recently bought some Piracetam and Choline... after, ummm, I used the adderall a little quicker than should. Long story short, I'll be renewing my monthly script Friday, and I did not want to mix the two without a bit of input. I'd much rather take the adderall over the Prima, but I'm always looking for an edge. major test in December.

Thanks.

[Pike]

Go for it. It's good.

you have no idea what you're talking about.


piracetam will turn the afterburners on for your NMDA receptors. amphetamine elicits glutamate release. prolonged calcium influx through NMDA recetors = NEUROTOXICITY.

if you're interested in some insane tolerance fast, then try it.

I'm not to be rude... but do you have anything to back this up? What's your definition of "prolonged" and "fast?" Again, I'm not trying to be rude, but rather, find some info.

I recently bought some Piracetam and Choline... after, ummm, I used the adderall a little quicker than should. Long story short, I'll be renewing my monthly script Friday, and I did not want to mix the two without a bit of input. I'd much rather take the adderall over the Prima, but I'm always looking for an edge. major test in December.

Thanks.

look it up yourself. or, go ahead and take the combo. see how your tolerance is after a month.

don't let the fact that i've been on prescription adderall for a while now and have also taken this combination before, resulting in my dramatic tolerance, sway your decision.

This post has been edited by Pike: Nov 12 2009, 04:47 AM

[golden1]

For me, pramiracetam makes amphetamines much stronger, aniracetam makes them a bit relaxing and more enjoyable, and piracetam seems to make them slightly stronger like it does to coffee.


also this thread has more info http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=32497

specifically this was interesting, contradicting the claim that piracetam greatly increases tolerance(I'm not saying either is correct, I wouldn't know):
"Howdy! I know this is a month late, but I have been taking a combination of piracetam, adderall and vinpocetine for the past year. The piracetam and vinpocetine really help me feel more mentally fluid when I'm on adderall. I usually take about 800mg piracetam with about 10mg of adderall. They don't really seem to multiply the effects, just make thoughts flow smoother. All I can say is just give it a try and see if you like it. "

[Pike]

vinpocetine would be another stupid idea to combine with Adderall.

it super inhibits the vesicular storage of dopamine. if you're taking adderall, less dopamine is the last thing you want and vinpo would probably counteract the effects of it. even if you tried to counterbalance it by taking some sort of MAOI, it would be useless as it wouldn't matter how much dopamine you'd have, the presynaptic vesicles just wouldn't store it.

[Legal_Imbroglio]

Pike,
Maybe you missed the *jist* of my post, or I was far from clear. But I am looking for a bit more information. I'm sure you're well qualified to give advice, but because someone says not to do it "on a message board," this is far from convincing evidence.

Particularism when your three responses include:
"you have no idea what you're talking about."
"vinpocetine would be another stupid idea to combine..."
"don't let the fact that i've been on prescription adderall for a while now and have also taken this combination before, resulting in my dramatic tolerance, sway your decision."

You make a lot of claims with implicit assumptions.... "trust me, I know what I'm talking about"

I won't. It's called anecdotal evidence.

On a side note, if I was going into the field of research, a great research question might be" "What is it about message boards that turn reasonably intelligent people into twelve year-olds?"

[Pike]

Pike,
Maybe you missed the *jist* of my post, or I was far from clear. But I am looking for a bit more information. I'm sure you're well qualified to give advice, but because someone says not to do it "on a message board," this is far from convincing evidence.

Particularism when your three responses include:
"you have no idea what you're talking about."
"vinpocetine would be another stupid idea to combine..."
"don't let the fact that i've been on prescription adderall for a while now and have also taken this combination before, resulting in my dramatic tolerance, sway your decision."

You make a lot of claims with implicit assumptions.... "trust me, I know what I'm talking about"

I won't. It's called anecdotal evidence.

On a side note, if I was going into the field of research, a great research question might be" "What is it about message boards that turn reasonably intelligent people into twelve year-olds?"

i'm not trying to pull rank here. i'm just a little tired of people asking for advice, receiving it, and then ask to be spoon-fed the explanation. i genuinely don't care whether or not you take this combination. go apeshit with it if you'd like. if you're expecting me to do the research that i've already done all over again on your behalf so that i can have a validated opinion, then you clearly show that you're not willing to take 5 minutes to actually go to pubmed and look it up yourself. if you're not even going to put in your own time to thoroughly research the nootropics that are pertinent to you (demonstrated by virtue of the fact that this thread exists) then you're probably going to hurt yourself.

and while you have no trouble challenging me and my "anecdotal evidence," i certainly don't see you questioning the anecdotal accounts from other posters. but, since you want to be spoon-fed, here's some places where you could begin that nonexistant research of yours:
- nmda & ampa receptor
- glutamate excitotoxicity
- amphetamine & glutamate release
- nmda receptor agonist & antagonist
- piracetam & nmda receptor
- vinpocetine & DOPAC
there you go.


