13 replies to this topic

[hamishm00]

Intake of polyamine rich food seems to square the mortality / age curve for mice. The synthesis by the body decreases with age, so food intake appears to inhibit the progression of age-associated pathologies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pt=AbstractPlus

Polyamine-rich food decreases age-associated pathology and mortality in aged mice.
Soda K, Dobashi Y, Kano Y, Tsujinaka S, Konishi F.

Department of Cardiovascular Research Institute, Saitama Medical Center, Jichi Medical University, Japan; Department of Surgery, Saitama Medical Center, Jichi Medical University, Japan.

The purpose of this study was to test whether oral intake of foods rich in polyamines (spermine and spermidine) suppresses age-associated pathology in aged mice. Synthetic polyamines were mixed into experimental chows, and 24-week-old Jc1:ICR male mice were fed one of three chows containing differing polyamine concentrations. The spermine and spermidine concentrations in the low, normal, and high polyamine chows were 143 and 224nmol/g, 160 and 434nmol/g, and 374 and 1540nmol/g, respectively. An increase in concentration of polyamine in the blood was found only in mice fed the high polyamine chow at 50weeks of age. While the body weights of mice in all three groups were similar, the survival rate of mice fed high polyamine chow was significantly higher than those in the other two groups (p=0.011). Mice fed the high polyamine chow analyzed at 88weeks of age, corresponding to the end of the study, demonstrated lower incidence of glomerulosclerosis and increased expression of senescence marker protein-30 in both kidney and liver compared to those fed the low polyamine chow. As these pathological changes are associated with senescence, oral polyamine appears to inhibit the progression of age-associated pathologies.

PMID: 19735716 [PubMed - in process]

[health_nutty]

Mmm blue cheese stuffed mushrooms

[david ellis]

Here is a link to more polyamine-rich foods.

"We next looked for polyamine-rich food materials as a dietary source of polyamines. Foods found to be rich in polyamines included wheat germ, rice bran, black rice, Philippine mango, green pepper, Japanese pumpkin, nuts, fermented pickles, pond smelt, turban shell viscera, whelk viscera, salted salmon roe, salted cod roe, beef intestine (boiled) and liver of eel, beef, pork and chicken; and, as previously reported, soybean, fermented soybean (natto), mushrooms, orange and green tea leaf. These results offer useful information when it becomes necessary to ingest polyamines from food." (Mushrooms was in red type in the abstract)

It seems that my diet should look more like my grandparents diet.

I would like to know how much spermine and spermidine is in food. Apparently from the mouse study low and medium levels had little effect. 376/1540(spermine/spermidine) nmol per gram of dry food was needed to get a detectable effect.

[JLL]

Here's one:

Dietary polyamines, putrescine, spermidine and spermine, participate in many biochemical processes, mainly in cell proliferation and differentiation. Polyamines were determined as N-benzamides by micellar electrokinetic capillary chromatography in 153 samples of 21 foods, mostly culinary processed. Very low putrescine contents were observed in processed meats, pork liver and kidney, while the highest mean contents exceeded 55 mg kg−1 in stewed green pea, grapefruit and fresh green pepper. Higher spermine than spermidine contents were typical for foods of animal origin, while the opposite was observed in plant products. Mean spermidine contents, exceeding 20 mg kg−1, were found in dry soybean, stewed green pea, yellow pea puree and roasted chicken breast. Roasted chicken breast, stewed pork kidney, roasted pork liver and roasted pork neck had mean spermine contents above the same level. Polyamine content varies widely within individual food items, what makes application of the results by dietitians rather difficult.

And another one:

Commonly, PUT content in foods increases by bacterial activity during an inappropriate storage and processing, while SPD and SPM originate from raw materials. Higher contents of SPD as compared to SPM are typical for foods of plant origin, while the opposite relation is characteristic for foods of animal origin. Increased SPD and SPM levels are observed in young and metabolically active tissues.
High PUT levels, even hundreds mg kg-1, were reported in citrus fruit and juices, ketchup, sauerkraut, fermented soybean products, ripened cheeses and fish sauce. Legumes, cauliflower, broccoli and cultivated mushrooms are foods with high SPD contents of tens mg kg-1. Beef, pork, meat products and legumes contain usually 20-40 mg kg-1 of SPM, the contents in chicken meat and particularly in porcine and chicken offal (liver, kidney, heart) are even higher. Commonly, PAs content range widely within individual food items.

http://www.scitopics...polyamines.html

Cow's milk seems like a decent source:

Polyamines are highly regulated polycations which are essentially involved in cell growth and differentiation. Polyamines in food significantly contribute to the polyamine body pool. Dietary polyamines exert various direct and indirect trophic effects on the rat's immature intestine and play an important role during intestinal maturation. Human milk and that of other mammalians contain relatively high levels of polyamines which are essential luminal growth and maturation factors. The polyamines spermidine and spermine as well as their diamine precursor putrescine are ubiquitous normal constituents of all prokaryotic and eukaryotic cells and are essentially involved in various processes of cell growth and differentiation (Pegg & McCann, 1982; Tabor & Tabor, 1984; Seiler, 1990).

