51 replies to this topic

[AORsupport]

This might be a little off-topic.  Is SMI2LE's RALA have only +R Alpha Lipoic Acid?  Or is bad negatively charged ALA in their?  What about K-R-Ala?  I just got some.

http://www.aor.ca/ma...-october_01.pdf

yeah, on the gernova site, they say, it is "(typical RLA content >99.4%, SLA< 0.6%)". My post started because,
http://www.aor.ca/ma...summer_2002.pdf
said that AOR.CA are the only people that +RLA and no SLA.

That was true in 2002, when the above was written. AOR was the first company in the world to release pharmaceutical-grade R(+)-lipoic acid, or indeed to make R(+)-lipoic acid available as a supplement, period, instead of just to scientists for research purposes. Since our initial pioneering efforts, some companies have tried to pass off the racemate or a sloppy partial chiral separation as R(+)-LA, but today at least some other companies do offer the real thing.

If you got the KRALA, then you need 600 mg KRALA to equal 200 mg RALA.  So to get an effective anti aging/cognitive enhancement dose, take 600 mg KRALA 3 times a day.  If you got the plain RALA, then 200 mg = 200 mg.

Careful: this depends on exactly what you're buying. KRALA itself -- meaning the fully-reacted potassium salt of R(+)-LA -- is 84% R(+)-LA moiety; curiously, Geronova's previously-posted information suggests that their KRALA material is 67% R(+)-LA by weight; and their final marketed product contains an alkaline carrier, which brings the R(+)-LA content down to 40%. So depending on exactly what you buy, 600 mg could provide ~500, 400, or 240 mg R(+)-LA.

200 mg just falls out of it

That is a lot of RALA at 600 mgs.

First, again, the point is, it isn't actually 600 mg of R(+)-lipoic acid, but 600 mg of the salt and/or a carrier. Think of the amount of "elemental" mineral in a salt or chelate.

Second, 600 mg is not actually a lot of R(+)-lipoic acid: clinical trials routinely use 600-1800 mg of the racemate, and often intravenously at that. (Unless you were only referring to the bulk).

With the safety concerns that AOR put out in their periodical I am debating whether or not I should take it.

To what safety concerns do you refer? Everything has risks, of course, but even racemic lipoic acid is not acutely toxic, and the orthomolecule I would say can be fairly classified as amongst the safest substances to put into your body (if it's the real thing, of pharmaceutical grade, etc).

I'm aware of the chemical similarity, but do you have a reference for how much biotin one is supposed to take which I gather is 1 mg biotin/gm...ALA? gm R-ala?

R(+)-lipoic acid, like the conventional stuff, competes with biotin for absorption. The reason for this lies in the structural similarity between biotin and lipoic acid, and their sharing the same transporter (1). However, the competition between biotin and lipoic acid is very small, and the inhibition is mostly lipoic acid inhibiting biotin absorption, because one takes literally a thousand times as much lipoic acid as biotin. Therefore, the inhibition of lipoic acid absorption is negligible; it's the inhibition of biotin that might raise concern.

But the evidence shows that this isn't really an issue. First, clinical trials in humans using doses as high as 1800 mg/day of lipoic acid with no biotin have never shown any symptoms related to biotin deficiency; and, second, a careful animal study (2) concluded that even though "the chronic administration of lipoic acid reduces the activities of biotin-dependent pyruvate carboxylase and -methylcrotonyl-CoA carboxylase," still "enzyme activities remain normal if biotin at pharmacological doses is administered together with lipoic acid" and that "Even without supplemental biotin, the decreases in enzyme activities are not dramatic and would presumably not cause pathology in patients." "The doses of lipoic acid that were chosen in [that] study span the range used for therapeutic purposes" in humans (2).

AOR provides ten times the DRI of biotin per daily dose in our R(+)-lipoic acid capsules because it is harmless and might help in persons who are already marginally low in biotin intake. The reality is, however, that most people using R(+)-lipoic acid are already supplementing biotin at many times the RDA.

To your health!

AOR

1. Prasad PD, Ganapathy V. Structure and function of mammalian
sodium-dependent multivitamin transporter. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab
Care. 2000 Jul;3(4):263-6.

