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Dopamine Stimulation


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#1 Pragmatist90

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 02:27 PM


Hey guys,

After some due research on dopamine precursors, yesterday I bought a bottle of L-Tyrosine from Vitamin Shoppe. After taking 1000 mg, I was slightly/moderately impressed with its results. Since I was essentially looking for a semi-amphetamine like feeling, I figured more dopamine would assist with greater motivation and concentration, which are prime for me. I have mild - moderate ADD with dysthymia, which I am currently taking 50 mg of sertraline for. With the tyrosine I noticed more subtle effects of greater interest and focus on topics, slightly similar to what I would get on Adderall. I was never prescribed Adderall, but I have taken it recreationally and it is my drug of choice (unfortunately ?). Next week when I see my GP I will consider potentially going on a low dose of a psycho-stimulant to help ease concentration issues associated with the chronic depression (which is gradually going away with the Zoloft) and my ever present ADD which is moderate.

I guess what I am asking for is of any other known dopamine related supplements that help foster motivation and concentration that would maybe be suitable enough for me to potentially avoid getting a prescription for a medication like Ritalin or Vyvanse. I understand that Phenelthylamine, the precursor to L-Tyrosine, is also used to stimulate more dopamine/norepepherine production. Are Tyrosine and Phenelthylamine effective when combined ? ?

Lastly, of the prescription stimulants, which would you guys say is most effective with minimal side effects (excluding Adderall) ? Is a low dose of ritalin or vyvanse preferred by pertinent posters here ?

Thanks

#2 khakiman

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 02:56 PM

i currently take 2.5mg selegiline every other day w/ 100-200mg of l-dopa as needed for a great motivational boost. the deprenyl (selegiline) works for depression and the l-dopa gets me motivated (usually the next day or 2 after i take it). I would rather just have adderal for motivation but my insurance just expired.

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#3 pycnogenol

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 03:07 PM

For motivation, I take one (1) mucuna pruriens cap up to 3 times per week maximum with good results.

This is the product I take: a supercritical extract of mucuna pruriens

http://www.tattvashe.....s,/Detail.bok


(I cycle mucuna pruriens - usually 2 months on and 1 month off)

Edited by pycnogenol, 06 April 2010 - 03:15 PM.


#4 Pragmatist90

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 04:48 PM

So L-Dopa is more potent than L-Tyrosine at stimulating motivation ? This would make sense as L-Dopa is just one step away from Dopamine, but I was reading from some sources that L-Dopa is really just for Parkinsons disease and can induce sleepiness and inattentiveness due to a rate limiting chemical reaction step or something chemistry related which I don't understand.

Can you take L-Dopa and L-Tyrosine together, or is that a dopamine overload ?

Thanks

#5 khakiman

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 04:57 PM

its not dopamine overload until you get sick sweaty and irritable, IMO

#6 chrono

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 10:44 PM

The combination of deprenyl and L-DOPA can lead to dopamine overload. See this article for a mention of some dangers. More discussion of toxicity of L-DOPA combined with deprenyl in this thread; note the usage of the word "mortality" in relation to L-DOPA. Even with the inconclusiveness resulting from dosages and Parkinson's factors, this is a riskier combo than necessary for this purpose, and probably shouldn't be recommended.

Beyond this concern, L-DOPA seems to downregulate dopamine receptors. And it's been shown to be neurotoxic in animal studies, though there's some debate as to whether this applies to humans who don't have PD. For my money, it seems too risky for anything but very occasional use.


I'm researching the same question at the moment. For me, 10mg of adderall works wonders, but is undesirable for several reasons, at least for constant usage. Deprenyl seems to be the most promising long-term solution. Also look into sulbutiamine and pramipexole. Transdermal nicotine also helps (assuming you don't smoke), though vasoconstriction might be a concern.

There are several smaller options that might be worth looking into, as well. Supplementing with manganese, or other dopamine cofactors, could have a small impact on its production. Lots of reading to do at the SAS forum, as dopamine is one of the main targets in that discussion as well.


its not dopamine overload until you get sick sweaty and irritable, IMO

Can you explain why you think dopamine overload will necessarily manifest with these symptoms?