On a side note: don't get into the field of research. you seem to lack the ability to do so on your own accord.

[medicineman]

it is unfortunate that some people want to shove their degrees down peoples throats. Considering you come from a scientific background, surely you would be more considerate if someone asks you for evidence on whatever claim you have made.... But maybe in your institute, a degree gives you the right to shove your ideas down peoples throats, thankfully, not in mine.... Id say creationists and evangelists have a field day at where you study....

Anyways:

- nmda & ampa receptor
---these are the 2 receptors which are glutamergic, as in they respond to glutamate, and in doing so, allow ions such as Calcium and Sodium through...... These 2 receptors are thought to play a very important part in Long term potentiation, whereby short term memory is consolidated into long term memory. Piracetam exerts its effect via the NMDA receptor (not by activating it, but probably by making it more responsive to glutamate....) Aniracetam works mainly via the AMPA receptors
http://www.sumanasinc.com/webcontent/anima.../receptors.html
this should give you some insight into these 2 receptor types
- glutamate excitotoxicity
glutamate toxicity is caused when glutamate causes over excitation of nmda and ampa receptors, allowing excess ions to depolarize and activate cellular cascades, which cause over excitation and neuronal damage.
- amphetamine & glutamate release
some studies show that amphetamines cause an increase in extracellular glutamate.... this can have many repercussions if your NMDA and AMPA receptors are 'primed' or locked and loaded
- nmda receptor agonist & antagonist
chemicals that activate or block activity at receptor binding site.... Ketamine is a NMDA antagonist, and so is huperzine......
- piracetam & nmda receptor
piracetam is thought basically to prime the NMDA receptor for more efficient activity or firing, which would in turn increase memory consolidation and long term potentiation... Our fellow angry poster was just worried that you are over priming your NMDA receptor which can have repercussions theoretically, id be interested in reading research which shows evidence of what our fellow poster is worried about
- vinpocetine & DOPAC
vinpocetine use has been shown to mimic reserpine, a bad ass drug.... reserpine is THE DRUG used to INDUCE depression in mice.... one study showed that enough reserpine actually caused rat mommies to abandon, and sometimes kill their newborns.... DOPAC is a metabolite of dopamine breakdown i think, and an increase levels is seen in CSF in both vinpo and reserpine usage....

[Legal_Imbroglio]

Pull rank? Are you serious? Wait, do you think you're something special because you have a degree in science (assuming the other guy is correct)? Wow, welcome to 60% of society…

Anyhow, It's unfortunate that you "feel" compelled to answer everything you read; even though, your reading comprehension is obviously piss poor. While I'm far from possessing a medical background, I do recall something about NPD or was it god complex?!?! Funny considering the theme of this site. Regardless, I can, now, certainly understand why you've sought "mental supplements."

"if you're expecting me to do the research that i've already done all over again on your behalf so that i can have a validated opinion, then you clearly show that you're not willing to take 5 minutes to actually go to pubmed and look it up yourself."

I should offer you a quick lesson in logical reasoning since you clearly cannot grasp a few simple concepts like: false dichotomies, ad hominem, and reductio absurdum fallacies (among the several others you've made.) But, hey, we're not here to stroke each others fragile egos, right?

"and while you have no trouble challenging me and my "anecdotal evidence…"

Could you point to where I challenged your "anecdotal evidence"? What's that? Oh yea, I see, now. .... you cannot because it does not exist. If you're threatened by my asking for evidence to back up your claims, why did you post it in the first place? Seriously, are you threatened by me simply asking for the info that led to your conclusions?

if you're not even going to put in your own time …. [as] demonstrated by virtue of the fact that this thread exists…."
And why again does this forum exist?

"On a side note: don't get into the field of research. you seem to lack the ability to do so on your own accord."

Never-mind…. I'm done. I've had more intelligent conversations with my 9 year-old. Battle on message board warrior!

To anyone else: What's up with this guy? Is this the MO around here?

pike's prepubescent rant

[Legal_Imbroglio]

Thanks MDman. It's a great starting point for me!

