19 replies to this topic

[bocadillodelomo]

is it just me or do b complexs make anyone else jittery like and disruptive to sleep? i'm talkin small amts too like 7mgs of thiamin, riboflavin, etc.

I really want to take a bcomplex because of the good things ive heard about it and im b12 deficient but anytime i take the pill, even like 1/4 of the capsule which amounts to 7mg of a b25 complex.. i get all wired and sensitive to light and when i go to sleep, i'm like half awake and half asleep and fully not in REM sleep, i wake up like a zombie.

Anyone else react to bcomplex's this way?
I was told it was cause i'm deficient and my body is getting adjusted. i'm not sure though

Edited by bocadillodelomo, 01 February 2010 - 01:16 AM.

[jazzcat]

is it just me or do b complexs make anyone else jittery like and disruptive to sleep? i'm talkin small amts too like 7mgs of thiamin, riboflavin, etc.

I really want to take a bcomplex because of the good things ive heard about it and im b12 deficient but anytime i take the pill, even like 1/4 of the capsule which amounts to 7mg of a b25 complex.. i get all wired and sensitive to light and when i go to sleep, i'm like half awake and half asleep and fully not in REM sleep, i wake up like a zombie.

Anyone else react to bcomplex's this way?
I was told it was cause i'm deficient and my body is getting adjusted. i'm not sure though

You might try a B complex with methyl folate or a separate methyl folate to see how that form works for you.

That reaction you have is what happens to undermethylators. B complexes usually have niacinamide; either folic acid or niacin (not niacinamide) can cause some types a problem.

You should always take folate when treating a B12 deficiency so this nutrient is important to you now.

[bocadillodelomo]

is it just me or do b complexs make anyone else jittery like and disruptive to sleep? i'm talkin small amts too like 7mgs of thiamin, riboflavin, etc.

I really want to take a bcomplex because of the good things ive heard about it and im b12 deficient but anytime i take the pill, even like 1/4 of the capsule which amounts to 7mg of a b25 complex.. i get all wired and sensitive to light and when i go to sleep, i'm like half awake and half asleep and fully not in REM sleep, i wake up like a zombie.

Anyone else react to bcomplex's this way?
I was told it was cause i'm deficient and my body is getting adjusted. i'm not sure though

You might try a B complex with methyl folate or a separate methyl folate to see how that form works for you.

That reaction you have is what happens to undermethylators. B complexes usually have niacinamide; either folic acid or niacin (not niacinamide) can cause some types a problem.

You should always take folate when treating a B12 deficiency so this nutrient is important to you now.

Oh yeah i actually been taking methylb12 sublingual and folinic acid. I bought a bottle of Megafolinic and didnt want to throw it away. but after i finished the folinic, ill go with the methylfolate.

Huh, you dont say about the undermethylator stuff. Its weird because when i take hydroxycobalamin i can't sleep and get "wired" just like the b complex reaction (even though ive taken b12 in methyl form no problem). I thought jarrow's b complex has all methyl and bioactive forms of bs, no?
P5P and all that? do you think the folic acid in non methylfolate form is doing it? theres only 400mg, and i took 1/4 so i took 100mg of folic acid. weird.

[jazzcat]

They are not the same thing. Calcium folinate has to be converted to methyl folate by your body. Folinic acid or calcium folinate is more bioactive or closer to methyl folate than folicin (new name for folic acid to add to the confusion) but not quite the same thing.

So I think your reaction to folinic acid and hydroxy B12 seems to indicate you need methyl donors and or methyl folate.

Methyl B12 is generally better for most people to use; but, you might be benefitting from it because it is acting as a methyl donor that you could be in need of now.

Some forms of certain nutrients are better for some types; it's a trial and experiment kind of process. But the form that works best for you may give you some insight into your specific nutritional requirements regarding some other supplements.

Edited by jazzcat, 01 February 2010 - 02:58 AM.

[bocadillodelomo]

No, they are not the same thing. Calcium folinate has to be converted to methyl folate by your body. Folinic acid or calcium folinate is more bioactive or closer to methyl folate than folicin (new name for folic acid to add to the confusion) but not quite the same thing.

