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Healing the mind from DXM-induced psychosis


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#31 haha

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:58 PM

deja vu is apparently caused by a timing imbalance between the two hemispheres, This could be caused By DMX but it could also be shown to you through a positive effect of DMX. I favour the later as i believe the central executive is crippled in the general population, through a partial hemisphereoctomy type effect. Yes im nuts but if I knew you face to face I would back it up. That is why its probally really good that most nootropics arent readily effective as most people could not deal with reality.

I would start with one and use for three weeks before the other. Whether Huperzine is worth it in your case will depend on your utility of functional gains that may or may not accure

#32 wild2side

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 07:07 PM

Just wanted to add my own 2 cents to this topic, as it relates to me as well.

I also did some DXM when i was about 17, but not much, maybe 2 -3 times at the most. However, i did a LOT of ketamine and MDMA during that time. Like you OP, i also suffered brain damage, particularly with memory, decision making, and logical thought. This in turn made me very depressed, which probably also made my cognitive problems even more pronounced.

Anyways, after many years of self medicating myself back to normality with nootropics, it wasn't until i started talking about my problems with my doctor that i started to actually see some improvement. My doctor prescribed me Zoloft, which at first i refused to take as i did not think that the depression was the root of the problem, but rather a side effect. I dismissed the idea and basically continued to self medicate for another few months. There came a point where it seemed like i have tried every nootropic there is in a ton of different doses, in combo's and as stand alone, with no actual improvement (some minor improvements that would pretty much vanish after a couple of weeks of use).

I went back to my doctor and agreed to but put on Zoloft. I have been on Zoloft for 3 years now and i can tell you this with 100% confidence.. its the one thing that ACTUALLY helped.

I added to this 1,200mg of pure EPA a day, plus some Piracetam and CDP Choline, and its brought me back to normality as close as i could have ever hoped for. Of course im not 100%, and popping the amount of pills i pop everyday is probably causing some harm to the rest of my body (liver, kidneys, stomach lining) that may cause me do die prematurely, but at least i am happy and living my life to the fullest (quality over quantity).

I hope my battle and experience may guide you in the right direction, cause i too was very lost and thought i would never be back to normal. But i fought, struggled, and researched, and i prevailed.

Good luck to you.

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#33 Animal

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 07:23 PM

Sounds to me like drug induced depression that is being managed by zoloft rather then any cognitive dysfunction. SSRI's are certainly not nootropic.

#34 wild2side

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 11:33 PM

Sounds to me like drug induced depression that is being managed by zoloft rather then any cognitive dysfunction. SSRI's are certainly not nootropic.


Sure they are. Serotonin is well implicated with learning and memory.

#35 wild2side

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 11:37 PM

Anyways, im not here to sell Zoloft or any other SSRI, just sharing my experience. And what i think the OP should do is consult a few doctors. Self diagnosis and medicating often doesn't work.

#36 Spectre

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 12:41 AM

Anyways, im not here to sell Zoloft or any other SSRI, just sharing my experience. And what i think the OP should do is consult a few doctors. Self diagnosis and medicating often doesn't work.


Thanks for the feedback from everyone. I do realize that many people who "self-diagnose" end up with unsuspecting results that are often worse than better, but from the personal research that I've done on Piracetam I believe it will be a good move in taking it. I read in a few articles that it reverses the antagonism on the NMDA receptors caused by dissociates, and restores normal function to that area of the brain, which is my primary goal at the moment. My brain has been healing itself somewhat over time, but I think taking Piracetam will definitely help me out, and push me above and beyond..I won't be able to know until I try. The doctors that I have talked to seem to be less educated on the MOA of dissociative drugs than me, which honestly blows my mind. I would think someone who went to medical school would know a lot more about psychotropic drugs than myself, considering I'm 19 and self-educated..but our generation was raised completely different when it comes to information retrieval (at least in my opinion).

I plan on posting reports noting my progress on Piracetam. Here's a brief article supporting the use of Piracetam for the recovery of brain damage induced my dissociative drugs:

Appendix B: What to do if you think you may suffer from cognitive impairments resulting from dissociative use #

For those who fear that they have suffered cognitive impairment due to the use of DXM and/or other dissociatives, the first and most obvious step is to stop using. Many users seem to use these substances compulsively, in efforts to self-medicate and/or satisfy recreational or "spiritual" curiosities. I cannot presume to judge the validity of "spiritual" experiences, but I will note that one is taking considerable risks in using them as medication for depression. If you feel that you suffer from depression, consulting a psychotherapist, taking up the practices of meditation and/or hatha yoga, and any number of other disciplines would probably be a wiser and more effective form of self-medication (I will note that I also consider these options to be preferable, in many cases, to the use of prescription antidepressants).

In my opinion, the most promising treatment of dissociative related cognitive dysfunction may be piracetam (Nootropil). This substance has been used by millions of people worldwide, has demonstrated extremely low toxicity, and appears to positively affect both acetylcholine and NMDA receptors, both of which may be adversely affected by (over)use of dissociatives. Both ketamine and DXM users have reported that piracetam alleviates cognitive dysfunction associated with overuse of dissociatives. Interestingly, there are also anecdotal reports that regular use of piracetam greatly attenuates or even abolishes the psychoactive effects of dissociatives. This could be of aid in treatment programs dedicated to dissociative abusers, and I consider it a promising avenue of further research. Piracetam is widely available by mail order and currently not controlled in the United States.

Both DMAE (dimethylaminoethanol) and centrophenoxine (Lucidril) have been anecdotally reported to alleviate problems with concentration and memory associated with abuse of dissociatives. Interestingly enough, both have also been reported to synergize quite well with piracetam. Among other of their beneficial effects upon the body/brain, both DMAE and centrophenoxine (which metabolizes, in part, into DMAE) function as precursors for the neurotransmitter acetylcholine. They appear to function as mild stimulants/"cognitive enhancers".

Some individuals may find that DMAE or centrophenoxine make them overly "jittery" and persons with high blood pressure are advised to consult a doctor before using any of these substances. There have been conflicting results with different animal species as to whether DMAE extends lifespan or shortens it, but this is probably not of concern if it used on a limited basis for a few months.

Some heavy users of dissociatives have reported experiencing anhedonia similar to that experienced by cocaine or methamphetamine users upon the cessation of use. This may indicate a severely taxed dopamine system, and deprenyl supplementation may prove useful in enhancing dopamine production. Deprenyl has also been anecdotally reported to be useful in treating persistent visual abnormalities that sometimes arise as a result of abuse of dissociatives. Deprenyl has been extensively researched since the 1960s, is of relatively low toxicity unless absurd overdoses are taken, and is approved in the treatment of Parkinsonism.

A considerable amount of information on these substances can be obtained by visiting www.ceri.com and www.piracetam.com (a vendor). As I have stated above, these substances are of relatively low toxicity (particularly piracetam), but anyone suffering serious cognitive difficulties should be under a doctor's supervision, and these suggestions should be taken precisely as what they are: suggestions. Read this again: any individual intending to use any of these substances should seek a doctor's advice.

A few more suggestions for those fearing that they may suffer cognitive impairment: begin exercising intellect and memory again. Rather than compulsively ingesting drugs and expecting tremendous personal insights and the ability to function as you would when not on drugs, make a conscious effort to learn. Play logic/memory games, learn new skills, hobbies, etc. There is far more to the world than simply spending all of one's time "out of body" in "the Void" (which is not to imply that such experiences may not prove valuable, or at least entertaining, for some). Take care of yourself -- eat regularly, and take a good multivitamin/multimineral. I cannot emphasize strongly enough that those suffering from cognitive impairments should avoid the use of any "recreational" drugs, including alcohol and marijuana.



#37 tritium

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 06:00 AM

Anyone who attends a university can get this article for free, its easy to sign up to imminst, so can we please get....Phencyclidine-induced cognitive deficits in mice are ameliorated by subsequent subchronic administration of donepezil: Role of sigma-1 receptors

Ill reply to the rest later today


Phencyclidine-induced cognitive deficits in mice are ameliorated by subsequent subchronic administration of donepezil: Role of sigma-1 receptors

Shinsui Kunitachia, Yuko Fujitaa, Tamaki Ishimaa, Mami Kohnoa, Mao Horioa, Yuko Tanibuchia, c, Yukihiko Shirayamab, Masaomi Iyoc and Kenji Hashimotoa, Corresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author

aDivision of Clinical Neuroscience, Chiba University Center for Forensic Mental Health, 1-8-1 Inohana, Chiba 260-8670, Japan

bDepartment of Mental Health, Teikyo University Chiba Medical Center, Ichihara, Japan

cDepartment of Psychiatry, Chiba University Graduate School of Medicine, Chiba, Japan
Accepted 2 May 2009.
Available online 9 May 2009.

Abstract

This study was undertaken to examine the effects of two acetylcholinesterase inhibitors (donepezil and physostigmine) on cognitive deficits in mice after repeated administration of the NMDA receptor antagonist phencyclidine (PCP). In the novel object recognition test, PCP (10 mg/kg/day for 10 days)-induced cognitive deficits were significantly improved by subsequent subchronic (14 days) administration of donepezil (1.0 mg/kg/day), but not donepezil (0.1 mg/kg/day). Furthermore, the effect of donepezil (1.0 mg/kg/day) on PCP-induced cognitive deficits was significantly antagonized by co-administration of the selective sigma-1 receptor antagonist NE-100 (1.0 mg/kg/day), suggesting the role of sigma-1 receptors in the active mechanisms of donepezil. In contrast, PCP-induced cognitive deficits were not improved by subsequent subchronic (14 days) administration of physostigmine (0.25 mg/kg/day). Moreover, repeated administration of PCP significantly caused the reduction of sigma-1 receptors in the hippocampus. The present study suggests that agonistic activity of donepezil at sigma-1 receptors plays a role in the active mechanisms of donepezil on PCP-induced cognitive deficits in mice. Therefore, it is likely that donepezil would be potential therapeutic drugs for the treatment of the cognitive deficits in schizophrenia.