Edited by chrono, 06 April 2010 - 10:49 PM.


#7 NDM

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 01:28 AM

I remember reading several months ago that singing increases dopamine...(it was some media coverage of a refereed paper).
The trick is to sing while at the same time respecting your neighbours.
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#8 shifter

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 02:12 AM

L-DOPA is totally unnecessary and dangerous for young adults to take. This is given to people in their old age who's dopamine receptors have almost been completely obliterated. Keep in mind, its still toxic for them to take too (but far less so than us), but if they want any sort of quality of life (well whats left of their life), its the lesser of two evils to take it.

Also, it can really change your behaviour. If you are prone to addiction, chances are you will succumb to it, be it gambling, shopping, hookers, etc (yep, many a divorce filed thanks to this drug (in combo with selegiline) ;)







I remember reading several months ago that singing increases dopamine...(it was some media coverage of a refereed paper).
The trick is to sing while at the same time respecting your neighbours.



#9 alpha2A

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 02:55 AM

Catecholamines have a tendency to form dopaquinones, which are oxidising agents that oxidise sensitive targets that they come into contact with. This is perfectly normal, and inevitable. It's when neurotransmitter concentrations become high enough to overwhelm antioxidant capacity that damage results.

Dopamine (DA) reuptake inhibitors (DRIs) like cocaine and methylphenidate (Ritalin) do not elevate extracellular DA levels sufficiently to give rise to oxidative stress severe enough to cause structural damage, even in high doses. With amphetamines, on the other hand, it's easy to achieve neurotoxicity, and direct evidence of such toxicity can be readily observed in experiments on various species of animals. Studies with radiotracers in long-term recreational users of methamphetamine indicate that similar toxicity occurs in humans, and remains significant for at least several years after cessation of the drug. Furthermore, a syndrome indicating dopaminergic deficits can persist in such users for a long time after withdrawal. The relevance of these findings to the therapeutic use of amphetamines, however, remains to be determined, as the doses are usually lower and there may be unnaturally low extracellular dopamine concentrations of begin with. Considering the similarity in the pharmacological actions of phenylethylamine (PEA) and the amphetamines (alpha-methyl PEAs), it seems logical to hypothesise that long-term use of PEA in high doses would give rise to similar neurotoxicity. My own personal experience is consistent with this hypothesis - for more detail, see my article at http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry397521.

High doses of L-dopa are likely to produce significant oxidative stress, and in animal models, the co-administration of L-dopa exacerbates toxicity from amphetamines. The use of L-dopa at more modest doses seems unlikely to be a cause for serious concern, but L-dopa is a very imprecise tool to elevate synaptic DA concentrations, which is the desired goal. In Parkinson's disease, where there is a serious loss of DAergic nerve cells, L-dopa is often necessary, but in the absence of such loss, tyrosine, stimulants and monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) are likely to produce the desired results with fewer side effects. L-dopa has side effects that are not seen with stimulants, and yet does not produce as significant elevations of synaptic DA, except at excessive doses. It is for these reasons that L-dopa is rarely abused, although reports of such phenomena exist. Even doses of L-dopa that produce irritating side effects, including nausea and vomiting, are not necessarily sufficient to achieve the desired effect on the CNS. In the treatment of Parkinson's disease, L-dopa is almost always given with a peripheral inhibitor of aromatic amino acid decarboxylase (AADC) in order to allow sufficient CNS concentrations of the drug to be achieved with acceptable side effects. Even with an AADC inhibitor such as carbidopa or benserazide, the peripheral side effects can be troublesome enough to justify the addition of the peripheral DA antagonist domperidone, or an inhibitor of catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT), usually entacapone, although the alternative COMT-inhibitor tolcapone is sometimes used due to its ability to cross the blood-brain barrier, despite potential hepatoxicity,

Combinations of two or more classes of dopaminergic agents can be used for enhanced effect or for similar effects but a superior side-effect profile. Depending on the desired goals, non-dopaminergic treatments can be added as well, and in the case of ADHD, especially the alpha2-adrenergic agonist guanfacine deserves mention. In the case of depression, there are so many options that an essay would be required for any useful discussion, and books have been written on the topic. I recommend starting with the Good Drug Guide, found on-line at http://www.biopsychiatry.com/