Methyl B12 is generally better for most people to use; but, you might be benefitting from it because it is acting as a methyl donor that you could be in need of now.

Some forms of certain nutrients are better for some types; it's a trial and experiment kind of process. But the form that works best for you may give you some insight into your specific nutritional requirements regarding some other supplements.

Oh yeah from what i understand, folinic is the step inbetween from folic acid and methyfolate, and although it saves a few steps.. its still not fully converted, nor a methyl donor.
I might have to switch over.

Are you saying i can counteract the weird feeling i get from the b complex by adding methyl folate, since it donates the methyl group?

[jazzcat]

If I were you I would sit on the folinic acid and get methyl folate for now.

You might be OK with folinic acid at some point particularly if you take another methyl donor like SAMe. But that's your decision to make. I'm not sure what your intentions are and what your financial situation is. But there are more things you could do than just take a B complex. But methyl folate would be a start when you decide to get some.

[bocadillodelomo]

If I were you I would sit on the folinic acid and get methyl folate for now.

You might be OK with folinic acid at some point particularly if you take another methyl donor like SAMe. But that's your decision to make. I'm not sure what your intentions are and what your financial situation is. But there are more things you could do than just take a B complex. But methyl folate would be a start when you decide to get some.

Yeah i think its a good idea, and like you said, i can always use the folinic later.
I did some reading and if you are an undermethylator, you will do better on things like methylb12, methylfolate, etc. because it donates the methyl group.. and infact if you take things like cyano or hydroxy, or folic acid that needs converting, things like sleep issues might occur.

I have a folate trap. It's in my blood test. I have high (extremely high, and consistently) levels of serum folate with no supplementation. I also have a severe b12 deficiency. Now, the folate trap occurs when methylcobalamin is missing (because cobalamin is missing) and is unable to convert the one form of folate to another. what i am curious about is, if i start mass supplementing with methylcobalamin and open up that folate trap, is taking methylfolate going to be too many methyl groups?

but yeah, ordering it right now.

[jazzcat]

If I were you I would sit on the folinic acid and get methyl folate for now.

You might be OK with folinic acid at some point particularly if you take another methyl donor like SAMe. But that's your decision to make. I'm not sure what your intentions are and what your financial situation is. But there are more things you could do than just take a B complex. But methyl folate would be a start when you decide to get some.

Yeah i think its a good idea, and like you said, i can always use the folinic later.
I did some reading and if you are an undermethylator, you will do better on things like methylb12, methylfolate, etc. because it donates the methyl group.. and infact if you take things like cyano or hydroxy, or folic acid that needs converting, things like sleep issues might occur.

I have a folate trap. It's in my blood test. I have high (extremely high, and consistently) levels of serum folate with no supplementation. I also have a severe b12 deficiency. Now, the folate trap occurs when methylcobalamin is missing (because cobalamin is missing) and is unable to convert the one form of folate to another. what i am curious about is, if i start mass supplementing with methylcobalamin and open up that folate trap, is taking methylfolate going to be too many methyl groups?

but yeah, ordering it right now.

if I were you I would get methylation working better. You have a problem and the solution in simple terms is improving methylation. I doubt you could overdo methyl donors now. Otherwise you're going the slow route of addressing your nutritional problems. I would hope your doctor can help you because you will need some other things at some point like riboflavin. And a qualified doc can help with tests to make sure you're taking the right nutrients and at the appropriate doses.

But folate is building up or becoming trapped and you also have high histamine levels. Folate raises histamine levels. Reduce the trapped folate and you will feel better because your histamine levels will be in normal range. Methyl donors and the right augmenting nutrients will correct those elevated levels.

[bocadillodelomo]

If I were you I would sit on the folinic acid and get methyl folate for now.

You might be OK with folinic acid at some point particularly if you take another methyl donor like SAMe. But that's your decision to make. I'm not sure what your intentions are and what your financial situation is. But there are more things you could do than just take a B complex. But methyl folate would be a start when you decide to get some.