2. Zempleni J, Trusty TA, Mock DM. Lipoic acid reduces the activities of
biotin-dependent carboxylases in rat liver. J Nutr. 1997
Sep;127(9):1776-81.

[nootropi]

Careful: this depends on exactly what you're buying. KRALA itself -- meaning the fully-reacted potassium salt of R(+)-LA -- is 84% R(+)-LA moiety; curiously, Geronova's previously-posted information suggests that their KRALA material is 67% R(+)-LA by weight; and their final marketed product contains an alkaline carrier, which brings the R(+)-LA content down to 40%. So depending on exactly what you buy, 600 mg could provide ~500, 400, or 240 mg R(+)-LA.

Hey AORsupport, you are actually wrong here, I contacted Geronova and asked:

I (with one of my associates) purchased some of your BULK KRALA; I am
wondering what the "bulk KRALA" is composed of; ie how much "K"RALA
would I need to take 100 mg "R"ALA.

The answer I recieved from Karyn at info@geronova.com

K-RALA is 40% active RLA, which means 100 mg of K-RALA is 40mg of RLA, so
you would need 250mg of K-RALA for an active dose of 100mg RLA.
Hope this helps.

[magr]

their final marketed product contains an alkaline carrier, which brings the R(+)-LA content down to 40%

Isn't that the answer you got from Geronova Nootropi?

Geronovas KRALA is 40% but if you purchase it somewhere else it could be different.

[nootropi]

their final marketed product contains an alkaline carrier, which brings the R(+)-LA content down to 40%

Isn't that the answer you got from Geronova Nootropi?

Geronovas KRALA is 40% but if you purchase it somewhere else it could be different.

Nope, what Rizzer has is the same exact product.

[AORsupport]

Careful: this depends on exactly what you're buying. KRALA itself -- meaning the fully-reacted potassium salt of R(+)-LA -- is 84% R(+)-LA moiety; curiously, Geronova's previously-posted information suggests that their KRALA material is 67% R(+)-LA by weight; and their final marketed product contains an alkaline carrier, which brings the R(+)-LA content down to 40%. So depending on exactly what you buy, 600 mg could provide ~500, 400, or 240 mg R(+)-LA.

Hey AORsupport, you are actually wrong here, I contacted Geronova and asked:

I (with one of my associates) purchased some of your BULK KRALA; I am
wondering what the "bulk KRALA" is composed of; ie how much "K"RALA
would I need to take 100 mg "R"ALA.

The answer I recieved from Karyn at info@geronova.com

K-RALA is 40% active RLA, which means 100 mg of K-RALA is 40mg of RLA, so
you would need 250mg of K-RALA for an active dose of 100mg RLA.
Hope this helps.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, here. I said,

Careful: this depends on exactly what you're buying. ... Geronova's  ... final marketed product contains an alkaline carrier, which brings the R(+)-LA content down to 40%.

... which is what their representative confirms, above. So, again, 600 mg of this material would provide 240 mg R(+)-LA.

By the way, I hate to nag you, but you are still using a strange posting method which leads to some very difficult-to-reply-to gunk in the responding window and forces one to step outside of the thread structure to reply. Could you please facilitate dialog by using the "straight" method of just hitting the QUOTE button when replying? Thanks!

To your health!

AOR

[magr]

AORsupport said Geronovas product is 40%.
Geronova said their product is 40%.
Rizzer has Geronovas product.

How is AORsupport wrong?

[nootropi]

By the way, I hate to nag you, but you are still using a strange posting method which leads to some very difficult-to-reply-to gunk in the responding window and forces one to step outside of the thread structure to reply. Could you please facilitate dialog by using the "straight" method of just hitting the QUOTE button when replying? Thanks!

I hate to correct you twice in the same day, but I guess I have to.

Your posting style(s) has the same problem. Just try to quote yourself. Sometimes you make me scratch my head AORsupport. You seem like a rather wise fellow, but you are complaining about a forum feature error, one that is present in your own posting style.

And you said three different things about Geronova's product, let me please remind you, whereas the Geronova rep said 40%, your statement is actually quite confusing with your multiple unequal calculations:

Careful: this depends on exactly what you're buying. KRALA itself -- meaning the fully-reacted potassium salt of R(+)-LA -- is 84% R(+)-LA moiety; curiously, Geronova's previously-posted information suggests that their KRALA material is 67% R(+)-LA by weight; and their final marketed product contains an alkaline carrier, which brings the R(+)-LA content down to 40%. So depending on exactly what you buy, 600 mg could provide ~500, 400, or 240 mg R(+)-LA.