To summarise, an incomplete list of options includes:
1. phenylalanine
2. tyrosine
3. L-dopa
4. selegiline or rasagiline
5. methylphenidate
6. amphetamines

A reasonable treatment algorithm may be:
a) 1, 2 or 4
b) any combinations of 1, 2 and 4
c) 5
d) 5 and a)
e) 5 and b)
f) 6
g) combinations of 6 with 5, 4, and/or 2
h) revisit d), e) and g), replacing 2 with 3.

Personally, I would be liberal in my titration of 5, but restrictive with 6. There are also several options that haven't been covered, including the following and their combinations with each other and with the above:
7. pramipexole or ropinirole
8. entacapone
9. sulpiride (from 100 mg up to 600 mg/day divided into two or three doses), or amisulpride (25 mg to about 300 mg/day as a single dose). Higher doses will be counterproductive due to blockade of postsynaptic DA receptors.
10. flupenthixol (up to 2 mg/day)
11. buprenorphine up to at least 4 mg - for maximum blockade of the kappa-opioid receptor.
12. memantine (up to 40 mg)
13. amantadine (up to 300 mg)

And so on - it's already too complex to describe the above options and their sensible combinations fully. Certain combinations are particularly useless, while certain others are especially sensible. For example, 2 is superfluous with 3, and 9 is great with 5, but not so much with 6. Furthermore, there are a number of fine points, for instance: too high doses of 5 will be counterproductive with 6, due to their mechanisms of action.

Regarding the addition of selegiline to sertraline, beware of possible hyperserotonergic symptoms such as fever, especially at higher doses. Long term selegiline at 10 mg produces significant MAO-A inhibition.

#10 Pragmatist90

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 03:13 AM

For now I'll just try the Tyrosine and keep it going with the sertraline. Next week I'm visiting the GP and I'll probably opt for wellbutrin, which I know has some beneficial effects for ADD. I think I'll just put this supplement mayhem to rest for now...

#11 Pragmatist90

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 03:18 AM

Actually, do you guys know of any retail stores that would sell Phenethylamine ? It seems via research that this is most similar to the amphetamine class. Any recommendable web sites, if not retailers, that offer this product ?

Thanks

#12 425runner

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 03:28 AM

Try www.smartpowders.com Last time I bought it twas $9.99 for 120 capsules.


Actually, do you guys know of any retail stores that would sell Phenethylamine ? It seems via research that this is most similar to the amphetamine class. Any recommendable web sites, if not retailers, that offer this product ?

Thanks



#13 mwasnidge

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 03:28 AM

Actually, do you guys know of any retail stores that would sell Phenethylamine ? It seems via research that this is most similar to the amphetamine class. Any recommendable web sites, if not retailers, that offer this product ?

Thanks


You can get a sample of Neurvana. I ordered the sample, but haven't gotten around to trying it. Took about a month to arrive too. Also, Relentless Improvement sell the same product.

#14 shifter

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 03:33 AM

http://www.cognitive...0-capsules.html

This stuff has worked very well for me. I would not use this to get through a boring day at work or get some jobs done around the house however. Those sorts of things you do NOT want to associate with euphoria and there are other things that give you the motivational boost in a more subtle way for things like that. I take it if I am going out with friends etc to have or enhance a good time.

Just make sure you eat first before you take it (your mouth will get so dry you cant eat properly) ;)




Actually, do you guys know of any retail stores that would sell Phenethylamine ? It seems via research that this is most similar to the amphetamine class. Any recommendable web sites, if not retailers, that offer this product ?

Thanks



#15 Pragmatist90

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 04:03 AM

So you're saying PEA is pretty much the closest amphetamine-like supplement ? I would need it mainly for studying, but sometimes for social events too.

#16 alpha2A

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 04:04 AM

L-DOPA is totally unnecessary and dangerous for young adults to take. This is given to people in their old age


No, it's given specifically to people with Parkinson's disease, regardless of age.  Some are unfortunate enough to develop the disease while still young.

who's dopamine receptors have almost been completely obliterated.


