7 replies to this topic

[csrpj]

so here's the deal. all choline sources i've tried (citrate, bitartrate, alpha, and cdp) work towards alleviating/removing racetam side-effects. but, cdp is the only source which has a noticeable effects on my consciousness in it of itself. does this imply my brain responds better to it? are there positive long-term results from taking it than are better than long0term results from other sources b/c of the noticeable effect at first? ...it definitely sounds plausible b/c i feel it, but at the same time i realize some supplements cumulatively build. cdp is just so expensive... i'm trying to figure out if it is truly worth it.

[LabRat84]

so here's the deal. all choline sources i've tried (citrate, bitartrate, alpha, and cdp) work towards alleviating/removing racetam side-effects. but, cdp is the only source which has a noticeable effects on my consciousness in it of itself. does this imply my brain responds better to it? are there positive long-term results from taking it than are better than long0term results from other sources b/c of the noticeable effect at first? ...it definitely sounds plausible b/c i feel it, but at the same time i realize some supplements cumulatively build. cdp is just so expensive... i'm trying to figure out if it is truly worth it.

Your brain has two main uses for choline: 1) As a precursor to acetylcholine and 2) As a component in its cell membranes, as phosphatidyl choline. CDP choline is a closer precursor to phosphatidyl choline. Apparently the brain can produce acetylcholine from it too, but it's just as likely to end up as phosphatidyl choline. http://en.wikipedia....iki/CDP_choline
Choline citrate and bitartate are just choline bound to amino acid. AlphaGPC is a choline derivative that easily crosses the blood-brain barrier and so delivers choline to the brain more effectively (I'm not sure of the exact biochemical pathway). Then it's converted to acetylcholine.

It's probably use (2) that provides the nootropic effects - you're altering the cell membrane components.

[csrpj]

so here's the deal. all choline sources i've tried (citrate, bitartrate, alpha, and cdp) work towards alleviating/removing racetam side-effects. but, cdp is the only source which has a noticeable effects on my consciousness in it of itself. does this imply my brain responds better to it? are there positive long-term results from taking it than are better than long0term results from other sources b/c of the noticeable effect at first? ...it definitely sounds plausible b/c i feel it, but at the same time i realize some supplements cumulatively build. cdp is just so expensive... i'm trying to figure out if it is truly worth it.

Your brain has two main uses for choline: 1) As a precursor to acetylcholine and 2) As a component in its cell membranes, as phosphatidyl choline. CDP choline is a closer precursor to phosphatidyl choline. Apparently the brain can produce acetylcholine from it too, but it's just as likely to end up as phosphatidyl choline. http://en.wikipedia....iki/CDP_choline
Choline citrate and bitartate are just choline bound to amino acid. AlphaGPC is a choline derivative that easily crosses the blood-brain barrier and so delivers choline to the brain more effectively (I'm not sure of the exact biochemical pathway). Then it's converted to acetylcholine.

It's probably use (2) that provides the nootropic effects - you're altering the cell membrane components.

so would cdp-choline be similar to taking phosphatidylcholine or phosphatidylcholine + other choline source?

[LabRat84]

so here's the deal. all choline sources i've tried (citrate, bitartrate, alpha, and cdp) work towards alleviating/removing racetam side-effects. but, cdp is the only source which has a noticeable effects on my consciousness in it of itself. does this imply my brain responds better to it? are there positive long-term results from taking it than are better than long0term results from other sources b/c of the noticeable effect at first? ...it definitely sounds plausible b/c i feel it, but at the same time i realize some supplements cumulatively build. cdp is just so expensive... i'm trying to figure out if it is truly worth it.

Your brain has two main uses for choline: 1) As a precursor to acetylcholine and 2) As a component in its cell membranes, as phosphatidyl choline. CDP choline is a closer precursor to phosphatidyl choline. Apparently the brain can produce acetylcholine from it too, but it's just as likely to end up as phosphatidyl choline. http://en.wikipedia....iki/CDP_choline
Choline citrate and bitartate are just choline bound to amino acid. AlphaGPC is a choline derivative that easily crosses the blood-brain barrier and so delivers choline to the brain more effectively (I'm not sure of the exact biochemical pathway). Then it's converted to acetylcholine.

It's probably use (2) that provides the nootropic effects - you're altering the cell membrane components.

so would cdp-choline be similar to taking phosphatidylcholine or phosphatidylcholine + other choline source?

That's my guess - like phosphatidyl choline + another choline source. I'm not sure if the brain uses the choline from phosphatidyl choline to generate acetylcholine under normal circumstances. Since it's effective in alleviating racetam headaches and fogginess (and producing lucid dreams), CDP-choline obviously acts as a "plain choline" source too.

[chrono]

I don't think the subjective effect necessarily correlates to its long-term benefit. CDP Choline and Alpha-GPC both have some impressive implications for long-term brain health. Sorry, too tired to spend any more time on pubmed today. But these are probably easier anyway:

Delano Report: What to Feed Your Head. Brief overview of the cognitive and neurological benefits of CDP/GPC. Also a simple comparison of their mechanisms.

CDP Choline increases ACh and dopamine receptor densities.

[csrpj]

what's meant by receptor density? is that just the density of receptor sites, or something else?

do people here agree with the conclusion in that first article, that " if you’re trying to decide between CDP-choline and alpha GPC as a cognitive enhancer, my advice is: choose either. They do pretty much the same thing and I’m not convinced that either one is superior to the other"?

[LabRat84]

what's meant by receptor density? is that just the density of receptor sites, or something else?

do people here agree with the conclusion in that first article, that " if you’re trying to decide between CDP-choline and alpha GPC as a cognitive enhancer, my advice is: choose either. They do pretty much the same thing and I’m not convinced that either one is superior to the other"?

Technically, it's the number of receptors per square cm of membrane surface area - more receptors per cell.
I've been using alpha GPC mainly as a choline source for racetams. I have some CDP choline I will be starting soon.

Chrono, that' Delano article is great; the relationship is very clear now. It seems that the brain can indeed derive choline from its own membranes.

Edited by LabRat84, 20 April 2010 - 04:32 AM.

[chrono]

what's meant by receptor density? is that just the density of receptor sites, or something else?

Greater receptor density generally means more opportunity for a neurotransmitter to work (I think). For instance, see these contrasting impacts of dopamine D2 density:

Brain Dopamine Receptor Density Correlates With Social Status

Lower Dopamine Receptor Density Reduces Ability to Learn From Mistakes

do people here agree with the conclusion in that first article, that " if you’re trying to decide between CDP-choline and alpha GPC as a cognitive enhancer, my advice is: choose either. They do pretty much the same thing and I’m not convinced that either one is superior to the other"?

That seems to be the common consensus. CDP may have a few more studies to back it up, and I think there are more testimonies from people saying they can "feel" it. When I was deciding, I thought that GPC seemed to have a few extra effects (like upon dopamine density/release and growth hormone), with just about all of the same neurological benefits.

But I intend to do a better review when I run out of GPC. If I had enough money to order both in bulk (Cerebral Health has CDP, and CH, SP and True Protein have GPC) I would split my desired dose between the two.

Edited by chrono, 16 September 2010 - 08:22 PM.
formatting