[Pike]

wow. alright, so you come on to the boards, and you ask a question about a potentially and most likely hazardous combination of nootropics. msied tells you to go ahead and take it, it's a splendid idea. reply he doesn't know what he's talking about, because if he did, then he'd understand the serious implications the combination has. nothing about it suggests "trust me because i know what i'm talking about," nor is it an attempt to make some sort of character attack against him. it's just a really simple way to say "BAD idea" after someone shouted "GOOD idea."

you tell me to go and fetch you some info to support why i say "bad idea" and disregard asking why it would be a good idea. I give you a straight answer: look it up yourself. I already gave you the mechanism that you'd have to look up anyway in my first post. again, nothing about the rest of my second post is aimed at.. implying "trust me because i know what i'm talking about." all it says is that i've been prescribed these for a while now, so i'm certainly not pulling advice out of my ass. i'm not telling you to trust me on blind faith. i'm telling you to look it up.

next, someone posts up something of the same nature, with vinpocetine added in the mix. even searching up the word "vinpocetine" in the search bar, you can find the notorious "vinpocetine - ditch it" thread on the first page of results, spelling out why, in detail, vinpocetine is the devil for dopamine. Even the wikipedia article cites the study that shows vinpo's similarity to resperine. i called it a stupid combo because vinpo is one of the most commonly used nootropics and if one even glanced over the cited wiki page, one would see how it would interact with adderall. i even give a quick explanation as to just how vinpocetine tinkers with dopamine, which is more than enough to go on google and verify it. once again, NOTHING about this implies "hey, trust me blindly everyone." it's just me pointing out that, in addition to the neurotoxicity you'd get from the combination you'd proposed, your pretty much render any beneficial effect of Adderall useless; leaving you with no gain and marginal gain and amplified side effects. again, i don't see you asking for studies to support their concomitant use.

then you blow up and throw an argument at me which (and i'm sure you like to hear it) i really don't understand, in that my input of "bad idea" is unconvincing... compared to the equally unsupported "good idea, let's take it" notion? then, you basically accuse me as if i was trying to call out or flaunt rank on you [which is completely fucking moronic because there are people who have been here way longer than me] by my implicit "trust me, i know what i'm talking about" message, like i was telling everyone to trust me blindly.

despite your ridiculous accusation, i simply say that's just not the case. i give you a reason as to why i said "look it up." in the time it took you to bitch at me, you could have found all of the information you needed. instead, you're telling me to back-up my opinion, as if what i said holds no ground [keeping in mind that you made this thread asking for the forum's thoughts on the topic] and to fetch you some studies. under most circumstances, yeah, i'd have no problem posting a study. but, if you genuinely don't roughly know the mechanism by which piracetam produces its nootropic effects, then you're taking the supplement blindly. Piracetam is a drug and to take it without understanding even how it effects your brain is simply irresponsible and is likely to lead to some major adverse side effects. in your particular case, the combination you're suggesting will probably leave you with a lot of glutamate excitotoxic damage.

medicine man, although i'm not sure where he pulls my "medical background" from, gives you a big handout and explains for you everything you should have looked up. medicineman, you must be mistaking me with someone else. i'm in cog-neurosci, and don't have a "medical background." the part that's missing in medicineman's post is the part about piracetam where, in addition "priming" the nmda receptors, it will enhance their density and massively kick up additional NMDA receptor binding sites. you've essentially made a mile-long bullseye mark for your excitotoxic glutamate. plus, the magnesium depletion you'd get with amphetamines would only make the calcium influx worse. again, despite medicineman's post being the one that has the most information out of this thread, i don't see you asking him to cite any studies so that he can back up what he said.

finally you have a fit and despite me telling you that your accusation is bogus [again making no fucking sense, as there are plenty of people who have been here longer than i], you insist on pressing the matter. again, nothing about my responses involve me trying to show off or any of the other stupid accusations you came up with for me.
pal, look at your third post, you know, right after you point fingers and accuse me of implicitly suggesting "trust me, i know what i'm talking about." that one. It's the part where you call my "bad idea" input anecdotal evidence. if you wanted to shut me up, then do a little research. asking for studies is one thing if you have at least a general understanding about what you're taking, but asking for studies about just their general mechanism of action is another. you DO understand that it's irresponsible to take a drug without knowing what it does to you, right?


pal, i'm not sure what it is you're trying to prove to me. sorry if my reading comprehension isn't quite up to par compared to you. either way, i don't care if you believe me when i say your combo is a bad idea. if you want to take your neurotoxic cocktail, then be my guest. hell, if i'm so full of it, let your 9-year old try it too because my message-board-"don't-do-it" certainly holds no weight. just understand the kinds of "claims" that you're asking me to back up are basic mechanism-of-action details that you should be aware of before you even put these substances in your body.

[medicineman]

Sorry if i came off as aggressive..... I just dislike seeing threads go into shite like this..... Sure the evidence is there, and if a fellow poster asks for help, i think it is a duty of anyone who knows something to help, and once the evidence or the information is out there, it is up to the poster to decide..... The poster asked for backup on information without any signs of aggression, and you might have perceived it as being aggressive in a way..... How about we just squash this, and any posts following this should probably contribute to the OP... thanks and my apologies once again


just a question while we are at it..... might ritalin do something similar in terms of increasing levels of glutamate????