[magr]

And you said three different things about Geronova's product, let me please remind you, whereas the Geronova rep said 40%, your statement is actually quite confusing with your multiple unequal calculations:

AORsupport just told you how they come to the 40% diluted version.

I have been called dumb on this forum and i can get it. What is confusing?

[nootropi]

And you said three different things about Geronova's product, let me please remind you, whereas the Geronova rep said 40%, your statement is actually quite confusing with your multiple unequal calculations:

AORsupport just told you how they come to the 40% diluted version.

I have been called dumb on this forum and i can get it. What is confusing?

This was never a confusing issue for me. AORsupport, in my opinion, made it far more so then is necessary.

The Geronova representative said 40%. The Geronova Rep (if you do not remember, Geronova is the company that manufactures KRALA, and sells it to AORsupport's company) told me 250 mg KRALA should be roughly equivalent to 100 mg RALA.

AORsupport not only said 40%, but three other numbers which implied that 600 mg KRALA is not equivalent to 200 mg RALA. He did this on purpose; in my opinion, he did this so some readers might become so confused with his number inequivalencies that they would feel the need to click his banner and buy the exact same product from him for ten times the price that you can get from Geronova yourself; or Rizzer (Geronova only sells this product by the kilogram).

[magr]

I think that his intention was to make people realize that KRALA can be stronger than the usual 40%.

Careful: this depends on exactly what you're buying. KRALA itself -- meaning the fully-reacted potassium salt of R(+)-LA -- is 84% R(+)-LA moiety; curiously, Geronova's previously-posted information suggests that their KRALA material is 67% R(+)-LA by weight; and their final marketed product contains an alkaline carrier, which brings the R(+)-LA content down to 40%. So depending on exactly what you buy, 600 mg could provide ~500, 400, or 240 mg R(+)-LA.

Read it one more time with a little thought and you will figure out that this has nothing to do with marketing, it was just made so people can be careful and not ingest too high doses of it. If you buy KRALA made in China for example it could have a higher content.

[AORsupport]

And you said three different things about Geronova's product, let me please remind you, whereas the Geronova rep said 40%, your statement is actually quite confusing with your multiple unequal calculations:

AORsupport just told you how they come to the 40% diluted version.

I have been called dumb on this forum and i can get it. What is confusing?

This was never a confusing issue for me. AORsupport, in my opinion, made it far more so then is necessary.

The Geronova representative said 40%. The Geronova Rep .... told me 250 mg KRALA should be roughly equivalent to 100 mg RALA.

... which is what I said -- for Geronova's finished marketed product. If you don't buy Geronova's finished product -- if you used their stated source material, or fully-reacted pure KRALA -- you would get a different percentage of R(+)-LA moiety, as I indicated. What you get depends on what you use.

AORsupport not only said 40%, but three other numbers which implied that 600 mg KRALA is not equivalent to 200 mg RALA.

No matter which of these 3 materials one uses, 600 mg KRALA is not equivalent to 200 mg of R(+)-LA. For example, Geronova's finished marketed product is 40% R(+)-LA moiety: 600 x 0.40 = 240, not 200. For their KRALA raw compound (no formulants), 600 x 0.67 = 400 mg. And for straight, fully-reacted potassium salt of R(+)-lipoic acid, 600 x 0.84 = 504 mg.

He did this on purpose; in my opinion, he did this so some readers might become so confused with his number inequivalencies that they would feel the need to click his banner and buy the exact same product from him for ten times the price that you can get from Geronova yourself; or Rizzer (Geronova only sells this product by the kilogram).

This ad hominem attack really doesn't help us move forward. Geronova themselves are rightly careful to distinguish the components of their finished product as you posted yourself from the BAC website just a few weeks ago:

Capsules contain 100mg of bioavailable RLA from 250mg K-RALA™ powder, along with D-biotin. (Powder is 40% RLA, 20% potassium, & 40% FDA approved inert carrier.)

Without the inert carrier in their marketed finished product, you get their 67% R(+)-LA raw material. And choose straight, fully-reacted potassium salt of R(+)-lipoic acid, and you get 84% R(+)-LA content.