Keywords: Schizophrenia; Sigma-1 receptor; NMDA receptor; Phencyclidine; Cognition
Article Outline

1. Introduction
2. Results

2.1. Effects of donepezil and physostigmine on [3H](+)-pentazocine binding to mouse brain
2.2. Effects of donepezil on PCP-induced cognitive deficits in mice
2.3. Effects of repeated PCP administration on sigma-1 receptors in the mouse brain

3. Discussion
4. Experimental procedures

4.1. Animals
4.2. Drugs
4.3. Drug administration
4.4. Novel object recognition test (NORT)
4.5. [3H](+)-Pentazocine binding to sigma-1 receptors
4.6. Immunohistochemistry
4.7. Statistical analysis

Acknowledgements
References

1. Introduction
Cognitive deficits in patients with schizophrenia are core features of the illness, and predict vocational and social disabilities for patients ([Freedman, 2003], [Coyle and Tsai, 2004], [Green et al., 2004] and [Kurtz, 2005]). Multiple lines of evidence suggest that a dysfunction in glutamatergic neurotransmission via the N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) receptors might be involved in the pathophysiology of schizophrenia ([Javitt and Zukin, 1991], [Olney and Farber, 1995], [Coyle, 1996],[Krystal et al., 1999], [Hashimoto et al., 2003], [Hashimoto et al., 2004], [Hashimoto et al., 2005b] and [Mandillo et al., 2003]). NMDA receptor antagonists such as phencyclidine (PCP) are known to induce schizophrenia-like symptoms including cognitive deficits and negative symptoms in healthy subjects (Javitt and Zukin, 1991); consequently, PCP has been used widely in animal models of schizophrenia ([Javitt et al., 2004] and [Jentsch and Roth, 1999]; [Hashimoto et al., 2005a], [Hashimoto et al., 2007] and [Hashimoto et al., 2008]). We recently found that PCP-induced cognitive deficits in the novel object recognition test (NORT) could be significantly improved by subsequent subchronic (14 days) administration of clozapine, but not haloperidol. Our observations suggested that reversal of PCP-induced cognitive deficits as measured by NORT may be a potential animal model of atypical antipsychotic activity in relation to the amelioration of cognitive deficits in schizophrenia (Hashimoto et al., 2005a).

Accumulating evidence suggests that sigma-1 receptors play a role in the pathophysiology of psychiatric diseases such as schizophrenia, anxiety disorders, and depression as well as in the evolution of cognitive deficits associated with these conditions ([Maurice et al., 2001], [Su and Hayashi, 2003], [Hayashi and Su, 2004], [Guitart et al., 2004], [Bermack and Debonnel, 2005], [Hashimoto and Ishiwata, 2006] and Monnet and Maurice, 2006 F.P. Monnet and T. Maurice, The sigma-1 protein as a target for the non-genomic effects of neuro(active)steroids: molecular, physiological, and behavioral aspects, J. Pharmacol. Sci. 100 (2006), pp. 93–118. Full Text via CrossRef | View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (50)[Monnet and Maurice, 2006]). Recently, we reported that, in NORT, PCP-induced cognitive deficits could be significantly ameliorated by subsequent subchronic (14 days) administration of sigma-1 receptor agonists (fluvoxamine, SA4503, and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA)-sulfate), and that the effects of these sigma-1 receptor agonists were significantly antagonized by co-administration of the selective sigma-1 receptor antagonist NE-100 (Hashimoto et al., 2007). These findings suggest that sigma-1 receptor agonists would be potential therapeutic drugs for cognitive deficits in schizophrenia ([Hashimoto, in press] and [Hashimoto et al., 2007]).

Donepezil is the most widely prescribed drug for Alzheimer's disease ([Blennow et al., 2006] and [Seltzer, 2007]). The main mechanism of action through which it influences cognition and function is presumed to be the inhibition of acetylcholinesterase (AChE) in the brain; however, it has been reported that donepezil binds to sigma receptors in the brain (Kato et al., 1999). Recent studies suggest that sigma-1 receptors have been implicated in the anti-depressive, anti-amnesic and neuroprotective effects of donepezil against mouse-forced swimming test (Maurice et al., 2006), and CO gas-induced (Meunier et al., 2006a) and amyloid β25–35-induced neurotoxicity (Meunier et al., 2006b). Recently, we reported that donepezil, but not physostigmine, significantly potentiated the nerve growth factor (NGF)-induced neurite outgrowth in PC12 cells, and that potentiation of NGF-induced neurite outgrowth by donepezil was significantly blocked by co-administration of the selective sigma-1 receptor antagonist NE-100 (Ishima et al., 2008). Taken together, it is likely that the pharmacological actions of donepezil as both an AChE inhibitor and sigma-1 receptor agonist might contribute to the efficacy of this drug in patients with Alzheimer's disease.

The present study was undertaken to study whether or not sigma-1 receptors play a role in the mechanisms of action of donepezil on cognitive deficits in schizophrenia. First, we examined the binding affinity of donepezil and other AChE inhibitor physostigmine at sigma-1 receptors in the mouse brain. Second, we examined the effects of donepezil and physostigmine on PCP-induced cognitive deficits in mice using NORT. We also examined the effects of the selective sigma-1 receptor antagonist NE-100 (Okuyama and Nakazato, 1996) on PCP-induced cognitive deficits in order to study the role of the sigma-1 receptor in the mechanism of action of donepezil. Third, using the immunohistochemistry, we examined whether or not repeated PCP administration alters the density of sigma-1 receptors in the regions (CA1–3 and dentate gyrus) of mouse hippocampus which might be involved in the PCP-induced cognitive deficits.
2. Results
2.1. Effects of donepezil and physostigmine on [3H](+)-pentazocine binding to mouse brain

It has been reported that donepezil (IC50 = 14.6 ± 0.5 nM) has a high affinity for [3H]DTG binding to sigma receptors (sigma-1 and sigma-2 receptors) whereas physostigmine (IC50 > 10,000 nM) showed no effect (Kato et al., 1999). In this study, we examined the effects of these two AChE inhibitors on [3H](+)-pentazocine binding to sigma-1 receptors since [3H]DTG is not selective for sigma-1 receptors. We found that donepezil had a high affinity (IC50 = 29.1 ± 0.2 nM (n = 3)) for [3H](+)-pentazocine binding to sigma-1 receptors in the mouse brain (Fig. 1). Physostigmine had no affinity for [3H](+)-pentazocine binding to sigma-1 receptors in mouse brain (Fig. 1).


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Fig. 1. Effects of donepezil and physostigmine on [3H](+)-pentazocine binding to mouse brain membranes. Inhibition of [3H](+)-pentazocine binding to mouse brain membranes by donepezil and physostigmine was performed as described in Experimental procedures. The IC50 value of donepezil was 29.12 ± 0.24 nM. Physostigmine was very weak. The data is the mean ± S.E.M. of three experiments done in duplicate.

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2.2. Effects of donepezil on PCP-induced cognitive deficits in mice

In the training session, the exploratory preferences of the all groups were the same. In the retention test session, the exploratory preference of the PCP-treated group was significantly lower than that of the saline-treated group (Fig. 2). PCP-induced cognitive deficits in mice were significantly improved after subsequent subchronic (14 days) administration of donepezil (1.0 mg/kg/day), but not the low dose (0.1 mg/kg/day). In the training session, one-way ANOVA revealed that the exploratory preferences of six groups were not significantly different (F [5,100] = 1.96, p = 0.091) (Fig. 2). However, one-way ANOVA did reveal significant differences in the exploratory preferences of the six groups in the retention test sessions (F [5,100] = 16.05, p < 0.001) (Fig. 2). The post hoc Bonferroni test indicated that the exploratory preference of the PCP plus vehicle-treated group was significantly (p < 0.001) lower than that of the PCP plus donepezil (1.0 mg/kg/day)-treated group, but not of groups treated with PCP plus donepezil (1.0 mg/kg/day)/NE-100 (1.0 mg/kg/day) (Fig. 2). In contrast, PCP-induced cognitive deficits in mice were not improved after subsequent subchronic (14 days) administration of physostigmine (0.25 mg/kg/day). These findings suggest that sigma-1 receptors play a role in the active mechanism of donepezil for PCP-induced cognitive deficits.



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Fig. 2. Effects of donepezil on PCP-induced cognitive deficits in mice. Saline (10 ml/kg) or PCP (10 mg/kg) was administered s.c. for 10 days (once daily on days 1–5, 8–12). Three days (day 15) after the final administration of saline or PCP, vehicle (10 ml/kg), donepezil (0.1 or 1.0 mg/kg), donepezil (1.0 mg/kg) plus NE-100 (1.0 mg/kg), or physostigmine (0.25 mg/kg) was administered i.p. into mice. The treatment was continued for 2 consecutive weeks (once daily on days 15–28). The training session for the novel object recognition test (NORT) was performed 24 h (day 29) after the final administration of vehicle or drugs, and the retention test session was performed 24 h (day 30) after the training session. Values are means ± S.E.M. (n = 10–20). low asterisklow asterisklow asteriskp < 0.001 as compared with PCP-treated group. ###p < 0.001 as compared with PCP + donepezil-treated group.

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Next, we examined the effects of subchronic (14 days) administration of donepezil (1.0 mg/kg/day), physostigmine (0.25 mg/kg/day), or NE-100 (1.0 mg/kg/day) on the exploratory preference in the control mice. As shown in Fig. 3, in both training session and retention session, subchronic administration of these drugs alone did not alter the exploratory preference in the control mice.



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Fig. 3. Effects of subchronic administration of donepezil, physostigmine, and NE-100 in the control mice. Vehicle (10 ml/kg), donepezil (1.0 mg/kg), physostigmine (0.25 mg/kg), or NE-100 (1.0 mg/kg) was administered i.p. into mice for 2 consecutive weeks. The training session for the NORT was performed 24 h after the final administration of vehicle or drugs, and the retention test session was performed 24 h after the training session. Values are means ± S.E.M. (n = 10).

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2.3. Effects of repeated PCP administration on sigma-1 receptors in the mouse brain

Immunohistochemistry revealed that the immunoreactivity of sigma-1 receptors in the region of CA1 (F [1,21] = 0.159, p = 0.006), CA3 (F [1,21] = 0.113, p < 0.001) and dentate gyrus (F [1,21] = 0.011, p = 0.005) of mice treated with PCP (10 mg/kg/day for 10 days) was significantly lower than that of control mice (Fig. 4).



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Fig. 4. Effects of repeated PCP administration on sigma-1 receptors in the mouse hippocampus. Saline (10 ml/kg) or PCP (10 mg/kg) was administered s.c. for 10 days (once daily on days 1–5, 8–12). Three days (day 15) after the final administration of saline or PCP, the mice were perfused. Immunohistochemistry was performed as described in Experimental procedures. Values are means ± S.E.M. (n = 11–12). low asterisklow asteriskp < 0.01, low asterisklow asterisklow asteriskp < 0.001 as compared with the saline-treated group (control).