Yeah i think its a good idea, and like you said, i can always use the folinic later.
I did some reading and if you are an undermethylator, you will do better on things like methylb12, methylfolate, etc. because it donates the methyl group.. and infact if you take things like cyano or hydroxy, or folic acid that needs converting, things like sleep issues might occur.

I have a folate trap. It's in my blood test. I have high (extremely high, and consistently) levels of serum folate with no supplementation. I also have a severe b12 deficiency. Now, the folate trap occurs when methylcobalamin is missing (because cobalamin is missing) and is unable to convert the one form of folate to another. what i am curious about is, if i start mass supplementing with methylcobalamin and open up that folate trap, is taking methylfolate going to be too many methyl groups?

but yeah, ordering it right now.

if I were you I would get methylation working better. You have a problem and the solution in simple terms is improving methylation. I doubt you could overdo methyl donors now. Otherwise you're going the slow route of addressing your nutritional problems. I would hope your doctor can help you because you will need some other things at some point like riboflavin. And a qualified doc can help with tests to make sure you're taking the right nutrients and at the appropriate doses.

But folate is building up or becoming trapped and you also have high histamine levels. Folate raises histamine levels. Reduce the trapped folate and you will feel better because your histamine levels will be in normal range. Methyl donors and the right augmenting nutrients will correct those elevated levels.

yeah good call. i can deal with overmethylation later, if that ever is a problem in the future. right now my methylation sucks and i gotta work on opening up that folate trap and getting some solid useable folate. I think once i add methylfolate and upp my methylb12, i can add the bcomplex and who knows, i might not react so poorly and wired from it.

thanks for the help jazzcat.

[David Styles]

is it just me or do b complexs make anyone else jittery like and disruptive to sleep? i'm talkin small amts too like 7mgs of thiamin, riboflavin, etc.

I really want to take a bcomplex because of the good things ive heard about it and im b12 deficient but anytime i take the pill, even like 1/4 of the capsule which amounts to 7mg of a b25 complex.. i get all wired and sensitive to light and when i go to sleep, i'm like half awake and half asleep and fully not in REM sleep, i wake up like a zombie.

Anyone else react to bcomplex's this way?
I was told it was cause i'm deficient and my body is getting adjusted. i'm not sure though

Did you take it with food? If not, I recommend doing so. Vit B-complex does bad things to my body if taken in large quantities (as it usually comes in most Vit B-Complex or multivitamin supplements) on an empty stomach.

The above is based purely on personal observation and I am not familiar with why this should necessarily occur the way it does.

So I just make sure to take it with food instead!

[bocadillodelomo]

is it just me or do b complexs make anyone else jittery like and disruptive to sleep? i'm talkin small amts too like 7mgs of thiamin, riboflavin, etc.

I really want to take a bcomplex because of the good things ive heard about it and im b12 deficient but anytime i take the pill, even like 1/4 of the capsule which amounts to 7mg of a b25 complex.. i get all wired and sensitive to light and when i go to sleep, i'm like half awake and half asleep and fully not in REM sleep, i wake up like a zombie.

Anyone else react to bcomplex's this way?
I was told it was cause i'm deficient and my body is getting adjusted. i'm not sure though

Did you take it with food? If not, I recommend doing so. Vit B-complex does bad things to my body if taken in large quantities (as it usually comes in most Vit B-Complex or multivitamin supplements) on an empty stomach.

The above is based purely on personal observation and I am not familiar with why this should necessarily occur the way it does.

So I just make sure to take it with food instead!

Yeah i did actually. I think the theory behind that is food allows better absorption by giving the differnt building blocks for conversion of the inactive b's, like folic acid, or cyanocobalamin... the breaking apart and building so to speak. it's just for me, i can't sleep and get wired. my mom whos like 95 pounds takes the entire pill no problem everyday. i cant even take 1/4 of it.