It's actually the dopamine neurons that have been lost, not the receptors.  Most dopamine receptors are in fact located on cells that are not themselves dopaminergic.

Keep in mind, its still toxic for them to take too (but far less so than us), .


I'm not aware of any data supporting your hypothesis that L-dopa is more toxic to the young.

Also, it can really change your behaviour. If you are prone to addiction, chances are you will succumb to it, be it gambling, shopping, hookers, etc (yep, many a divorce filed thanks to this drug (in combo with selegiline) ;)


This phenomenon is typically observed in people taking the dopamine direct agonists pramipexole and ropinirole, and is much less common with L-dopa.  It's a spectacular example of an anti-anhedonic effect, which is a good rationale for the use of these agents in depression.



The combination of deprenyl and L-DOPA can lead to dopamine overload.


Yes, if an excessive dose of L-dopa is used.  When selegiline is added to an L-dopa regimen, the dose of the latter should typically be lowered.

See this article for a mention of some dangers. More discussion of toxicity of L-DOPA combined with deprenyl in this thread; note the usage of the word "mortality" in relation to L-DOPA. Even with the inconclusiveness resulting from dosages and Parkinson's factors, this is a riskier combo than necessary for this purpose, and probably shouldn't be recommended.


There has been much controversy about a single, prematurely terminated study that suggested increased mortality from the combination of L-deprenyl and L-dopa.  Most evidence suggests that L-deprenyl is in fact beneficial with regard to life span and disease progression, with or without L-dopa.  See for example the DATATOP stiudy.  It's not a good idea to throw away a body of evidence in favour of L-deprenyl only for the occurrence of a single study suggesting a detrimental effect.  See http://ceri.com/depren.htm.  My current best hypothesis for explaining the anomalous finding of increased mortality involves a bad batch of selegiline, containing an unidentified toxic chemical contaminant or a pathogen, arising from temporary issues in the production process.  In any case, those who have doubts as to the safety of selegiline or its amphetamine metabolites can always go for rasagiline instead.

Beyond this concern, L-DOPA seems to downregulate dopamine receptors.


Increased stimulation of dopamine receptors gives rise to compensatory downregulation.  This phenomenon is by no means unique to L-dopa, but occurs with any dopamine elevating treatment, such as cocaine.  My article at http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=396900 attempts to explain the phenomenon of dopaminergic downregulation, which seems to be mediated in part by kappa opioid receptors (KORs).  The KOR antagonist buprenorphine is therefore a particuarly interesting option for dopamine augmentation, on its own or in combination with other agents.

its not dopamine overload until you get sick sweaty and irritable, IMO

Can you explain why you think dopamine overload will necessarily manifest with these symptoms?

Manic and obsessive-compulsive behaviours as well as paranoia and psychosis are some symptoms of excess central dopaminergic function.  Nausea is an example of peripheral dopamine excess, and is more often seen with L-dopa and dopamine direct agonists rather than with MAO-B inhibitors and stimulants.
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#17 Logan

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 05:18 AM

Zoloft is a good drug, better and cleaner than most SSRIs IMO.

How long have you been taking Zoloft? You may want to consider going up to 100 mg and see how you feel. After this, you might not feel the need to supplement anything to help with ADD.

You may have mentioned this already, sorry if you did, but are you taking fish oil? I found that I felt and functioned considerably better after adding a daily dose of 3 or 4 grams of fish oil to my regimen while I was taking Zoloft.

I would give Zoloft more time and maybe increase the dose to 100 mg before thinking about using Adderall, Ritalin, Vyvanse, or Provigil.

Also, If you are not exercising regularly you should think about starting soon. I found that moderate to intense exercise helps me to feel more calm and focused. It also increases dopamine levels.

Edited by morganator, 07 April 2010 - 05:26 AM.


#18 chrono

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 05:47 AM

Keep in mind, its still toxic for them to take too (but far less so than us), .


I'm not aware of any data supporting your hypothesis that L-dopa is more toxic to the young.