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3. Discussion

The major findings of the present study are that PCP-induced cognitive deficits could be improved by subsequent subchronic administration of the AChE inhibitor donepezil via sigma-1 receptors. In contrast, we found that the AChE inhibitor physostigmine with no affinity to sigma-1 receptors did not attenuate the PCP-induced cognitive deficits in mice, and that subchronic administration of donepezil or NE-100 did not alter cognition in control mice. Thus, it is unlikely that sigma-1 receptor agonist or antagonist could affect cognition in control mice, consistent with a previous report that sigma-1 receptor agonist fluvoxamine did not affect cognition of control mice (Hashimoto et al., 2007). Taken together, it is likely that sigma-1 receptors play a role in the mechanisms of action of donepezil on PCP-induced cognitive deficits in mice. Recently, we reported that sigma-1 receptor agonists (fluvoxamine, SA4503 and DHEA-sulphate) could attenuate PCP-induced cognitive deficits in mice (Hashimoto et al., 2007). Therefore, it is possible that donepezil would be a potential therapeutic drug for the treatment of cognitive deficits in schizophrenia.

Adjunctive medication to antipsychotic treatment is one approach used to improve several symptoms of schizophrenia. Although some studies have evaluated donepezil as an adjunct to antipsychotic medications in schizophrenic patients, the results have proved inconclusive. Four studies revealed that donepezil shows some cognitive improvement in schizophrenic patients ([Buchanan et al., 2003], [MacEwan et al., 2001], [Risch et al., 2001] and [Chung et al., 2009]); but six double-blind, placebo-controlled trials provided no beneficial effects ([Friedman et al., 2002], [Friedman, 2004], [Tugal et al., 2004], [Freudenreich et al., 2005], [Fagerlund et al., 2007], [Keefe et al., 2008] and [Akhondzadeh et al., 2008]). Interestingly, the donepezil-treated group had significantly greater improvement in the negative symptoms of schizophrenic patients ([Risch et al., 2007] and [Akhondzadeh et al., 2008]), suggesting donepezil as a potential adjunctive treatment strategy for negative symptoms in schizophrenia. Recently, we reported a case of improvement of cognitive deficits in schizophrenic patient by sigma-1 receptor agonist fluvoxamine (Iyo et al., 2008). Taken together, the beneficial effects of donepezil for cognitive deficits in schizophrenic patients are currently inconclusive. Further detailed placebo-controlled studies using a large sample are necessary.

In the present study, we found that repeated PCP administration led to a reduction in sigma-1 receptors in the mouse hippocampus. This is the first investigation to demonstrate that the administration of PCP significantly reduced the density of sigma-1 receptors in the CA1, CA3, and dentate gyrus regions of hippocampus. Recently, Western blot analysis showed that the density of sigma-1 receptors in the frontal cortex and hippocampus was significantly decreased by repeated PCP treatment (Ishima et al., 2009), consistent with the present results. There is evidence that sigma-1 receptors regulate the function of NMDA receptors in the brain ([Hayashi and Su, 2004], [Bermack and Debonnel, 2005], [Hashimoto and Ishiwata, 2006] and [Monnet and Maurice, 2006]). Therefore, it is likely that chronic treatment with the NMDA receptor antagonist PCP might cause the down-regulation of sigma-1 receptors in the brain although the precise mechanisms underlying how repeated PCP administration might modulate sigma-1 receptors in the brains are currently unknown. Further study of the cross-talk between sigma-1 receptors and NMDA receptors in the brain is still necessary.

Postmortem human brain studies on brains from schizophrenic patients have indicated that the density of sigma receptors was lower in the temporal cortex (Weissman et al., 1991), but higher in the superior parietal cortex (Shibuya et al., 1992) than in the control tissue, although chronic neuroleptic treatment may contribute to these differences ([Simpson et al., 1991] and [Hashimoto and London, 1994]). Furthermore, it is also reported that [3H]nemonapride binding to sigma receptors in the caudate of postmortem brain of schizophrenic patients was significantly decreased as compared with control group (Helmeste et al., 1996). Currently, a specific radioligand [11C]SA4503 for imaging sigma-1 receptors in the intact human brain using positron emission tomography (PET) is available ([Ishiwata et al., 2006] and [Ishikawa et al., 2007]). It is, therefore, of great interest to study whether or not sigma-1 receptors are altered in the intact brain of schizophrenic patients. The [11C]SA4503-PET study in the patients with schizophrenia is now in progress.

Endoplasmic reticulum (ER) stress, such as ER Ca2+ depletion, has been reported to be relevant to the pathogenesis of neuropsychiatric diseases such as Alzheimer's disease ([Nakagawa et al., 2000] and [Mattson and Chan, 2001]). Communication between the ER and mitochondrion is important for bioenergetics and cellular survival. Very recently, Hayashi and Su (2007) demonstrated that the ER protein sigma-1 receptor is a Ca2+-sensitive and ligand-operated receptor chaperone at mitochondrion-associated ER membrane. Normally, sigma-1 receptors form a complex at mitochondrion-associated ER membrane with another chaperone, BiP. Upon ER Ca2+ depletion or via agonist stimulation, sigma-1 receptors dissociate from BiP, leading to a prolonged Ca2+ signaling into mitochondria via IP3 receptors These findings suggest that sigma-1 receptors play important roles in the ER-mitochondrial interorganelle Ca2+ signaling and in cell survival (Hayashi and Su, 2007). Furthermore, it has been reported that protein levels of subunits (NR1 and NR2) of NMDA receptors in ER fraction of developing rat cortex were increased after subchronic PCP administration, suggesting that up-regulation may be because of increased synthesis of these subunits (Anastasio and Johnson, 2008). Taken together, it seems that cross-talk between sigma-1 receptors and NMDA receptors in ER may play a role in the cognitive deficits after the repeated PCP administration although a further detailed study is necessary.

In conclusion, the present study suggests that repeated PCP administration might cause the reduction of sigma-1 receptors in the mouse brain, and that agonistic activity of donepezil at the sigma-1 receptors plays a role in the active mechanisms of donepezil on PCP-induced cognitive deficits. Very recently, we have demonstrated a high occupancy of sigma-1 receptors in the human brain after a single oral administration of donepezil (5 or 10 mg) (Ishikawa et al., submitted). Therefore, it is possible that donepezil could potentially be used for the treatment of cognitive deficits of schizophrenia.
4. Experimental procedures
4.1. Animals

Male ICR mice (6 weeks old) weighing 25–30 g were purchased from SLC Japan (Hamamatsu, Shizuoka, Japan). Mice in groups of 4 or 5 were housed in clear polycarbonate cages (22.5 × 33.8 × 14.0 cm) under a controlled 12/12-h light–dark cycle (light from 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM), at 23 ± 1 °C and 55 ± 5% humidity. The mice were given free access to water and food pellets. The experimental procedure was approved by the Animal Care and Use Committee of Chiba University Graduate School of Medicine.
4.2. Drugs

PCP hydrochloride and the selective sigma-1 receptor antagonist NE-100 were synthesized in our laboratory. Donepezil hydrochloride was provided from Eisai Co., Ltd (Tokyo, Japan). Physostigmine hydrochloride and [3H](+)-pentazocine (1.07 GBq/mmol) were purchased from Sigma-Aldrich (St Louis, MO, USA) and PerkinElmer, Inc. (Boston, MA, USA), respectively. Other drugs were purchased from commercial sources.
4.3. Drug administration

Saline (10 ml/kg) or PCP (10 mg/kg expressed as a hydrochloride salt) was administered subcutaneously (s.c.) for 10 days (once daily on days 1–5, 8–12).

In the subchronic (14 days) administration experiment, three days (day 15) after the final administration of saline or PCP, vehicle or drugs were administered i.p. into mice. This treatment was continued for 14 consecutive days (once daily on days 15–28). The training session of NORT was performed 24 h after the final administration, and the retention test session was performed 24 h after the training session. The number of animals (Fig. 2) is control group (n = 20), PCP + vehicle (n = 19), PCP + donepezil (0.1 mg/kg) (n = 19), PCP + donepezil (1.0 mg/kg) (n = 17), PCP + donepezil (1.0 mg/kg)/NE-100 (1.0 mg/kg) (n = 18), and PCP + physostigmine (0.25 mg/kg) (n = 10). The number of animals (Fig. 3) is control group (n = 10), donepezil (1.0 mg/kg) (n = 10), physostigmine (0.25 mg/kg) (n = 10), and NE-100 (1.0 mg/kg) (n = 10).

The doses of drugs used in this study were donepezil (0.1 and 1.0 mg/kg), NE-100 (1.0 mg/kg), and physostigmine (0.25 mg/kg). These doses had been shown to be effective in vivo as reported previously ([Csernansky et al., 2005], [Maurice et al., 2006], [Meunier et al., 2006a], [Meunier et al., 2006b], [Okuyama and Nakazato, 1996], [Hashimoto et al., 2007] and [Senda et al., 1997]). The dose (0.1 mg/kg) chosen for donepezil was selected because this dose was found to induce no effects via sigma-1 receptor mechanisms in vivo (Csernansky et al., 2005).
4.4. Novel object recognition test (NORT)

NORT was performed as previously reported ([Hashimoto et al., 2005a], [Hashimoto et al., 2007] and [Hashimoto et al., 2008]). The apparatus for this task consisted of a black open field box (50.8 × 50.8 × 25.4 cm). Before the test, mice were habituated in the box for 3 days. During a training session, two objects (various objects differing in shape and color but similar in size) were placed in the box 35.5 cm apart (symmetrically), and each animal was allowed to explore in the box for 5 min. The animals were considered to be exploring the object when the head of the animal was facing the object within 2.54 cm of the object or when any part of the body, except for the tail, was touching the object. The time that mice spent exploring each object was recorded. After training, mice were immediately returned to their home cages, and the box and objects were cleaned with 75% ethanol to avoid any possible instinctive odorant cues. Retention tests were carried out at one-day intervals following the respective training. During the retention test each mouse was placed back into the same box in which one of the objects used during training was replaced by a novel one. The mice were then allowed to explore freely for 5 min, and the time spent exploring each object was recorded. Throughout the experiments, the objects were used in a counter-balanced manner in terms of their physical complexity and emotional neutrality. A preference index, i.e., the ratio of the amount of time spent exploring any one of the two objects (training session) or the novel one (retention test session) over the total time spent exploring respective to both objects, was used to measure memory performance.
4.5. [3H](+)-Pentazocine binding to sigma-1 receptors