[Maven]

I know what you're talking about, b/c I've that problem w/ some B-complex supplements, too. The problem turned out not to be the amounts of each vitamin, but the ratio of niacinamide to the other B vitamins. Niacinamide promotes the formation of the relaxing neurotransmitter, serotonin. An ideal ratio of niacinamide to vits. B's 1,2, & 6 (approximately equal amounts of those) is ~20:1. That's about how it's used in some basic cellular processes. No supplements provide that, but a few go in the direction of more niacinamide. If you stay under 10mg/day of B's 1,2, & 6, between 100 - 200 mg. of niacinamide, and less Vit B 5 (pantothenic acid or pantothenates) than niacinamide, you should find your problem is solved. Vitamin B 5 is very nervous-making if you take more than 100 mg/ day for many people.

The only other issue that might be affecting you if correcting the ratio doesn't work, is that you are taking a yeast-bound B-complex supplement and are allergic to yeast. For some people, part of an allergic reaction can be increased cortisol, which sometimes masks other allergic symptoms so all the person experiences is the jittery excess cortisol feeling. Most "food-based" supplements, however healthy they might be for many people, are contraindicated for those allergic to yeast. Jarrow "B-Right" is a pretty good 2-aday, fairly balanced B-complex w/o yeast, but I would still add an extra 200 mg of niacinamide in the evening. Source Naturals "Coenzymate™ B Complex" sublinguals is similar. The Jarrow uses gelatin capsules, while the Source Naturals is vegetarian.

Believe it or not, the two I mentioned above are the best non-yeast B-complex supplements I've found, even though their ratio is more like 4:1. Everything else is worse.

If the yeast or food allergies isn't a problem, there is Garden of Life "Vitamin Code Raw B-Complex" w/ a 4.5:1 ratio (very slightly better). It has a whole bunch of enzymes, foods, probiotics and yeast included--great for those w/o allergic tendencies, but I would never recommend it to anyone who's ever experienced a food allergy since it includes so many potential allergens.

I hope this is helpful.

[stablemind]

I know what you're talking about, b/c I've that problem w/ some B-complex supplements, too. The problem turned out not to be the amounts of each vitamin, but the ratio of niacinamide to the other B vitamins. Niacinamide promotes the formation of the relaxing neurotransmitter, serotonin. An ideal ratio of niacinamide to vits. B's 1,2, & 6 (approximately equal amounts of those) is ~20:1. That's about how it's used in some basic cellular processes. No supplements provide that, but a few go in the direction of more niacinamide. If you stay under 10mg/day of B's 1,2, & 6, between 100 - 200 mg. of niacinamide, and less Vit B 5 (pantothenic acid or pantothenates) than niacinamide, you should find your problem is solved. Vitamin B 5 is very nervous-making if you take more than 100 mg/ day for many people.

The only other issue that might be affecting you if correcting the ratio doesn't work, is that you are taking a yeast-bound B-complex supplement and are allergic to yeast. For some people, part of an allergic reaction can be increased cortisol, which sometimes masks other allergic symptoms so all the person experiences is the jittery excess cortisol feeling. Most "food-based" supplements, however healthy they might be for many people, are contraindicated for those allergic to yeast. Jarrow "B-Right" is a pretty good 2-aday, fairly balanced B-complex w/o yeast, but I would still add an extra 200 mg of niacinamide in the evening. Source Naturals "Coenzymate™ B Complex" sublinguals is similar. The Jarrow uses gelatin capsules, while the Source Naturals is vegetarian.

Believe it or not, the two I mentioned above are the best non-yeast B-complex supplements I've found, even though their ratio is more like 4:1. Everything else is worse.

If the yeast or food allergies isn't a problem, there is Garden of Life "Vitamin Code Raw B-Complex" w/ a 4.5:1 ratio (very slightly better). It has a whole bunch of enzymes, foods, probiotics and yeast included--great for those w/o allergic tendencies, but I would never recommend it to anyone who's ever experienced a food allergy since it includes so many potential allergens.

I hope this is helpful.

Is anyone else not able to fall asleep if they take an extra B complex pill? When I take one pill, all my adhd symptoms are reduced, my migraines are nearly eliminated, and all my energy is restored. I can't describe how miraculous Jarrow's Optimized B formula is to me... could this be due to my histamine levels/ under-methylation?