This post has been edited by medicineman: Nov 13 2009, 08:53 AM

[Jacovis]

...piracetam will turn the afterburners on for your NMDA receptors. amphetamine elicits glutamate release. prolonged calcium influx through NMDA recetors = NEUROTOXICITY.

if you're interested in some insane tolerance fast, then try it.

...the part that's missing in medicineman's post is the part about piracetam where, in addition "priming" the nmda receptors, it will enhance their density and massively kick up additional NMDA receptor binding sites. you've essentially made a mile-long bullseye mark for your excitotoxic glutamate. plus, the magnesium depletion you'd get with amphetamines would only make the calcium influx worse. again, despite medicineman's post being the one that has the most information out of this thread, i don't see you asking him to cite any studies so that he can back up what he said...

Pike,
would L-Glutamine supplementation (rather than Piracetam) + Amphetamine be likely to have the same effect (rapid tolerance and neurotoxicity)?
What would a glutamate blocker (like Memantine) + L-Glutamine + Amphetamine do when combined (I am thinking less tolerance and neurotoxicity than with L-Glutamine and Amphetamine alone)?

[schatzi891]

Man oh Man...just read this thread! Pike I gotta say...you need to "chill" big time. Lots of ego and anger going on there! It all comes down to "who cares" in the end anyway

[Pike]

Man oh Man...just read this thread! Pike I gotta say...you need to "chill" big time. Lots of ego and anger going on there! It all comes down to "who cares" in the end anyway

this was an old thread that came up when i was under a lot of stress during finals. either way, i'll admit that i was out of line.



in any case:
Jacovis - L-Glutamine supplementation would essentially have about the same effect as piracetam. i don't think the effect on glutamate and calcium influx would be nearly as bad as it is with L-G supplementation, but it would nonetheless be a cocktail of excitotoxicity. an NMDA-antagonist like memantine probably could nullify the effects of glutamate release to some extent, but you're better off just not taking either of the two if you're going to use a glutamate blocker in attempt to nullfy the L-Glutamine you're supplementing.

[Zoroaster]

Man oh Man...just read this thread! Pike I gotta say...you need to "chill" big time. Lots of ego and anger going on there! It all comes down to "who cares" in the end anyway

this was an old thread that came up when i was under a lot of stress during finals. either way, i'll admit that i was out of line.



in any case:
Jacovis - L-Glutamine supplementation would essentially have about the same effect as piracetam. i don't think the effect on glutamate and calcium influx would be nearly as bad as it is with L-G supplementation, but it would nonetheless be a cocktail of excitotoxicity. an NMDA-antagonist like memantine probably could nullify the effects of glutamate release to some extent, but you're better off just not taking either of the two if you're going to use a glutamate blocker in attempt to nullfy the L-Glutamine you're supplementing.

Are you sure? I'm actually pretty skeptical that L-Glutamine supplementation would increase your levels of the neurotransmitter glutamate to any detectable degree. Especially if taken after a workout (which is what I assume Jacovis is doing). My understanding was that the glutamine is almost exclusively used in protein synthesis. And your body is chock full of glutamine. The 5g you take via supplementation barely increases your overall pool on a percentage basis.

[Pike]

Man oh Man...just read this thread! Pike I gotta say...you need to "chill" big time. Lots of ego and anger going on there! It all comes down to "who cares" in the end anyway

this was an old thread that came up when i was under a lot of stress during finals. either way, i'll admit that i was out of line.



in any case:
Jacovis - L-Glutamine supplementation would essentially have about the same effect as piracetam. i don't think the effect on glutamate and calcium influx would be nearly as bad as it is with L-G supplementation, but it would nonetheless be a cocktail of excitotoxicity. an NMDA-antagonist like memantine probably could nullify the effects of glutamate release to some extent, but you're better off just not taking either of the two if you're going to use a glutamate blocker in attempt to nullfy the L-Glutamine you're supplementing.

Are you sure? I'm actually pretty skeptical that L-Glutamine supplementation would increase your levels of the neurotransmitter glutamate to any detectable degree. Especially if taken after a workout (which is what I assume Jacovis is doing). My understanding was that the glutamine is almost exclusively used in protein synthesis. And your body is chock full of glutamine. The 5g you take via supplementation barely increases your overall pool on a percentage basis.

true. you'd probably get much more glutamate release from piracetam. however IIRC, doesn't working out already trigger large-scale glutamate release?

i suppose it would boil down to the purpose to which you're using the prescription adderall. if it is for ADHD, remember that brain studies have shown overactive glutaminergic activity in the brains of those with ADHD. working out, thus triggering more glutamate release, supplementing the building blocks for more glutamate, and then taking a drug that evokes further glutamate release seems to me like quite a glutamate-cocktail. however, if you're using the adderall as a means of giving you increased energy in your workouts, then it isn't as bad, and you'd probably be able to protect yourself from NMDA overactivation with some magnesium supplementation.

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