Binding assays for sigma-1 receptors were performed according to the method published previously ([Hashimoto and London, 1995] and [Narita et al., 1996]). Male ICR mice (25–35 g) were killed by decapitation, and the brains were rapidly removed. The brains were homogenized in 20 volumes of ice-cold 50 mM Tris–HCl (pH 8.0 at 25 °C) with a Polytron homogenizer at setting 5 for 30 s. The homogenate was centrifuged at 48,000 g for 10 min (4 °C). The resulting pellet was resuspended in the buffer and recentrifuged. This procedure was repeated once more. The final pellet was stored at − 80 °C until use. At the day of binding assay, the pellet was suspended in 20 volumes of 50 mM Tris–HCl (pH 8.0 at 25 °C). For assays of sigma-1 receptors, aliquots of crude membranes (approximately 350–400 μg protein) were incubated with [3H](+)-pentazocine (5 nM), drugs (donepezil: 0.3–10,000 nM, physostigmine; 1000 and 10,000 nM), and 50 mM Tris–HCl (pH 8.0 at 25 °C) in a final volume of 0.5 ml for 2 h at 25 °C. After addition of 4 ml of ice-cold buffer, the membranes were rapidly filtered, using a Brandell 24-channel cell harvester (Biochemical Research Laboratories, Gaithersburg, MD, USA), through Whatman GF/B filters pretreated with 0.5% polyethyleneimine for at least 2 h. The filters were washed three times with 4 ml of ice-cold buffer. The radioactivity trapped by the filters was determined by a liquid scintillation counter. Non-specific binding was estimated in the presence of 10 μM NE-100. Specific binding was more than 90% of total binding.
4.6. Immunohistochemistry

Three days after the final administration of saline (10 ml/kg/day for 10 days; days 1–5 and days 8–12) or PCP (10 ml/kg/day for 10 days; days 1–5 and days 8–12) (i.e., on the day 15), the mice were killed with sodium pentobarbital and perfused transcardially with 50 ml of isotonic saline, followed by 50 ml of ice-cold 4% paraformaldehyde in 0.1 mol/l phosphate buffer (PH 7.4). The brains were removed from skulls and postfixed overnight at 4 °C in the same fixative. For the immunohistochemical analysis, 50 μm-thick serial coronal sections of brain were cut in ice-cold 0.01 mol/l phosphate buffer saline (PBS; pH 7.5) with a vibrating blade microtome (VT1000S, Leica Microsystems AG, Wetzlar, Germany). Free-floating sections were treated with 0.3% hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) in 0.1 mol/l phosphate buffer saline (PBS) for 30 min and blocked in PBS containing 0.1% Triton X-100 (PBST), 0.1% BSA and normal rabbit serum for 30 min at room temperature. The samples were then incubated for 24 h at 4 °C with goat anti-sigma-1 receptor antibody (1:50, sc-16203, Santa Cruz Biotechnology, Inc., USA). The sections were washed twice PBS and processed according to the avidin–biotin–peroxidase method (Vectastain Elite ABC, Vector Laboratories, Burlingame, CA, USA). The sections were then reacted for 5 min in a solution of diaminobenzidine (0.25 mg/ml) containing 0.01% H2O2. Alternate sections, incubated in the absence of primary antibody as an immunohistochemical control, showed no immunostaining. The sections were mounted on gelatinized slides, dehydrated, cleared, and coverslipped under Entellan New (Merck K GaA, Damnstadt, Germany).

Quantitative analysis of the hippocampus was performed by image analysis. The optical density was analyzed using a light microscope equipped with a CCD camera (Carl Zeiss, HAL100, Germany) and Scion Image. Images were calibrated to a known optical density gray scale (Kodak step tablet #2). Background optical densities were measured in unlabeled fields from the corpus callosum and subtracted from the raw optical densities of the examined tissue. Eight slices of each region from each mouse were prepared. Average counts from three sections per animal were used.
4.7. Statistical analysis

Data are expressed as means ± S.E.M. Receptor binding data were performed using GraphPad Prism software (GraphPad Software Inc., San Diego, CA). Statistical analysis was performed by using the Student t test or one-way analysis of variance analysis (ANOVA) and the post hoc Bonferroni test. p values less than 0.05 were considered statistically significant.
Acknowledgments

This study was supported in part by grants from the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science, and Technology of Japan (to K.H.).
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#38 Spectre

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 04:49 AM

Here's a follow up on my progress so far. I've been on Piracetam for about 10 days so far, and have noticed a slight change in my cognitive function, but nothing over the top. I do feel as though my logic has slightly improved, along with my attention to detail and communication skills. Speaking feels more fluid and my body feels more "connected" in a sense. I'm currently dosing Piracetam at 2g/day, but I took 4g today to note any potential differences. I've been developing mania lately, which I'm sure is attributed to the Piracetam use (it's probably using up all my choline)

I'm not currently using a choline supplement since I wanted to test out the effects of Piracetam alone before stacking it along with the Huperzine A, but I'm thinking about adding the Huperzine tomorrow to see how the effects work on me. I just don't want the 2 drugs to have opposing effects on my NMDA receptor system and block each other out. I currently have 200mcg pills of the Huperzine, and was thinking about taking them every 2 or 3 days to keep my choline levels optimal, but not excessively high. Do you think that would be a wise idea? I feel a little more sane since taking the Piracetam, and have more confidence in myself to a degree. Any advice or recommendations are greatly appreciated, thank you! :)

#39 bobman

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 07:27 AM

I would recommend Sam-e. Start with 200mg, and work up. Most people tolerate it very well, and it may have some positive side effects on your physiology. Up to 1600mg is standard, although that is a pretty expensive dose. 400mg worked well for me. I couldn't tolerate 600mg.

Also ashwagandha in high dose (meaning at least 900mg of a 4.5% extract like NOW), and gotu kola in a high dose (meaning ingest ~ 9g/day... I chew that a day without a problem, and tea can eat that up all on its own per day). Ashwagandha I'd recommend getting an extract of, Gotu Kola I'd recommend getting in bulk and making tea with honey, pepper. Chewing gotu kola is also good. Finally curcumin, in low doses (don't go crazy, mouse studies used 1% concentration) induces neurogenesis. It's also somewhat documented to have neurogenerative or at least neuro-genesis sustaining effects in the Indian population. They don't take more thant ~4g turmeric (~5% curcumin at most) on average, so I wouldn't take more than that (works out to about 200mg of curcumin a day).

Gotu Kola and Turmeric I'd recommend sourcing from Frontier Coop, or a reseller of Frontier Coop like ediblenature (I use the latter because they have cheap prices, but you can obviously go anywhere). Starwest Botanical also has great Turmeric. Certified Organic is the way to go with these.

ALCAR is another good one, shown to dramatically increase the effects of NGF. I've seen very nice histological studies on it. It works, at least in animal models.

Choline is another one I'd recommend.

Glycine & glutamine combo works well for me for clarity of thought. I take low amounts of the former, about 200-300mg/day. Free form only. Works great. Subtle but it's doing good things.

But I like sticking to the most natural stuff, so I'd recommend Gotu Kola, Turmeric, & Ashwagandha as the backbone, with Choline, Glycine, Glutamine, and especially SAM-E as your acute attack.

Hang in there man, you'll recover. No one thinks they will until they do, and almost always if you try hard enough you'll accomplish your goal. The brain is very pliable, you'll get there.

Edited by bobmann, 18 May 2010 - 07:33 AM.


#40 haha

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 08:25 AM

I would recommend something light like 50micrograms a day for the first week, if you notice any side effects stop and either try again at a lower dose or dont resume taking. I have heard of effects at this dosage but many people are taking far higher doses, work your way slowly up as and where you feel needed, I personally wouldnt use over 500mcg.
Get as much exercise as you can as well and get those antioxidants

#41 Animal

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 03:22 PM

Here's a follow up on my progress so far. I've been on Piracetam for about 10 days so far, and have noticed a slight change in my cognitive function, but nothing over the top. I do feel as though my logic has slightly improved, along with my attention to detail and communication skills. Speaking feels more fluid and my body feels more "connected" in a sense. I'm currently dosing Piracetam at 2g/day, but I took 4g today to note any potential differences. I've been developing mania lately, which I'm sure is attributed to the Piracetam use (it's probably using up all my choline)

I'm not currently using a choline supplement since I wanted to test out the effects of Piracetam alone before stacking it along with the Huperzine A, but I'm thinking about adding the Huperzine tomorrow to see how the effects work on me. I just don't want the 2 drugs to have opposing effects on my NMDA receptor system and block each other out. I currently have 200mcg pills of the Huperzine, and was thinking about taking them every 2 or 3 days to keep my choline levels optimal, but not excessively high. Do you think that would be a wise idea? I feel a little more sane since taking the Piracetam, and have more confidence in myself to a degree. Any advice or recommendations are greatly appreciated, thank you! :)


Do you know what mania is? I seriously doubt you've been 'developing mania' when you claim to be 'feeling a little more sane'. Also your posts don't even have a hint of hypomania in them as far as I can tell. rust me I'm essentially an expert on the manic psyche having personally experienced and witnessed almost every degree of mania and hypomania imaginable; from a moderate increase in sociability to a full blown psychotic episode.

#42 Spectre

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 08:19 AM

Here's a follow up on my progress so far. I've been on Piracetam for about 10 days so far, and have noticed a slight change in my cognitive function, but nothing over the top. I do feel as though my logic has slightly improved, along with my attention to detail and communication skills. Speaking feels more fluid and my body feels more "connected" in a sense. I'm currently dosing Piracetam at 2g/day, but I took 4g today to note any potential differences. I've been developing mania lately, which I'm sure is attributed to the Piracetam use (it's probably using up all my choline)

I'm not currently using a choline supplement since I wanted to test out the effects of Piracetam alone before stacking it along with the Huperzine A, but I'm thinking about adding the Huperzine tomorrow to see how the effects work on me. I just don't want the 2 drugs to have opposing effects on my NMDA receptor system and block each other out. I currently have 200mcg pills of the Huperzine, and was thinking about taking them every 2 or 3 days to keep my choline levels optimal, but not excessively high. Do you think that would be a wise idea? I feel a little more sane since taking the Piracetam, and have more confidence in myself to a degree. Any advice or recommendations are greatly appreciated, thank you! ;)


Do you know what mania is? I seriously doubt you've been 'developing mania' when you claim to be 'feeling a little more sane'. Also your posts don't even have a hint of hypomania in them as far as I can tell. rust me I'm essentially an expert on the manic psyche having personally experienced and witnessed almost every degree of mania and hypomania imaginable; from a moderate increase in sociability to a full blown psychotic episode.