B complexes have literally changed my life... every aspect has improved dramatically. I can form words in my head, follow a train of thought, go to bed on time, and wake up feeling refreshed, have no migraines when getting up from bed, etc.... when I take B complexes... no sleeping aid supplement has ever worked (like melatonin), and after supplementing myself with B complex, I can feel the effects of other supplements.

http://www.addforums...ead.php?t=73271

[jazzcat]

I'm not sure what the explanation is but you might look up the symptoms for undermethylation / histadelia. One symptom is a racing mind. This type can have a mind that goes a million miles a minute and they have difficulty turning off when it is time to fall asleep. They can also be light sleepers who can't sleep late in the morning. They can be prone to headaches.

There are a number of symptoms that you can find on different websites and you should not match all of them; if you have about 5 of them then you might have a problem with undermethylation.

Histadelics are the only one I know of that can have some type of problem with a B complex or even some multivitamins because of the B vitamins in them; it's usually the folic acid that can cause a problem especially in high doses. Of course there are other mutations besides MTHFr so it is possible you could be reacting to something else besides too much regular (non-methyl) folate.

But if one B complex helps you then you may have some B vitamin deficiency that you should correct. I think B complexes have limited uses because they make it impossible for you to fine tune your dose of each of the B vitamins. One size does not fit all when it comes to nutrition. You might try taking most of those B vitamins as separate supplements, avoiding folic acid altogether. If that works then you might try a methyl folate supplement.

Undermethylators will usually flush from only about 50 mg of niacin. A low dose of niacin, like in the Jarrow one, should be fine; but it would be good to take just niacinamide also as a trial for histadelia. Both nicotinic acid (flushing niacin) and folic acid raise histamine levels.

[stablemind]

I'm not sure what the explanation is but you might look up the symptoms for undermethylation / histadelia. One symptom is a racing mind. This type can have a mind that goes a million miles a minute and they have difficulty turning off when it is time to fall asleep. They can also be light sleepers who can't sleep late in the morning. They can be prone to headaches.

There are a number of symptoms that you can find on different websites and you should not match all of them; if you have about 5 of them then you might have a problem with undermethylation.

Histadelics are the only one I know of that can have some type of problem with a B complex or even some multivitamins because of the B vitamins in them; it's usually the folic acid that can cause a problem especially in high doses. Of course there are other mutations besides MTHFr so it is possible you could be reacting to something else besides too much regular (non-methyl) folate.

But if one B complex helps you then you may have some B vitamin deficiency that you should correct. I think B complexes have limited uses because they make it impossible for you to fine tune your dose of each of the B vitamins. One size does not fit all when it comes to nutrition. You might try taking most of those B vitamins as separate supplements, avoiding folic acid altogether. If that works then you might try a methyl folate supplement.

Undermethylators will usually flush from only about 50 mg of niacin. A low dose of niacin, like in the Jarrow one, should be fine; but it would be good to take just niacinamide also as a trial for histadelia. Both nicotinic acid (flushing niacin) and folic acid raise histamine levels.

Well I take B complexes daily and I don't flush. It has about 25mg of niacin and 100mg of niacinamide.... is it because I'm not taking it separately?

[jazzcat]

Yes, b/c you take two 25 mg doses at separate times.

Taking 2 B complex caps together would not be as accurate as one 50 mg of niacin only. The folic acid dose could skew results. That test needs to be done with niacin only and it helps to do it first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. Food slows the absorption of B3 and may effect results.

[stablemind]

Yes, b/c you take two 25 mg doses at separate times.

Taking 2 B complex caps together would not be as accurate as one 50 mg of niacin only. The folic acid dose could skew results. That test needs to be done with niacin only and it helps to do it first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. Food slows the absorption of B3 and may effect results.

Thanks a lot, I will try that later today. I also seem to have a very bad reaction to alcohol... coincidence? My face flushes like crazy compared to other asians, and I cannot sleep after drinking 1 shot. Even after flushing it down with lots of water and waiting a couple of hours... and if I do sleep its extremely light, and i feel really crappy the next day. Like I get this dirty, uncomfortable feeling of not sleeping well... happens every time.

Edited by racingmind, 25 February 2010 - 06:44 PM.