Indeed, there's very little research to suggest that it's toxic at all. PMID 18781678, 9633686, 10554050, and 15675725 state that L-DOPA causes oxidative damage in vitro, but hasn't been shown to do the same in animal studies or clinical practice. There is some suggestion that it may serve a protective function to remaining neurons in PD. However, lack of comprehensiveness in these examinations is mentioned several times. 15372588 cites motor problems as an adverse effect of current concern.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that there are other agents available which do not have this possibility attached, especially the dangers when combined with deprenyl, and the inadvisability of recommending this without serious caveats. The thread I linked to provides a good analysis of the concerns about the mortality study, and posits that L-DOPA was in fact the agent to blame (perhaps in excess dosage, as you said).


I've begun some more serious reading into dopamine neurochemistry in the past few days, and your post above and the one in the Piracetam Non-Responders thread are two of the most useful I've come across anywhere. I'm attempting to find more options for treading ADD, which manifests primarily in severe motivational difficulty and pronounced inability to perform tasks which are not very complex and/or novel (I made a very detailed post or two describing my specific symptoms in the Pramipexole thread at M&M). My reactions to most psychoactives seem significantly similar to yours; adderall is the only agent so far which affords motivation, but does so amazingly well.

I'm looking for other medications (or combinations) which might affect motivation, but not alter the more delicate aspects of headspace/thought processes the way amphetamine can (and without stimulating and neurotoxic effects, hopefully). I have so much reading to do (what's new?), but I wonder if I could prevail upon you to throw out a few more ideas to help me focus in a bit:

What targets and medications are most selective and efficacious for increasing motivation? (D1/D2?) To what extent have you found motivation ("effort-based decision making") decoupled from other indicators of ADD?

Can you suggest any more-specific combinations of agents appropriate for ADD? What are your thoughts about combining A2A agents with the non-psychostim dopaminergics?

What are the guidelines to consider in general when combining these medications—what does "too much dopamine" look like? How many of these agents can one use before problems arise? What should be the aim in selecting combinations which are useful?

Regarding downregulation and tolerance: how should this be approached when designing combos/cycles for therapeutic action? How do consant-use meds like pramipexole and deprenyl interplay with shorter-acting/more tolerance-producing ones? Is the type of therapeutic use we're discussing sustainable, or is some kind of cycle more realistic with regard to receptor regulation?

Also, since my reactions are so similar to your, I'm curious what you think of sulbutiamine?



Sorry if these questions are unmanageably broad, but your writing on the subject is unusually incisive, and I would appreciate any leg-up you could help me with ;)

#19 Pragmatist90

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 06:04 AM

morganator,

I've been taking sertraline for just 1 week. However, I had switched to sertraline from 20 mg citalopram that I had been taking for almost 4 weeks (due to fatigue). For 4 days I have been on 50 mg of sertraline, the 3 days before that it was 25 mg. I do agree with you that it should take a little longer to kick in, but should I feel the beneficial effects sooner, since I already took citalopram for a month ? So far I am noting minor improvements, but still a long way to go...

I am seeing the GP Monday and I may opt to combine the sertraline with bupropion if my fatigue isn't fully recovered (its getting better).

#20 medievil

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 10:58 AM

Regarding downregulation and tolerance: how should this be approached when designing combos/cycles for therapeutic action? How do consant-use meds like pramipexole and deprenyl interplay with shorter-acting/more tolerance-producing ones? Is the type of therapeutic use we're discussing sustainable, or is some kind of cycle more realistic with regard to receptor regulation?

I highly suggest the inclusion of memantine with every dopaminergic, since NMDA antagonists have been shown to upregulate dopamine in the striatum.

That said, there's lots of research showing glutamate is involved in ADHD, and indeed memantine was found effective for ADHD.

#21 medievil

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 11:16 AM

Deprenyl seems to be the most promising long-term solution.

Deprenyl has a U dose response curve, wich means that that in high doses it can actually do the opposite as in low doses and actually increase mortality.[1] [2] How de we know the doses used to inhibit MAOB wont have a adverse effect?