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11242447

Edited by JLL, 10 December 2009 - 08:43 PM.

[JLL]

Stewed green peas seem pretty good... pea soup maybe?

[david ellis]

Stewed green peas seem pretty good... pea soup maybe?

No, choice of mushrooms is easy, it seems to be the strongest. I like calves & chicken liver, another easy choice. Also blue cheese. Cow intestines is the next move. Maybe natto, but I doubt that green peas will have enough to work.

So the study that hashimoto linked to found that it had to be 1540 nmol spermidine per gram (dry weight) to be effective. Can you convert 1540 nmol/gram into a gram/kilogram number? The inflexion point is point is somewhere between 434 nmol/gram and 1540 nmol. No effect at all at 434 nmol/gram.

[niner]

Stewed green peas seem pretty good... pea soup maybe?

No, choice of mushrooms is easy, it seems to be the strongest. I like calves & chicken liver, another easy choice. Also blue cheese. Cow intestines is the next move. Maybe natto, but I doubt that green peas will have enough to work.

So the study that hashimoto [hamishm00] linked to found that it had to be 1540 nmol spermidine per gram (dry weight) to be effective. Can you convert 1540 nmol/gram into a gram/kilogram number? The inflexion point is point is somewhere between 434 nmol/gram and 1540 nmol. No effect at all at 434 nmol/gram.

(1540nm SPD/gm food) * (1e-9m/nm) * (202g SPD/m SPD) * (1000g food/kg food) = 0.311g SPD/kg food = 311mg SPD/kg food
(374nm SPM/gm food) (1e-9m/nm) * (145g SPM/n SPM) * (1000g food/kg food) = 54mg SPM/kg food

So this tells us that the foods that are high in polyamines probably aren't high enough, since they are around 20mg/kg SPD or SPM, and that's not all we are going to eat anyway. Looks like we might need to supplement in order to get the same level of SPD/SPM as the rats did. No telling what contribution putrescine would make. Eat more rotten stuff? And oranges.

(insert blowjob joke here )

Edited by niner, 11 December 2009 - 05:21 AM.

[JLL]

Is there any downside to polyamines? Seems like they're related to insulin, protein synthesis and growth -- could it also be bad for longevity?

[rhodan]

Is there any downside to polyamines? Seems like they're related to insulin, protein synthesis and growth -- could it also be bad for longevity?

Seems to be linked
- with cancer, exemple : Polyamines and cancer
- with pain, exemple : Polyamines and pain

[david ellis]

(1540nm SPD/gm food) * (1e-9m/nm) * (202g SPD/m SPD) * (1000g food/kg food) = 0.311g SPD/kg food = 311mg SPD/kg food
(374nm SPM/gm food) (1e-9m/nm) * (145g SPM/n SPM) * (1000g food/kg food) = 54mg SPM/kg food

So this tells us that the foods that are high in polyamines probably aren't high enough, since they are around 20mg/kg SPD or SPM, and that's not all we are going to eat anyway. Looks like we might need to supplement in order to get the same level of SPD/SPM as the rats did. No telling what contribution putrescine would make. Eat more rotten stuff? And oranges.

Thanks niner for doing the conversion. Your calculation clarified the thread's discussion. Menudo now doesn't have a good chance of becoming a favorite food. Mushrooms, still every time I think of them. I still feel a bit un-easy that we eat less and less of the whole animal. As a result we are deficient in Vitamin K(x) and who knows what else.

[1kgcoffee]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting this.

[e Volution]

I still feel a bit un-easy that we eat less and less of the whole animal. As a result we are deficient in Vitamin K(x) and who knows what else.

I totally agree! It seems like almost every time a new nutrient/vitamin/whatever is discussed and we look for natural sources, liver and other organs always make an appearance. It makes me think I should really move forward with incorporating organs as a substantial part of my diet and stop 'filling the gaps' with Vitamin K2 supplementation, etc.

[kismet]

We avoid those animal products, because - by and large - they're toxic or unhealthy (or some of their components). Deficiency is the prize we pay for avoidance. Thus hypothetically avoidance + supplementation to fix def. gives you the best of both worlds. But then you always run the small risk of missing some of your deficiencies and damaging your health. Obviously, the more you avoid and the less knowledgable one is, the higher the risk.

Although, gladly it is untrue that a good, healthy, meat-free diet would be deficient in vitamin K. High dose vit K1 may be even superior to MK-ns. It's def. in the same ballpark, but you can't go wrong getting enough of both.

Edited by kismet, 07 February 2010 - 02:24 AM.

[niner]

We avoid those animal products, because - by and large - they're toxic or unhealthy (or some of their components).

Is this a case of "the dose makes the poison"? Or are the micronutrient levels too variable? Would the occasional consumption of a small amount of liver represent a problem? Seems unlikely. Obviously, you wouldn't want to megadose it.