[jazzcat]

I know that molybdenum helps the body metabolize alcohol (or acetaldehyde a metabolite of alcohol). This article seems to indicate it might help with the red face reaction. I think some people's genetics might explain why they need to supplement MO.

http://www.britannic...0028/Molybdenum

I've read that some histidelics may have sensitivities to sulfites. Molybdenum helps with sulfite sensitivity; actually MO helps the body metabolize sulfur.

So if you were to try either SAMe or methionine and continued to take them you might need MO (or more MO) to help your body metabolize the added sulfur from either of those sulfur containing amino acids.

[mail1234]

just found this thread as I think I'm having similar problems to you. Whenever I take a multivitamin I get a kind of zoned out, drunk feeling which makes me unresponsive and not able to think clearly. I never associated this with a multivit until now but it makes sense. Also, I bought some superstrength B12 pills last week (ironically to counter the memory/concentration issues I get from multivits maybe) and after taking one I felt unbelievably out of it, so much so that it actually scared me.

Done a bit of research and it seems to be likely to be due to high histamine levels as someone pointed out before. I also have GI problems (including gas + growling stomach nonstop) but am not sure if this is related or not.

[Atropy]

I know what you're talking about, b/c I've that problem w/ some B-complex supplements, too. The problem turned out not to be the amounts of each vitamin, but the ratio of niacinamide to the other B vitamins. Niacinamide promotes the formation of the relaxing neurotransmitter, serotonin. An ideal ratio of niacinamide to vits. B's 1,2, & 6 (approximately equal amounts of those) is ~20:1. That's about how it's used in some basic cellular processes. No supplements provide that, but a few go in the direction of more niacinamide. If you stay under 10mg/day of B's 1,2, & 6, between 100 - 200 mg. of niacinamide, and less Vit B 5 (pantothenic acid or pantothenates) than niacinamide, you should find your problem is solved. Vitamin B 5 is very nervous-making if you take more than 100 mg/ day for many people.

The only other issue that might be affecting you if correcting the ratio doesn't work, is that you are taking a yeast-bound B-complex supplement and are allergic to yeast. For some people, part of an allergic reaction can be increased cortisol, which sometimes masks other allergic symptoms so all the person experiences is the jittery excess cortisol feeling. Most "food-based" supplements, however healthy they might be for many people, are contraindicated for those allergic to yeast. Jarrow "B-Right" is a pretty good 2-aday, fairly balanced B-complex w/o yeast, but I would still add an extra 200 mg of niacinamide in the evening. Source Naturals "Coenzymate™ B Complex" sublinguals is similar. The Jarrow uses gelatin capsules, while the Source Naturals is vegetarian.

Believe it or not, the two I mentioned above are the best non-yeast B-complex supplements I've found, even though their ratio is more like 4:1. Everything else is worse.

If the yeast or food allergies isn't a problem, there is Garden of Life "Vitamin Code Raw B-Complex" w/ a 4.5:1 ratio (very slightly better). It has a whole bunch of enzymes, foods, probiotics and yeast included--great for those w/o allergic tendencies, but I would never recommend it to anyone who's ever experienced a food allergy since it includes so many potential allergens.

I hope this is helpful.

Is anyone else not able to fall asleep if they take an extra B complex pill? When I take one pill, all my adhd symptoms are reduced, my migraines are nearly eliminated, and all my energy is restored. I can't describe how miraculous Jarrow's Optimized B formula is to me... could this be due to my histamine levels/ under-methylation?

B complexes have literally changed my life... every aspect has improved dramatically. I can form words in my head, follow a train of thought, go to bed on time, and wake up feeling refreshed, have no migraines when getting up from bed, etc.... when I take B complexes... no sleeping aid supplement has ever worked (like melatonin), and after supplementing myself with B complex, I can feel the effects of other supplements.

http://www.addforums...ead.php?t=73271

What does it mean if I take a b-complex (in this case Jarrow's B-right) and I feel really tired?

What exactly is causing it?How can I avoid the sleepiness?

Edited by Atropy, 18 June 2013 - 05:32 AM.