(if you do not remember, Geronova is the company that manufactures KRALA, and sells it to AORsuppor's company)

I'm not sure where you got this impression, but in any case it isn't true. AOR is not currently using K-RALA, and even when we were, we were not buying it from Geronova or their supplier.

To your health!

AOR

[nootropi]

This is not an attack, you are confusing people by not directly answering the question.

Once again, let me remind the readers of what the Geronova representative stated:

K-RALA is 40% active RLA, which means 100 mg of K-RALA is 40mg of RLA, so
you would need 250mg of K-RALA for an active dose of 100mg RLA.
Hope this helps.

Here is a link to Geronova, the source for KRALA.

If you want to buy this product in less than kilogram amounts (for an affordable price), you can purchase KRALA from smi2le.biz

[magr]

If you want to buy this product in less than kilogram amounts (for an affordable price), you can purchase KRALA from smi2le.biz

And if you want to be sure you actually get what you pay for, you might want to order from somewhere else.

[nootropi]

If you want to buy this product in less than kilogram amounts (for an affordable price), you can purchase KRALA from smi2le.biz

And if you want to be sure you actually get what you pay for, you might want to order from somewhere else.

I would agree with magr's statement if it were correct.

[scottl]

Nootropi,

So you think it is now safe, and anyone placing there order e.g. today will for sure get their merchandise and get it in a reasonable period of time?

[nootropi]

Nootropi,

So you think it is now safe, and anyone placing there order e.g. today will for sure get their merchandise and get it in a reasonable period of time?

I don't know if I want to get into another customer service discussion. In fact, I would prefer not to, and let those individuals with concerns that are legitimate to take those concerns to the appropriate place, not the imminst forum; nothing will be accomplished here by complaining; unless wasting your breath is considered an accomplishment.

[magr]

I would agree with magr's statement if it were correct.

Well i have not recieved what i paid for.

Correct or not?

I don't know if I want to get into another customer service discussion. In fact, I would prefer not to, and let those individuals with concerns that are legitimate to take those concerns to the appropriate place, not the imminst forum; nothing will be accomplished here by complaining; unless wasting your breath is considered an accomplishment.

If you don't want to get into another customer service discussion then stop advertising and recommend a vendor who runs a very flaky business!

[caver]

Um...I buy Geronova K-RALA and some other stuff from Relentless Improvement; I get my stuff pretty quick and am satisfied. From what I have gathered from this thread, Geronova K-RALA really doesn't contain 100mg of R-Lipoic Acid per capsule as touted. Now is this really the case? If it is, then Geronova is breaking the law. Deceptive labeling is not ok. Can anyone here clarify this for me please. I just ordered some K-RALA today as a matter of fact.

[psychenaut]

GeroNova K-RALA specifies the actual RLA content on their label. There is 100mg of actual r-lipoic in each capsule.

You are correct to be concerned as some bottlers specify the total capsule mg, not the actual RLA content mg.

GeroNova has perhaps the most rigorous standards of any company I have ever dealt with. They should be the least of your concerns.

Cheers,
Pete

[notshorty]

Ok, digging from the grave here:

ALCAR has a longer half-life, but should still best be taken at least twice daily. It should be taken away from food and from other quaternary amines (including DMAE, choline, and TMG) as they share a transporter system in the brain and GI and will compete for absorption if taken together.

Whereas

8. What are some good supplements to stack with carnitine?

Alpha lipoic acid - Studies show that carnitine and ALA or R-ALA have additive benefits in protecting against oxidative damage, improving substrate utilization, improving neurological function, and improving the function of mitochondria (21, 33, 35, 55). They also may have an additive benefit in improving hearing function (61).

Choline - Two studies, one in human and one in rats (which also included caffeine), indicate that carnitine and choline have synergistic effects in decreasing body fat (5, 67). The dosage of choline is generally 1-2 times that of carnitine.

So... Should I stack ALCAR with choline (Alpha GPC) or keep 'em separate?!!?

NS

[ajnast4r]

So... Should I stack ALCAR with choline (Alpha GPC) or keep 'em separate?!!?

NS

alcar should be taken on an empty stomach, away from meals

alpha-gpc should be taken with food

[doug123]

this topic deserves a bump