Well, mania in the sense that my anger has been skyrocketing lately. I took 200mcg of Huperzine today (one tablet), and felt a lot better than before, and I didn't get mad at all today. I feel more sane because I'm not feeling delusional or senseless, as I've felt in the past. I feel more level-headed and logical, instead of feeling unstable and crazy.

#43 bobman

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 01:21 AM

Here's a follow up on my progress so far. I've been on Piracetam for about 10 days so far, and have noticed a slight change in my cognitive function, but nothing over the top. I do feel as though my logic has slightly improved, along with my attention to detail and communication skills. Speaking feels more fluid and my body feels more "connected" in a sense. I'm currently dosing Piracetam at 2g/day, but I took 4g today to note any potential differences. I've been developing mania lately, which I'm sure is attributed to the Piracetam use (it's probably using up all my choline)

I'm not currently using a choline supplement since I wanted to test out the effects of Piracetam alone before stacking it along with the Huperzine A, but I'm thinking about adding the Huperzine tomorrow to see how the effects work on me. I just don't want the 2 drugs to have opposing effects on my NMDA receptor system and block each other out. I currently have 200mcg pills of the Huperzine, and was thinking about taking them every 2 or 3 days to keep my choline levels optimal, but not excessively high. Do you think that would be a wise idea? I feel a little more sane since taking the Piracetam, and have more confidence in myself to a degree. Any advice or recommendations are greatly appreciated, thank you! :)


Do you know what mania is? I seriously doubt you've been 'developing mania' when you claim to be 'feeling a little more sane'. Also your posts don't even have a hint of hypomania in them as far as I can tell. rust me I'm essentially an expert on the manic psyche having personally experienced and witnessed almost every degree of mania and hypomania imaginable; from a moderate increase in sociability to a full blown psychotic episode.


People that declare themselves self-assessed experts are usually not. From what I've read of your posts it looks like you have a good grasp on the basic mechanical effects of quite a few psychotropic substances, yet the self-assured jumps you make to clinical manifestations are naive, since not only are the neurological cascades of every psychotropic substance still under investigation, but these cascades have been shown to be greatly variable between substances exhibiting the same - or very similar - clinical presentations. So, more or less, your understanding as a budding young geneticist, is grossly incomplete. However, this discussion is probably best saved for pm.

I doubt you are anything near an expert on the mind of manic people (to claim that there is a generalizable manic psyche is a bit 1940's asylum) and the possibility that you've encountered (nearly) every manifestation of mania is something of a brick to swallow when you've claimed to understand the bio-psychological reasons behind disorder and other, silly things about relevant psychotropic substances. Piracetam can certainly induce a manic response, especially when dosing alongside an ACHe inhibitor and significant quantities of choline. Some of his descriptions also come across as manic, but mania has blurry margins, with no precise definition outside of the scope of Bipolar I manifestations. The term as he's using it is perfectly apt however; it is acceptable to apply it to someone with uncomfortable levels of anxiety, arousal, or racing thoughts (or any combination).

Edited by bobmann, 03 June 2010 - 01:50 AM.


#44 lacaste

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 01:42 PM

To the OP, keep us updated on your progress over time.

I'm 30, and I permanently did something to my brain at the age of 15 when I got high on DXM + marijuana. Before that, I had done DXM several times with no significant after-effects. But this time, it was a horrible experience, including a brief spell of passing out and twitching (according to my friend who had taken the drugs with me).

The next day, I wasn't the same. I still felt like I was mildly high on DXM. The scariest thing was that I still had the visual "static" that is well-known to DXM users. This is certainly the thing I regret doing most in my life.

But by this point, I'm used to it. I might as well have been born this way. Even though I can still see the DXM damage when I look for it -- including the visual "static" hallucinations and brain fog -- I have learned to not pay any attention to it at all. This is probably the #1 piece of advice I can give you. The anxiety over the concept of permanently fucking yourself up is the main thing to overcome. There is a board for people who have messed up their heads from drugs at HPPDonline.com; I have found that forum of some use, but it's largely populated by people who are having trouble coping with the problem. Not many people like myself who have essentially "transcended" the problem spend time there.

The #2 thing I can tell you is that you are still fine. I clearly caused major damage to my brain from drugs. But in a way, this actually motivated me to succeed. I engaged in a program of trying to "get smart": I turned my focus heavily to intellectual pursuits. One of these pursuits was the SAT (US college entrance exam). I basically made it my hobby over a summer to study for the test; I used only free materials found in my public library and sitting around in the bookstore. I was quite obsessed with the test because I saw that it was some proof that my brain was actually still working, and working well at that. The end result was I got so good at the test that I got a near perfect score, putting me in the 99.9% of test-takers. Other intellectual things I have done: graduating with honors from an elite university, winning college debate competitions, becoming financially independent at the age of 30. In some real sense, this was all influenced by trying to overcome the clear mental damage I had done to myself.

I believe the best things you can do for mental improvement are: good sleep, exercise, diet, and in my case particularly: stress management. I believe meditation is worthwhile. You should take a multi-vitamin with a bias towards B-complex vitamins, and you should start taking fish oil daily.

I am interested in this topic of nootropics, including piracetam, however I would be careful before jumping in head first. Many of these drugs are actually powerful and can cause long term changes to your brain; you of all people know what this can mean. Piracetam sounds like a wonder-drug, but you can find some posts on here of people who have taken it long term and have reported something like permanent burn-out, even if subtle. I'm not saying this is what actually happens with most people who take this drug, but it is something to at least take in to account.

I know this is not popular to say here, but my impression is that "nootropics" that actually work are something like brain steroids. They may make you smarter while on them, but have unknown long term consequences. As someone who has already had his brain tinkered with, I would be very cautious of this. Certainly people on methamphetamine will generally do better on mental tests than controls, but we also know that long term this drug has the opposite effect. Obviously the nootropics advocated here are a much different animal than this, but I'm just illustrating the concept. Generally, your brain is designed to always go back to homeostasis, and it will cope with and adapt to any drug that is playing around up there; for almost every drug that has a noticeable mental affect, you are left off neutral or (usually) worse off after chronic use.

The concept that piracetam is essentially non-toxic does not mean that it will not have deleterious -- even if subtle -- effects on the brain long term. The brain is extremely complex and we really understand it a lot less well than we think we do. Marijuana is also essentially non-toxic -- despite widespread use, there is no recorded case of a death caused solely by marijuana -- and I think it's by far the healthiest recreational drug, but I would argue that long term chronic use has negative affects on short term memory and other mental functions. Interesting fact, some of the active ingredients in marijuana are classified as bonafide neuro-protectants.

Still, I do have a box of piracetam pills and I may experiment a little with it. Perhaps it will clear my brain fog, give me back my focus, make me smarter, and have no negative effects at all. That would be great! The problem is, that even if it does this, that is no guarantee that it won't hurt me long term (e.g. methamphetamine example).

Well, this is too long of a post, I should probably make a couple topics out of this. But good luck with everything and keep us posted. It looks like you are experimenting with nootropics, so I would love to hear your experience, particularly as we both likely screwed up similar parts of our brains and may react similarly to the drugs.

Edited by lacaste, 09 June 2010 - 01:46 PM.

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#45 Spectre

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 02:56 PM

To the OP, keep us updated on your progress over time.

I'm 30, and I permanently did something to my brain at the age of 15 when I got high on DXM + marijuana. Before that, I had done DXM several times with no significant after-effects. But this time, it was a horrible experience, including a brief spell of passing out and twitching (according to my friend who had taken the drugs with me).

The next day, I wasn't the same. I still felt like I was mildly high on DXM. The scariest thing was that I still had the visual "static" that is well-known to DXM users. This is certainly the thing I regret doing most in my life.

But by this point, I'm used to it. I might as well have been born this way. Even though I can still see the DXM damage when I look for it -- including the visual "static" hallucinations and brain fog -- I have learned to not pay any attention to it at all. This is probably the #1 piece of advice I can give you. The anxiety over the concept of permanently fucking yourself up is the main thing to overcome. There is a board for people who have messed up their heads from drugs at HPPDonline.com; I have found that forum of some use, but it's largely populated by people who are having trouble coping with the problem. Not many people like myself who have essentially "transcended" the problem spend time there.

The #2 thing I can tell you is that you are still fine. I clearly caused major damage to my brain from drugs. But in a way, this actually motivated me to succeed. I engaged in a program of trying to "get smart": I turned my focus heavily to intellectual pursuits. One of these pursuits was the SAT (US college entrance exam). I basically made it my hobby over a summer to study for the test; I used only free materials found in my public library and sitting around in the bookstore. I was quite obsessed with the test because I saw that it was some proof that my brain was actually still working, and working well at that. The end result was I got so good at the test that I got a near perfect score, putting me in the 99.9% of test-takers. Other intellectual things I have done: graduating with honors from an elite university, winning college debate competitions, becoming financially independent at the age of 30. In some real sense, this was all influenced by trying to overcome the clear mental damage I had done to myself.

I believe the best things you can do for mental improvement are: good sleep, exercise, diet, and in my case particularly: stress management. I believe meditation is worthwhile. You should take a multi-vitamin with a bias towards B-complex vitamins, and you should start taking fish oil daily.

I am interested in this topic of nootropics, including piracetam, however I would be careful before jumping in head first. Many of these drugs are actually powerful and can cause long term changes to your brain; you of all people know what this can mean. Piracetam sounds like a wonder-drug, but you can find some posts on here of people who have taken it long term and have reported something like permanent burn-out, even if subtle. I'm not saying this is what actually happens with most people who take this drug, but it is something to at least take in to account.

I know this is not popular to say here, but my impression is that "nootropics" that actually work are something like brain steroids. They may make you smarter while on them, but have unknown long term consequences. As someone who has already had his brain tinkered with, I would be very cautious of this. Certainly people on methamphetamine will generally do better on mental tests than controls, but we also know that long term this drug has the opposite effect. Obviously the nootropics advocated here are a much different animal than this, but I'm just illustrating the concept. Generally, your brain is designed to always go back to homeostasis, and it will cope with and adapt to any drug that is playing around up there; for almost every drug that has a noticeable mental affect, you are left off neutral or (usually) worse off after chronic use.