1. Gallagher, I. M., Clow, A., and Glover, V. (1998). Long-term administration of (-)-deprenyl increases mortality in male Wistar rats. J Neural Transm Suppl 52, 315-20.[Abstract]
2. Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2006 May;1067:375-82. The necessity of having a proper dose of (-)deprenyl (D) to prolong the life spans of rats explains discrepancies among different studies in the past.[Abstract]

Edited by medievil, 07 April 2010 - 11:16 AM.


#22 Yearningforyears

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 06:03 PM

Siberian ginseng / schisandra. I can really feel the dopamine =)
Really good stuff. Mixes very good with DMAE (at least so far...)

#23 Pragmatist90

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 03:31 PM

I wanted to mention a separate note that I feel that after taking sertraline for almost 1.5 weeks, I feel that my memory has worsened, both short and long-term. Is this a known side effect of zoloft ? I am currently taking 50 mg, and am seeing my GP in a few days. If this continues, should I seek out to combine this with another medication ? What is the best route to counter this brain sluggishness ? My moods are lifting, but I need to stay sharp !

Thanks

#24 chrono

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 07:16 PM

If this continues, should I seek out to combine this with another medication ? What is the best route to counter this brain sluggishness ? My moods are lifting, but I need to stay sharp !

SSRIs are a class of medication with many, many possible emotional/cognitive effects. Some people seem to feel they improve their quality of life, but it's a class of drug you couldn't pay me to take again. That said, they can take up to 3-4 weeks to level off.

If a script for adderall or ritalin is an option for you, it might counteract this symptom. To answer your original question, adderall (or vynase, preferably) has a greater effect on dopamine, so is probably a better bet for stronger motivation and focus. Ritalin is a little gentler, and isn't neurotoxic (though it's still being debated whether amphetamines are neurotoxic at therapeutic doses).

#25 Pragmatist90

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 09:40 PM

I figure I will definitely stay on sertraline and maybe up the dose to 75 mg, as my anxiety/depression is improving. I am seeing my GP tomorrow, so I will ponder my options for an additional medication. I am thinking either Bupropion to counter the fatigue and maybe help with attention, or a stimulant like vyvanse for those matters. However, as I understand you need to visit a psychiatrist to get a prescription for this kind of an analeptic. Are ADHD/ADD meds sometimes prescribed for aforementioned SSRI side-effects, even if the person doesn't have ADD ? I do have a minor level of ADD, so a med of this kind would benefit me in several ways.

#26 Logan

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 09:55 PM

I would give sertraline another 3 to 4 weeks before you add anything else to your regimen. Sometimes it takes up to 6 to 8 weeks and dosage tweeking to get past side effects and realize full benefits. You really need to try to be patient with this medication. Also, you may want to consider asking your doctor to contact your insurance company and ask them to cover brand name Zoloft. I personally felt better and had less side effects on Zoloft.

#27 Pragmatist90

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 10:27 PM

It can still take 3-4 weeks despite the fact that I had been on an SSRI (citalopram) prior to this for 4 weeks ?

#28 nito

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 01:22 AM

i was prescribed zoloft although my councilor disapproved of anti depressants. She told me they had too many side effects and that to withdraw from them were hard. As a result i kept the pack and never used them, and they have now expired in use by date. Instead i have tried 5htp, stw(kira, perika) , rhodiola etc you name it and i have not really beaten my depression yet. Wondering whether i actually should have tried the Zoloft 50 mg i was prescribed. :/

#29 chrono

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 01:39 AM

i was prescribed zoloft although my councilor disapproved of anti depressants. She told me they had too many side effects and that to withdraw from them were hard. As a result i kept the pack and never used them, and they have now expired in use by date. Instead i have tried 5htp, stw(kira, perika) , rhodiola etc you name it and i have not really beaten my depression yet. Wondering whether i actually should have tried the Zoloft 50 mg i was prescribed. :/


These molecules don't go bad easily; they're almost certainly still ok to take. She was right about the withdrawing part, though. One of the reasons I hated SSRIs so much, along with headaches and weirdness if I happened to forget a day.

So, if you decide to try it out, make sure you have enough for a month or two, and if you can't get more, taper off them.

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#30 PhDStudent

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 02:06 AM

does tyrosine have to be cycled too? does it downregulate dopamine receptors?




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