The concept that piracetam is essentially non-toxic does not mean that it will not have deleterious -- even if subtle -- effects on the brain long term. The brain is extremely complex and we really understand it a lot less well than we think we do. Marijuana is also essentially non-toxic -- despite widespread use, there is no recorded case of a death caused solely by marijuana -- and I think it's by far the healthiest recreational drug, but I would argue that long term chronic use has negative affects on short term memory and other mental functions. Interesting fact, some of the active ingredients in marijuana are classified as bonafide neuro-protectants.

Still, I do have a box of piracetam pills and I may experiment a little with it. Perhaps it will clear my brain fog, give me back my focus, make me smarter, and have no negative effects at all. That would be great! The problem is, that even if it does this, that is no guarantee that it won't hurt me long term (e.g. methamphetamine example).

Well, this is too long of a post, I should probably make a couple topics out of this. But good luck with everything and keep us posted. It looks like you are experimenting with nootropics, so I would love to hear your experience, particularly as we both likely screwed up similar parts of our brains and may react similarly to the drugs.


Wow, awesome post man, thank you for sharing your experience. I think taking the nootropics have made a positive effect on my mind overall, but over time the effects seem more and more subtle. I took a day off any mind-enhancer yesterday and just felt calm for pretty much the entire day. I don't know if Piracetam is really giving me all the touted effects that other people seem to get from it, but I think it may be due to the fact that I haven't been supplementing with Choline (sure I take Huperzine A every other day but that doesn't seem to have much of an effect on me either, plus I don't like the fact that it's a mild NMDA receptor antagonist in itself). I take Piracetam only once a day, usually in the morning (and I've upped my dose to 4g a day), for all I know my dosing schedule could be the reason why I'm not feeling the effects as well as other people. I'm just hoping that Piracetam is rewiring my NMDA receptor system into a normalized state, so that my memory dysfunctions will completely go away. I feel as though they have been to a degree, but I'll probably have to supplement with Piracetam for a few months to get the desired effects.

I did think about the potential long-term effects of taking Piracetam and other smart drugs. I would generally think that it would help me in the long term, and didn't pay too much attention to the thought that it could produce negative effects in my brain. I didn't know Piracetam could make some people feel burnt out (aside from a Choline deficiency), I obviously still have a lot more research to do in the subject. I may decide to cycle all the stuff and note how I perform after I stop taking it all.

I must mention, that when I was 12 I was diagnosed with manic depression, but at the time my environment was causing my unstable state of mind and uncontrollable hate for the world. I was just a kid at the time and everything was stressing me out. I don't know if I would say that I'm really bi-polar, because I'm able to control myself pretty well in general, but at the same time, I know I'm genetically predisposed to mental illness. I take SAMe every day even though I was diagnosed with bi-polar disorder, and it's never given me negative effects before, and it actually fights off the depression that I've been developing these past recent months extremely well.

Anyway, I will do more research into Piracetam and other nootropics. I'll also note that I'm taking Himalaya Mentat (2 pills a day), but the effects have been subtle at best for me (I started taking it on May 24th). Do you know anything about Mentat, or if the herbs in that product can interact with Piracetam or Huperzine A? I'm taking this stack every day (aside from Huperzine A, which I take every 2-3 days):

- Mentat (2 pills)
- Piracetam (4g)
- SAMe (400mg)
- Niacin (500mg)
- Huperzine A (200mcg)

I will be adding a multi when I find a decent one (no more wal-mart crap), along with fish oil. Is there anything you recommend I remove, or incorporate into the stack? Thanks for your post.

#46 bobman

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 03:13 PM

To the OP, keep us updated on your progress over time.

snip...


Great post.

#47 Mindweaver

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 04:46 AM

Hello everyone.

I'm 18 years old, 2~ years ago I experimented with DXM, after gaining interest in psychedelics through gossip. I was 16 years old, and for 3-4 nights in a row I took a 300mg dose of DXM to hit a "first plateau" trip. Sadly, my research into the safety of the drug was flawed because I did not research the correct amount of time to wait between trips, and most of the information I had researched was biased "it's not that bad" kind of information, from previous users. I didn't acknowledge much of a difference in my cognition, however, I definitely developed a slight case of HPPD. I often found myself in the classroom at school staring at the ceiling design, which had various dots on it, and noticed them moving. I'd also be waiting for the bus and the concrete would be moving, as if I had stared at the "LSD Trip!" video on youtube too long and induced an illusion.

Well, as DXM was a pleasant introduction into psychedelics (because I would smoke pot on it, and it would bring me higher than I had ever been), I didn't really look at it as a smart drug to take, and really only did research that came up with biased results. About 8 months after my first experimentation with DXM, I was going through a rough patch in my life and was on vacation from school, so I considered this an ideal time to "re-open" my mind. The first 3 days of my DXM use were 300mg doses using RoboGels, one of the days was a full bottle of Delsym, and the last day... well, that was THE day that I regret the most. I knew I wouldn't be doing DXM again in my life, and I wanted to go out with a kick, so I dosed with a full Zicam Spray bottle, a full Delsym bottle, and some RoboGels.. I may have hit the 3rd plateau, I really don't know, but I didn't smoke marijuana on it. I woke up the next day and something was terribly wrong.

I felt like I wasn't truly experiencing anything that was going on in my life; I was on auto-pilot. After a month or two of these feelings intensifying, probably due to my acknowledgement of them, I began to investigate the sources of my problems and found that I was not the only one suffering from these detrimental side effects of DXM. I thought, similarly to you, that my brain was permanently "fried." Me, being the control freak that I am, began a journey of recovery that I am still continuing to this day. As an avid pot smoker (numerous occasions of inducing a marijuana high a day, every day, from Junior Year in High School until Freshman year in college) I knew that weed wouldn't help my brain heal, but I couldn't get off of it. It kept me sane, it made me calm when all I could think about was reality testing (touching things around me to see if they're really there, touching my arm, speaking aloud to see if I can hear myself) and it really "chilled me out;" but it did not help the cure. After a year and a half passing, it was literally only until 2 months ago that I really did stop my marijuana use.

Back to my road to recovery.. the first thing I did was research the causes of this depersonalization, and a lot of people who would say Serotonin receptor damage/Serotonin depletion caused the problem. Serotonin, being the neurotransmitter that enables us to interact with the environment, seemed like the obvious case, so I did some research on how to re-up, so to speak, my serotonin. This is the time in my life that I was introduced to supplements/nootropics. 5-HTP was highly recommended, and as soon as I purchased it I was able to realize some heavy-duty effects. I felt more awake, less anxious and gained a confidence that I could really recover from the damage I had done. In addition, I stacked with a product known as "FOCUS FORMULA," which included Vinpocetine, Huperzine-A, DMAE, Ginkgo Biloba, all of which I had known little knowledge other than that they would be helpful in the area of restoring memory and brain function.

Months later, I was getting better. I'd say I was 60% healed, but I was still highly aware of the damage done by DXM. Memories that I had thought were long gone had reappeared, dreaming became a regular activity, sunlight truly defined things around me, and it seemed like I was becoming more intact with the world around me. It may sound stupid, and possible a bump in my progress, but I even experimented with MDMA once or twice (obviously being smarter about spreading out my usage than I had previously done with DXM) and it had helped drastically improve my feelings of realism. I may attribute MDMA's aid to it's ability to repair Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, and I figured I might have been suffering from that or depression, and MDMA's afterglow helped me rid the adverse feelings attributed to those disorders. Maybe it was just a stupid thing to do while trying to recover, but what's done is done.

That last line is also an important factor: what's done is done. You can only improve from where you are right now, you have a choice to either continue repairing, or damage yourself. The damage that has been done is done, and if you want to improve the best thing to do, obviously, is abstain from any drug you come near. I've found that caffeine truly enhances the feelings of depersonalization, and should be avoided (I think this is caused by its ability to stimulate thinking and anxiety, and my anxiety-driven thinking normally leads to reality testing in my mind.. such as "do I feel as depersonalized as I did 5 minutes ago? OMG, I feel it.." and that cycle is a dirty one to get caught up in).

Some big suggestions:

Get a lot of sunlight, I describe the feelings I get when observing the sunlit world as HD-Life! Take 5-HTP as needed, as it will naturally enhance your serotonin levels, which probably have a lot to do with your feelings of unreality and brain damage. Don't freak too much about supplements, as they add to your daily thinking about your problems, which becomes cumulative when thinking about the damage done. I've done a lot of research on Olney's Lesions caused by DXM use, and a lot of facts have shown that primates do not suffer from these "holes of the brain," when induced with DXM, so what you're probably suffering from is severe short-term memory damage, and probably some hippocampus damage, but I'm no expert...

Also, engage in activities that make you happy and challenge you intellectually. One that my friend suggested is the "INTENSITY" workout regime, which lasts 30 days, and will get you in shape, boost all of your neurotransmitter levels naturally, distract you from your problems and chronic thinking, AND potentially heal your brain naturally. All of these things are confidence boosters, and made me realize that even though I had potentially damaged my brain, I was still functioning at a higher level than my peers. SO, in conclusion to this paragraph, engage in activities that will enlighten you and make you feel as if you didn't TOTALLY fuck up, despite your sensory issues.

Finally, I used to read a lot about Piracetam's healing properties to dissociative damage, and that's what brought me to this thread (as I had purchased some prior, and was doing more research). I'm on day 3, and have been "attack" dosing, 3G a day, with CDPCholine, and haven't really experienced much of its effects yet, but I'm optimistic. I will probably cut down on it if I don't realize a significant increase in cognitive function in comparison to my natural healing progress, because that was going pretty well, and I figured since I finally cut marijuana out of my "diet" (lol), it would be a great time to see if Piracetam would help repair the damage done to my memory and visuo-spatial functioning (abilities to form mental pictures of things, as I feel the two things effected most by DXM are my short term, long term and forming of mental images). I will definitely be reporting back in a few weeks to let you know about my progress with Piracetam; I've even heard that after few weeks of use, its effects will be noticed months later, so perhaps I'll abstain in a month or two, as to avoid any dependence (though research has neglected to support any evidence of the developing of a dependence to any of the -racetams, and if it had, I wouldn't have purchased it).

If I remember to add anything throughout the coming weeks, believe me, you'll be reading my posts. I'm also a bit sleepy, and would normally proof read a pseudo-essay like this, so excuse any grammatical errors, and ask any questions you're curious about, I love helping fellow sufferers.

:-D

Edited by Shepard, 25 June 2010 - 05:03 PM.
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#48 Runner

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 06:32 PM

Just a brief note to the original poster: Don't get yourself into a panic about this. Very often 'drug induced' brain damage is all in the mind, if you'll pardon the poorly chosen phrase. If you convince yourself you have a problem, you will have one.

#49 lacaste

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 08:17 AM

Interesting posts Guru. Please keep us updated. You guys can be the guinea pigs and let me know what works :-D .

Guru, I would have to agree that there is something to the visuo-spatial thinking being messed up. I can acutely remember this being very pronounced when high on DXM. It was as if that part of my brain was almost entirely closed off. I remember being in a new neighborhood where I would normally be able to easily visualize how to get home, but at the time I just couldn't. I still managed to make my way home somehow, even though it felt like I was in a totally foreign place, which makes me think I was largely compensating with other parts of my brain, especially as every time I "checked my visual map" it drew a blank.

To this day, when I ponder the drug damage, I notice the visuo-spatial seems to be quite affected. But this also brings up the idea of the plastic brain, and how it compensates for damaged areas. There is extensive research on this. Entirely different parts of the brain can take over when the part of the brain that normally does something is not functioning properly.

#50 lacaste

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 08:22 AM

Just a brief note to the original poster: Don't get yourself into a panic about this. Very often 'drug induced' brain damage is all in the mind, if you'll pardon the poorly chosen phrase. If you convince yourself you have a problem, you will have one.



This is good advice. Anxiety about the damage is actually the worst symptom and the main thing to overcome.

But on a realistic note, I can say from experience that there exists in some people real drug-induced brain damage, it is far from subtle or psychosomatic.

#51 Spectre

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 03:09 AM

Hey guys,

the effects of the Mentat & Piracetam are still subtle at best, I notice slightly better focus and attention but it's definitely nothing over the top. I still take SAMe @ 400mg every day..I think the Piracetam isn't giving me very noticeable effects since I'm not taking anything else with it (ie: a choline supplement). What would you guys recommend I add to my current stack? I take Huperzine A only occasionally, every 3-5 days at 200mcg.

I was thinking about adding Lion's Mane and ALCAR..would this be a good idea?..I want to increase my intelligence and I've done some research regarding NGF being promoted with Lion's Mane. I also want something to boost my mood, and was looking into Theanine. If this would be a good idea to add into my stack, where could I get them for a really good price? (Preferably in bulk, and my funds are extremely limited at the moment).

All help is appreciated :)

#52 HighCommand42

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 02:57 PM

About 2 years ago I was 18 and had just graduated. I had never taken drugs before, but decided to try pot one day because I was bored. I fell in love with it and soon did some research and learned that weed was one of the safest drugs out there. At that time I had maybe two problems. I had always struggled with reading and could never remember just about anything I read. Also I had OCD. When I smoked pot my OCD went away completely but obviously my memory and concentration worsened. So I kept smoking for multiple reasons, mostly because it was beneficial. I loved the euphoric effects that made everything more enjoyable. I felt like I had been missing out on something magical my whole life. So after a few months I came across harder drugs. I wanted to stay with weed and nothing else but curiosity got the better of me. I thought I would be safe to try these occasionally. So soon I was using hallucinogens...2CI, LSD, ecstacy, shrooms, etc. So basically one day I made a horrible decision to take two boxes of ccc's with 600 mg of DXM or dextromorphan to trip. Basically the active ingredient in cough syrup is a dissociative. I was stupid to not research the damage it could do to the liver or brain, but did it anyway. I had a very spiritual experience which was on a whole different level than any other drug I tried, since DXM is a powerful dissociative. I was tripping for 2 days and after it wore off I felt like I was returning to reality and everything was perfect. Mentally and physically all was perfect. There was no other word to describe it. Then the feeling wore off after a day and I felt like my vision was screwed up somehow. Weeks, months passed and I definitely noticed that my vision seemed to be permanently damaged or maybe altered. I had a job but got sick of it and quit. So for the next year I would sit around, do drugs, and play video games. My vision was getting slowly worse. I told everyone once my vision was fixed I would get a job and go to college, but not before it was fixed. I'm still not sure if the DXM caused the vision to worsen or continued use of drugs did. I fell into a downward spiral of problems. The worse my vision got, the worse my mood and concentration got. I felt very anxious all the time. I also felt confused. I had a very happy life until the vision problem started back in 2008. I had 20/20 vision my whole life. Then I started having double vision, nystagmus and peripheral vision loss immediately after dxm. I started having a massive amount of mental problems that I never had before. Anxiety, depression, delirium, panic attacks, mood swings, feeling detached from reality, etc. I could not pay attention to anything or learn new things and my memory was gone. And the worse my vision got the worse my mind got. The first eye doctor said I had convergence insufficiency and prescribed pencil push-up exercises. My vision worsened. Then he prescribed prism lenses that only worsened my vision. I went to my doctor to try and treat my mental problems, which at the time was just concentration. (My problems were only at their early stages then.) I was taking Vyvanse for concentration, but it did not help. So as everything worsened I was referred to other types of doctors. I had been to optometrists, psychologists, psychiatrists, neurologists, neuro-opthamologists, had MRI's, blood tests and no success. Even went to the Mayo clinic. I have been on antidepressants, benzos, mood stabilizers, antipsychotics, stimulants, pretty much everything. I hated medications and hated the thought of glasses. Both were failing me. Everything was getting worse to the point where I was suicidal and I needed weed because nothing else helped alleviate symptoms. At the same time I didn't enjoy weed anymore. I couldn't read or drive and was too screwed up to even get a job. I went to 2 different psych wards, but all they did was prescribe horrible meds. I thought I was stuck with brain damage and my life would be hell until I died. So I found out that vision therapy was an option for my vision problem (convergence insufficiency), a problem caused by the brain and eyes not working together. My eyes were physically working fine. I found a developmental optometrist that started me on vision exercises for an hour every day. He said it would take a couple months to see improvements. I did okay for the first couple weeks, but then I got very impatient because nothing was improving. I lost hope because this was the only thing left to try and I did not have the patience and felt very angry about my situation. So a year and a half after the only time I ever took DXM, I decided to take it again and almost attempted suicide. I thought if DXM caused my problems, maybe doing it again would somehow reverse them in some crazy way. I went into the woods with two bottles of waltussin (DXM) and took them. I had the scariest trip of my life and all my problems were at their peak. I believed I was in hell. My visual symptoms were a hundred times worse and I could barely think at all. My parents had the cops looking for me but they never found me as I walked home after almost 10 hours in the woods alone. I was still tripping when I arrived, and was willing to take the risk of being caught if it meant laying down and being safe. My parents were horrified. I went into my room and wanted to lay on my bed, sleep, and sit there until the effects wore off. My parents had called the cops. They came and took me to the hospital while I was tripping hard. It was the scariest point of my life. I was lying on the hospital bed feeling a whole new level of bad. I didn't want to live any more. They stuck an IV in me and I layed there for hours. It was the darkest point of my life. I felt completely alone and cold and had nobody to talk to. Suddenly, within an hour it happened. Keep in mind this is the second time I did DXM, one and a half years after the first. The returning to reality part was taking place but much more powerfully this time. I saw perfectly, not even a slight problem with my vision. My spacial awareness was off the charts. I could observe everything in the room and think clearly. I literally thought I died and was in heaven. I was filled with more happiness than I had ever experienced in 19 years. My concentration, memory, and mood were practically reversed or reset. I had no vision or mental problems. It was all gone. I felt more alive that I had my entire life. Over a year of mental problems and vision problems that doctors couldn't help were gone over night. I felt reborn. The next two weeks were the most spiritual days of my life. I felt so connected to everything. My vision doctor even said that the shortest amount of time my severe vision problems would improve was after 2 months of therapy. But I had found a loophole. It happened overnight. I was completely healed and had zero problems at all. As soon as my vision improved my mental problems did too, so they are definitely related somehow. It was a miracle that I had went from suicidal to the happiest I have ever been overnight. This feeling of perfection lasted for two weeks then diminished over time. I first perceived it as something supernatural it was that powerful of an experience but of course it was just the drug that somehow altered my brain, nothing supernatural about it, just a huge discovery. Everyone is in shock because they don't understand how a drug so dangerous and harmful could have somehow fixed my vision and all my mental disorders simultaneously. Not only fixed them but improved dramatically to where I could read five times faster and had a good memory and was super happy no matter what happened. I could pay attention to every little detail around me. Everything was improved! My vision problem wasn't physical, my eyes are working fine. My brain had something wrong with it that was causing the vision problems. But if I knew what part of my brain was affected, how it was affected, and what else other than DXM can fix this part of the brain. Even my doctors are confused and don't know what fixed it.. I saw perfectly and instead of being depressed everything turned out extremely fun and interesting. I didn't even need weed because I constantly felt high even though I wasn't on any drugs. I felt the best I have ever felt, euphoric and alive and free of problems. The funny thing is that for two weeks this lasted, long after the drug wore off. How did a drug like DXM fix my vision and mind simultaneously and keep it that way? Why did this last for 2 weeks but fade away after that. The first time I did dxm I remember feeling very amazing after effects when I was returning to reality that lasted a few hours. But for some reason a year and a half later when I did dxm it lasted for 2 weeks. That time though I had more mental and vision problems, so when they all were healed at the exact same time, it felt like a new experience. I felt more alive than I ever have, I felt more connected to reality than I ever had in my entire life. I felt way happier that time but I have no clue why it lasted for 2 weeks or what about DXM causes this alteration of consciousness and my vision. So the next few weeks I felt like my problems went from solved, to back to feeling normal, to declining again. Slowly everything worsened and I am back to where I started pretty much. I am very concerned about my vision. The fact that my severe vision and psychological problems that lasted for over a year and were gone within an hour is mind blowing. I was desperate to try everything to fix those problems over that year and a half. I thought hallucinogens would cure my problems, but they just worsened them. Eventually I tried to do what the doctors wanted and tried many things. Prism glasses, vision therapy, for my vision. The list of things I have been prescribed is pretty long. Vyvanse, Klonopin, Abilify, Seroquel, Lithium, Zyprexa, Prosac, Lexapro, Risperadal, etc. So basically I'm trying to say that none of these street drugs or meds helped my problems at all. DXM was the only thing that not only fixed everything for 2 weeks but perfected everything. DXM pretty much transformed all my problems into their polar opposites if that makes sense. Like seeing double to seeing one, feeling anxious to feeling euphoric, bad memory to good, good peripheral vision, good reading comprehension, suicidal thoughts to treasuring every moment. When my peripheral vision is good, or my spacial awareness, it seemed like that was the root problem to everything else visually and mentally. I could observe everything around me simultaneously. So now I am dealing with these problems again. I have been smoking marijuana regularly to deal with my problems. If only I could figure out what is causing my vision problems then I can find a solution. Or what part of my brain is causing this. I know that DXM affects the brain a certain way, which may be beneficial in figuring out the exact cause and solution. This should be researched though. I will seek further visual care, and I strongly believe that treating my mind will do nothing but mask the true problem because it seems the main problem is vision. My vision and mental problems went away at the exact same time. Right now I feel very disoriented and my peripheral vision isn't good. I can hardly function normally. I have virtually no memory and I can't pay attention at all. All I know is that when my vision is good, everything is good. But in order to fix my vision, hopefully NMDA receptors are the answer. There is no reason to live like this and accept it and do nothing. I experienced perfect brain function. Never in a million years did I think I would ever feel normal again, but then I was able to feel a 1000 times better than normal. While I don't expect to attain the DXM-induced aftereffect of happiness, I expect to return back to normal brain functioning one day. So I found a loophole if the doctor said it would take 2 months to see improvement and everything improved 100% in less than an hour after DXM. So why did this feeling of perfection and connection to reality last 2 weeks and fade away, but the other times I used DXM this lasted a few hours only? Any advice would be appreciated. To the OP, we may have different symptoms and situations, but I believe we will have the same solution. A permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Edited by HighCommand42, 24 June 2010 - 03:07 PM.


#53 Mindweaver

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 03:25 PM

There's a good chance that prior to your last trip (when you went to the hospital) you had the same 'vision,' cognition and memory that you did after, but the horrifying DXM trip put you in such a bad place, that anything near what you had before would seem like bliss. It's like.. imagine going to hell, being there for a while and then being given a chance to live as a homeless person. The homeless person's life must feel great compared to hell, because it was hell. BTW, doing MORE DXM would never 'fix' you, ever. It's a dirty drug, I wouldn't even consider it "hard" like you did. Just try not to think about it so much. Derealization and the mental issues you describe are all about obsessive/chronic thinking and reality-testing. You say you had OCD? That's probably very much so manifesting in your feelings/thought processing about having brain damage.

In addition, weed always made my vision worse when I was high, and for weeks after until the drug wasn't in my system anymore, so I would stop smoking. As far as DXM-induced HPPD, yeah, I suffered the same thing, plus probably just as bad/if not worse depersonalization/derealization than what you're describing. Do some research on this website on what could help, particularly this thread (you'll come across my story in here) and you'll probably come across some lovely advice.

I just got contact lenses 6 days ago, and they're incredible! Why haven't you tried these?!

Edited by Guru, 24 June 2010 - 03:27 PM.


#54 HighCommand42

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 10:35 PM

I really can't stress how severe my problems are, you can't possibly make it go away by not thinking about it. I think about it 24/7 because it has become my whole reality. No, contacts are not helpful for my visual diagnosis, convergence insufficiency. I have 20/20 vision, my vision problem is neurological. Glasses will not help me. I can't even listen to someone talk and pay attention, I forget everything instantly. I feel like my brain has almost completely shut down, when I try to think my mind is blank. In fact, I can't watch movies and remember them at all, it sucks. I get no enjoyment out of anything unless I am on drugs. If I don't find an answer, my life is over. I feel so detached from reality, all I want is to fix my spacial awareness, then all my problems will be gone. I would never feel suicidal or have panic attacks if I felt like I did on those glorious days of DXM enlightenment.

#55 Spectre

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 11:41 PM

I really can't stress how severe my problems are, you can't possibly make it go away by not thinking about it. I think about it 24/7 because it has become my whole reality. No, contacts are not helpful for my visual diagnosis, convergence insufficiency. I have 20/20 vision, my vision problem is neurological. Glasses will not help me. I can't even listen to someone talk and pay attention, I forget everything instantly. I feel like my brain has almost completely shut down, when I try to think my mind is blank. In fact, I can't watch movies and remember them at all, it sucks. I get no enjoyment out of anything unless I am on drugs. If I don't find an answer, my life is over. I feel so detached from reality, all I want is to fix my spacial awareness, then all my problems will be gone. I would never feel suicidal or have panic attacks if I felt like I did on those glorious days of DXM enlightenment.


The after effects of DXM have been a nightmare for me even years afterward..but I've slowly been healing my mind these past couple of months, I believe Piracetam has been helping me a lot in terms of NMDA receptor recovery. I'm sure that once I combine it with ALCAR I will see much more pronounced effects, and if I were you, I would try this combo out for a few weeks and see how it starts affecting your mind. I know how horrendous it feels to experience derealization from DXM, it's been a very hard struggle to deal with, but if I had never gone through all these negative drug experiences, I would not know nearly as much about brain chemistry, psychology, and nootropics that I do now..and I think after using these nootropics for an extended period of time, I will have better brain function than before I even touched drugs.

I would definitely advise against ever using DXM again, even if it gave you a temporary fix to your issues, it will definitely not heal your brain..it will only further damage it. Dissociative drugs are some of the worst drugs a person could take..you need something that will heal your NMDA receptor system, along with your dopamine receptors. I'm still experimenting with nootropics and I will report how adding ALCAR to my stack affects my thought processes.

#56 Mindweaver

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 03:51 AM

Spectre, I'm surprised you haven't responded to my posts in this thread, we're in like.. the exact same boat lol. Wish there was a better way to directly contact you, to keep up to date with eachother's progress.. read my posts above^

#57 Spectre

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 06:41 PM

Spectre, I'm surprised you haven't responded to my posts in this thread, we're in like.. the exact same boat lol. Wish there was a better way to directly contact you, to keep up to date with eachother's progress.. read my posts above^


Hey Guru, I just sent you a PM if you would like to contact me directly. I just ordered some ALCAR and St. John's Wort last night from purebulk, so hopefully I'll have it at my house by monday. I'm adding ALCAR into my stack since all the research pretty much suggests it's a wonder-supplement in a sense, not to mention I'm not even taking a choline source with my Piracetam, and apparently Piracetam has a synergistic effect with ALCAR. I also read this when looking for information online:

"ALC rejuvenates and increases the number of N-Methyl-D-Aspartate Receptors (NMDA Receptors) in the Brain [even a single dose of ALC increases the number of functional NMDA Receptors]"

"ALC improves the quality of Sleep and reduces the quantity of Sleep required."

If those last 2 statements are true then this truly is for me..anything to help me sleep better would be awesome! (I'm a really light sleeper, almost anything will wake me up in the middle of the night). I used to take melatonin but it never worked, and would make me feel really groggy when I woke up (almost like a hangover). But I took 3mg last night and it actually feels more like it should, so I guess my brain is doing a lot of rewiring lately (normalizing in a sense)..I was really surprised that it let me sleep better this time around..but it's nothing over the top. I just want to sleep like when I was a kid again, to where I would wake up and actually feel good.

Since ALCAR apparently rejuvenates and increases the amount of NMDA receptors, that would be a reason for us both to take it in itself. I've seen some minor improvement since taking Piracetam, but I can't wait to add ALCAR to the mix and see how much better off I will be, I can't wait for my package to get to the house!

P.S. How many people on here have experience with St. John's Wort? I'm looking for a mood lift and I've heard some good things about it. I've taken a product called "St. John's Positive Thoughts" a couple times and noticed a much better state of mind (even though I was diagnosed with Bi-Polar disorder, which I think is really isn't the case with me anymore since I've successfully been supplementing with SAMe @ 400mg/day for a couple months without an issue). It almost felt as if I was on a light cannabis high but without the short-term memory dysfunctions or crazy thoughts.

Edited by Spectre, 25 June 2010 - 06:44 PM.


#58 Spectre

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 11:04 PM

Bump..

What would you guys recommend as a great overall mood booster? Would ALCAR & St. John's Wort probably exhibit mood-boosting effects? I'm tired of feeling fatigued and depressed all the time..SAMe has been somewhat helping for my depression but I want to feel actual happiness again.

#59 Spectre

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 01:57 AM

Bump again..

I just did some research on "Hyperforin" one of the chemicals in St. John's Wort, and found out that it's an NMDA receptor antagonist, now I feel like a complete idiot for ordering 100 grams of this stuff..was it a waste of money? I don't want St. John's Worth to negatively affect my brain in any way, and cause any memory problems that I'm currently trying to fix..what would you advise?

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#60 bobman

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 05:17 AM

Bump again..

I just did some research on "Hyperforin" one of the chemicals in St. John's Wort, and found out that it's an NMDA receptor antagonist, now I feel like a complete idiot for ordering 100 grams of this stuff..was it a waste of money? I don't want St. John's Worth to negatively affect my brain in any way, and cause any memory problems that I'm currently trying to fix..what would you advise?


I'm not familiar with St. John's Wort, but I can tell you that before freaking out you should research how it actually inhibits NMDAR signaling. If it, competitively or non-competitively, binds to glutamate or glycine sites on NMDA receptors then it will very likely cause brain damage. However I very much doubt it does this. Most likely it inhibits NMDA signaling by a inhibition of pre-synaptic cation release or indirectly through upregulation of some neurotransmitter levels which results in a homeostatic decrease in NMDA signaling. For instance, extracellular GABA levels are inverse to extracellular glutamate levels (meaning GABA indirectly inhibits NMDAR signaling,,,GABA is metabolized from glutamate). I may be wrong about this, but I believe SSRI's upregulate NMDA receptor expression, which necessarily means that it inhibits some version of NMDA signaling. SSRI's are relatively benign (meaning you won't have wide-spread cell death resulting from long tse), and since St. John's Wort upregulates serotonin signaling it may have a similarly benign regulatory mechanism on NMDA.

It's worth noting that St. John's Wort has been safely used for millenia, with a side effect profile essentially about as severe as aspirin, which is something that cannot be said for any psychotropic pharmaceutical. I wouldn't worry, but I'd do the research.

Edited by bobmann, 27 June 2010 - 05:26 AM.





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